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Vettel allegedly passing under yellows [Merged]


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#801 swerved

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:16

Domenicali "confirmed" a moment ago that they asked for a clarification because the pressure in the social media.



:rotfl: Better and better, you couldn't make it up.


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#802 Infinityl

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:46

I still dont understand why some people here are so surprised or disgusted with Ferrari or spanish base fans for try to clarify this overtake.

Seems a fact that there is a green flag, so no penalty is deserved to Vettel, but there are some mixed signals who should be clarify for the next time that happen something similar.

Even the F1 official app show yellow flag in the zone, included the marshall zone. Not looking for start again, Vettel do all right in this race, but FIA should clarify why a marshall is waving a green flag when others signals show yellow flag all the sector, thats all.

video f1 app

#803 ExFlagMan

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:48

The flag marshal will not be waving green flag in this instance unless he is specifically instructed by the clerk of the course to wave the said flag. He does not see the accident/incident and he is not under any instruction from his immediate superior to wave any flag, then his duty is to stay put and do nothing and just man his station.

I do not know where you got that information - as a flag marshal for almost 30 years, the rules are - you display the green flag at the next flag point after the yellow flag unless there is another incident in your sector - it is an automatic reaction. The only exceptions are if there is a SC or if Race Control request an extension to the yellow flag zone.

The duty of the flag marshall is to notify/report as soon as possible by any means at his disposal (telephone, signals, courier etc.) all incidents or accidents which might occur along the section for which they are responsible.

That is the duty of the observer - the flag marshal just flags what they see unless instructed otherwise - of course F1 may make up their own rules - they tend to do so - even to the extent of one year at Silvertstone changing the yellow flag rules part way through the race :eek: - not sure how they informed the drivers of the change!

#804 Diablobb81

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:51

There are no mixed signals. Dash lights are irrelevant and a timing app even more so (both are related to the loop in the marshal posts with lights). This situation was simple and happens every race : after a yellow zone we had a green zone. That's it.

Ferrari should have never publicly intervened in this case, because it gives an appearance of legitimacy to the questions raised. Ferrari should have phoned CW and leave it to that. What they did is pathetic.

Edited by Diablobb81, 30 November 2012 - 12:53.


#805 Infinityl

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:57

There are no mixed signals. Dash lights are irrelevant and a timing app even more so (both are related to the loop in the marshal posts with lights). This situation was simple and happens every race : after a yellow zone we had a green zone. That's it.

Ferrari should have never publicly intervened in this case, because it gives an appearance of legitimacy to the questions raised. Ferrari should have phoned CW and leave it to that. What they did is pathetic.


Of course there are mixed signals, as you can see in leds of Vettels car and in f1 app, the yellow given by Race Control extend until turn 4. A marshall give green flag before turn 4 so there are mixed signals.

#806 sawyer_si

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:57

:rotfl: Better and better, you couldn't make it up.

Check this out: http://www.sportmedi...-daccordo.shtml

FIA: "Vettel's pass legal". Do you agree?
No: 72%
Yes: 28%

Not everyone has been reading this thread, not everyone saw that hard to see green flag, but most did see a flashing yellow board, yellow lights on the dash,... There is/was genuine pressure on Ferrari in Italy and Spain, just because you live in your own little bubble doesn't mean that everybody else does as well.

#807 artista

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:00

I still dont understand why some people here are so surprised or disgusted with Ferrari or spanish base fans for try to clarify this overtake.

Seems a fact that there is a green flag, so no penalty is deserved to Vettel, but there are some mixed signals who should be clarify for the next time that happen something similar.

Even the F1 official app show yellow flag in the zone, included the marshall zone. Not looking for start again, Vettel do all right in this race, but FIA should clarify why a marshall is waving a green flag when others signals show yellow flag all the sector, thats all.

video f1 app

Just trying to help, don't think I'm attacking you, okay?

I'm a user of the F1 app and I use it a lot, so I've learned quite a few this year about how it works. The app works like the lights in Vettel steering: it reads what's going on in the electronic posts, but not what is going on in the marshal posts that don't have electronic flags. The app, colours the whole straight with the colour of the flashing flag just after turn 3, because it doesn't have information of what the marshal in the next marshal post, the one in the middle of the straight was showing.

In short, the app is showing the whole straight in yellow, because it does not know what the marshal in post 5 is waiving regarding the second half of the straight, which was green in this case.


#808 Diablobb81

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:00

Of course there are mixed signals, as you can see in leds of Vettels car and in f1 app, the yellow given by Race Control extend until turn 4. A marshall give green flag before turn 4 so there are mixed signals.


Did you forget to read the next sentence? No wonder you need clarification.

Not to mention that on the forum there was the same discussion about flags and lights some time ago (don't remember what triggered it). Read more.

Edited by Diablobb81, 30 November 2012 - 13:01.


#809 artista

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:05

Of course there are mixed signals, as you can see in leds of Vettels car and in f1 app, the yellow given by Race Control extend until turn 4. A marshall give green flag before turn 4 so there are mixed signals.

No, for the teams and the drivers there are no mixed signals. They know perfectly well where the marshal posts are. And they know perfectly well which marshal posts have also electronic panels and which ones don't have them. The information is even in the FIA webpage for everybody to see it!
Don't fool yourself, the drivers and the teams knew perfectly well that, in Interlagos, there is a marshal post mid in the back straight with no flashing lights and that they were not going to get the information about what that guy was waiving in the steering wheels or the F1-apps. They knew perfectly well that they had to actually look at the guy each lap to see what was the circuit "colour" for the second part of the straight.

#810 prty

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:07

Did anyone see this? Seems Alonso celebrated prematurely yesterday because the tweet was deleted shortly after?

Posted Image

Translation: "Not as sweet as winning on the circuit, but justice has been done and I am F1 World Champion for the 3rd time. Thank you!"

Spanish article: http://www.elnortede...1211291642.html


It a photoshop, and if you notice, the person who did it has Twitter in Catalonian language. What a coincidence :eek:

Well, it was retweeted by his followers. Just search for the hashtag #FelicidadesAlonso3. So it was out there.

Edit: Saw Raccoons post now. But confirmed fake by who? Alonso? Its weird, because it came from his account. Oh well..


What came from his account exactly? The image? Give me any account name and I will photoshop the same message into it.

Edited by prty, 30 November 2012 - 13:11.


#811 prty

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:11

The flag marshal will not be waving green flag in this instance unless he is specifically instructed by the clerk of the course to wave the said flag. He does not see the accident/incident and he is not under any instruction from his immediate superior to wave any flag, then his duty is to stay put and do nothing and just man his station.

The duty of the flag marshall is to notify/report as soon as possible by any means at his disposal (telephone, signals, courier etc.) all incidents or accidents which might occur along the section for which they are responsible.


If it's a SC restart for example, he would be waving green, as instructed. A flag marshall has lower reaction time than the lights if the visibility is not good, which makes it dangerous. You should always go for the more conservative input, wherever it comes from, that is, yellow over green.

Edited by prty, 30 November 2012 - 13:21.


#812 hmm

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:11

Check this out: http://www.sportmedi...-daccordo.shtml

FIA: "Vettel's pass legal". Do you agree?
No: 72%
Yes: 28%

Not everyone has been reading this thread, not everyone saw that hard to see green flag, but most did see a flashing yellow board, yellow lights on the dash,... There is/was genuine pressure on Ferrari in Italy and Spain, just because you live in your own little bubble doesn't mean that everybody else does as well.


Let's create a poll in Finland that this dispute is hurting F1 image and thus both Vettel and Alonso should be ripped of their points and whoever is next will be the champion. Actually I wonder what would the outcome of that poll be even worldwide..

#813 Higli

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:15

FIA: "Vettel's pass legal". Do you agree?
No: 72%
Yes: 28%

Oh yes, a billion of flies can't be wrong, let's dive into the shit!


#814 swerved

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:31

Check this out: http://www.sportmedi...-daccordo.shtml

FIA: "Vettel's pass legal". Do you agree?
No: 72%
Yes: 28%

Not everyone has been reading this thread, not everyone saw that hard to see green flag, but most did see a flashing yellow board, yellow lights on the dash,... There is/was genuine pressure on Ferrari in Italy and Spain, just because you live in your own little bubble doesn't mean that everybody else does as well.



Yes, but it was the pressure from Social Media that led them to seek clarification ? :lol:

Perhaps if everyone tweeted #buildabettercar they might win something.

O/T Nice to see Ferrari sponsoring the recovery trucks for 2013.



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#815 Infinityl

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:32

Just trying to help, don't think I'm attacking you, okay?

I'm a user of the F1 app and I use it a lot, so I've learned quite a few this year about how it works. The app works like the lights in Vettel steering: it reads what's going on in the electronic posts, but not what is going on in the marshal posts that don't have electronic flags. The app, colours the whole straight with the colour of the flashing flag just after turn 3, because it doesn't have information of what the marshal in the next marshal post, the one in the middle of the straight was showing.

In short, the app is showing the whole straight in yellow, because it does not know what the marshal in post 5 is waiving regarding the second half of the straight, which was green in this case.


Yes, this work exactly like Vettel steering because it take the same signal, but someone have to activate this signal, i supposed someone in Race Control extend the current yellow in turn 3 to the flash flag before turn 4. What i think is the marshall didnt noticed that change and still waving green flag. The f1 app video show a message "Yellow in track sector 4", this is the marshall sector , not until the yellow flag to the left who was showing before, so is clear someone put a yellow in his zone and he didnt notice.

So for a hundred metters we have yellow and green flag. Vettel do the right because he overtake under green flag, but Ferrari and base fan doing well asking about this for the next time.


Edited by Infinityl, 30 November 2012 - 13:32.


#816 Steve99

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:36

but Ferrari and base fan doing well asking about this for the next time.


Why? It's been this way for five years or so.


#817 BenettonB192

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:37

but Ferrari and base fan doing well asking about this for the next time.


They don't because the rules on this are clear and have been explianed for days over and over again. The way the spanish press and Ferrari handled this was just pathetic.

#818 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:43

It a photoshop, and if you notice, the person who did it has Twitter in Catalonian language. What a coincidence :eek:

What came from his account exactly? The image? Give me any account name and I will photoshop the same message into it.

You are right. It seems there can be no question that its a fake. I just noticed the hashtag was all over Twitter, and reacted to that. But that obviously doesnt mean anything and it doesnt have to come from his account at all.

#819 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:59

Domenicali "confirmed" a moment ago that they asked for a clarification because the pressure in the social media.


:rotfl: Better and better, you couldn't make it up.


McLaren spouted similar reasoning with their 'cool fuel' appeal.

MW - "We were surprised at, and don't really understand, the stewards' decision," he said. "Therefore, we feel that if we hadn't lodged our intention to appeal we would surely have been criticized by fans and Formula 1 insiders alike for not supporting our drivers' best interest."

Read more: http://ca.askmen.com...l#ixzz2DiHeUtbu

They both were just doing it for the fans!

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 30 November 2012 - 14:14.


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#820 artista

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:24

Yes, this work exactly like Vettel steering because it take the same signal, but someone have to activate this signal, i supposed someone in Race Control extend the current yellow in turn 3 to the flash flag before turn 4. What i think is the marshall didnt noticed that change and still waving green flag. The f1 app video show a message "Yellow in track sector 4", this is the marshall sector , not until the yellow flag to the left who was showing before, so is clear someone put a yellow in his zone and he didnt notice.

So for a hundred metters we have yellow and green flag. Vettel do the right because he overtake under green flag, but Ferrari and base fan doing well asking about this for the next time.

Nope, 'yellow in track sector 4' means there is yellow in sector 4, and that can be:
A) the first part of sector 4: from the electronic flag after turn 3 to the marshal middle in the back straight.

B) the second part of sector 4: from the marshal middle in the back straight to the electronic flag before turn 4

C) the whole sector 4: from the electronic flag after turn 3 to the electronic flag before turn 4.

In this case, whe had A) and it's perfectly logical it was case A). Why should they have had yellows all the straight long for a car in the previous curve?

If you think slowly, you will discover you have seen this same case many, many times before: car crashes in the curve before the straight, and cars aren't allowed to pass till mid straight where there is a guy waiving a green flag.

Actually, that poor marshal did his job right: he was the first guy after the danger zone and, therefore, it was his duty to signal the danger was over.

Look, it's not your job, nor is it mine, to know where the marshals are; and it's perfectly possible that we misunderstand or simply don't understand something, because we don't make a living out of F1.
But Ferrari does make a living out of F1 and they knew the marshal was there. And they knew the marshal was most probably waiving a green flag given that Maldonado's car was behind that point. Why they have let themselves get into this? Good question.


#821 SpaMaster

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:24

In the end it looks like this Vergne incident was already investigated during the race, and everyone agreed that nothing happened, even Pat Fry said that they looked at various situations, and none of them was ilegal.

And days later, Ferrari starts watching Youtube vids and go crazy, nice.

Shows how amateur and unprofessional they are!

#822 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:56

If it's a SC restart for example, he would be waving green, as instructed. A flag marshall has lower reaction time than the lights if the visibility is not good, which makes it dangerous. You should always go for the more conservative input, wherever it comes from, that is, yellow over green.

No argument from me on the SC restart. But the previous scenario that you put forth were under yellow-flag condition, and not under SC condition.

#823 drunkenmaster

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:27

The upright thing for Ferrari would have been to explain to their own fans why Vettel's pass was legal. Surely Ferrari has access to the HD driver feeds as well, so they should have spotted the green flag themselves. If Ferrari had explained it themselves to their fans the spectacle would have quickly ended.

But instead they ask the FIA for "clarification", implying that they think themselves Vettel's pass might have been illegal. And in their statmenent now they just say that they "accept the FIA decision", not that they really agree with it.

And a lot of their fanbase will now continue to think it was illegal, because they don't trust the judgement of the "MaFIA". :rolleyes:

Dirty play again by Ferrari. :down:


#824 sailor

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:32

The upright thing for Ferrari would have been to explain to their own fans why Vettel's pass was legal. Surely Ferrari has access to the HD driver feeds as well, so they should have spotted the green flag themselves. If Ferrari had explained it themselves to their fans the spectacle would have quickly ended.

But instead they ask the FIA for "clarification", implying that they think themselves Vettel's pass might have been illegal. And in their statmenent now they just say that they "accept the FIA decision", not that they really agree with it.

And a lot of their fanbase will now continue to think it was illegal, because they don't trust the judgement of the "MaFIA". :rolleyes:

Dirty play again by Ferrari. :down:


:up:
Good point. That would have painted them is much better light that they would have come out of it smelling of roses.

What they eventually did was more foolhardy play than dirty play here.


#825 superuser

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 16:03

The upright thing for Ferrari would have been to explain to their own fans why Vettel's pass was legal. Surely Ferrari has access to the HD driver feeds as well, so they should have spotted the green flag themselves. If Ferrari had explained it themselves to their fans the spectacle would have quickly ended.

But instead they ask the FIA for "clarification", implying that they think themselves Vettel's pass might have been illegal. And in their statmenent now they just say that they "accept the FIA decision", not that they really agree with it.

And a lot of their fanbase will now continue to think it was illegal, because they don't trust the judgement of the "MaFIA". :rolleyes:

Dirty play again by Ferrari. :down:


Good post


#826 michal2009b

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 16:45

Lol, Alonso overtook Glock under yellows, Red Bull is looking to fill a protest.












I was joking... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#827 paulrobs

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 16:53

It's the thread that just keeps on giving :lol:


Made me laugh.... :rotfl: :up:

#828 Higli

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 16:53

Shows how amateur and unprofessional they are!

They are Italian. :stoned:


#829 paulrobs

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 16:54

Just glad it's over and there'll be no change to the results after the event

#830 Realyn

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 17:04

So this thread is still going.

Wonder how much delusional Ferrari fans will post shocking new video proof in the coming weeks.

#831 D.M.N.

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 17:58

This thread has exhausted constructive discussion - thread closed I'm afraid.