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Your 2012 top 10 F1-drivers


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#101 mnmracer

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 13:01

3. Vettel - well, he got the job done, but I can't help thinking that DRS and kers have done him more good than anyone else; the actual racing bit has been taken out of the equation as instead of having to plan out a move in advance, which is one of Hamilton's (and Kobayashi's) skills, and which Vettel never satisfactorily learned, all he needs do is press a magic button.

Considering the lack of speed on that Red Bull, not even Lewis or Kamui could have done much overtaking without KERS.
As for DRS, I'm willing to bet Vettel has most non-DRS overtakes this season. He was the first post-lap 1 driver to overtake this season, on a Mercedes, without DRS.
Criticize him all you want, but saying Vettel in the RB8 would be nowhere without KERS is like saying Hamilton is nowhere without his Mercedes engine.

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#102 Coops3

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 13:08

1) Hamilton / Alonso
3) Vettel
4) Raikkonen
.
.
.
5) Hulkenberg
6) Perez
7) Button
8) Webber
9) Kobayashi
10) Rosberg

#103 Taxi

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 13:17

Vettel fans, and Vettel himself (i'm sure) won't mind that Alonso/Hamilton get the 1st place in the top 10 year after year as long as he wins the championship. :p

#104 Atreiu

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 13:18

I've had trouble making my mind, except for some 4 or 5 who were/seemed exceptional.

#105 race addicted

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 14:04

Vettel fans, and Vettel himself (i'm sure) won't mind that Alonso/Hamilton get the 1st place in the top 10 year after year as long as he wins the championship. :p

I am confused. Are you suggesting that those who put Ham or Alo top, did so because they're bitter or something, towards Vettel?

#106 Higli

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 14:16

What is so difficult about the correct spelling of the driver's names? :confused:

They are called Kimi Räikkönen and Nico Hülkenberg.

#107 Sakae

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 14:22

1. Sebastian Vettel - From nearly no hope to championship

2. Kimi Räikkönen - Almost perfect comeback year. The was just wasn't behaving that consistent in colder conditions and team made some bad errors...

3. Lewis Hamilton - Drove very well, it was just McLarens reliability and some errors that cost him dearly.

4. Jenson Button - Doesn't bring up any emotions. Drove quite consistently

5. Nico Hülkenberg - Nice driving, today especially.

6. Mark Webber - He's there, just getting his ass kicked by Vettel.

7. Felipe Massa - Last half of the season was very well driven from him. Even beaten Alonso.

8. Sergio Perez - Near win on a few occasions, but dumb mistakes lower his stocks..

9. Nico Rosberg - Beat Schuey... Car was bad so there wasn't much to be done.

10. Fernando Alonso - Boats sail with luck... He kept always downplaying the car to make himself look better than he really was. Last half of the season he got beaten by massa on several occasions.

You saved me a long post with exception Schumacher shall replace Webber, who moves to P9.


#108 Brandz07

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 14:27

Vettel/Raikkonen
Hamilton
Alonso/Button
Perez
Webber/Massa
Rosberg/Hulkenberg
Kobayashi/Kovalainen

Schumacher is in a class of his own.


This was a joke list right? Please explain..

Edited by Brandz07, 03 December 2012 - 14:28.


#109 Tarzaan

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 14:29

1 Michael Schumacher - Hey, what can I say, I'm biased. Just his presence makes F1 better!
2 Fernando Alonso - Good season in a car that started out as a total dog
3 Sebastian Vettel - Good season, not my personal fave but hey.
4 Kimi Raikkonen - Solid year, good racing and lots of laughs
5 Lewis Hamilton - good year, deserved more than he got
6 Jenson Button - good but a bit lacklustre at times
7 Kamui Kobayashi - Great guy, old fashioned 'racer'. hate to see him go
8 Felipe Massa - Ended well, despite a mostly horrible season
9 Pastor Maldonado - Crash magnet but does have talent we he lets it show
10 Nico Hulkenburg - Obvious future talent, more than his teammate


+1 :up:

But I rank Seb 1 place higher

#110 SpaMaster

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 15:16

Who is your unofficial top 10 for F1 2012?

1. Alonso - in a class of one IMO.
2= Vettel - thoroughly deserving WDC, won despite losing a clear victory.
2= Hamilton - lost two clear victories through reliability, got taken out three times, one puncture and lost endless points due to pitstops. Deserved to be in the title race.
4= Hulkenberg - crushed his team-mate and could have won a race.
4= Raikkonen - no comeback rust, 100% finishing record, could have won more if not for qualifying weakness.
6. Schumacher - cut his errors down to just two, got pole around Monaco aged 43, lost two podiums + endless points through reliability and deserved so much better.
7. Rosberg - great victory in China, could also have won at Monaco, didn't make endless high-profile mistakes like many potential top 10 candidates.
8. Petrov - outperformed Kovalainen despite less testing and receiving updates later than him.
9. Button - three dominant victories but spent a quarter of the season in a developmental dead-end.
10. Massa - hopeless start but massive improvement and even looked to have the qualifying edge over Alonso when it was too late.

Big omissions: Perez/Maldonado/Grosjean had top 10 pace, but lost far too many points.

You could say Alonso was arguably the best, but in a class of one? Sorry, that was quite an exaggeration. Also, Massa is definitely not a top 10 driver. He has been the biggest underperformer for three years in running. If he starts the next season, like how he finished in the last few races, then we can talk.

Edited by SpaMaster, 03 December 2012 - 16:19.


#111 bourbon

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 15:19

Come on!!!


This was a joke list right? Please explain..



For me, Button is a top driver, capable of winning the WDC in any given year if he is on with the car. Please explain why you feel otherwise.

Edited by bourbon, 03 December 2012 - 15:21.


#112 Brandz07

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 15:30

For me, Button is a top driver, capable of winning the WDC in any given year if he is on with the car. Please explain why you feel otherwise.


Fair enough, but you think he matched Fernando's performances in 2012?

#113 SpaMaster

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 15:42

..
4= Button - never looked like being able to handle his teammate or challenge for the WDC. Stolid driver though.

5= Raikkonen - great comeback, but displayed alot of rustiness & qualifying weakness.
..

Qualifying weakness? Unlike the driver ahead of him? There is no way Button was a better driver than Raikkonen this year. Button was in a better car, yet finished two positions behind Raikkonen.

#114 maverick69

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 15:47

Just going for the top teams.


1. Hamilton, Alonso........ and it pains me to say it...... Vettel.....

Hamilton was immense...... And was quite frankly mugged of a challenge for the WDC by....... Well..... We know.......

Alonso was also immense. Capitalised on his luck - drove like a hero. Just a shame that it all got a little pissy at the end - combined with Massa outperforming him. If it wasn't for that then he would be clear no1 IMO.

Fingerboy. Well? What can you say? Despite a constant push to clip the wings of his car he grabbed, and pretty much maximized every realistic opportunity he had. Perfect example of team and driver delivering the goods.

2. Kimi. The enigma that is Kimi....... I'm not gonna say a lot for fear of getting lynched by his rather passionate fanbase..... Apart from he loves to bounce around between the gap of the good and the great.........

3. Webber, JB, Massa, Grow John........ Well....... Not the greatest seasons eh? All showed skill and brilliance........ But there was a lot of dross in between........

#115 race addicted

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 16:00

For me, Button is a top driver, capable of winning the WDC in any given year if he is on with the car. Please explain why you feel otherwise.

Oh, you've misunderstood then. This thread is about their performance, performance, this year. 2012.

#116 kpchelsea

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 17:23

I believe the best 3 drivers in F1 are Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton and all 3 had great seasons, Vettel came out on top basically because he had a faster car than Alonso and more reliable car/team than Hamilton. In terms of mistakes they all arguably had one, Hamilton putting himself at risk with a driver of Maldonado's rep, Vettel not showing more caution against an erratic driver like Karthikeyan, Alonso being too agressive against Kimi. Alonso was leading this until the seasons end when Massa all of a sudden started to outperform him, Hamilton had a couple of poorish outings, Australia and Spa, Vettel struggled at times at the beginning of the season when the Red Bull wasn't the fastest car relative to Webber a prime example being Monaco, when the car was the best he was once again very dominant. I think given the amount of help needed by Alonso from Massa at seasons end and the closeness between Vettel and Webber in the first half of the season when the Red Bull wasn't at its best i'm going for:-

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Vettel

4. Raikkonen - Incredible consistency finishing every racing lap and taking 3rd in the WDC, negatives were mainly in qualifying in the first half of the season and a teammate who at times could beat him but somewhat fell apart with an inabilty to finish races so in the end offered no kind of assesment to decide just how good a season Kimi had.

For the rest its hard to distinguish because of relative performances of the cars, some drivers don't get a look in because the cars are so poor, even the Mercedes drivers are not in many top 10 mainly because of the car.

5. Hulkenberg - First half of the season not great but understandable given his inexperience and newness to the team, but second half really impressive totally dominating his teammate and probably would have won the last race if not for an unfortunate mistake.

6. Button - Not a great season for Button caused mainly by his midseason woes but still at times put in some topline performances

7. Webber - Was in contention for awhile but fell away somewhat when the Vettel juggernaut came along, still a safe pair of hands though brought home the WCC

8. Maldonado - Impressive turn of pace which brought him a win, too many crashes though, seemed to be getting a handle on that at seasons end

9. Perez - 3 podium finishes, was it luck or inspired? Anyway generally speaking over the season he had the beating of his teammate

10.Schumacher/Rosberg - Both looked good at the beginning of the season when the car was good but the last two thirds of the season the car was somewhat pitiful with poor reliability thrown in making it difficult to fully assess the two. They seemed to perform relatively similar to one another and i think its fair to say that both are much better than the car.

Absentees

Massa - Makes a case with performances in last third of season but first two thirds of season were quite shocking

Grosjean - In terms of speed should be in but inability to finish races was just not good enough

Torro Rosso - Impossible to rank with two rookie drivers and a poorish car, Ricciardo seemed the better of the two though

Caterham - Drivers cancel each other out, one a poor qualifier, the other a poor racer

Marussia - Hard to evaluate Glock against yet another rookie

HRT - What can be said?

#117 RealRacing

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 17:29

Samurai or driving-wise?


#118 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 17:38

1. Fernando Alonso - By far the best driver of this season. Had the fourth, sometimes fifth quickest car of the season, but still managed to finish second in the championship. True, circumstances played his way many times, but as a driver you still have to be at the right place at the right time. Alonso did that magnificently.

2. Lewis Hamilton - Despite only finishing fourth in the championship, I'll say he was the fastest driver of this season. If only his McLaren didn't fail him so much, he would have won the championship easily.

3. Kimi Raikkonen - Close call with Vettel for the final podium position, but I'm choosing Kimi. After being away for two years, and coming back like this is amazing, especially after watching Schumacher fail to do so. Most consistant driver of the season completing every race lap. Loads of podiums and a win in Abu Dhabi as his absolute highlight.

4. Sebastian Vettel - World champion yes, but I only rate him fourth. Had a poor first half of the season with a lot of slight errors. Helped by his car and Red Bull favoured tracks at the end of the season he managed to win the title, but also made errors there.

5. Pastor Maldonado - He has had many incidents yes, but with his amazing win in Spain I rate him fifth best driver of the season. He's had a lot of bad luck, but his speed, especially in qualifying, was mindblowing at times. If only he can get more consistent, right now he's as Montoya was.

6. Nico Hülkenberg - Close with Sergio Pérez, but Nico has made far less errors. He needed to shake off some rust at the start of the season, but in the second half he blew Paul di Resta away. Too bad he's wasting one year of his career at Sauber next year. I'll also believe Force India will be stronger than Sauber, so he should have stayed.

7. Sergio Pérez - Three great podiums, with his best one at Monza. Too bad he dropped off after his move to McLaren was announced. Will be interesting to see how he copes with the pressure.

8. Romain Grosjean - Despite his many first lap errors, he did remarkably well this season. Some amazing drives, especially in Canada and Valencia. This proves Romain has the speed. Now he needs build confidence if he is to beat his teammate.

9. Jenson Button - Not a very good season, but still worthy of top ten. Great start and finish to the season, but mysterious balance issues cost him dearly. Have my doubts he can lead McLaren next year.

10. Felipe Massa - Improved mightely in the second half of the season. Deserves a spot in the top ten drivers. In the last few races he was even quicker than Alonso. Let's hope he can maintain this next season.

#119 olliek88

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 19:33

Tough to choose but

1. Fernando Alonso - Virtually faultless all season, maybe partly responsible for Japan exit but massively "outperformed" the cars potential.

2. Lewis Hamilton - His best season in my opinion, mistakes pretty much gone and this years unlucky driver.

3. Sebastian Vettel - Not perfect like 2011 but once he got over his early season troubles he was close to his best, finally put the "can't race" jibes to bed.

4. Kimi Raikkonen - Unsurprisingly lacked one lap pace at times but raced extremely well and super consistent.

5. Nico Hulkenberg - Very close with Di Resta until Singapore after which he stepped up a gear and showed glimpses of being a real talent, so nearly pulled off a famous win.

6. Felipe Massa - Much publicised troubles early on but gradually grew as the season went on and troubled Alonso at times near the end.

7. Daniel Ricciardo - Shone (for me) in a very poor car, comfortably quicker than JEV over one lap all year and in races too after Monaco. Looks promising.

8. Pastor Maldonado - A seriously quick driver and some brilliant qualifying performances, continued erratic driving habits at times but calmed down eventually.

9. Paul Di Resta - A high quality close battle with Nico until Singapore, struggled with conservative tyres in the final races resulting in a disappointing finish.

10. Sergio Perez- Some real stand out results but a lot of them owed to strategy, lacked consistency. Clumsy & erratic after Mclaren announcement.

Honestly the bottom 5 were so hard to pick, could easily change them depending on my mood. Special mention for Pic, good performance in very tough circumstances.

Edited by olliek88, 03 December 2012 - 19:34.


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#120 jals99

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 19:42

1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Vettel
4. Kimi
5. Petrov
6. Hulkenberg
7. Button
8. Perez
9. Ricciardo
10. Pic


#121 Lord_Shaitan

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 19:58

1. Alonso - He was on the podium again and again. Watching his races I was consistently asking myself 'how did he do that?'. He's more than a man, he's a machine...no he's the Ferdinator ;) !!! God, what a season performance...
2. Hamilton - It's just a shame Mac gave him such unreliable crap. His best season so far in terms of quality.
3. Vettel - Great show with the best car
4. Raikkonen - Mighty comeback! With some stronger strart of the season he could threaten Alonso and Vettel
5. Hulkenberg - What a season by Hulk. I'd even say he was the best out there in the 2nd part of the season... Great talent and so mature already.
6. Button - Couple of impressive starts but mostly just in the shadow of Hamilton
7. Webber - He was as good in some races as he was bad in the others
8. Massa - Very strong 2nd half of the season. Being faster than Alonso in a few races in a row is really something!
9. Petrov - He saved Catherham's ass in Brasil and was doing against Kovalainen all season long better than anyone could imagine
10. Grosjean - many mistakes and some unnecessary crashes but his speed...it's marvelous! I believe nowdays only Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel have better one-lap speed than "RoGro"

Edited by Lord_Shaitan, 03 December 2012 - 20:03.


#122 A.Fant

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 20:35

I was quite bored and compiled the lists into an excel file to determine the results if the F1 scoring system was used:

1. Alonso - 1656
2. Hamilton - 1468
3. Vettel - 1410
4. Räikkönen - 1089
5. Hülkenberg - 643
6. Button - 491
7. Webber - 251
8. Perez - 209
9. Rosberg - 196
10. Schumacher - 178
11. Maldonado - 154
12. Massa - 117
13. Kobayashi - 102
14. Petrov - 59
15. Ricciardo - 42
16. Glock - 19
17. Grosjean - 17
18. Di Resta - 17
19. de la Rosa - 16
20. Kovalainen - 9
21. Pic - 7
22= Vergne - 0
22= Senna - 0
22= Karthikeyan - 0

If you want to change Schumacher's two 1st places to "more reasonable" 4ths or 5ths, he loses 26 to 30 points and moves down to 11th. I'm only including this paragraph since apart from those two votes, no one else than the top 4 got 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place votes, and only Hülkenberg (5) and Button (4) got any 4th place votes apart from the top 4. Schumacher's best votes were two 5ths apart from his 1st place votes.

Only lists with 9+ entries were used to compile this data, 79 in total, with Lord_Shaitan's being the last.

#123 Taxi

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 20:50

I am confused. Are you suggesting that those who put Ham or Alo top, did so because they're bitter or something, towards Vettel?

Not bitter, just don't respect Vettel enough. A guy who in 4 seasons, wins 3 championships and a 2nd must be pretty good. This year he fought back 40 points, [a win and a 3rd] and won the championship after a series of set backs in Abu Dhabi and Brazil. But people, still think [ maybe co's he's so young] that he can't be that good. It must be Newey, or the car. Year after year it's "the car" and others are higher rated. No problem, he keeps wining it on the track and other on the rankings until his numbers are not to be ignored.




#124 bourbon

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 21:59

Fair enough, but you think he matched Fernando's performances in 2012?


Curve for Curve? No, but no two drivers did. Button got more top 5 qualifying results, but Fernando got more top 5 race results. Button had to race his very competitive teammate for the lead of the race and race position throughout the year, whereas Massa started off slow and compliant, and ended compliant, so Alonso had that advantage. Button had more problems at race time and while we know he can come through the grid (i.e., Canada 2011), he couldn't muster a challenge when his Macca was slow starting, so he wasn't on with the car as much as Hamilton was. But we saw the reverse last year over at Macca. Alonso's car was tuned for him, so despite the car running a bit behind Macca and Red Bull at times, his challenges were a bit smoother. Ferrari was not always slow - I do recall when it was running in tandem on race day and managed to get ahead of the other top two. I did not fall for the ridiculous hype of the slow and trodging Ferrari car - it was miserably slow at some tracks, but only in terms of Macca and Red Bull. Otherwise it was still able to contend for the top. Other days it ran like a cherub. Macca and Red Bull had hard days, so it is relative.

Edited by bourbon, 03 December 2012 - 22:39.


#125 Anderis

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 22:05

1. Hamilton- I think he has more raw speed than Alonso, so he has got the 1st place in my ranking due to the fact he was more clean and faultless than he used to be in his earlier F1 years. Regularly outperformed his team-mate who is a former WDC and apart from two or three races, it's hard to see what where and when could he do better. Would be a WDC this year perhaps if this team was as reliable as Ferrari.
2. Alonso- Could have been first if not the fact he was being matched by Massa in the final few races of the year. Did a stunning job in terms of maximising the car's potential. No need to say more.
3. Vettel- It's hard to see any obvious fault in him, but I've got a feeling he was not as good compared to Alonso and Hamilton as he had been in 2010 or 2011, but it was rather caused by the fact of magnificent performances by those two. He was beaten fair and square by Webber plenty of times in first half of the season, though.

... significant margin:

4. Raikkonen- Outqualified by Grosjean plenty of times and matched by his team-mate on some occassions early in the season (which is no shame since Grosjean was surprisingly quick). But very reasonable job in most of the races, getting better and more convincing later in the season. Magnificent in avoiding problems. Consistent over a season and outstanding in some races like Hungary or Abu Dhabi. Isn't rated among the top3 by me because he failed to maximise the car's potential in qualifying too often. But has potential to be even better next year.
5. Hulkenberg- First half of the season not that impressive, but still very steady. Among the best in second half of the season. He has outshone the rest of the midfield in terms of consistency over the year. Some great flashes late in the season, like Belgium, Korea, Brazil etc.. Can't wait what will he show racing in F1 for two consecutive years, and in better car, hopefully next year.
6. Button- When he coped with his mid-season problems, he was doing reasonable job. Looked even better than Hamilton in first 4 races. Second half of the season good, but not magnificent. What more can I write. Not as good as Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel, but better than inconsistent midfield performers even including his mid-season struggles.
7. Webber- Good and consistent 1st half of the season, 2 well deserved wins, plenty of qualifying wins with Vettel. Second half of the year somehow unspectacular, but enough to get higher place in my ranking than most of those inconsistent performers from midfield.
8. Rosberg- When the car was good, he was performing really well, among the top point-scorers between China and Canada. But he seemed to struggle a bit with consistency and driving on a wet circuit. Definetely not as good season as the previous 3. Will be interesting to see how he can do against Hamilton in a more consistent car than this season. Hopefully it will get him more motivation.
9. di Resta- Good and consistent 1st half of the season. Not so good 2nd half of the year but I think it was more magnificent Hulk's performances than his bad driving that made him look worse in 2nd half of the year. He rarely was at obvious fault IMO.
10. Perez- Could be around 6-7th position if not plenty of faults in second half of the season. Plenty of impressive drives in 1st half of the year, despite missing some opportunities due to punctures, collisions with Maldonado etc. He maximised the car's potential better than other quick but mistake-prone drivers like Maldonado and Grosjean IMO, so he is there.

#126 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:47

Vettel
Alonso
Raikkonen
Hulkenburg
Rosberg
Hamiton
Button
Webber
Perez
Massa

#127 Robertsf

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:28

1.Vettel
2. Räikkönen
3. Hamilton
4. Button
5. Massa
6. Perez
7. Alonso
8. Webber
9. Hulkenberg
10. Rosberg

#128 apoka

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:06

3. Vettel- It's hard to see any obvious fault in him, but I've got a feeling he was not as good compared to Alonso and Hamilton as he had been in 2010 or 2011, but it was rather caused by the fact of magnificent performances by those two. He was beaten fair and square by Webber plenty of times in first half of the season, though.

I think that's a myth, sine I follow both in live timing in most races. He was often beaten by Webber in qualy, but in the races it was different with Vettel having an edge in almost all races. He lost quite a few points, because of the Nahrain incident and the Valencia alternator failure. Webber is no slouch, so it takes some time to make up around 40 points in the WDC relative to Webber (since he gained on those occassions). Webber had his share of problems too, but mostly in the second half.

Anyway, my list is:

1. Vettel
2. Alonso
3. Hamilton
(all 3 more or less the same and very impressive throughout the season - any order is fine)
4. Kimi
5. Hulkenberg
(both impressed me, but both needed some time to shine)
6. Rosberg
7. Schumacher
8. Webber
9. Perez
10. Di Resta
(pretty hard to find any appropriate order here and I find it extremely hard to compare e.g. Webber and Glock or Maldonado with anyone since I am unsure how good Senna is)


#129 santori

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:05

1. Alonso - Relentless

2. Hamilton - the only thing that puts him behind Alonso, for me, is that he seems to be slightly more likely to get into an accident with someone else.

3. Vettel - Excellent, of course, but flattered by a great car and an off-form team-mate.

4. Raikkonen - Behind Vettel because of his slight fade part of the way through the season and the feeling that his qualifying and overtaking haven't been quite what they were.


Then it gets a little harder.


5. Hulkenberg, probably

6. Button? Obviously he had problems with this year's car but when he was good he was very good.

7. Perez? Very good. Maybe also a very good car.


And then.... I was very pleased to see Massa back to being Massa in the last races but the rest of the year knocks him out of the top ten.
Webber was better but a lot of his year was pretty grim, too, especially the end.
Halfway through the season Grosjean would have been well up there but not now (I think he can be, though, and Lotus should keep him)

8. Rosberg? Won a race. The gap to Schumacher wasn't as big as the scoreline suggests, though. Maybe the car was just that bad.

9. Kobayashi? Beaten by his team-mate but only just.

10. Glock? I really don't know. He just had the edge on Pic, although Pic was my rookie of the year. I could put Maldonado here and I sort of want to but he was so frustrating.


Rookie of the Year: Charles Pic. Vergne, Ricciardo and Grosjean were all very promising, though.


#130 Sakae

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:15

Tough to choose but

1. Fernando Alonso - Virtually faultless all season, maybe partly responsible for Japan exit but massively "outperformed" the cars potential.


Forgive me, but that hardly makes any sense, and just reinforces my believe, how myths are being created on this BB.

#131 Cult

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:27

Forgive me, but that hardly makes any sense, and just reinforces my believe, how myths are being created on this BB.


I don't think the comment was intended to be taken literally, "outperforming" a car means driving much faster than other drivers are capable. I don't think they meant Alonso went faster than the car was actually capable of as that's physically impossible.

#132 gillesthegenius

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:38

I don't think the comment was intended to be taken literally, "outperforming" a car means driving much faster than other drivers are capable. I don't think they meant Alonso went faster than the car was actually capable of as that's physically impossible.


Except Felipe Massa, who showed that he was sleeping during the first half of the year and that he could even be faster than Fernando when when he woke up, who else are those other drivers? Im seriously curious. :confused:

#133 Anderis

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:49

I think that's a myth, sine I follow both in live timing in most races. He was often beaten by Webber in qualy, but in the races it was different with Vettel having an edge in almost all races.

The fact is that Webber outperformed Vettel considering the whole weekend in races like China, Monaco and Great Britain. I don't insist his race pace was better, but he did better in those weekends considering both qualifying and races together.

#134 gillesthegenius

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:21

The fact is that Webber outperformed Vettel considering the whole weekend in races like China, Monaco and Great Britain. I don't insist his race pace was better, but he did better in those weekends considering both qualifying and races together.


I agree. But to cite those races to prove that Vettel was slightly off his game in the early part of the season, while totally ignoring Fernando's blip in form towards the latter part of it to claim that Fernando was flawless, is double standards imo.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 04 December 2012 - 09:24.


#135 Sakae

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:25

I don't think the comment was intended to be taken literally, "outperforming" a car means driving much faster than other drivers are capable. I don't think they meant Alonso went faster than the car was actually capable of as that's physically impossible.

How a poster does know that Alonso got everything out of his Ferrari? Our subjective and qualitative perceptions are just that, but luckily we have also a scoring point system and for whatever reasons, Alonso did not have enough of those, thus perception of him being best has a crack somewhere in track related reality.


#136 mnmracer

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:37

I agree. But to cite those races to prove that Vettel was slightly off his game in the early part of the season, while totally ignoring Fernando's blip in form towards the latter part of it to claim that Fernando was flawless, is double standards imo.

This.

Webber has outperformed Vettel in 3 races.
Massa has outperformed Alonso in 3 races.
Button has outperformed Hamilton in (more than) 3 races.

To single out Vettel as the one 'off his game' is not a fair representation of the season.

Edited by mnmracer, 04 December 2012 - 09:45.


#137 Kelateboy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:39

1. Vettel
2. Alonso
3. Räikkönen
4. Hamilton
5. Hulkenberg
6. Button
7. Maldonado
8. Perez
9. Webber
10. Massa


#138 Rinehart

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:52

2012

1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Vettel

4. Button
5. Hulkenburg
6. Raikkonnen

7. The rest



#139 apoka

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:34

The fact is that Webber outperformed Vettel considering the whole weekend in races like China, Monaco and Great Britain. I don't insist his race pace was better, but he did better in those weekends considering both qualifying and races together.

OK. "He was beaten fair and square by Webber plenty of times in first half of the season, though." sounded a bit different, which is why I posted.  ;) Actually, Silverstone may have been the only race in which he matched Vettel in race pace. In China and Monaco, finishing behind was mostly due to start position (in my opinion, backed up by live timing). Anyways, I agree that looking at those 3 weekends as a whole (qualy and race), Webber was more successful.


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#140 race addicted

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:54

Ridiculous. Webber was a good match for Vettel in plenty of races and faster in a handful. There's a term called "underlying pace" which I thought most forumers knew about. Looking at that, Webber often had the pace but dropped back to where he couldn't stretch his legs for more than a few laps.

#141 apoka

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 14:01

Ridiculous. Webber was a good match for Vettel in plenty of races and faster in a handful. There's a term called "underlying pace" which I thought most forumers knew about. Looking at that, Webber often had the pace but dropped back to where he couldn't stretch his legs for more than a few laps.

Maybe, you can post those handful of races here (before it gets too offtopic): http://forums.autosp...w...&start=2080

#142 F1FAN013

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 14:02

This.

Webber has outperformed Vettel in 3 races.
Massa has outperformed Alonso in 3 races.
Button has outperformed Hamilton in (more than) 3 races.

To single out Vettel as the one 'off his game' is not a fair representation of the season.


Sorry you wrote more than three races about Button outperforming Hamilton. What other races apart from Australia, Belgium and maybe Japan (unless you don't take into the damaged car Hamilton drove that race) did Jenson outperform Hamilton this season?

Edited by F1FAN013, 04 December 2012 - 14:03.


#143 F1FAN013

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 14:09

1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Vettel
4. Raikkonen
5. Hulkenberg
6. Button
7. Webber
8. Perez
9. Rosberg
10. Massa

It is really difficult to separate Hamilton and Alonso for top spot.

Edited by F1FAN013, 04 December 2012 - 14:10.


#144 mnmracer

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 14:15

Sorry you wrote more than three races about Button outperforming Hamilton. What other races apart from Australia, Belgium and maybe Japan (unless you don't take into the damaged car Hamilton drove that race) did Jenson outperform Hamilton this season?

Australia, China, Belgium and Germany. Disregarding the start, aside from the few laps he battled with Vettel/Alonso, I feel Button was better.

#145 whitevisor

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 14:44

1. Hamilton - only driver that made no mistakes while dominating his teammate in Qualifying. I can't see the excuse why people won't put him first? :confused:

2. Alonso - Should have won the WDC if he had the car to fight for it. I felt he choked a little bit in the last part.
3. Vettel - Worthy Champion backed up by his drives and outclassing Webber. But allowed Webber to get too close in 1st half of season. Choked in Abu Dhabi and Brazil.
4. Raikkonen - Consistent driving, but can't be rated higher because his teammate has more pace than him.
5. Hulkenburg - Very good performance, I should have put him first for shutting up the Di Resta worshipers! lol
6. Petrov - Easily overlooked, but he jumped into a car built for garden gnomes (trulli and heikki) and dominated Heikki in the last third of the season.
7. Rosberg - Fairly good perfrormance, I belief MSC only got close because Rosberg was testing the car during the weekends.
8. Button - Only the three wins saved him. His performance was forgettable. It's almost like he wasn't there in the middle of the season.
9. MSC - Flashes of speed here and there, did well in qualifying and races.
10. Massa - I would rate him 4th if i were only looking at the last 4 races.

Edited by whitevisor, 04 December 2012 - 14:44.


#146 UPRC

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 14:51

1. Alonso: World class driving in a car that wasn't always up to the challenge. Alonso's best season by a mile.
2. Hamilton: I was genuinely impressed by him. If the car hadn't let him down so many times, we would've had a three way battle in Brazil.
3. Raikkonen: In what looked like the third best car of the season, Raikkonen did amazing.
4. Vettel: Took great advantage of an amazing car in the second half of the season, but struggled to make the best of a mediocre car early on.
5. Hulkenberg: Destroyed di Resta very thoroughly and was super quick. Why is he moving to Sauber and not Ferrari or McLaren? Seriously!
6. Webber: Started off promising, but Webber seemed to lose a lot of steam once the car improved and Vettel stormed away with everything.
7. Button: Had some really great drives, but his lengthy issue with car problems definitely hurt him.
8. Kobayashi: While Perez may have had some surprisingly high finishes, Kamui was Mr. Consistent this year. A real shame if he's out of F1 next year.
9. Petrov: I don't think anyone expected him to match Kovalainen, let alone snag 10th back for Caterham after Marussia stole it.
10. Schumacher: What should've been pole in Monaco was magic. Was on fire early on in the season, but a piss poor Mercedes really let him down.

#147 SpaMaster

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 16:14

1. Raikkonen/Vettel/Alonso - Such a close season it is difficult to separate the top driver particularly when they were all driving for different teams. All three were equally good in their own right.
4. Hamilton - I can't put him in the top 3 because he was mostly not involved in the title fight at all. His car broke so many times that it is an incomplete season and you don't know what he would have done if his season would have gone full distance. Could have been better than the above 3 or behind them. Since we don't know, I put him conservatively behind similar to a case of a driver in a slower car not being able to show much more to be in the crux of things. He obviously did much better than Button, and Button won't be in my rankings.
5. Hulkenberg - Was phenomenal in the second half of the season. I hope Sauber is a better car for him next year.

Other drivers are not worth ranking in any top driver category.

#148 olliek88

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 19:23

Forgive me, but that hardly makes any sense, and just reinforces my believe, how myths are being created on this BB.


I didn't mean he was actually driving it faster than it was capable of, as you say, that doesn't make sense and isn't actually possible. I meant that in that car he shouldn't have been so close to winning the title but he was because he took pretty much every opportunity that came his way and made hardly any mistakes whilst driving on the limit. The Ferrari was, at best, the 3rd quickest car over the course of the whole season and as such he shouldn't of been so close to the WDC. That was the "potential" of the car, Alonso outperformed it by a fair bit.

Edited by olliek88, 04 December 2012 - 19:26.


#149 kpchelsea

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 20:11

Australia, China, Belgium and Germany. Disregarding the start, aside from the few laps he battled with Vettel/Alonso, I feel Button was better.

Hamilton had a grid penalty in China and finished only 5 seconds behind Button, and in Germany got a puncture which damaged his car

#150 mnmracer

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 20:41

Hamilton had a grid penalty in China and finished only 5 seconds behind Button, and in Germany got a puncture which damaged his car

Button started 5th in China, Hamilton 7th ;)
And even with the puncture in Germany I had expected more of Hamilton; he lost >30 seconds after it happened.