156 replies to this topic

[kosmos]

I want to make clear that that this is not a topic to judge if they did right or wrong with the decision to "change" the gearbox, this is about how they communicated the fact to F1 fans.


They didn't lie, or manipulated the media or come with far fetched story to cover they backs, they told to F1 fans and the media the truth, as clear as a glass of water, not only that, but they allowed Massa to express his feeling with any filter at the end of the race. As a fan of F1, in a sport full of lies and manipulation, I want to express my gratitude to Ferrari for treating me (and the F1 fans) with respect.

[mgs315]

Was a damn sight better than how they handled Germany 2010. I guess that experience helped them realise they may as well be honest about it.

[Zava]

not like they had any other option, with the rumors about them doing it for the sake of Alonso getting a clean side position being out hours before the announcement. if they wanted to still pull it off as a genuine gearbox change, they would've became laughing stock.
but yeah, at least it is good that they didn't do that.

Edited by Zava, 19 November 2012 - 17:38.

[PinkZepStones]

I switched allegiance to Ferrari from perennial underachievers Mclaren halfway through 2011 party cause of Ferraris we do it open and we dont care what you think.

I like that, and i too respect that they just outright did it, it paid off didnt it?

[fabr68]

not like they had any other option, with the rumors about them doing it for the sake of Alonso getting a clean side position being hours before the announcement. if they wanted to still pull it off as a genuine gearbox change, they would've became laughing stock.
but yeah, at least it is good that they didn't do that.

I disagree

I think it was better for Ferrari to be honest than to fake it and then selfproclaim themselves as the honorable holders of the highest moral grounds of racing gentlemanhood.

[Gareth]

When you want to implement your plan as close as possible to the start of the race (so Red Bull have little opportunity to respond), so you are forced to only break a seal (and not change the box), then being honest about it is the only option you have.

So I give them no credit for it. When they are honest about this kind of thing in a situation where honesty is not forced upon them, then I'll give them credit.

[Atreiu]

Now get all the tifosi to gather in a group hug.

[Diablobb81]

Thanking someone for not lying. Great....

I wanted to make a comparison with someone taking a dump on you and then you thanking him for the toilet paper but that would be too gross.

Ferrari did what's right for them. Fans or media were of no concern for them.

Edited by Diablobb81, 19 November 2012 - 17:41.

[Zava]

I disagree

I think it was better for Ferrari to be honest than to fake it and then selfproclaim themselves as the honorable holders of the highest moral grounds of racing gentlemanhood.

yeah, the thing is they didn't even have the chance to fake it, they were sort of forced to be honest.

edit: heh, it seems Gareth was faster with the forced comment.

Edited by Zava, 19 November 2012 - 17:42.

[August]

No, they behaved too arrogantly when saying they are proud of what they did and that they announce it so publicly. They should've just said we had to do this for the championship even if it wasn't a nice decision.

[Anonymous]

Wow, are you really THAT naive?

[Fatgadget]

Wow, are you really THAT naive?

PR departments when damage limiting know no boundaries..didn't you know?

[Buttoneer]

As Gareth said, circumstances forced the reaction they gave, not a sense of loyalty to the paying public or fans.

[Sakae]

When you want to implement your plan as close as possible to the start of the race (so Red Bull have little opportunity to respond), so you are forced to only break a seal (and not change the box), then being honest about it is the only option you have.

So I give them no credit for it. When they are honest about this kind of thing in a situation where honesty is not forced upon them, then I'll give them credit.

I thought that exploring ambiguity in technical specifications was a fair game, but since when manipulation of sporting regulations with underhanded tactics makes all ethical and permissible? I for one thought that F1 could rise above it, but maybe not.

Alonso should be excluded from last race with no points to his credit, and Ferrari the same, and in addition could contribute to FiA fund in some decent amount of cash in round numbers.

First Singapore, now this; all pretty tiring kind of a champion.

[Seanspeed]

Ferrari did what was best for themselves and knew they were within the rules. I'm not sure they cared at all what people said or thought about it, nor should they.

Alonso should be excluded from last race with no points to his credit, and Ferrari the same, and in addition could contribute to FiA fund in some decent amount of cash in round numbers.

Edited by Seanspeed, 19 November 2012 - 18:11.

[dau]

Shows you the reputation Ferrari has when people feel the need to thank them for not lying to the public.

[SpaMaster]

I switched allegiance to Ferrari from perennial underachievers Mclaren halfway through 2011 party cause of Ferraris we do it open and we dont care what you think.

I like that, and i too respect that they just outright did it, it paid off didnt it?

I don't think it made any difference. Massa starting from 11th finished P4. Alonso's original starting position would have been better than that and would have at least finished behind Massa in which case Massa would have moved over. It's all a moot point. Including how thankful fans should be about them being honest. Like they had any other choice. They would have only created a big headache for themselves if they tried to deny it like in the past.

[Seanspeed]

Shows you the reputation F1 has when people feel the need to thank them for not lying to the public.

Not that I agree, but I fixed that comment for you so you can see where the OP was coming from.

[John Player]

Tell that to the fans of the drivers who had their starting positions changed for nothing

[dau]

Not that I agree, but I fixed that comment for you so you can see where the OP was coming from.

Gee, thanks. I don't know what i would do without you.

[ed24f1]

Was a damn sight better than how they handled Germany 2010. I guess that experience helped them realise they may as well be honest about it.

Which is probably more a reflection on the changed rules rather than any change in honesty policy.

[Seanspeed]

Gee, thanks. I don't know what i would do without you.

No problem.

[syph0nJZ05]

As F1 fans we're so used to all of the 'testing the letter of the law' stuff that it's refreshing to see one of the teams actually just come out and express that they are pushing the boundaries. Also I don't understand why people are upset by this (unless they are a Massa fan) because these kinds of shenanigans have been going on for a long time and it's about time people except that they come with the sport. It's one of those situations now - if you can't beat them join them - and Ferrari did the right thing by pushing the boundaries here to their advantage. I say, well played.

[RealRacing]

Openly saying that you are doing something that is legal but ethically wrong is not right, no matter how you look at it. The very fact that Ferrari, Alonso and many of their fans have made such a big effort to try to convince that what they did was all right, shows that they feel it's not.

But hey, when you have done it often before, you start to believe that it's right. At the end of the day, it's Ferrari and it's Alonso so no big surprise there.

Edited by RealRacing, 19 November 2012 - 18:30.

[Gyan]

If I had to make a decision, I'd have done the same thing. It's using the rules to your max advantage and that's a common theme in F1.

[syph0nJZ05]

Openly saying that you are doing something that is legal but ethically wrong is not right, no matter how you look at it. The very fact that Ferrari, Alonso and many of their fans have made such a big effort to try to convince that what they did was all right, shows that they feel it's not.

But hey, when you have done it often before, you start to believe that it's right

At the end of the day this is a competitive sport, not politics. F1 is riddled with teams pushing the boundaries of the rules to gain an advantage. If you sit back and compete in a really conservative way then you will lose out in the end. In an ideal world all of these loop-holes would be closed, but as they are open (and as this is a sport) they will be exploited.

[syph0nJZ05]

If I had to make a decision, I'd have done the same thing. It's using the rules to your max advantage and that's a common theme in F1.

[Number62]

Ferrari did what was best for themselves and knew they were within the rules. I'm not sure they cared at all what people said or thought about it, nor should they.

Technically speaking they broke the rules. Contained within the same sporting regulations as 'you can't deliberately crash into someone'.

Actually the language is very similar, it describes what 'an incident' is and the penalty for breaching. It describes the gearbox constraints and the penalty for breaching.

Both are against the rules. Both carry a penalty.

[study]

They did what they had to do. Redbull would do the same, eg: giving vettel the new front wing that was Webbers. If a Vettel fan claims otherwise I wouldn't believe him.

Whitmarsh wouldn't do it cause it wouldn't be equal, but then he'd be happy to lose a WDC.... maybe thats why

Edited by study, 19 November 2012 - 18:42.

[goingthedistance]

I actually really liked their no BS approach to it. I didn't much like the decision to do it, but I applaud them for not treating the fans with disrespect

[Seanspeed]

Technically speaking they broke the rules. Contained within the same sporting regulations as 'you can't deliberately crash into someone'.

Actually the language is very similar, it describes what 'an incident' is and the penalty for breaching. It describes the gearbox constraints and the penalty for breaching.

Both are against the rules. Both carry a penalty.

Ok yea, literally, they weren't within the rules.

Perhaps I should say they were within their rights to do what they did.

[DutchCruijff]

Ferrari, since Schumacher's dominance, are winners. Produce a **** car during the off-season? No problem, we'll develop it. Missing out on the title from '96 to '99? No problem, we'll win 5 on the trot. Red Bull taking loopholes to the extreme? No problem, we'll get the FIA to sort it out. Massa in your team? No problem, guinea pig.

Winners. No bullshit, no drama.

[Cenotaph]

It's quite interesting though that in 2007 FIA had to make sure Alonso was given equal treatment and now Massa is admittedly getting screwed by his own team and no one even cares. It's even more interesting in this forum considering at this time last week some guys were trying to convince us that RBR/STR were bringing the sport into disrepute.

We went through a very dramatic change in F1 recently in terms of what is deemed acceptable. First team orders were not ok but ultimately impossible to control, so it became openly allowed again and rightfully so. But we went from that to "everything is fair game, all that matters is the end result" rather quickly.

Edited by Cenotaph, 19 November 2012 - 19:24.

[MrAerodynamicist]

I maintain that the problem with Austria 2003 wasn't the order itself but the preceding lies. We had seven years of Ferrari telling us that Eddie and Rubens were on equally footings, and they were simply unable to live with Michael. That afternoon revealed that deceit and hence the uproar. This repeated itself in Germany 2010. By comparison, everyone knew Salo was there to help Irvine, so giving up the win in Germany was not met by anger.

The FIA missed a trick by not linking the legalisation of team orders with preemptive honesty.

[ExEd]

If I had to make a decision, I'd have done the same thing. It's using the rules to your max advantage and that's a common theme in F1.

Thing is that when somebody else doing it (in many ways) its called "cheating","unfair","against the spirit blah blah blah" etc.

[RealRacing]

At the end of the day this is a competitive sport, not politics. F1 is riddled with teams pushing the boundaries of the rules to gain an advantage. If you sit back and compete in a really conservative way then you will lose out in the end. In an ideal world all of these loop-holes would be closed, but as they are open (and as this is a sport) they will be exploited.

I disagree with you. At the end of the day F1 is more politics than a competitive sport. If it truly were a competitive sport, the use of the loopholes you mention would not be allowed and/or punished. Why was there not a bigger reaction to what happened Sunday? Because it was Ferrari (or other big team), because it was good for the championship and probably because many of the teams that could/should have protested, hope that they can also sometime exploit such a loophole and if/when they do, they also have a chance of getting away with it, nothing happened. But if there's a better evidence that this sport is pure politics, I would (not) like to see it.

Of course, at the end of the day, it comes down to your view of what sport should be or should be like. However, to try to justify this, claiming that it was good for the objective is not a proof of great competitiveness and cunning tactics, it's really a proof of the sorry shape F1 is in as a (truly competitive) sport.

[RealRacing]

At the end of the day this is a competitive sport, not politics. F1 is riddled with teams pushing the boundaries of the rules to gain an advantage. If you sit back and compete in a really conservative way then you will lose out in the end. In an ideal world all of these loop-holes would be closed, but as they are open (and as this is a sport) they will be exploited.

I disagree with you. At the end of the day F1 is more politics than a competitive sport. If it truly were a competitive sport, the use of the loopholes you mention would not be allowed and/or punished. Why was there not a bigger reaction to what happened Sunday? Because it was Ferrari (or other big team), because it was good for the championship and probably because many of the teams that could/should have protested, hope that they can also sometime exploit such a loophole and if/when they do, they also have a chance of getting away with it, nothing happened. But if there's a better evidence that this sport is pure politics, I would (not) like to see it.

Of course, at the end of the day, it comes down to your view of what sport should be or should be like. However, to try to justify this, claiming that it was good for the objective is not a proof of great competitiveness and cunning tactics, it's really a proof of the sorry shape F1 is in as a (truly competitive) sport.

[undersquare]

Shows you the reputation Ferrari has when people feel the need to thank them for not lying to the public.

Lol so true.

And since Stefano lied through his teeth about the Italian flag only a couple of weeks ago I can't see this as a decision based on ethics. They simply knew it would look ridiculous to pretend a broken FM gearbox was a coincidence.

[Seanspeed]

If it truly were a competitive sport, the use of the loopholes you mention would not be allowed and/or punished.

Part of F1 has always been about being clever and maximizing your package within the rules. Thats part of the competitive aspect of this sport. They're not incompatible ideas at all.

[F1Champion]

I want to make clear that that this is not a topic to judge if they did right or wrong with the decision to "change" the gearbox, this is about how they communicated the fact to F1 fans.


They didn't lie, or manipulated the media or come with far fetched story to cover they backs, they told to F1 fans and the media the truth, as clear as a glass of water, not only that, but they allowed Massa to express his feeling with any filter at the end of the race. As a fan of F1, in a sport full of lies and manipulation, I want to express my gratitude to Ferrari for treating me (and the F1 fans) with respect.

I wonder how much of that gratitude is due to Alonso being on the beneficial end of this decision. Switch drivers and would you have started this thread?

[Tenmantaylor]

If someone warns you before they slap you in the face would you appreciate it? Ridiculous thread.

[mgs315]

To be fair I'd expect any other team in the same scenario to do it. If I was Stefano I'd do it too.

Maximise chances. After all when you're fighting over tenths of improvement in the cars and shaving tenths off pit stops, what's the difference? It's all tactics.

(Lewis/McLaren fan here).

[AlexS]

I wonder how people in the Forum would react when the past the top driver could get the car from the second or third driver after the start of the race...

[RealRacing]

Part of F1 has always been about being clever and maximizing your package within the rules. Thats part of the competitive aspect of this sport. They're not incompatible ideas at all.

As said, it all depends on your view of how things should work, in F1, in sport and in general. I think the "end justifies the mean" mentality of F1 is wrong to begin with and it's IMO one of the reasons why the sporting aspect of it is not better.

But let's say (sadly), people accept it like it is because, supposedly, "it has always been like that" (not a valid argument not to try and change things in my view but that's another topic), it's still different to try to make your car as competitive as possible technically than to manipulate a race by affecting teammates and other competitors. So, one of them stems from the desire to improve technically and, if the rules don't cover it, ok. But the original motivation behind it is the improvement, the research, the technological push forwards. In this case, however, the impression is that they started from the rules and worked backwards: they saw there was nothing against it in the rules and decided to do it, even if they knew that it was wrong in a sporting sense and that, had someone provided for it before, it would be forbidden. Reminds me of Tim Ferris, the guy that won a combat series in Asia by finding there was an omission in the rules about simply pushing opponents out of the ring. Did he win? Yes. Is he considered a good sportman and a true champion? Hardly.

[RealRacing]

I wonder how much of that gratitude is due to Alonso being on the beneficial end of this decision. Switch drivers and would you have started this thread?

That's the problem of being a strong fan vs. objectivity...

[Tsarwash]

So in straightforward language ,they deliberately broke the rules, knowing that the punishment handed out to one driver would significantly benefit their other driver. And they openly did this, and admitted it afterwards, and we are supposed to applaud them for being open about breaking the rules ?

[Seanspeed]

As said, it all depends on your view of how things should work, in F1, in sport and in general. I think the "end justifies the mean" mentality of F1 is wrong to begin with and it's IMO one of the reasons why the sporting aspect of it is not better.

But let's say (sadly), people accept it like it is because, supposedly, "it has always been like that" (not a valid argument not to try and change things in my view but that's another topic), it's still different to try to make your car as competitive as possible technically than to manipulate a race by affecting teammates and other competitors. So, one of them stems from the desire to improve technically and, if the rules don't cover it, ok. But the original motivation behind it is the improvement, the research, the technological push forwards. In this case, however, the impression is that they started from the rules and worked backwards: they saw there was nothing against it in the rules and decided to do it, even if they knew that it was wrong in a sporting sense and that, had someone provided for it before, it would be forbidden. Reminds me of Tim Ferris, the guy that won a combat series in Asia by finding there was an omission in the rules about simply pushing opponents out of the ring. Did he win? Yes. Is he considered a good sportman and a true champion? Hardly.

Thats a bit more of an extreme example. Ferrari did not win anything here, nor did it preclude Alonso from having to work for his finishing position still. It just meant he wasn't going to have to start off on a bad foot. A criticism that should be probably be levied at the track for having such a terrible difference between one side of the track and the other that a team would want/need to take such drastic measures to avoid suffering for it.

[sniper80]

Red Bull has been lying to us 3 years in a row, and they haven't yet come through to the fans ;)

[Fastcake]

Shows you the reputation Ferrari has when people feel the need to thank them for not lying to the public.

Pretty much.

[Myrvold]

So in straightforward language ,they deliberately broke the rules, knowing that the punishment handed out to one driver would significantly benefit their other driver. And they openly did this, and admitted it afterwards, and we are supposed to applaud them for being open about breaking the rules ?

'
By breaking the "do not break the seal" rule. Yup.