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Whitmarsh; "it was not doing those things that meant that Fernando left us." [split]


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#251 Santosdf

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 15:46

FA is a great driver, maybe the best today, but :
*Masas's gearbox change
*"Fernando is faster than you"
* Piquet crashing on purpose"

FA doesn't need these kind of things IMO,because they will be remembered as much as his championships

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#252 schubacca

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 15:47

FA is a great driver, maybe the best today, but :
*Masas's gearbox change
*"Fernando is faster than you"
* Piquet crashing on purpose"

FA doesn't need these kind of things IMO,because they will be remembered as much as his championships


Heck, I think that he is the best on the grid right now.

Still...

#253 keeppari

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:07

Witmarsh comment translated: had we done those things we would have probably kept the best driver in current F1 and have three or four World championships under our belt by now. But we are what we are, and we have always done things this way.


You talking about WCC's or what? After all, Alonso got beaten in 2007 by Hamilton who was a rookie back then. They kept the better one of the two and won in 2008.

#254 Vesuvius

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:11

Alonso would have won the 2007 title if he hadn't binned it in the rain at Fuji...


And Hamilton would have not driven out from the track at China and Kimi without the reliability problems of the car...so it can go on and on.

#255 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:42

Alonso would have won the 2007 title if he hadn't binned it in the rain at Fuji...

Or if he would not have gone off track so many times in the very same way in Canada...

#256 03011969

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:48

FA blackmailed them to giving him #1 status.

Any evidence to back up that claim?

But that is not the Macca way.

You still fall for that lie? Macca has had and has used team orders in the past.



Edited by 3011969, 21 November 2012 - 16:50.


#257 RA2

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 17:39

DC Spa 1998

#258 schubacca

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:02

Any evidence to back up that claim?


You still fall for that lie? Macca has had and has used team orders in the past.


Spygate: Taken from Wikipedia

The 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix was a controversial weekend for McLaren; Alonso held Hamilton up in the pit lane during qualifying, denying Hamilton a chance to record a final lap time. TV pictures showed Ron Dennis angrily throwing his headphones down as Alonso pulled out of the pits, and after the session was over he was then shown having a serious conversation with Alonso's trainer. On the morning of the race (August 5), Alonso met Ron Dennis in his motorhome and allegedly threatened to send his email exchanges with McLaren test driver Pedro de la Rosa and Coughlan to the FIA. According to Max Mosley, Ron Dennis informed him of the conversation and told Mosley that the threat was an empty one, "There’s no information, there’s nothing to come out; I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you.” Mosley subsequently retracted the implication that Dennis had lied.[26]

The source was from Autosport

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/62438

Regarding TO, sure Macca have used it. However, it is not their official policy is it?

I got nothing against TO. I don't particularly like the blackmailing part though.....

Once again, FA appears to be more mature. He is the best driver on the grid for me. I just will not pretend that 2007 did not happen.



#259 Devero

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:05

Graham Hill, Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda, Nelson Piquet, Alain Prost, Michael Schumacher...


Damon Hill too

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#260 Devero

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:11

Alonso`s own summary on 2007 and related accusations is the following:

Never requested No.1 status but couldn`t accept being No.2
It would have been good to have any clear rules within the team towards drivers management but there were no rules
Ron is a liar



#261 e34

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:17

Good post.

I do wonder what is driving Martin Whitmarsh to be so critical of so many things. You don't hear the other team bosses being as critical as he is atm. Nothing lasts forever in F1 and no-one has a right to remain at the front simply because they have consistently been around the front end of the grid for so long. Losing Hamilton, paying for customer engines, taking on a pay driver (Perez is brininging £'s into the team), most likely 3rd in the WCC (reduced income for 2013), Perez not being fit (McLaren's words), Perez a risk (-"-), etc, and MW seemingly under pressure and spouting forth on things that to be honest he shouldn't be. I hope we're not seeing the start of a gradual decline but I fear we might be. As you say and others have said, they haven't won that many championships in the recent past.


The comments about Hamilton leaving and maybe regretting it, and about Perez new challenges seemed OK to me when he made them. This one on FA, however, does seem to be out of place. Mainly because MW could have made it after Germany 2010 and he would have been right (unnecessarily right, one could say), but as somebody said before, it is highly doubtful that anything remotely similar to the gearbox affair happened in 2007. So in a way it does seem that MW is strangely trying to reaffirm McLaren's past practices.

I say strangely because not so long ago, he said something along the lines that maybe they haven't managed the Alonso affair properly, meaning (at least as I understood it) not that Alonso was right, but that the situation could have been defused had the team acted more smartly. But it is always easier to be sincere about your past mistakes when you have a safe future before you than when you are on shaky ground.

It is true that after the not so friendly split between McLaren and Mercedes, McLaren situation in F1 seems a bit more difficult. They no longer have Daimler financial muscle on their side, they have lost one of the best drivers, the development of the future Mercedes engine won't be focused on them, their new driver is basically an unknown quantity...

MW may be feeling the heat, but to what extent did he start the fire? Leaving aside the FA departure, which happened too long ago to have a bearing in the current situation, the problems McLaren is suffering today stem, IMO, from their split with Mercedes. I have the impression that McLaren bit off more than it could chew by suddenly parting ways with Mercedes, against Mercedes will, and that they are now more focused in succeding with their road car division than in their F1 results. I seriously doubt that if they had had their attention focused in renewing Hamilton contract, Hamilton would have left they way he did. And eventually, the added effect of losing Daimler (with the funding and the free engines it provided), losing Hamilton, having to pay attention to a road car division and having an unproven new driver who brings a lot of financing, but who is way less interesting from a PR point of view (and having Hamilton driving Mercedes supercars, as opposed to McLaren supercars, may have a negative influence in the road car division) may be a bit too much. And they may be getting a bit nervous.

In any case, I don't believe that MW had the last word on any of those issues.

#262 Santosdf

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:43

MW may be feeling the heat, but to what extent did he start the fire? Leaving aside the FA departure, which happened too long ago to have a bearing in the current situation, the problems McLaren is suffering today stem, IMO, from their split with Mercedes. I have the impression that McLaren bit off more than it could chew by suddenly parting ways with Mercedes, against Mercedes will, and that they are now more focused in succeding with their road car division than in their F1 results. I seriously doubt that if they had had their attention focused in renewing Hamilton contract, Hamilton would have left they way he did. And eventually, the added effect of losing Daimler (with the funding and the free engines it provided), losing Hamilton, having to pay attention to a road car division and having an unproven new driver who brings a lot of financing, but who is way less interesting from a PR point of view (and having Hamilton driving Mercedes supercars, as opposed to McLaren supercars, may have a negative influence in the road car division) may be a bit too much. And they may be getting a bit nervous.

In any case, I don't believe that MW had the last word on any of those issues.

Sergio Perez is not bringing any money

#263 schubacca

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:57

Alonso`s own summary on 2007 and related accusations is the following:

Never requested No.1 status but couldn`t accept being No.2
It would have been good to have any clear rules within the team towards drivers management but there were no rules
Ron is a liar


Yeah, but FA was throwing tantrums in the pitlane when it was LH's turn.

FA wanted and still wants #1 status. There is nothing wrong with that.

Why did he threaten to send the emails to the FIA? Blackmail is the answer I am afraid.

Anyways, this is old news....

#264 Mika Mika

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 19:13

Alonso`s own summary on 2007 and related accusations is the following:

Never requested No.1 status but couldn`t accept being No.2
It would have been good to have any clear rules within the team towards drivers management but there were no rules
Ron is a liar


He's a liar because Alonso said so? Because Alonso has a track record of truthfulness!!!

#265 Devero

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 19:16

Yeah, but FA was throwing tantrums in the pitlane when it was LH's turn.


If there are no rules, there can`t be turns. :wave:

FA wanted and still wants #1 status. There is nothing wrong with that.


I want a lot of things myself, which does not directly mean that I demand them from somebody.
Please provide at least link to the news where Alonso declared he wanted that status.

Why did he threaten to send the emails to the FIA? Blackmail is the answer I am afraid.


He was treated badly in the team, primarlily by his boss and requested to release him from the contract for 2008-2009.
Ron rejected that.
Hence what reason could have kept Alonso to carry on keeping quietly the evidence of utter crime and risk with his repuatation and super-license of F1 driver?

Edited by Devero, 21 November 2012 - 19:18.


#266 the9th

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 19:21

Whitmarsh is missing Alonso right now but I think he did well in signing Perez. Time will tell.

#267 Mika Mika

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 19:33

I want a lot of things myself, which does not directly mean that I demand them from somebody.
Please provide at least link to the news where Alonso declared he wanted that status.


Go watch the 2007 season review. In the us GP Phil Pru sayes that Alonso demanded LH move over...

#268 Devero

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 20:08

Go watch the 2007 season review. In the us GP Phil Pru sayes that Alonso demanded LH move over...


Phil Pru is not a reliable source in this and certainly he is not Alonso.
Besides Alonso raced for 3 other teams: Minardi, Renault and currently for Ferrari.
What season review I should watch to check relevant quotes from those 3 respective teams personnel?
And finally, where is the clear Alonso`s quote on an any requests for No.1 status?

#269 Devero

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 20:11

He's a liar because Alonso said so?


This fact was well documented by the FIA during 2007 spy saga  ;)


#270 Fontainebleau

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 20:26

Any evidence to back up that claim?


Spygate: Taken from Wikipedia

The 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix was a controversial weekend for McLaren; Alonso held Hamilton up in the pit lane during qualifying, denying Hamilton a chance to record a final lap time. TV pictures showed Ron Dennis angrily throwing his headphones down as Alonso pulled out of the pits, and after the session was over he was then shown having a serious conversation with Alonso's trainer. On the morning of the race (August 5), Alonso met Ron Dennis in his motorhome and allegedly threatened to send his email exchanges with McLaren test driver Pedro de la Rosa and Coughlan to the FIA. According to Max Mosley, Ron Dennis informed him of the conversation and told Mosley that the threat was an empty one, "There’s no information, there’s nothing to come out; I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you.” Mosley subsequently retracted the implication that Dennis had lied.[26]

The source was from Autosport

Or, in other words: there is no evidence whatsoever, and I will go as far as to say that Ron Dennis has never publicly stated that he was blackmailed by Alonso.

I am convinced that they both had a heated discussion, in which nasty things were said by both parties, that they soon regretted, and for which they apologised - as per Dennis's comments that he had Alonso's excuses within 30 mins through his manager (Alonso himself was getting ready for the race, and apologised in person once it was over). In my book, that is by far not blackmailing.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 21 November 2012 - 20:31.


#271 kpchelsea

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 20:34

ALO last WDC was in 2006. So what?




I disagree!
How can he learn to win the WDC when he is actually in front of the 2xWDC in the first place? did he have to let him pass(or do a MASSA) whenever ALO was behind him?
I guarantee you, if HAM was #2 in 2007, he would have never won a WDC!
Nowadays, many new drivers careers are destroyed thanks to this flawed logic of the #2 because they need to pay their dues.
#1 and #2 must be earned only on track, not through politics and shabby practices.



Were Senna or Vettel "slowed" down when they showed to their team they had the pace to beat the best? NO.
Did you want McLaren to stop HAM? because it was the only way they could have done to give the #1 to ALO. I'm glad McLaren didn't, otherwise HAM would have become another "Piquet Jr".

No he would have left the team

#272 e34

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 20:43

Sergio Perez is not bringing any money


Allegedly he has the financial backing of Carlos Slim. I am not saying, at all, that he is a paydriver or that having the financial support of Carlos Slim was the main reason behind McLaren's hiring of Sergio Perez. And in any case, I said it as a positive feature of hiring Perez. If he really does not atract any big sponsor, then all the worse for McLaren, because if I am not wrong, vodafone is leaving.

#273 kpchelsea

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 20:56

Go watch the 2007 season review. In the us GP Phil Pru sayes that Alonso demanded LH move over...



Phil Pru is not a reliable source in this and certainly he is not Alonso.
Besides Alonso raced for 3 other teams: Minardi, Renault and currently for Ferrari.
What season review I should watch to check relevant quotes from those 3 respective teams personnel?
And finally, where is the clear Alonso`s quote on an any requests for No.1 status?

I guess Alonso was just waving at the pits to say "hi guys, how are you doing?"

#274 four1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 21:20

Let's see:

In 2007, the sport fines McLaren $ 100 million for cheating, spying and being dishonest.

In 2012, Whitmarsh is trying to convince the sport how fair McLaren was in 2007 by their equal treatment of their drivers.

Mmmmhhh. :drunk:

I suppose $ 100 million can buy you a lot of talking time. You go MW, get your money's worth (but it might be wise to avoid talking about 2007).

BTW, is Coulthard going to write his biography soon? That might be an interesting read.

#275 britishtrident

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 23:29

Let's see:

In 2007, the sport fines McLaren $ 100 million for cheating, spying and being dishonest.

In 2012, Whitmarsh is trying to convince the sport how fair McLaren was in 2007 by their equal treatment of their drivers.

Mmmmhhh. :drunk:

I suppose $ 100 million can buy you a lot of talking time. You go MW, get your money's worth (but it might be wise to avoid talking about 2007).

BTW, is Coulthard going to write his biography soon? That might be an interesting read.


You have a very strange one sided view of the events of the 2007 season which makes me wonder if you are either are linked to the Spankie's gang or just a very gullible fanboy. If the latter perhaps you should review in your mind the events of 2007 & 2008 up to and including the election of Jean Todt as as Mosley's successor and what we now know about the NotW and phone hacking. One thing is clear Mosley had a great deal of personal animosity towards Ron Dennis and would see nothing stand his way to destroy the McLaren boss, some would also suspect particularly in 2008 that Lewis Hamilton also became a target of Mosley.
Mosley learned the dark arts political tactics from his father Oswald a master. Without going into details Sir Oswald Mosley was not exactly a nice man not unknown to pick on scapegoat a plank to stir hatred within the electorate as a means of gaining a following.

It is very odd that aside from Coughlan the two people within Mclaren that we are 100% sure were in possession of Ferrari data got off scot free.

#276 four1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 23:42

You have a very strange one sided view of the events of the 2007 season which makes me wonder if you are either are linked to the Spankie's gang or just a very gullible fanboy. If the latter perhaps you should review in your mind the events of 2007 & 2008 up to and including the election of Jean Todt as as Mosley's successor and what we now know about the NotW and phone hacking. One thing is clear Mosley had a great deal of personal animosity towards Ron Dennis and would see nothing stand his way to destroy the McLaren boss, some would also suspect particularly in 2008 that Lewis Hamilton also became a target of Mosley.
Mosley learned the dark arts political tactics from his father Oswald a master. Without going into details Sir Oswald Mosley was not exactly a nice man not unknown to pick on scapegoat a plank to stir hatred within the electorate as a means of gaining a following.

It is very odd that aside from Coughlan the two people within Mclaren that we are 100% sure were in possession of Ferrari data got off scot free.


So in other words, you're saying that McLaren was clean as a whistle but Ron Dennis and the other investors in the team were quite content to dish out $ 100 million because...well just because that's the way the FIA worked at that time. Oh well. I might be gullible as you stated but you're just dreaming in technicolour. Besides, isn't "gullible" the whole theme of this thread?

#277 HP

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 23:48

BTW, is Coulthard going to write his biography soon? That might be an interesting read.

Coulthard has said and also written enough in Autosport about his time with McLaren.

#278 e34

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:49

You have a very strange one sided view of the events of the 2007 season which makes me wonder if you are either are linked to the Spankie's gang or just a very gullible fanboy. If the latter perhaps you should review in your mind the events of 2007 & 2008 up to and including the election of Jean Todt as as Mosley's successor and what we now know about the NotW and phone hacking. One thing is clear Mosley had a great deal of personal animosity towards Ron Dennis and would see nothing stand his way to destroy the McLaren boss, some would also suspect particularly in 2008 that Lewis Hamilton also became a target of Mosley.
Mosley learned the dark arts political tactics from his father Oswald a master. Without going into details Sir Oswald Mosley was not exactly a nice man not unknown to pick on scapegoat a plank to stir hatred within the electorate as a means of gaining a following.

It is very odd that aside from Coughlan the two people within Mclaren that we are 100% sure were in possession of Ferrari data got off scot free.


In my opinion, Dennis' dimission and McLaren public appeal for mercy after FIA found Ferrari IP on McLaren car (months after Coughlan and Alonso had left the team) allows us to be 100% sure that there were other people in designing roles at McLaren who were in possession of Ferrari data.

Which back then was perfectly normal. We were told, almost at the beginning of every GP, at which lap Ferrari was going to pit for fuel. I am pretty sure that Ferrari also had that info.

And while I probably disagree with you on your opinion on Ron Dennis, I fully agree with you in your opinion on Mosley (and probably on Todt).

What amazes me no end is how Alonso (and in other instances, Hamilton) were/are brought out from time to time like a bad demon to have us entertained, while in the backstage Ecclestone, Todt (who has done nothing for improving F1 since he chairs FIA), CVC and, back in time, Dennis and Mosley, played their power and money games.

Because we should not forget that back in 2007, Ferrari had a hell of a problem trying to find a substitute for Todt: Stepney was up in arms, but so was Brawn and, eventually, Todt, who left in disgust years later. The team was in disarray, but Todt found a way out with the Stepney-Coughlan affair. On the other side, Mosley also used the scandal in his private vendetta against Dennis. Mosley then had his phone hacked, as you say, and was on the brink of being destroyed (he is the real Teflon-man). And the supposedly squeaky-clean McLaren had a 700 page dossier of Ferrari IP... and used it.

And yet, somehow, when one reads these forums, it would seem that Alonso masterminded all this.

#279 majkel

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:08

Well, surprise surprise indeed. Or not really. Seems Ferrari and Fernando are a perfect match. I know Fernandos followers will argue that they dont see any problem with it. But it only once again highlights the shady nature of Alonso. One thing is to win on merit. Another thing is to completely use and extrapolate your teammate to an inch of his dignity and then shrug your shoulders afterwards. And use the rules to gain what I think is an unfair advantage. What about those people that were on the clean side and suddenly found themselves on the dirty side.

To me, that is not sporting, nor deserving, nor honorful or commendable. But perhaps those things dont matter to some people anymore. They do to me. And that is why I could never support a person like Alonso. No matter how great a driver he is. He is great, yes. But he is seriously sticky.

Just a sidenote. If you're a Mac fan (Ham/Kovi) or especially RBR fan (Vet/Web) you really shouldn't play an offended person all that much. If you're just talking ethics, I can see some merit in your post, even though I don't agree.

Cheers.

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#280 Cesc

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:45

All 2007 history all over again... too tired of it.

My feeling about next year for McLaren is that we may face a similar season than Williams had in 2005. It was the begginig of the end. A top car from time to time, but far from championship leaders. Probably a few podiums, but with Hamilton in Mercedes, I would bet than Lewis will be faster than them.

Also, I have serious doubts about Perez. Looking at the standings, he has been in the points 7 times, Kobayashi has been 8 times. But Perez has three podiums, that gives him the points advantage. Still, in his podiums, I wonder if they were result of his driving skills (partly) but mostly due to great tire strategies by Sauber (Canada was a mess and in Monza they did a different strategy that paid off).

I really hope it is not the decline, but for first time in many years, they will not have a super class driver (Button is fine...but he is not Hamilton, Alonso nor Vettel, the best three) unless I'm wrong with Perez.

Edited by Cesc, 22 November 2012 - 09:47.


#281 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:41

All 2007 history all over again... too tired of it.

My feeling about next year for McLaren is that we may face a similar season than Williams had in 2005. It was the begginig of the end. A top car from time to time, but far from championship leaders. Probably a few podiums, but with Hamilton in Mercedes, I would bet than Lewis will be faster than them.

Also, I have serious doubts about Perez. Looking at the standings, he has been in the points 7 times, Kobayashi has been 8 times. But Perez has three podiums, that gives him the points advantage. Still, in his podiums, I wonder if they were result of his driving skills (partly) but mostly due to great tire strategies by Sauber (Canada was a mess and in Monza they did a different strategy that paid off).

I really hope it is not the decline, but for first time in many years, they will not have a super class driver (Button is fine...but he is not Hamilton, Alonso nor Vettel, the best three) unless I'm wrong with Perez.

Yet Button did something that Alonso could only dream to do: He beated an EXPERIENCED Lewis Hamilton, who was already established in McLaren, throughout a whole season...

#282 Cesc

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:39

Yet Button did something that Alonso could only dream to do: He beated an EXPERIENCED Lewis Hamilton, who was already established in McLaren, throughout a whole season...


Ok, ok...
Always the same, one season makes a career. In the whole period together, Hamilton has beaten Button. More points, more podiums, wins, etc.




#283 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:50

Ok, ok...
Always the same, one season makes a career. In the whole period together, Hamilton has beaten Button. More points, more podiums, wins, etc.

Yes.. An experienced and peaking Hamilton has marginally beaten a veteran Button after three years.

That doesn't change the fact that Button did what Alonso was only dreaming of...

#284 hotstickyslick

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:58

Yes.. An experienced and peaking Hamilton has marginally beaten a veteran Button after three years.

That doesn't change the fact that Button did what Alonso was only dreaming of...

Nonsense. Hamilton was clearly superior to Button in 2010, 2011 was Hamilton's meltdown year and clearly doesn't reflect his ability in anyway. 2012 doesn't need anything said about it.

and that is to beat Hamilton in good form? Button has not done that actually, everyone knows that 2011 was anamoly and that Hamilton was much better in 2007. The fact is that any decent driver could've beaten Hamilton in 2011, and that's not to put down Button, but to state the truth.

Edited by hotstickyslick, 22 November 2012 - 13:02.


#285 Santosdf

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 14:23

Allegedly he has the financial backing of Carlos Slim. I am not saying, at all, that he is a paydriver or that having the financial support of Carlos Slim was the main reason behind McLaren's hiring of Sergio Perez. And in any case, I said it as a positive feature of hiring Perez. If he really does not atract any big sponsor, then all the worse for McLaren, because if I am not wrong, vodafone is leaving.

Well if Vodafone leaves , then there is an opurtunity for Slim to sponsor Mclaren , but until then no mayor sponsor from Checo, and even if Vodafone leaves if Slim is commited to Sauber backing Gutierrez , he is not going to sponsor 2 teams