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Vettel allegedly passing under yellows [Merged]


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#651 Raifosa

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:12

Alan van der Merwe ‏@alanvdm
Calm down chaps - Seb didn't overtake under yellow. Forget the dash lights…it's about the green flag which he had passed. Flags>lights.

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#652 Creepy

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:15

He should be man enough to accept defeat and not go to FIA


Did Alonso go to the FIA?

#653 SteF1an

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:16

http://www.auto-moto...al-6184272.html (AMuS, german)

Vettel didn't overtake under yellow!

#654 Mr2s

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:18

Actually several people were congratulating Pat Fry for not wanting to "go to court" but accept defeat there and then. Only die-hard FA-tifosos were clutching at straws from get-go.


Fair enough. What the die hards need to realize, is that this could have quite easily been Alonso, or could be next year. Especially as drivers don't seem to actually show any caution under Yellows anyway. In the old days I recall drivers holding their hand up to marshalls whilst foot still planted to the floor.


Red Bull fans mustn't be too quick to sling mud either, they also protested about Michael Schumahcer using his DRS under Yellow at Valencia.

http://www.f1sa.com/...c...&Itemid=157

#655 PedroR

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:18

Not yesterday, but today, right now, after read some stupid post about 2007, ice fuel = yellow lights etc... I´d enjoy with a Sebastian penalty. :evil:

Regards :down:


#656 rolf123

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:21

Pull the other one. It's not a completely different thing at all, it's exactly the same thing. Alonso said in 2007 that an overturn of the result "would be a joke", and now we hear he's pushing for Ferrari to do the same thing?

It might be a load of bull, but if it isn't, it's highly hypocritical.


It's not exactly the same thing.

In the first instance we are talking about fuel irregularities that gave no advantage that, if ruled upon, would luck someone into a championship.

In this instance we are talking about a championship contender himself who might have broken the rules by ignoring a direct order from marshalls about a dangerous situation.

Totally different, not "exactly the same thing".

#657 rolf123

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:22

Got to say it again.

Even if if if(which it isn't in my opinion) it was a yellow RBR will argue: Had the 20 sec penalty given in the race Vettel would have finished in the same spot thanks to the SC's. Rembmer RAI was 1 lap down as 10th. Or they would have simply retireted Vergne/Webber.


"Would ofs" and "should ofs" (I make those grammatical errors on purpose to reflect how they are normally spoken) mean nothing in sporting regulation and never have done. You can't legislate for hypotheticals.

#658 H2H

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:23

It's not exactly the same thing.

In the first instance we are talking about fuel irregularities that gave no advantage that, if ruled upon, would luck someone into a championship.

In this instance we are talking about a championship contender himself who did not brake the rules by not ignoring a direct order from marshalls about a dangerous situation.

Totally different, not "exactly the same thing".


Fixed. Maybe the mods should close this thread as there is no longer much to discuss. :up:

#659 rolf123

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:24

It's already been posted:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20531638

"The 31-year-old Alonso, who was world champion in 2005 and 2006, is believed to be pushing Ferrari to make an official protest to the FIA."


"believed to be". Means nothing.

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#660 MonacoMaster

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:24

It's not exactly the same thing.

In the first instance we are talking about fuel irregularities that gave no advantage that, if ruled upon, would luck someone into a championship.

In this instance we are talking about a championship contender himself who might have broken the rules by ignoring a direct order from marshalls about a dangerous situation.

Totally different, not "exactly the same thing".


And more importantly it would be this time around Alonso himself who would be crowned as a champion, not his rookie team mate. :drunk:

#661 30ft penguin

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:26

Online article: http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20531638

Interesting note as well



but ... there IS nothing new which has been discovered. Vettel's overtake was legal. :confused:?:



#662 Mr2s

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:26

And we also have Ferrari saying on Twitter that they've asked for clarification. Labelling that "pathetic" isn't unreasonable in my opinion.


I've never liked Ferrari's version of 'clarification' either, especially when they were at their worst during the Schumacher years. The OP seems to have used the word 'pathetic' based on the shit stirring though, not based on every teams right to ask for a clarification of a rule.

We are also talking about a driver who though it was ok to use DRS under yellows and a Red Bull team who lodged a protest against Michael Schumacher for doing the same.

Obviously the posters who think Ferrari are unique in anyway, haven't yet watched a full season of F1.

#663 Mr2s

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:27

And more importantly it would be this time around Alonso himself who would be crowned as a champion, not his rookie team mate. :drunk:


And some rookie he was. It was still his best season to date.

#664 ali.unal

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:28

It's not exactly the same thing.

In the first instance we are talking about fuel irregularities that gave no advantage that, if ruled upon, would luck someone into a championship.

In this instance we are talking about a championship contender himself who might have broken the rules by ignoring a direct order from marshalls about a dangerous situation.

Totally different, not "exactly the same thing".

Frankly, I don't think Vettel's race would have been any different if he had taken drive through penalty. It was Lap 4 and raining and safety car and so on. There were lots of ground to be made. Vettel choudl have easily got the position he needed with penalty or no penalty. Alonso should know this and just keep his mouth shut, prepare for the next season.

#665 Coops3

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:28

"believed to be". Means nothing.


It means it's believed to be!

#666 Showty

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:29

I guess by Ferrari standards from now on if u ask FIA for clarification u are a bad loser.

And at the same time, if u don´t ask for clarification regarding something it´s because u are such a mess of a team for not realizing before.

Ferrari, by all means, did the RIGHT thing.

Now FIA gives a clarification.

Case closed, and we all move on.

Well, the ones that can move on, some others will keep on moaning about Ferrari and Alonso.


#667 Coops3

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:31

I've never liked Ferrari's version of 'clarification' either, especially when they were at their worst during the Schumacher years. The OP seems to have used the word 'pathetic' based on the shit stirring though, not based on every teams right to ask for a clarification of a rule.

We are also talking about a driver who though it was ok to use DRS under yellows and a Red Bull team who lodged a protest against Michael Schumacher for doing the same.

Obviously the posters who think Ferrari are unique in anyway, haven't yet watched a full season of F1.


I was defending K-One's post, which was made only a few minutes ago.

#668 Mr2s

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:33

Did Alonso go to the FIA?


He is believed to be there now, camping on the steps of the building in Paris, drinking coffee from a flask under an umbrella.

#669 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:34

Ferrari wants clarification on Vettel move in Brazilian GP

Prior to explanations from the FIA on Thursday that Vettel's pass of Vergne took place immediately after a green flag signal, Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali wrote a letter to FIA president Jean Todt on Wednesday night seeking a detailed explanation of the circumstances surrounding the incident on lap four.

http://www.telegraph...plete-joke.html


#670 olliek88

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:10

Can we end this thread now?

Its a complete non story. As the good folk at Autosport pointed out ( http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104645 ) it was in a green flag zone. Certain parts of the media have jumped on *cough* Andrew Benson *cough* this and blown it up into something its not.


#671 jstrains

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:16

Interesting point is that JEV finished 16.7 secs behind MSC like if they would be preparing themselves for a possible penalty just id did not work out because he finished 19.2 secs behind VET

#672 wrcva

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:25

Ecclestone believes the situation has detracted from what was a thrilling end to the season.
"It's a shame because everything had gone so well," Ecclestone told the Telegraph. "It was a super race, a super championship. Now everyone is talking about this. The problem is that no one knows what is going on." Ecclestone is convinced nothing will happen despite the controversy.
"Personally I think it's not really like Ferrari to do this. I think they badly wanted to win. But if you want to go back and see what Ferrari have done down the years...
"But nothing will happen. What can they do? Take civil action? Maybe. But the case is flawed before it starts. Nothing is going to happen."
The F1 boss also feels Ferrari's call for a clarification comes too late.
"In the rules and regs normally you have to protest. They [Ferrari] missed that time," said Ecclestone.
"Then there is the fact that a green flag was shown, which nobody seems to dispute.
"It's a complete joke. What they are saying in that letter is wrong. I don't think there needs to be any action taken. It's completely and utterly wrong."


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#673 SpaMaster

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:29

I am quite surprised that Ferrari had asked for clarification. I can't see how they can raise this point without knowing for sure there was a yellow flag in that marshal post. They should have known where the flag posts and what can be the grounds to question. For anyone who knows where the flag posts, I can't see how that video can be anything other than casual non-issue stream. You would think a team like them would easily be able to verify these things. Yet, they seem to fallen for some amateur notification of the video. Shows their intentions.

#674 superuser

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:32

As I said, they are doing it for internal consumption by Ferrari/Alonso fans. Maybe a few people at Ferrari count on this to save their jobs. Anyway, it's clear that their behavior is quite stupid and irrational but, hey, they can embarrass themselves as long as they want. If history is any indicator, everyone will be forgotten about this in three days and all that's remembered is that Ferrari/Alonso lost. That's it.

#675 artista

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:32

Interesting point is that JEV finished 16.7 secs behind MSC like if they would be preparing themselves for a possible penalty just id did not work out because he finished 19.2 secs behind VET


There is no point, nor interesting or uninteresting. They were preparing nothing:
Vergne was 11 seconds faster than Vettel and 1.5 seconds faster than Schumacher in that last lap. It's all about the deltas when driving with the safety car on track.

FIA official data so you can look it all by yourself: http://184.106.145.7.....ory Chart.pdf



#676 Rinehart

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:32

As I said, complete nonsense. I too am surprised Ferrari (a) officially protested (b) did so publicly.

Red Bull and Ferrari, shut up. Keep your respective class and pride intact.

#677 ali.unal

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:37

As I said, complete nonsense. I too am surprised Ferrari (a) officially protested (b) did so publicly.

Red Bull and Ferrari, shut up. Keep your respective class and pride intact.

Ferrari didn't protest, they asked for clarification. Protest means legal action, trial and so many black days.

#678 sharo

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:48

Ferrari didn't protest, they asked for clarification.

The question is why?
Do they had some further intent?
Or don't know the rules they compete under?
Or just to throw some tar on the title?

#679 Diablobb81

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:54

To satisfy their more rabid fans but without getting into trouble with the FIA.

The samurai way (i'm starting to like this).

Edited by Diablobb81, 29 November 2012 - 17:54.


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#680 Cenotaph

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:03

To satisfy their more rabid fans but without getting into trouble with the FIA.

The samurai way (i'm starting to like this).

this

#681 SpaMaster

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:04

Protest and asking clarification are all the same in that they want to change the result. Asking clarification is even worse because they themselves were not sure, and they had no evidence to become unsure in the first place. :stoned:

#682 SCUDmissile

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:16

Ferrari just seem to be punching bags it seems. They can't be right.

When they didn't say anything, they are cowards.
When they enquirer about a clarification. Not even a protest, clarification I.e. just making sure the rules are being followed, they are bad losers.

:rolleyes:

#683 kpchelsea

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:25

It's already been posted:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20531638

"The 31-year-old Alonso, who was world champion in 2005 and 2006, is believed to be pushing Ferrari to make an official protest to the FIA."

Totally classless, i remember Hamilton in 2007 when there was fuel irregulators concerning two teams, said he had no wish to win the WDC through the back door

#684 kosmos

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:33

Totally classless, i remember Hamilton in 2007 when there was fuel irregulators concerning two teams, said he had no wish to win the WDC through the back door



English is not my forte, but yours either, google the meaning of "is believed ".

#685 tomjol

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:36

Totally classless, i remember Hamilton in 2007 when there was fuel irregulators concerning two teams, said he had no wish to win the WDC through the back door


Yes, a direct quote from Hamilton (which you don't provide) is definitely equivalent to a rumour.

#686 kpchelsea

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:37

Frankly, I don't think Vettel's race would have been any different if he had taken drive through penalty. It was Lap 4 and raining and safety car and so on. There were lots of ground to be made. Vettel choudl have easily got the position he needed with penalty or no penalty. Alonso should know this and just keep his mouth shut, prepare for the next season.

This is what i don't like even if Vettel had been found guilty he should have been punished at the time thus giving him chance to fight back, afterall he was just holding position at the end of the race plus the SC would have nullified the penalty somewhat anyways, i'm guessing maybe Alonso himself though wouldn't have been asking for the SC if Vettel had been much further back?

#687 kpchelsea

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:39

Yes, a direct quote from Hamilton (which you don't provide) is definitely equivalent to a rumour.

I don't remember the direct quote but he clearly said he hoped McLaren wouldn't go down that route

#688 fabr68

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:40

The question is why?
Do they had some further intent?
Or don't know the rules they compete under?
Or just to throw some tar on the title?


It took more than 500 posts, dozens of videos and more better resolution videos as well as re reading the rules several times to clarify this thing. Ferrari just wanted the FIA to be the official source to explain this.

It was not until a few hours that the media offered articles explaining what happened.

Ferrari is not doing anything to change the results of the WDC so take a chill pill.

#689 wrcva

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:42

As I said, they are doing it for internal consumption by Ferrari/Alonso fans. Maybe a few people at Ferrari count on this to save their jobs. Anyway, it's clear that their behavior is quite stupid and irrational but, hey, they can embarrass themselves as long as they want. If history is any indicator, everyone will be forgotten about this in three days and all that's remembered is that Ferrari/Alonso lost. That's it.

don't forget Santander... Both LdM and Fred have to answer to Botin as to WTF is wrong with the Red after spending $$$$$$$$$$ all these years with nothing to show for... now, they need even more $$$$$$ to rebuild the windtunnel as well. This way, they are building the case for Santander that they have done everything possible on their side but that darn big bad bull and the FIA spoiled the show for them by cheating, or facilitating cheating...

Santander VP (Cendoya) once said "... we paid a lot of attention to every penny, peseta, euro that we were spending. We don't give money away. We have given a lot of attention over the last 100 years to caring for the money of our shareholders. If we are investing in this agreement, and investing a sum of money in Ferrari, it is because we are sure that and I have all the figures it is going to be very profitable for our bank and for Ferrari."

The usual Ferrari PR, political theatrics and drama, this time, to calm Santander down a bit as Botin likely to hang LdM by the b**ls from the Pizza Tower...



#690 Collective

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:43

There is no point, nor interesting or uninteresting. They were preparing nothing:
Vergne was 11 seconds faster than Vettel and 1.5 seconds faster than Schumacher in that last lap. It's all about the deltas when driving with the safety car on track.

FIA official data so you can look it all by yourself: http://184.106.145.7.....ory Chart.pdf

Boom...

They look more and more ridiculous with every "argument" they try to make. It's sad, really.

#691 josepatches

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:47

The question is why?
Do they had some further intent?
Or don't know the rules they compete under?
Or just to throw some tar on the title?



This.

#692 Vesuvius

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:51

Why is this thread back, it was already closed for a while as it's already clear that Vettel move was legal and nothing new has come to our knowdledge since that.

#693 BestCarWins

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:51

"Totally classless, i remember Hamilton in 2007 when there was fuel irregulators concerning two teams, said he had no wish to win the WDC through the back door"

I remember Mclaren saying they were only appealing for a clarification and then their lawyer asking for the title to be given to Hamilton. Ferrari did not do this last step but they seem to be getting more stick for this then Mclaren did back then.

http://www.formula1n...lewis-hamilton/

#694 drunkenmaster

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:52

Spiegel Online (reputable paper) claims Alonso's management was behind the complaint to FIA.


Damit sind alle Spekulationen beendet, die besagen, dass Vettel eventuell seinen Titel wegen zweier fragwürdiger Überholmanöver am grünen Tisch noch verlieren könnte. Aus Fia-Kreisen erfuhr SPIEGEL ONLINE: Dieses Szenario stand nie zur Debatte. Das Thema sei lediglich vom Management des Vizeweltmeisters Fernando Alonso aufgebracht worden.

-

Thus all speculations are over, which said that Vettel could lose his title at the green table because of two questionable overtakes. From FIA sources SPIEGEL ONLINE learned: This scenario was never open for debate. The topic was only brought up by the management of vice-champpion Fernando Alonso.

http://www.spiegel.d...l-a-869985.html


Nice one, "green table samurai" Alonso... :rotfl:

#695 Skinnyguy

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:56

Spiegel Online (reputable paper) claims Alonso's management was behind the complaint to FIA.


Makes sense. His manager tweeted: "Where justice does not prevail, it´s dangerous beeing in the right".

#696 kpchelsea

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:57

"Totally classless, i remember Hamilton in 2007 when there was fuel irregulators concerning two teams, said he had no wish to win the WDC through the back door"

I remember Mclaren saying they were only appealing for a clarification and then their lawyer asking for the title to be given to Hamilton. Ferrari did not do this last step but they seem to be getting more stick for this then Mclaren did back then.

http://www.formula1n...lewis-hamilton/



Spiegel Online (reputable paper) claims Alonso's management was behind the complaint to FIA.




Nice one, "green table samurai" Alonso... :rotfl:

I'm not talking about the teams but the drivers, there's more than one article saying that Alonso himself asked for this to be investigated


#697 artista

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 19:00

Makes sense. His manager tweeted: "Where justice does not prevail, it´s dangerous beeing in the right".

Link to the tweet (somebody is going to ask for it sooner or later):
https://twitter.com/...521323546902528


#698 LiJu914

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 19:02

The most important question is:

How much money shall i demand from Red Bull for making that green flag-gif ? Posted Image

Edited by LiJu914, 29 November 2012 - 19:02.


#699 Leonsito

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 19:04

In the end it looks like this Vergne incident was already investigated during the race, and everyone agreed that nothing happened, even Pat Fry said that they looked at various situations, and none of them was ilegal.

And days later, Ferrari starts watching Youtube vids and go crazy, nice.

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#700 Diablobb81

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 19:08

The biggest winner is Lewis, though : now it's confirmed that there is an even bigger moron on Twitter now. "No miracles, just rules" #samurai