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Vettel allegedly passing under yellows [Merged]


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#751 DarthWillie

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 22:26

I just love the fact how all this gets spread into the media and takes away from Vettel's title :lol:

I'm sure Vettel's crying his heart out about that, while polishing his third throphy :wave:




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#752 ensign14

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 22:34

Having a 1st-lap incident = luck?

Passing under green flag = luck?

Live and learn I guess...

George Orwell made the point when he was shot through the throat in the Spanish Civil War. He awoke from his coma to find people saying how lucky he was...

#753 prty

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 22:45

Not saying that it's not the case, but I'm intrigued about the rationale of why the flag counts more than the light.
Yes, on one hand they are more frequent and accurate than the lights. But on the other hand they are there in cases where visibility is difficult, and if so, the chances of seeing the lights are higher than seeing the flags.
Wouldn't it be dangerous the speed difference if the driver who is ahead only saw the yellow lights and slowed down, while the driver who is behind that saw the green flag arrived full blast?

#754 Skinnyguy

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 22:53

Not saying that it's not the case, but I'm intrigued about the rationale of why the flag counts more than the light.


Oh c´mon, it´s not that hard. There´s no difference between flags and LED screens all around the circuit. It´s just that there are traditional flag posts without a LED screen.

LEDs on driver´s steering wheel are updated as you go throught LED screens, so they have no value, as you can be shown these yellow lights in the wheel despite have passed a marshall post without a LED to update them giving you a different indication.

LED Screens = flags.

LED steering wheel lights: just an aid for the driver, no value.

#755 michal2009b

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 23:00

Tbh I don't believe Vettel saw that green flag.

#756 artista

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 23:06

Not saying that it's not the case, but I'm intrigued about the rationale of why the flag counts more than the light.
Yes, on one hand they are more frequent and accurate than the lights. But on the other hand they are there in cases where visibility is difficult, and if so, the chances of seeing the lights are higher than seeing the flags.
Wouldn't it be dangerous the speed difference if the driver who is ahead only saw the yellow lights and slowed down, while the driver who is behind that saw the green flag arrived full blast?

In addition to what Skinny said,
In interlagos, right after turn 3 there is a marshall post with physical flags and electronic flags (whatever they are called in English, the one you see flasing yellow in the videos) then, further into the straight, there is another marshall post with just physical flags and no electronic flags (the famous one with the marshall waiving the green flag) and another one right before turn 4 with electronic and cloth flags (the one you see flashing in green).
Here you have a map with the position of the marshalls
http://184.106.145.7...012-circuit.jpg

Yellow dot is a electronic flag, and green dot a marshal with his traditional cloth flags. Do you see the one on the left into the straight without yellow dot? There it is. It is not that the marshall waiving the flag gets priority over the electronic one, it's simply that there is no electronic flag

#757 wingwalker

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 23:07

Tbh I don't believe Vettel saw that green flag.





yeah that .gif was pixelated to bits.

#758 LoudHoward

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 23:31

I wanted to buy my wife a Ferrari for Christmas but it will be Maserati instead.


That'll teach Fiat!

#759 30ft penguin

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 23:32

In addition to what Skinny said,
In interlagos, right after turn 3 there is a marshall post with physical flags and electronic flags (whatever they are called in English, the one you see flasing yellow in the videos) then, further into the straight, there is another marshall post with just physical flags and no electronic flags (the famous one with the marshall waiving the green flag) and another one right before turn 4 with electronic and cloth flags (the one you see flashing in green).
Here you have a map with the position of the marshalls
http://184.106.145.7...012-circuit.jpg

Let's make that even clearer, since some seem to have problems understanding that picture (and what the green/yellow dots mean):

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#760 Ramses1348

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 00:08

Tbh I don't believe Vettel saw that green flag.


:drunk: I agree, he is a cheat! :drunk:

#761 josepatches

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 00:48

Timeline of Vettelgate here in Spain.


1) Yellow flag. Illegal. Alonso is the true champion.

2) There is not marshall post. It's false and dashboard lights take precedence.

3) Marshall made a mistake. Vettel should be punished like Schumacher was in Monaco 2010.

4) Uhmmm....Photoshop!!!! The gif is fake.

5) MaFIA maFIA... FIA sucks!!! Vettel is the driver of the FIA (like Hamilton was in the past).He can break the rules.

6) Vettel never could see the flag. He was lucky. The marshall saved his ass.....




Please Vettel is the worthy 3 WDC. Move on.

Edited by josepatches, 30 November 2012 - 00:49.


#762 Morbus

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:33

I don't know what really happened, but I think Hamilton should get a penalty.

#763 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:44

Not saying that it's not the case, but I'm intrigued about the rationale of why the flag counts more than the light.
Yes, on one hand they are more frequent and accurate than the lights. But on the other hand they are there in cases where visibility is difficult, and if so, the chances of seeing the lights are higher than seeing the flags.
Wouldn't it be dangerous the speed difference if the driver who is ahead only saw the yellow lights and slowed down, while the driver who is behind that saw the green flag arrived full blast?

The onus is on FIA to get the lights and flags to synch. Even when it is yellow, the drivers don't normally cut down their speed that much that make them a hazard on the track. Collisions and interference with backmarkers are more likely to occur than a horrible crash under yellow due to conflicting flags and lights displayed on the race course.

#764 kpchelsea

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:54

Despite the expert analysis done by senior members it's hard to see how this is not a pass under yellow flags:



Check out from around 10:05 and then especially around 11:50 to 11:58

At 11:50 you can clearly see the flashing yellow light on the right hand side
At 11:53 Vettel pulls over to the left and the yellow light is still lit on his dashboard
At 11:54 Vettel has passed Vergne, still yellow light on the dashboard and no green flags being waved anywhere
At 11:55 Vettel drives past what looks like the marshalls stand on the right hand side but still with the yellow light on at his dashboard

So unless there is a marshall stand that isn't visible in this video, Vette passed under a yellow and NO DOUBT had a yellow light indication on his dashboard.

Yes the unfortunate thing there is that it looks like Vergne lifted off to let Vettel pass

Reading some more posts i guess Vergne saw the marshall waving the green flag and thats why he let Vettel pass

Edited by kpchelsea, 30 November 2012 - 02:03.


#765 August

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:11

I hope it does not end with a samurai harakiri

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Looks quite scary with Kobayashi name. Losing an F1 seat can't be that bad.

#766 Cenotaph

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:15

So I actually downloaded the race to the live timing app because some guys just can't shut up about Vergne dropping at the end...

When the SC is deployed Vettel is deep into S2, while Vergne is out of T3 and still in S1 therefore:

Here are the times by sector:

Lap 70:
VET - 22.7 | 50.4 | 25.7
VER - 23.8 | 58.9 | 25.2

Lap 71:
VET - 26.5 | 55.1 | 38.7
VER - 28.0 | 55.0 | 25.7

Vettel caught the pack in S3 and surprise surprise does a time much slower and Vergne reduces the gap to 19s by doing a normal sector under SC without a pack in front. So... another bullshit story. He was never close to Vettel, his time are perfectly within normal SC times and that's it...

#767 fbx

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:59

Anyone got a HD pic of it or something?


http://tinyurl.com/cxt5y86

If you haven't seen this 12 minute video clarifying 3 Vettel passes at Brazil, you owe it to yourself to watch it. The argument is very well presented that the first two were not under yellow and were perfectly legal.

The third pass, however, is clearly shown, including clear view of dash lights and passing the green flashing light AFTER the pass. It is the only version of the video I've seen that is pretty convincing that Vettel passed under yellow.

You cannot see the marshall or the green flag a marshall purportedly waved well before the green flashing light. Maybe there was a marshall, maybe not. You make the call.




http://tinyurl.com/cxt5y86

Edited by fbx, 30 November 2012 - 06:01.


#768 apoka

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:34

http://tinyurl.com/cxt5y86

If you haven't seen this 12 minute video clarifying 3 Vettel passes at Brazil, you owe it to yourself to watch it. The argument is very well presented that the first two were not under yellow and were perfectly legal.

The third pass, however, is clearly shown, including clear view of dash lights and passing the green flashing light AFTER the pass. It is the only version of the video I've seen that is pretty convincing that Vettel passed under yellow.

You cannot see the marshall or the green flag a marshall purportedly waved well before the green flashing light. Maybe there was a marshall, maybe not. You make the call.


The third pass is the Vergne pass, which has been discussed a bit in here. There was a marshall waving a green flag (see previous pages), that's why it's legal.

This thread is the funniest thing I have seen in a very long time.

Re-posting on a a place like reddit is one thing...or even in a forum like this if you are search inept...

..but "discovering" and re-posting...the same video...every other page in the SAME thread...


So, we have one more. Shall we take bets in how many posts the next person will discover that pass? :stoned:


#769 Andy35

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:34

Bit ironic with all the fanfare over HD tv being put into Formula1 that green flag was not easier to see.

Bernie should have saved all his pennies and bought some GoPro Hero's instead ;)

Andy



#770 ExFlagMan

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:04

Bit ironic with all the fanfare over HD tv being put into Formula1 that green flag was not easier to see.

I doubt very much that the onboard cameras are true HD, and SD transmissions tend to look worse on HD sets than on an SD set.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 30 November 2012 - 09:00.


#771 Torsion

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:06

http://tinyurl.com/cxt5y86

You cannot see the marshall or the green flag a marshall purportedly waved well before the green flashing light. Maybe there was a marshall, maybe not. You make the call.


Please see the images below captured around the 10.30s mark from this video. The marshal post, and the flag is visible. If the video is direct from the SKY feed as it says, then this is not a doctored video.
https://www.youtube....tailpage#t=632s

Posted Image

Posted Image

Hope that makes it at least clear that there was some flag waved. No way to say whether it was green or yellow, or something else.

Edited by Torsion, 30 November 2012 - 08:11.


#772 Konsta

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:16

Please see the images below captured around the 10.30s mark from this video. The marshal post, and the flag is visible. If the video is direct from the SKY feed as it says, then this is not a doctored video.
https://www.youtube....tailpage#t=632s

Posted Image

Posted Image

Hope that makes it at least clear that there was some flag waved. No way to say whether it was green or yellow, or something else.

I would be willing to say that the flag most definitely was NOT YELLOW - whether it was green or turquoise or lavender is a bit harder to tell.

#773 Uwe

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:43

Timeline of Vettelgate here in Spain.

1) Yellow flag. Illegal. Alonso is the true champion.

2) There is not marshall post. It's false and dashboard lights take precedence.

3) Marshall made a mistake. Vettel should be punished like Schumacher was in Monaco 2010.

4) Uhmmm....Photoshop!!!! The gif is fake.

5) MaFIA maFIA... FIA sucks!!! Vettel is the driver of the FIA (like Hamilton was in the past).He can break the rules.

6) Vettel never could see the flag. He was lucky. The marshall saved his ass.....

And another one in the comments section of James Allen (see #11):

7) The marshall showed the green flag only as a mistake.

Edited by Uwe, 30 November 2012 - 08:44.


#774 EvanRainer

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:46

8) Aliens

#775 stillOrange

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:48

I would be willing to say that the flag most definitely was NOT YELLOW - whether it was green or turquoise or lavender is a bit harder to tell.

Indeed. Someone in this thread posted a screenshot from Vettel's car from 2 laps before when it was indeed a yellow flag in that marshal post. It was very clear that it was a yellow flag and when you compare it is obvious that on lap 4 it isn't yellow.

#776 August

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:06

You cannot see the marshall or the green flag a marshall purportedly waved well before the green flashing light. Maybe there was a marshall, maybe not. You make the call.


I wonder if there are still people who believe there wasn't a green flag despite Whiting saying there was.

#777 prty

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:14

Oh c´mon, it´s not that hard. There´s no difference between flags and LED screens all around the circuit. It´s just that there are traditional flag posts without a LED screen.

LEDs on driver´s steering wheel are updated as you go throught LED screens, so they have no value, as you can be shown these yellow lights in the wheel despite have passed a marshall post without a LED to update them giving you a different indication.

LED Screens = flags.

LED steering wheel lights: just an aid for the driver, no value.

In addition to what Skinny said,
In interlagos, right after turn 3 there is a marshall post with physical flags and electronic flags (whatever they are called in English, the one you see flasing yellow in the videos) then, further into the straight, there is another marshall post with just physical flags and no electronic flags (the famous one with the marshall waiving the green flag) and another one right before turn 4 with electronic and cloth flags (the one you see flashing in green).
Here you have a map with the position of the marshalls
http://184.106.145.7...012-circuit.jpg

Yellow dot is a electronic flag, and green dot a marshal with his traditional cloth flags. Do you see the one on the left into the straight without yellow dot? There it is. It is not that the marshall waiving the flag gets priority over the electronic one, it's simply that there is no electronic flag


Yes, I know all that. But I don't know what does it have to do with what I'm saying.

The onus is on FIA to get the lights and flags to synch. Even when it is yellow, the drivers don't normally cut down their speed that much that make them a hazard on the track. Collisions and interference with backmarkers are more likely to occur than a horrible crash under yellow due to conflicting flags and lights displayed on the race course.


Drivers don't back off under yellows when they can see where the accident is, but the point is, those cases are exactly when the lights are not needed.
Imagine for example conditions like Fuji 2007. In the main straight there is zero visibility because of the spray, and a car crashes. The race director sees the car in the TV signal, and yellows the sector immediately, but a marshall by error or because he didn't see the accident because of the spray, is still waving a green flag. A driver, even though his display is yellow, manages to see the green flag, while others don't, and thinks there's no danger ahead. Don't need to explain the consequences.

#778 Darren1

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:38

Is this really still going??? Look on the BBC I player, about 1 hour 5 mins into the BBC coverage (If you can). On that lap there is a straight ahead shot and initially as the leaders come through the marshall has a yellow flag. Then about 7 or 8 seconds before Vettel comes through he brings in the yellow and holds out a green. Case dismissed, Happy Christmas

#779 EvanRainer

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:41

Is this really still going???


It's the thread that just keeps on giving :lol:


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#780 bourbon

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:40

Ferrari considers Vettel controversy over pass now closed

"The request for a clarification from the FIA, regarding Vettel's passing move on Vergne, came about through the need to shed light on the circumstances of the move, which came out on the Internet only a few days after the race,"

"The letter to the FIA was in no way intended to undermine the legality of the race result.

"We received tens of thousands of queries relating to this matter from all over the world and it was incumbent on us to take the matter further, asking the Federation to look into an incident that could have cast a shadow over the championship in the eyes of all Formula 1 enthusiasts, not just Ferrari fans."

"Ferrari duly takes note of the reply sent by the FIA this morning and therefore considers the matter now closed."

From Autosport: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104655


Original text: (from Ferrari.com)

Maranello, 30 novembre – La richiesta di chiarimento rivolta alla FIA in merito al sorpasso di Vettel su Vergne è stata dettata dall’esigenza di fare luce su circostanze emerse su Internet soltanto nei giorni successivi alla conclusione della gara e non dalla volontà di minare la legittimità del risultato sportivo. Decine di migliaia sono state le richieste ricevute in tal senso provenienti da tutto il mondo ed è stato doveroso da parte nostra approfondire, chiedendo un parere alla Federazione, un episodio che avrebbe potuto lasciare un’ombra agli occhi di tutti gli appassionati di Formula 1, non soltanto dei tifosi della Ferrari.

Questa mattina la FIA ha inviato la risposta con la sua opinione in merito all’episodio: la Ferrari ne prende atto e, conseguentemente, considera conclusa la questione.

From Ferrari: http://www.ferrari.c...-della-fia.aspx

Edited by bourbon, 30 November 2012 - 10:50.


#781 Diablobb81

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:46

Good work not saying what FIA's reply says. Just keep a shadow of doubt for the deluded and excuse your failure.

#782 Higli

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:55

"The letter to the FIA was in no way intended to undermine the legality of the race result."

I sincerely hope that this will at some time bounce back at Ferrari right between their eyes. :mad:

#783 wrcva

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:06

Good work not saying what FIA's reply says. Just keep a shadow of doubt for the deluded and excuse your failure.

probably the letter is a legal version of this

#784 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:21

Did anyone see this? Seems Alonso celebrated prematurely yesterday because the tweet was deleted shortly after?

Posted Image

Translation: "Not as sweet as winning on the circuit, but justice has been done and I am F1 World Champion for the 3rd time. Thank you!"

Spanish article: http://www.elnortede...1211291642.html

#785 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:25

Drivers don't back off under yellows when they can see where the accident is, but the point is, those cases are exactly when the lights are not needed.
Imagine for example conditions like Fuji 2007. In the main straight there is zero visibility because of the spray, and a car crashes. The race director sees the car in the TV signal, and yellows the sector immediately, but a marshall by error or because he didn't see the accident because of the spray, is still waving a green flag. A driver, even though his display is yellow, manages to see the green flag, while others don't, and thinks there's no danger ahead. Don't need to explain the consequences.

The flag marshal will not be waving green flag in this instance unless he is specifically instructed by the clerk of the course to wave the said flag. He does not see the accident/incident and he is not under any instruction from his immediate superior to wave any flag, then his duty is to stay put and do nothing and just man his station.

The duty of the flag marshall is to notify/report as soon as possible by any means at his disposal (telephone, signals, courier etc.) all incidents or accidents which might occur along the section for which they are responsible.

#786 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:28

Did anyone see this? Seems Alonso celebrated prematurely yesterday because the tweet was deleted shortly after?

Posted Image

Translation: "Not as sweet as winning on the circuit, but justice has been done and I am F1 World Champion for the 3rd time. Thank you!"

Spanish article: http://www.elnortede...1211291642.html

I don't believe that tweet is really from Alonso. Must be gutter journalism.

For a public figure like him with over 1mil followers on twitter, he will make sure he has a confirmed and verified news before texting out such provocative tweet to 1mil followers.

#787 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:34

Posted Image

#788 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:35

I don't believe that tweet is really from Alonso. Must be gutter journalism.

For a public figure like him with over 1mil followers on twitter, he will make sure he has a confirmed and verified news before texting out such provocative tweet to 1mil followers.

Well, it was retweeted by his followers. Just search for the hashtag #FelicidadesAlonso3. So it was out there.

Edit: Saw Raccoons post now. But confirmed fake by who? Alonso? Its weird, because it came from his account. Oh well..

Edited by Desdirodeabike, 30 November 2012 - 11:37.


#789 Coops3

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:39

I don't believe that tweet is really from Alonso. Must be gutter journalism.

For a public figure like him with over 1mil followers on twitter, he will make sure he has a confirmed and verified news before texting out such provocative tweet to 1mil followers.


It does seem a little bit hard to believe.

#790 swerved

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:42

Well, it was retweeted by his followers. Just search for the hashtag #FelicidadesAlonso3. So it was out there.

Edit: Saw Raccoons post now. But confirmed fake by who? Alonso? Its weird, because it came from his account. Oh well..



Aaaaah but it was probably hacked  ;) , funny how there always seems to be an "intermediary" between Fernando and the source of the shit.

#791 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:44

The tweet was never there, the screenshot is fabricated. None of the retweets exist.

#792 stuck-in-first-gear

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:46

Probably just his overambitious manager nicking Nando's Iphone while he was having a wee-wee...

#793 ensign14

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:55

Ferrari considers Vettel controversy over pass now closed

How magnanimous of them. Can we have Ferrari confirm that World War 2 is over as well plzkthx.

#794 gillesthegenius

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:58

How magnanimous of them. Can we have Ferrari confirm that World War 2 is over as well plzkthx.


:rotfl: good one. :up:

#795 Diablobb81

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:00

probably the letter is a legal version of this


"Thanks for wasting our time after a long season.

P.S.Build a better car and STFU. #samurai"

#796 kosmos

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:03

Did anyone see this? Seems Alonso celebrated prematurely yesterday because the tweet was deleted shortly after?

Posted Image

Translation: "Not as sweet as winning on the circuit, but justice has been done and I am F1 World Champion for the 3rd time. Thank you!"

Spanish article: http://www.elnortede...1211291642.html



:down: disgusting.

#797 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:05

How magnanimous of them. Can we have Ferrari confirm that World War 2 is over as well plzkthx.


:lol:

You're (:p) signature made me laugh too!

#798 Tsarwash

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:09

The tweet was never there, the screenshot is fabricated. None of the retweets exist.

I'm very glad that it's fake. Whoever faked that ought to be ashamed of themselves.


#799 TIFOlonSO

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:10

Time to close again this thread.
Too many trolls navigate these days in internet forums.
But it would be cool to open a new one discussing flags and lights - or not, this place is a kindergarten for many.

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#800 kosmos

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:12

Domenicali "confirmed" a moment ago that they asked for a clarification because the pressure in the social media.