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Vettel allegedly passing under yellows [Merged]


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#1 Stuko

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:36

http://www1.skysport...o/12870/8282348
(about min 4:00)

What do you think?

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#2 swerved

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:38

Adam Cooper: "Re the chat on Sky TV and elsewhere about Vettel passing under yellows, what was seen were red and yellow slippery surface boards"

/Close another thread

#3 figue

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:38

Well, the video shows it all really.

Nothing to discuss about. The race is over, the contention is over. Bring on 2013

#4 tarmac

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:40

Its not blinking

#5 Jejking

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:43

About the last part, no penalty for Vettel because Kobayashi pitted, was bollocks anyway because Alonso got a penalty after he did sthg illegitimate to Kubica in Silverstone 2010, after which Kubica DNF'd with technical problems.

#6 Myrvold

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:43

Anyone got a HD pic of it or something?

#7 michal2009b

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:46

And what about passing an HRT under yellow earlier on?

#8 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:48

its Moo!


http://www.youtube.c...btPBh3NXs#t=28s

#9 Realyn

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:51

zzz

#10 f1fan1998

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:00

More interestingly, vettel overtook an HRT on lap 2 turn one. I saw it on his onboard. Anyone else notice it?

Edited by f1fan1998, 25 November 2012 - 21:01.


#11 dau

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:12

Its not blinking

Yup. Light panels are supposed to be flashing to indicate yellow flags. So i guess a static light panel could be used to indicate a slippery track.

2.4.3.3
Light operation
- Each flag should be represented by a pair of lights
flashing alternately or by a flashing light panel; the blue pit
exit signal may be a single flashing light;

(Appendix H to International Sporting Code)

#12 Baddoer

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:21

Vettle made an illegal pass under yellow. Should be penalized but he wasn't.

#13 Fourjays

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:22

So they were red/yellow and it looked just yellow due to the TV camera (they brighten up the images afaik)? Or they were solid yellow with a supplementary flag that wasn't clear in the mist? Fair enough either way if it was red/yellow, but it wasn't at all clear that was the case on TV.

Have to admit the details of the yellow lights aren't something I've ever particularly looked into. Thought yellow was a yellow flag and flashing yellow was the equivalent of a double waved yellow flag for taking extra caution.


Edited by Fourjays, 25 November 2012 - 21:23.


#14 mnmracer

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:07

I too learned something new today, but no blinky = no penalty.
Case closed :)

#15 Jejking

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:15

Nice, clear as water :)

#16 paulogman

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:03

Vettel passes under yellow
Hamilton gets a penalty

#17 Jacobss

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:07

Vettel passes under yellow
Hamilton gets a penalty

Haha, so funny. :lol:



Just pathetic. :rolleyes:





#18 beute

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:29

As already said, the last "light" wasnt blinking/flashing.
It was not a yellow flag.

Funny is, McNish himself had problems freezing the imagine in the right moment to highlight the first yellow flag/light and for the second yellow flag he also mentioned that it was flashing.

Edited by beute, 25 November 2012 - 23:30.


#19 fdspd

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:31

Slightly off topic, but anyone know if the incident involving Vettel's clash with Senna on the first lap was investigated? To me it clearly looked like Vettel turned into the apex without checking his mirrors and cut Senna off. Not a racing incident IMO.

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#20 scheivlak

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:34

Slightly off topic, but anyone know if the incident involving Vettel's clash with Senna on the first lap was investigated? To me it clearly looked like Vettel turned into the apex without checking his mirrors and cut Senna off. Not a racing incident IMO.

It wasn't AFAIK.
I guess that was because Senna was already out of the race, otherwise he should have had a penalty for divebombing into another car.

#21 Racer3

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:41

To me it clearly looked like Vettel turned into the apex without checking his mirrors and cut Senna off. Not a racing incident IMO.

FWIW, Senna himself called it a racing incident when interviewed.




#22 KinoNoNo

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:44

Does anybody serious thinks that race direction/stewards was going to interfere in a title decider?

Bad for the show dear boy, and all that.

#23 fdspd

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:47

FWIW, Senna himself called it a racing incident when interviewed.


I'm sorry I didn't know that. There was nothing much to it really, maybe it looked that way on my 240p stream. Case closed.

#24 mnmracer

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:49

If you look at the Sky animation, it is clear that there is no way Vettel could have seen Senna. All he could see in his right mirror was Räikkönen, and his left mirror was taken up by di Resta, who he was well clear of.

#25 engel

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:53

Senna/Vettel was a racing incident. Di Resta was on the racing line, Vettel was ahead but to the outside, Senna was diving up the inside, there was no way for Vettel to know Senna was there

#26 Myrvold

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:20

Senna/Vettel was a racing incident. Di Resta was on the racing line, Vettel was ahead but to the outside, Senna was diving up the inside, there was no way for Vettel to know Senna was there


Just to be a total ***. Isn't this the thing Grosjean has been under so much critic for? The Spatial Awareness.

#27 Wander

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:23

Vettel didn't check his blind spot before switching lanes. :drunk:

Edited by Wander, 26 November 2012 - 03:23.


#28 TheF1BOB

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:24

Pathetic excuses from the so-called stewards. Bernie will do anything to see his boy be champion. :p

Joking aside, could of easily gotten a penalty for the Senna incident imo.

#29 wepmob2000

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:27

Pathetic excuses from the so-called stewards. Bernie will do anything to see his boy be champion. :p

Joking aside, could of easily gotten a penalty for the Senna incident imo.


He should have got a penalty, the Hulk got one for a genuine racing incident, so Vettel should have got one for carelessly chopping across Senna's nose.......



#30 chrcol

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:43

seems I didnt see it right yesterday, on the analysis it isnt blinking so in my mind that isnt yellow flag condition but something else (probably warning).

so all this fuss started when sky did replay during race and brundle said yellow flags :D

#31 ClubmanGT

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:03

He should have got a penalty, the Hulk got one for a genuine racing incident, so Vettel should have got one for carelessly chopping across Senna's nose.......


You must leave the space, all of the time!

#32 skinnyman

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:11

It was an obvious yellow flag while passing Koba, but it's over now.

#33 mnmracer

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:43

It was an obvious yellow flag while passing Koba, but it's over now.

repeat after me:
if it doesn't blink, let the throttle sink

#34 LoudHoward

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:51

When Seb goes through the Grosjean yellow the "yellow zone" lights come on in his cockpit, they go off when he goes past the green, and they're off when he passes Koba. End of story.

#35 Oho

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:09

When Seb goes through the Grosjean yellow the "yellow zone" lights come on in his cockpit, they go off when he goes past the green, and they're off when he passes Koba. End of story.


If Vettel had actually passed Kobayashi under yellows Ferrari would be crying foul like there was no tomorrow and the infringement, I assume, would have been automatically detected. They certainly have the facilities in place to automatically detect and log yellow flag violations with accurate car tracking and interactive warning lights system in the cockpit.

As for making a mountain out of a mole hill, I thought Alonso payed almost no regard to rivals when rejoining the track after his off track excursion in the early laps.

Edited by Oho, 26 November 2012 - 12:55.


#36 artista

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:26

It was an obvious yellow flag while passing Koba, but it's over now.

Nope. It obviously wasn't a yellow flag. That fix light is the signal for a red and yellow (Catalonian flag if you want).

If you haven't enough with the video showing how the light is not blinking, and Vettel's steering wheel not showing the authomatic signal for yellow flags, you can download the live timing and tracking for the race (for the app) and you will see how the track is blinking in orange, not yellow, with a message saying it's slippery in sector 11, while the general marker is in green.

#37 Peat

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:00

Oh. my. goodness.

Is this still being discussed? Christ, have some dignity men.

Oh, and remember that a micro onboard camera and the human eye react differently, especially at whatever Hz and speed. If you look, all the 'yellow' lights were supplemented with a held red/yellow flag at the marshals posts inbetween. Also, when seb pits a lap or so later, you can see one of the static light 'flags' through the fence and it is clearly red/yellow striped. The same one passed at 180mph through an onboard camera looked like a solid colour.

On the lap in question - We ride onboard with Vettel, every light board around the circuit is illuminated with the red/yellow (looks orange) until they get to Bico du Pato (hairpin) where there is a flashing yellow for the recovery on Grosjeans car. They pass that and get the green light. At the very next post, the solid 'orange' lights are on again as they were everywhere else. That is when Vettel passes Kob.

Also, ask yourself. WHY would there be yellow flags the whole way around the track when there was not incidents in those places.

I really don't have the time to go and screen-grab iplayer to show you, but i might try.

Edited by Peat, 26 November 2012 - 08:23.


#38 Niceone

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:05

Pathetic excuses from the so-called stewards. Bernie will do anything to see his boy be champion. :p

Joking aside, could of easily gotten a penalty for the Senna incident imo.

Like with when they handed penalty for Hulkenberg for simple racing incident (happened to help Alonso) or when they sent SC out right when Alonso had been crying over radio?

#39 HappyPhantom

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:10

or when they sent SC out right when Alonso had been crying over radio?


It's not because we only heard one drivers' radio that others didn't ask for a safety car...

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#40 scheivlak

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:12

Just to be a total ***. Isn't this the thing Grosjean has been under so much critic for? The Spatial Awareness.

Well, you succeeded in being just that.

#41 August

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:38

That overtake happened on lap 9, didn't it? I watched a replay of the race last night and didn't see the world feed showing there is a yellow flag. So I don't think there was a yellow flag. But they showed a short replay during that lap so I can't be sure there wasn't a yellow flag during that replay.

#42 Peat

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:47

Some evidence for the panel:

Posted Image

On the left is the static red/yellow (orange) light that was being displayed around the length of the circuit on Lap 8.

On the right is the flashing yellow for the Grosjean clear-up.

They look quite similar to us, but as i have said, consider the difference between the human eye and an image taken through a camera/compression/frequency/vibration.

Edited by Peat, 26 November 2012 - 08:48.


#43 PedroR

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:02

Crystal Clear.

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=Vm_6c_PWi7E

MA-FIA :evil:

#44 Peat

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:07

Crystal Clear.

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=Vm_6c_PWi7E

MA-FIA :evil:


Yep, it is crystal clear. He overtook the HRT/HRT moved over prior to the yellow 'zone'.

Get. Over. It.


#45 Fourjays

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:24

Also, when seb pits a lap or so later, you can see one of the static light 'flags' through the fence and it is clearly red/yellow striped. The same one passed at 180mph through an onboard camera looked like a solid colour.

Don't suppose you have a clear screenshot of that? Never known the lights to show red/yellow before. Then again, the case for it to happen doesn't occur very often.

They look quite similar to us, but as i have said, consider the difference between the human eye and an image taken through a camera/compression/frequency/vibration.

That they do, but can now see with the side-by-side that the left one looks orange. Could part of it be down to the brightening of the images for TV? Heard that they do this quite often when it is wet.

Actually glad to say that I was wrong and it wasn't what it initially looked like. My peeve over it was with the FIA (not Vettel) for what looked like the most monumental ****-up in a long line of ****-ups.

As for the lap 1 incident, my understanding is they usually don't investigate/penalise them due to the chaos on lap 1.




#46 Oho

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:37

Actually glad to say that I was wrong and it wasn't what it initially looked like. My peeve over it was with the FIA (not Vettel) for what looked like the most monumental ****-up in a long line of ****-ups.


But that's just it, I do not know if they detect such violations automatically but they certainly have all the facilities in place to do so. FIA tracks the locations and ordering of cars on track in almost real time, it should be relatively straight forward to automatically detect switch in running order in sector with waved yellows and notify the race control.

#47 krea

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:58

Crystal Clear.

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=Vm_6c_PWi7E

MA-FIA :evil:


Vettel didn't make anything here. even under yellow flag you're not supposed to stop if the other car has problems.

#48 choyothe

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:13

The real question is why is the oil/wet flag about as close to the same colour you can get from the yellow flag? It's as if they are looking for this kind of controversy.

#49 mnmracer

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:16

The real question is why is the oil/wet flag about as close to the same colour you can get from the yellow flag? It's as if they are looking for this kind of controversy.

Good point, but isn't that why they uses the lights on the steering wheel now?
I imagine that's about the only thing most drivers look at these days.

#50 Peat

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:27

The real question is why is the oil/wet flag about as close to the same colour you can get from the yellow flag? It's as if they are looking for this kind of controversy.


It's also a 'caution' flag, albeit only advisory.