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Brazilian GP FP1, FP2, FP3 and Qualifying.


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#551 BackOnTop

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 17:57

I don't think you understood my comment at all.
I'm not one of Alonso's disciples, thinking there must be a technical reason why he got beat.

Andersson made a very valid point, backed up by Alonso lifting the inner wheel in the air, locking it. That does suggest a softer rear, which is set-up change no.1 nowadays, if you tune for the wet.

If you knew more about basic race car set-ups.....

Lol... they all just confirmed that Alonso is NOT ON WET SETUP... like you were led to believe by BBC "biased for Alonso" journalists.... always trying to look for excuses for Alonso. Andrew Benson crosses reality with Alonso love fest... making people like you very gullible to whatever they feed you.

If "only" you knew more about basic race car set-ups.....

Edited by BackOnTop, 24 November 2012 - 17:58.


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#552 choyothe

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 17:58

You're absolutely right, I've never seen such resolute defending into a first corner in my life, he was so lucky not to have taken them both out.


So what do you want him to do? Chop into the sidepod of Vettel? Would that fulfill your standard?

#553 Ricardo F1

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 18:01

So what do you want him to do? Chop into the sidepod of Vettel? Would that fulfill your standard?

If they were racing or on opposing teams I'm pretty sure Webber could have moved inside and blocked Vettel. He knows his place at this point of the season regardless of what he says in the PC.


#554 Zoetrope

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 18:07

Sure, perhaps he could've asked that as a follow-up but the focus is always going to be on his role in Vettel's race.


I think there are lots of people who doesn't really care about WDC fight and prefer to hear about Webber's great lap, not an easy task to outqualify Vettel after all.

#555 sv401

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 18:08

not an easy task to outqualify Vettel after all.


It is entirely possible if he makes a mistake, like it was the case now.

Edited by sv401, 24 November 2012 - 18:09.


#556 choyothe

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 18:11

If they were racing or on opposing teams I'm pretty sure Webber could have moved inside and blocked Vettel. He knows his place at this point of the season regardless of what he says in the PC.


Check the start again, Vettel had his car alongside extremely quickly. That process would've of course been even quicker had Webber cut across instantly, there was no way he was keeping Vettel behind with their respective launches.



#557 four1

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 18:14

Lol... they all just confirmed that Alonso is NOT ON WET SETUP... like you were led to believe by BBC "biased for Alonso" journalists.... always trying to look for excuses for Alonso. Andrew Benson crosses reality with Alonso love fest... making people like you very gullible to whatever they feed you.

If "only" you knew more about basic race car set-ups.....

Dude, you might still be relatively new here but take it from a real "long-timer" in this forum, Race Addicted is not only one of the most respected members here but he is also one of the most unbiased. You might want to take that into consideration in your future replies to his posts.

As for Alonso's true setup for the race, nobody but he and Ferrari know and I'm sure they're not revealing anything about it. Why would they? What have they got to gain by letting everyone know today?

#558 PretentiousBread

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 18:32

That's why I don't have the guts to put any real money on it!


Haha, QFT.

#559 race addicted

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 18:47

Dude, you might still be relatively new here but take it from a real "long-timer" in this forum, Race Addicted is not only one of the most respected members here but he is also one of the most unbiased. You might want to take that into consideration in your future replies to his posts.

As for Alonso's true setup for the race, nobody but he and Ferrari know and I'm sure they're not revealing anything about it. Why would they? What have they got to gain by letting everyone know today?


Blush! Thanks mate!

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#560 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 18:55

Blush! Thanks mate!


Been here a whole month longer than me ;) 10,000 posts he did! :lol:

#561 Cult

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 19:11

I like how many are saying that 0.26 seconds cannot be explained by setup changes. You can make certain wet weather changes which would definitely explain this difference, if it were 1-2 seconds then of course driver performance would be most of the explanation.

#562 SpaMaster

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 19:17

I think there´s a magnifying glass at the first corner and if Flippy even tries something dodgy his F1 career will be over. I am not sure if even FA would like his teammate to decide WDC for him.

You are totally right on the first part and may be totally wrong on the second part. :p That said, I don't think Massa would do anything intentional at all.

#563 BackOnTop

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 19:20

Blush! Thanks mate!

I must show my respect as well.

It's just that people have stopped giving credit where credit is due. Massa performed better, but some journalist goes around & finds Alonso had "newer" diffuser in USA & had wet setup in Brazil.



#564 RealRacing

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 19:23

"Felipe, il parafango anteriore è forte e pneumatico di Vettel è gonfiabile ...
Può confermare a capire questo messaggio?"

Pardon my Italian :lol:

#565 Cult

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 19:27

I must show my respect as well.

It's just that people have stopped giving credit where credit is due. Massa performed better, but some journalist goes around & finds Alonso had "newer" diffuser in USA & had wet setup in Brazil.


Massa for my money has been just as good as Alonso in the last 4 races, huge improvement and great to see. It would be fantastic to see the two have a proper battle next year.

#566 SpaMaster

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 19:30

Webbers going to let Vettel through at the first opportunity.

You can count on Webber to have his trademark lousy start.

Has there been a race this season when at least one of them hasn't had a problem?!

Same sentiment. You can rule at least one McLaren out and give 30-50% for one of the Red Bull cars. It won't be preposterous to have P3 granted for Alonso.

#567 Tsarwash

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 19:30

So anyway, If McLaren finish the race one-two then they will overcome Ferrari in the WCC. Probably unlikely if it's a wet race (or otherwise) but Ferrari must have one eye on keeping their second place. I don't think they are likely to scupper Massa's chances for the long shot of Alonso winning the WDC. (Personally I think I would be glad if Alonso did win it.)

#568 race addicted

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 19:32

I must show my respect as well.

It's just that people have stopped giving credit where credit is due. Massa performed better, but some journalist goes around & finds Alonso had "newer" diffuser in USA & had wet setup in Brazil.


No worries, and I've of course noticed there being arms and legs in the air from Alonso-fanboys, when Massa does better. However today I can easily buy into what Andersson aired. Several drivers have openly admitted they tuned the car towards the wet.

#569 Tsarwash

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 19:33

You can count on Webber to have his trademark lousy start.

Same sentiment. You can rule at least one McLaren out and give 30-50% for one of the Red Bull cars. It won't be preposterous to have P3 granted for Alonso.

You're probably correct, but I think Alonso's chances depend on the weather. He needs to beat Seb by at least four positions. Realistically Seb needs to have a nightmare race for Alonso to win.


#570 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 19:35

So anyway, If McLaren finish the race one-two then they will overcome Ferrari in the WCC. Probably unlikely if it's a wet race (or otherwise) but Ferrari must have one eye on keeping their second place. I don't think they are likely to scupper Massa's chances for the long shot of Alonso winning the WDC. (Personally I think I would be glad if Alonso did win it.)

McLaren get 1-2, Alonso finishes third and Vettel retires. McLaren happy, Ferrari happy.

#571 weareracing

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 19:41

With heavy overnight rain forecast, the track will be relatively green for tomorrow's finale.
I think the Fat Lady still has a full repertoire to get through.
At present it looks like a Red Bull anthem but DON'T rule out a Ferrari encore.
Can't wait for the lights to change from RED to GREEN :smoking:

#572 Cult

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 19:42

Massa should be in an ideal position to help Alonso. If Webber gets a bad start and the Ferrari get their characteristically good starts then Massa could be 3rd going up to turn 3/4.

Surely that's their best opportunity of allowing Alonso to attack. They can deal with the McLarens later in the race.

#573 SpaMaster

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 19:58

Massa should be in an ideal position to help Alonso. If Webber gets a bad start and the Ferrari get their characteristically good starts then Massa could be 3rd going up to turn 3/4.

Surely that's their best opportunity of allowing Alonso to attack. They can deal with the McLarens later in the race.

It is one thing to be genuinely slow and defend other cars. But intentionally holding up would be a punishable offense.

#574 Tombstone

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 20:13

Massa should take out Seb at the start tomorrow.


It'll give us all something to talk about until March;)


(Note: to those without a sense of humour, this is not serious, it is a 'joke')


Joke or not, Adelaide '94 still sticks in the craw. March 2030 perhaps.

#575 Tombstone

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 20:14

It is one thing to be genuinely slow and defend other cars. But intentionally holding up would be a punishable offense.


The stewards/fia couldn't punish Alonso for a transgression by Massa.

#576 Tombstone

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 20:20

That's the spirit! :up:


Problem is if ferrari break the fia seal Massa gets demoted anyway. Maybe some bloke in a red balaclava will break in to parc ferme tonight...

Edited by Tombstone, 24 November 2012 - 20:21.


#577 SpaMaster

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 20:33

The stewards/fia couldn't punish Alonso for a transgression by Massa.

Why not? If Massa could take a penalty to help the team and Alonso, I am sure it can be applied the other way also. Anyway, I did not even mean that. Massa would face severe punishment. Then, come to think of it, it is a team offense, the team can be punished and FIA can punish as they deem fit. For example, if Ferrari the team is excluded from the race, both drivers can be out automatically.

#578 Tombstone

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 20:57

Why not? If Massa could take a penalty to help the team and Alonso, I am sure it can be applied the other way also. Anyway, I did not even mean that. Massa would face severe punishment. Then, come to think of it, it is a team offense, the team can be punished and FIA can punish as they deem fit. For example, if Ferrari the team is excluded from the race, both drivers can be out automatically.


It would be ENTIRELY without precedent to directly punish a driver for a team's*, and team-mate's, transgression of the rules.

* Excepting gearbox/fuel/engine et al.

Edited by Tombstone, 24 November 2012 - 21:00.


#579 SpaMaster

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 21:23

It would be ENTIRELY without precedent to directly punish a driver for a team's*, and team-mate's, transgression of the rules.

* Excepting gearbox/fuel/engine et al.

WDC is not just a driver's prize, it is very much a team prize also. It may be without precedent. But everything had a start at some point. I can definitely see a case for punishment. If Massa is holding up the pack for Alonso, what's wrong in punishing Alonso? A driver can certainly be punished for the team's action if that action is intended to benefit the driver illegally.

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#580 Cult

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 21:31

It is one thing to be genuinely slow and defend other cars. But intentionally holding up would be a punishable offense.


I wasn't implying Massa weaving around the track and going 4-5 seconds slower a lap, getting ahead and 'saving fuel' would be enough for Alonso to attack the two Red Bulls at the start of the race.

Schumacher held up Hakkinen for Irvine by 1-2 seconds a lap at Malaysia 99 and didn't receive any penalties.

#581 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 21:34

Why not? If Massa could take a penalty to help the team and Alonso, I am sure it can be applied the other way also. Anyway, I did not even mean that. Massa would face severe punishment. Then, come to think of it, it is a team offense, the team can be punished and FIA can punish as they deem fit. For example, if Ferrari the team is excluded from the race, both drivers can be out automatically.


That's not the same thing at all, Massa did not take the penalty for anything happening with Alonso or Alonso's car.


#582 sv401

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 21:39

The stewards/fia couldn't punish Alonso for a transgression by Massa.


If that is the case, they cannot punish Vettel for a transgression by Webber (or a Toro Rosso driver ?) either.

Edited by sv401, 24 November 2012 - 21:40.


#583 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 21:51

I don't think there can be any doubt that the FIA somehow could and would punish Ferrari AND Alonso if Massa, say, deliberately took out Vettel. And rightly so. But for anything resembling a normal racing mishap, even if an accident was Massa's fault: no way.

#584 hmm

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 22:53

Most sports have rules about sportsmanship and if you break them severely like lie to the stewards, have a device in your car which is obviously illegal etc. the punishment is also severe.

I believe if a car of the team is found to deliberately take an opponent out of the race in benefit of the other car, the whole team will take the punishment and rightly so.

However, I don't believe Massa would do anything so stupid.

#585 robefc

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 23:02

If that is the case, they cannot punish Vettel for a transgression by Webber (or a Toro Rosso driver ?) either.


Hehe, massa takes out vettel at the first corner and mark is then instructed to go on a seek and destroy mission on alonso!

#586 SCUDmissile

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 23:31

Hehe, massa takes out vettel at the first corner and mark is then instructed to go on a seek and destroy mission on alonso!

Means both teams are DQ from both titles and McLaren take the double! (If Lewis can beat KImi into third)

Edited by SCUDmissile, 24 November 2012 - 23:31.


#587 Tombstone

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:51

If that is the case, they cannot punish Vettel for a transgression by Webber (or a Toro Rosso driver ?) either.


I know, but WTF has that got to do with the price of fish?

#588 Juggles

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:57

I know, but WTF has that got to do with the price of fish?


It directly affects Alon-sole for a start...

#589 HP

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:18

I wasn't implying Massa weaving around the track and going 4-5 seconds slower a lap, getting ahead and 'saving fuel' would be enough for Alonso to attack the two Red Bulls at the start of the race.

Schumacher held up Hakkinen for Irvine by 1-2 seconds a lap at Malaysia 99 and didn't receive any penalties.

If they did that, I do hope Vettel does the same as MS did with DC in Indy. Get by at the earliest chance and let Massa/Alonso look as if they were stupid. And as much as I like Massa, he probably wouldn't be capable to pull that feat off for several laps anyway, as driving defensively is not his forte, and certainly not on the same level as Schumacher was back then.


#590 f1rookie

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 13:32


Qualifying in Photos – 2012 Brazilian GP

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More Pictures - http://www.formula1o...azilian-gp.html






#591 BillBald

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 14:14

If they did that, I do hope Vettel does the same as MS did with DC in Indy. Get by at the earliest chance and let Massa/Alonso look as if they were stupid. And as much as I like Massa, he probably wouldn't be capable to pull that feat off for several laps anyway, as driving defensively is not his forte, and certainly not on the same level as Schumacher was back then.


Massa wouldn't need to defend well, he would need to defend the same way he did against Senna in Melbourne.