Jump to content


Photo

Your 2012 top 10 F1-drivers


  • Please log in to reply
233 replies to this topic

#151 gillesthegenius

gillesthegenius
  • Member

  • 2,534 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:34

I didn't mean he was actually driving it faster than it was capable of, as you say, that doesn't make sense and isn't actually possible. I meant that in that car he shouldn't have been so close to winning the title but he was because he took pretty much every opportunity that came his way and made hardly any mistakes whilst driving on the limit. The Ferrari was, at best, the 3rd quickest car over the course of the whole season and as such he shouldn't of been so close to the WDC. That was the "potential" of the car, Alonso outperformed it by a fair bit.


Not quite. Lets just put this 'Alonso was flawless all season' bs aside and take a closer look.

1) the fastest car, Mclaren, took itself out of the equation with its own many faults, leaving #2 (RBR) and #3 (Ferrari) to fight it out for the title.
2) both Fernando and Sebastian got involved in two major incidents over the season, one of them being a racing incident (Rai/Sen) and the other resulting in the causing driver getting a penalty (Gro/Kar). Fernando's 2 incidents roughly cost him 20-25 points (3rd/4th in Belgium and 4th/5th in Suzuka ), while Seb's incidents cost him 15-20 points (3rd/4th in Malaysia and 3rd/4th in Brazil). (net gain of about 5 points for Seb)
3) but Sebastian, inspite of having the faster car, also lost a rough estimate of about 35 points (42 to points to Alonso when you consider that Alonso gained 7 extra points due to his retirement in Valencia)due to his 2 car failures. (net gain of about 42 points for Fernando)
4) both Seb and Fernando were outperformed by their team mates for 3 races each this season. But while, Mark was allowed to take points away from Seb on all 3 occassions, Felipe wasnt allowed to on even one instance. If you take one position away from Fernando in those 3 races it comes to 9 points, but I shall halve it and make it 5 points. (net gain for Fernando 5 points)

Conclusion:
Net gain for Fernando = 47 points
Net gain for Seb = 5 points
Final result = A net gain of 42 points for Fernando

So you might say Fernando had a much slower car and he came to within 3 points of Seb. But one must ask the question of why? And the answer lies in the reliability of the RBR, for if not for its failings, Sebastian might have come close to sealing the title with two races left.

Advertisement

#152 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:25

I didn't mean he was actually driving it faster than it was capable of, as you say, that doesn't make sense and isn't actually possible. I meant that in that car he shouldn't have been so close to winning the title but he was because he took pretty much every opportunity that came his way and made hardly any mistakes whilst driving on the limit. The Ferrari was, at best, the 3rd quickest car over the course of the whole season and as such he shouldn't of been so close to the WDC. That was the "potential" of the car, Alonso outperformed it by a fair bit.

I would differentiate between "quickest" cars, however that is determined, and "best for a race" car, and herein lays the crux of the issue. No one really knows but Ferrari itself how good actually Scuderia Ferrari was. They had their ups and downs as others had, but under normal racing conditions car was pretty much competitive as seen on the track, and to simply declare it as not equal to RBR and McLaren, one would need access to a lot of private data. I haven't seen those, thus I am not sure that Alonso has, or hasn't got all out of that car what he could and should, but obviously I somewhat doubt that.

Edited by Sakae, 05 December 2012 - 04:27.


#153 OS X

OS X
  • Member

  • 195 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:47

Webber has outperformed Vettel in 3 races.
Massa has outperformed Alonso in 3 races.
Button has outperformed Hamilton in (more than) 3 races.


For this to be even the slightest bit plausible, you would have to assume Massa=Webber=Button.

Is this the case, in your opinion?

Edited by OS X, 07 December 2012 - 08:50.


#154 seahawk

seahawk
  • Member

  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:02

So you might say Fernando had a much slower car and he came to within 3 points of Seb. But one must ask the question of why? And the answer lies in the reliability of the RBR, for if not for its failings, Sebastian might have come close to sealing the title with two races left.


On the other hand a RBR as reliable as the Ferrari might also be a bit slower, so ..... those what ifs are pointless. Although I must admit that without a doubt Lewis was taken out of the WDC hunt by his team´s errors.

#155 rentonB

rentonB
  • Member

  • 172 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:39

1.RAI
2.HAM
3.ALO
4.HUL
5.VET
6.MAS
7.BUT
8.PET
9.WEB
10.KOB

Edited by rentonB, 07 December 2012 - 09:39.


#156 mnmracer

mnmracer
  • Member

  • 1,972 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:15

For this to be even the slightest bit plausible, you would have to assume Massa=Webber=Button.

Is this the case, in your opinion?

I think they're quite equal: lightning fast on their day, but not consistently 'the fast' enough to be one of the great 3.

#157 wj_gibson

wj_gibson
  • Member

  • 2,126 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:46

Alonso
Hamilton
Vettel
Raikkonen
Hulkenburg
Webber
Button
Perez
Massa
Maldonado

#158 slmk

slmk
  • Member

  • 4,398 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 07 December 2012 - 13:10

1. Raikkonen/Vettel/Alonso - Such a close season it is difficult to separate the top driver particularly when they were all driving for different teams. All three were equally good in their own right.
4. Hamilton - I can't put him in the top 3 because he was mostly not involved in the title fight at all. His car broke so many times that it is an incomplete season and you don't know what he would have done if his season would have gone full distance. Could have been better than the above 3 or behind them. Since we don't know, I put him conservatively behind similar to a case of a driver in a slower car not being able to show much more to be in the crux of things. He obviously did much better than Button, and Button won't be in my rankings.
5. Hulkenberg - Was phenomenal in the second half of the season. I hope Sauber is a better car for him next year.

Other drivers are not worth ranking in any top driver category.


You are kidding yourself if you think Raikkonen was ever involved in the WDC fight. He never had the pace Saturday and lacked the killer instinct on Sunday (Hungary, Bahrain) and ultimately had to be gifted a win to be a race winner.

He did great in his comeback, very well indeed (drove consistently), but on par with VET and ALO, no way. Even less HAM. He lacked the outright pace to take it up to the next level, and the fact that he was outpaced by Grosjean so often is a worrying sign (as Grosjean was thoroughly destroyed by ALO).

My ranking:

1- HAM / ALO
2- VET
3- HUL
4- RAI / MAL
5- WEB

Edited by slmk, 07 December 2012 - 13:14.


#159 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 07 December 2012 - 15:40

You are kidding yourself if you think Raikkonen was ever involved in the WDC fight.

He was involved in the title fight more than Hamilton, Button and Webber. He was in the title fight until Abu Dhabi the race he won.

He never had the pace Saturday and lacked the killer instinct on Sunday (Hungary, Bahrain) and ultimately had to be gifted a win to be a race winner.

No, he wasn't gifted any win. Some drivers have slower cars and some driver have cars that break down, and can't even finish half the distance at that.

He did great in his comeback, very well indeed (drove consistently), but on par with VET and ALO, no way. Even less HAM. He lacked the outright pace to take it up to the next level, and the fact that he was outpaced by Grosjean so often is a worrying sign (as Grosjean was thoroughly destroyed by ALO).

Oh, the well and truly tested, A>B, B>C, C=D, hence A>>D.

Oh wait, I am talking to a guy who says Raikkonen and Maldanodo were equally good!

My ranking:

1- HAM / ALO
2- VET
3- HUL
4- RAI / MAL
5- WEB



Advertisement

#160 RayInTorontoCanada

RayInTorontoCanada
  • Member

  • 570 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 07 December 2012 - 15:44

I have a really tough time with Alonso being this supposed "clear cut, head-and-shoulders" number 1 in 2012.

That's just complete rubbish by his die hard fans who have a tough time understanding all the circumstances and go mainly off 'sound-bite'-type generalizations.

The best I can place Alonso is co-equal number 1 with Vettel and/or Hamilton...and NOT number 1 on his own.

Why do I think this?

Well, my reasons are:

1. Alonso choked up a 40+ points lead at a time when Massa was proving that the car over-all was a Top 3 car during the championship run-in. Had Massa been allowed to "race" to his maximum capacity in Austin, Interlagos and Korea, there's a good chance that Alonso would have scored less points...and, so, his collapse in points to Vettel would have looked more alarming.

2. The car was very reliable and the work Ferrari did in pitstops and race strategy was as near perfect as anything any other team could come up with. Ferrari was AWESOME at reliability and race/track-side operational strategy.

Compare the 23 spot grid penalty McLaren gave Hamilton in Spain and two failures when in a strong position of victory at Singapore and Abu Dhabi ... and Alonso should be thanking Ferrari for the operational efficiency and mechanical reliabilty that Ferrari gave him. Look at those aweful, aweful McLaren tyre stops for Hamilton in the first several races too!

Compare the 22 spot grid penalty Renault gave Vettel in Abu Dhabi and the blown 25 points at Valencia and 10-or-so points at Monza because of Renault alternators...and Alonso, again, should be thankful of Ferrari track-side operations and Ferrari engines. Also, Vettels stops weren't at the level of Alonso's by Ferrari. Anyone who disputes this is biased.

3. Inspite of Massa being totally useless and his mind being in a total funk in the first half, the two Ferraris were still "good enough" to take 2nd in the WCC. So this idea that Alonso had a "dog" of a car is total rubbish. Massa's undisputably and absolutely shit performances made Alonso's looked great by midseason. How would Alonso's performances have looked in comparison if he'd had a "proper" teammate who was strong mentally and emotionally (like Button, Webber, Raikkonen)? I'd like people to think about that.

4. In 3 of the final 5 races Alonso was slower than Massa. Massa was told to back off or grid-dropped at Korea, Austin, Interlagos. And at that time, the Ferrari was hardly some "dog".

5. In Japan - where Massa took 2nd for Ferrari - Alonso was his own downfall. His tangle with Kimi when he moved over on the Finn was his own doing. His DNF in Japan can't be blamed on anyone else but himself.

So, this idea that Alonso was "flawless" is total rubbish. (Point # 4 would suggest that Massa being faster than Alonso in 3 of the final 5 championship run-in races also contributes to the idea that Alonso was NOT "flawless" in 2012).

6. Webber was no help to Vettel and Button was no help to Hamilton.

Alonso got the type of 'boost' from Massa that Vettel and Hamilton never got from their respective teammates. Webber, actually, nearly ****ed up Vettel's title chances.

So, when people look at Alonso in isolation without looking at the wider picture of Vettel having to fight tooth-and-nail with Webber and Hamilton having to fight tooth-and-nail with Button, then I think these people go about life like brainless baboons.

You can't rate Alonso the same way you rate Vettel and Hamilton in 2012.

Anyway, that's my opinion. I think the "Top 3" are Vettel-Alonso-Hamilton and there's no way i'd put Alonso "clear cut" number one when he coughed up a 40+ point lead at a time when his teammate was being held back from maximizing his Ferrari's finishing positions.

The Alonso lovers won't like it but that's how I see it.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 07 December 2012 - 16:29.


#161 Taxi

Taxi
  • Member

  • 3,034 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 07 December 2012 - 15:59

Of course. Alonso always delivered but in some ocasions he didn't excelled [Japan, Abu dabhi, Austin, Hungary]. He's like the kindergarten spoiled kid, who is inteligent and beautifull and gets everything he wants and no one questions his wills.

Compared to that Vettel's life has been way more difficult this year. By jun/august no one would as really tipping him to win. Yet he still made it.

#162 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,431 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 07 December 2012 - 16:28

Not quite. Lets just put this 'Alonso was flawless all season' bs aside and take a closer look.

1) the fastest car, Mclaren, took itself out of the equation with its own many faults, leaving #2 (RBR) and #3 (Ferrari) to fight it out for the title.
2) both Fernando and Sebastian got involved in two major incidents over the season, one of them being a racing incident (Rai/Sen) and the other resulting in the causing driver getting a penalty (Gro/Kar). Fernando's 2 incidents roughly cost him 20-25 points (3rd/4th in Belgium and 4th/5th in Suzuka ), while Seb's incidents cost him 15-20 points (3rd/4th in Malaysia and 3rd/4th in Brazil). (net gain of about 5 points for Seb)
3) but Sebastian, inspite of having the faster car, also lost a rough estimate of about 35 points (42 to points to Alonso when you consider that Alonso gained 7 extra points due to his retirement in Valencia)due to his 2 car failures. (net gain of about 42 points for Fernando)
4) both Seb and Fernando were outperformed by their team mates for 3 races each this season. But while, Mark was allowed to take points away from Seb on all 3 occassions, Felipe wasnt allowed to on even one instance. If you take one position away from Fernando in those 3 races it comes to 9 points, but I shall halve it and make it 5 points. (net gain for Fernando 5 points)

Conclusion:
Net gain for Fernando = 47 points
Net gain for Seb = 5 points
Final result = A net gain of 42 points for Fernando

So you might say Fernando had a much slower car and he came to within 3 points of Seb. But one must ask the question of why? And the answer lies in the reliability of the RBR, for if not for its failings, Sebastian might have come close to sealing the title with two races left.


A billion posts and finally someone nails it.


#163 selespeed

selespeed
  • Member

  • 1,059 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 07 December 2012 - 16:35

1 alonso choked?? getting crashed in 2 races is chocking??

2. ok

3. alonso was good enough for ferrari to take second in the championship....alonsos performances would look good with any of those drivers mentioned because they were good.

4. maybe in quali,,,in races massa is just abysmal on colfd tires.

5. kimi was always behind alonso and in no position to gain a place on alonso...button sudden move to the left made alonso to move to the left a few inches...to call that alonsos mistake is a litlle too much

6.webber was no help?? he beat alonso to victory in silverstone...that is enough help for vettel to be champion....massa NEVER finished in front of vettel

#164 RayInTorontoCanada

RayInTorontoCanada
  • Member

  • 570 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 07 December 2012 - 16:43

1 alonso choked?


Yes.

Alonso coughed-up a 40+ point lead during a time when the weaker Massa was proving that the Ferrari was a solid, fast car.

Alonso caused his own DNF in Japan (where Massa took 2nd, if you recall). To blame Button and Raikkonen (who had two left wheels on the Suzuka grass) is really rich, my friend.

Inspite of Ferrari manipulating grid positions at Austin and holding off Massa from racing to his and his Ferrari's maximum potential at Interlagos, Austin and Korea (where Smedley radioed him to back off), Alonso STILL choked.

What do you call it other than choking?

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 07 December 2012 - 16:55.


#165 selespeed

selespeed
  • Member

  • 1,059 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 07 December 2012 - 16:50

Alonso caused his own DNF in Japan. Massa took 2nd there, if you recall.



kimi raikkonen leaving his nose a few inches beside alonso and button jinking to the left caused a DNF

#166 RayInTorontoCanada

RayInTorontoCanada
  • Member

  • 570 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 07 December 2012 - 16:53

kimi raikkonen leaving his nose a few inches beside alonso and button jinking to the left caused a DNF


Typical of a biased Nando-Lover.

It's everyone else's fault! :wave:

Nando is ****ing perfect! :down:


#167 selespeed

selespeed
  • Member

  • 1,059 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 07 December 2012 - 16:56

:up: for name calling

#168 Taxi

Taxi
  • Member

  • 3,034 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 07 December 2012 - 16:56

kimi raikkonen leaving his nose a few inches beside alonso and button jinking to the left caused a DNF

you can fight whatever you want. Alonso's fault on this one. It was slight mistake, yes, but it was a mistake.




#169 selespeed

selespeed
  • Member

  • 1,059 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:00

you can fight whatever you want. Alonso's fault on this one. It was slight mistake, yes, but it was a mistake.


ok...but it was not chocking...

#170 Cult

Cult
  • Member

  • 447 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:10

1. Lewis Hamilton
2. Sebastian Vettel
3. Fernando Alonso
4. Nico Hulkenberg
5. Kimi Raikkonen
6. Sergio Perez
7. Paul Di Resta
8. Jenson Button
9. Michael Schumacher
10. Pastor Maldonado
Then: Rosberg, Webber, Pic, Kobayashi and Ricciardo followed by the rest of the grid.

This list is based on the whole season, JB was excellent at the start and the end but had some truly shocking weekends too so isn't higher.

EDIT: the ordering is quite loose, I think Glock was better than Pic so don't take this too seriously.

Edited by Cult, 07 December 2012 - 17:12.


#171 RayInTorontoCanada

RayInTorontoCanada
  • Member

  • 570 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:10

:up: for name calling


So, you are!

Aren't you!??! ;)

A Nando-Lover! Well whadayaknow!

Any more biased Nando-Lovers in this thread? Hehe.

C'mon, show yourselves. Don't be shy! :D



#172 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,392 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:24

I've recently watched some earlier races to try and erase biases from the last part of the season.

1) Alonso - He had an amazing season, simple as that. Consistently banged in fantastic performances on Sunday and got podium after podium even when the car didn't seem like it was up to it. Yes, the fact that he fought for the title required many circumstances to come together, but doing it in the 3rd/4th best car and bringing it down to the wire even when things looked bleak is still a hell of an accomplishment.

2) Lewis - Very close behind Alonso in my eyes. Things would have been different for him with a more reliable car and pit crew, but he still maximized most every opportunity he had. For everything that went wrong for Mclaren, Lewis' driving was not one of them.

3) Vettel - Probably the championship he had to work for the most. 1st half of the season wasn't quite as great as his 2nd half, though.

4) Kimi - Really nice comeback. Didn't think he was always one of the fastest out there, but he was consistent and showed great racecraft on Sunday.

5) Button - Season would have been pretty damn good if not for that weird slump he had where he was nowhere.

6) Hulkenberg - 1st half of the season wasn't anything to write home about, but he really started to come alive as the car did.

7) Webber - Did quite well early on but felt he underperformed too often in what was a great car.

8) Grosjean - Yea, crash crash crash, but he still impressed me with his speed in only his 1st full season.

9) Maldonado - Like Grosjean, couldn't stay out of trouble enough, but still made an impression.

10) Perez - Earns a spot here due to those podiums he got, even if he was mediocre for much of the rest of the time.

#173 Taxi

Taxi
  • Member

  • 3,034 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:25

ok...but it was not chocking...

No, not chocking. It was made in the race stress. But the penalty was very harsh to Fernando. He didn't deserve to get out of the race for such a small mistake.


What I think is that in the end of the championship when Vettel started to be all over him, he lost a bit of edge, and you can confirm that by Massa's perfomances. Fernando was too much afraid of losing IMO. He didn't put some astonishing performances as in the beggining of the season when he was the underdog. He just delivered good points. He almost got away with it. And the Ferrari was a very good car too.

Edited by Taxi, 07 December 2012 - 17:27.


#174 Gagá Bueno

Gagá Bueno
  • Member

  • 360 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:29

For me it's impossible to judge if Alonso did or not choke in the final stage of the WDC. But what seems strange to me is that one of the main arguments for his more-than-perfect driving and extracting 100% ( and beyond, according to some people... ) of an average car was the big gap to Massa. So how did this evaluation continue to apply when Massa was performing more or less at the same level as Alonso or even better in the last races? So I can't completely understand the high ratings here. Anyway, my list:

1 - Vettel
2 - Hamilton
3 - Alonso
4 - Räikkönen
5 - Button
6 - Hülkenberg
7 - Webber
8 - Pérez
9 - Rosberg
10- Maldonado

#175 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,392 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:36

For me it's impossible to judge if Alonso did or not choke in the final stage of the WDC. But what seems strange to me is that one of the main arguments for his more-than-perfect driving and extracting 100% ( and beyond, according to some people... ) of an average car was the big gap to Massa. So how did this evaluation continue to apply when Massa was performing more or less at the same level as Alonso or even better in the last races?

So people knock Alonso for Massa matching him for a couple races, but are they also knocking Vettel for Webber matching him on several occasions or Lewis when Button was matching him?

I feel that people are just using those few occasions as a convenient excuse to not list him higher up because they dont want to.

#176 Crossmax

Crossmax
  • Member

  • 985 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:44

I agree. But to cite those races to prove that Vettel was slightly off his game in the early part of the season, while totally ignoring Fernando's blip in form towards the latter part of it to claim that Fernando was flawless, is double standards imo.

This :up:

#177 Gagá Bueno

Gagá Bueno
  • Member

  • 360 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:48

So people knock Alonso for Massa matching him for a couple races, but are they also knocking Vettel for Webber matching him on several occasions or Lewis when Button was matching him?

I feel that people are just using those few occasions as a convenient excuse to not list him higher up because they dont want to.


I'm not 'knocking' Alonso, more the people who didn't reconsider their opinion on his nearby super-human driving after further evidence has been offered. So I don't think rating Vettel ( who 'delivered the goods' when he had to ) or Hamilton ( who was nearly flawless, but hadn't the pressure of a WDC challenge until the end ) above Alonso is being tendentious.


#178 Crossmax

Crossmax
  • Member

  • 985 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 07 December 2012 - 18:13

6.webber was no help?? he beat alonso to victory in silverstone...that is enough help for vettel to be champion....massa NEVER finished in front of vettel

He did in Brazil...

#179 selespeed

selespeed
  • Member

  • 1,059 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 07 December 2012 - 18:22

He did in Brazil...



my mistake...but that one really didn't make any difference...

Advertisement

#180 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,392 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 07 December 2012 - 20:19

I'm not 'knocking' Alonso, more the people who didn't reconsider their opinion on his nearby super-human driving after further evidence has been offered.

What new evidence did you bring up that we didn't already know about?

So I don't think rating Vettel ( who 'delivered the goods' when he had to ) or Hamilton ( who was nearly flawless, but hadn't the pressure of a WDC challenge until the end ) above Alonso is being tendentious.

Thats your opinion, but I just didn't really understand the reasoning for knocking Alonso because Massa matched him a few occasions when the same thing can be said of Vettel and Lewis. Seems like he's being held to a different standard for some reason.

#181 AnR

AnR
  • Member

  • 127 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 07 December 2012 - 20:27


IMO Vettel and Alonso was a bit ahead off the rest in 2012, with Kimi and Lewis trailing behind.
The rest is harder to judge, but this is my list

1. Vettel
2. Alonso
3. Kimi
4. Lewis
5. Jenson
6. Massa
7. Webber
8. Hulkenberg
9. di Resta
10. Rosberg

#182 Gagá Bueno

Gagá Bueno
  • Member

  • 360 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 07 December 2012 - 20:36

What new evidence did you bring up that we didn't already know about?


What about the season finishing whith Ferrari 2nd in the WCC with

the 3rd/4th best car



and Massa performing in a similar level to Alonso? Food for thoughts about who was over- or under-performing until mid-season, or not?

Edited by Gagá Bueno, 07 December 2012 - 20:38.


#183 ghost

ghost
  • Member

  • 58 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 07 December 2012 - 20:40

1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Raikkonen
4. Vettel
5. Maldonado
6. Hulkenberg
7. di Resta
8. Webber
9. Massa
10. Petrov


#184 RayInTorontoCanada

RayInTorontoCanada
  • Member

  • 570 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 07 December 2012 - 21:13

For me it's impossible to judge if Alonso did or not choke in the final stage of the WDC.



It's clear as crystal he did.

He was odds-on favourite to win the WDC at the Summer break. [Look at all the bookies odds at the Summer break]

Nando had a 40+ point lead.

The Ferrari was bullet-proof (unlike Vettel's RBR at Valencia and Monza) and the team did their best to make sure he didn't get any grid penalties (unlike Vettel's 22-spot penalty at Abu Dhabi).

In fact, they actually penalized Massa 5 spots deliberately when they manipulated grid positions at Austin to give Nando the clean side.

In the Championship run in, Nando under-qualified the Ferrari...and, so, Ferrari had to subjugate Massa and asked Massa to drive to less than their car's capacity so Nando's points haul could be maximized.

Ferrari and Massa did everything to boost a waning Alonso.

In comparison, Vettel had to over-come a 22-spot grid penalty and Webber, basically, squeezing him unnessessarily ... this after Webber said he'd drive "flat out" for himself as late as round 18.

Alonso bottled it inspite of everything being handed to him on a silver plate by Ferrari and Massa.

I don't think Alonso gave it everything whereas Vettel gave it everything inspite of the odds, Renault and Webber stacked against him.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 07 December 2012 - 21:15.


#185 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,392 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 07 December 2012 - 21:52

What about the season finishing whith Ferrari 2nd in the WCC with

and Massa performing in a similar level to Alonso? Food for thoughts about who was over- or under-performing until mid-season, or not?

So because Massa was underperforming early on, that makes everything Alonso did during that time unimpressive? I dont get it.

Also, Ferrari's 2nd place in the WCC wasn't really indicative of the competitiveness of the car.

#186 Cult

Cult
  • Member

  • 447 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 07 December 2012 - 22:06

It's clear as crystal he did.

He was odds-on favourite to win the WDC at the Summer break. [Look at all the bookies odds at the Summer break]

Nando had a 40+ point lead.

The Ferrari was bullet-proof (unlike Vettel's RBR at Valencia and Monza) and the team did their best to make sure he didn't get any grid penalties (unlike Vettel's 22-spot penalty at Abu Dhabi).

In fact, they actually penalized Massa 5 spots deliberately when they manipulated grid positions at Austin to give Nando the clean side.

In the Championship run in, Nando under-qualified the Ferrari...and, so, Ferrari had to subjugate Massa and asked Massa to drive to less than their car's capacity so Nando's points haul could be maximized.

Ferrari and Massa did everything to boost a waning Alonso.

In comparison, Vettel had to over-come a 22-spot grid penalty and Webber, basically, squeezing him unnessessarily ... this after Webber said he'd drive "flat out" for himself as late as round 18.

Alonso bottled it inspite of everything being handed to him on a silver plate by Ferrari and Massa.

I don't think Alonso gave it everything whereas Vettel gave it everything inspite of the odds, Renault and Webber stacked against him.


Webber helped Vettel out on numerous occasions (at the start particularly) and the Renault engine actually allowed him to accelerate/compete so stop talking rubbish. Massa helped out Alonso more but the bolded comment is ridiculous.

#187 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,189 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 07 December 2012 - 22:11

Also, Ferrari's 2nd place in the WCC wasn't really indicative of the competitiveness of the car.


If anything, if we try to isolate car/team performance, they should have ended HIGHER in the points table, given that:

1) Massa was on holydays mode significantly longer than Mark, Jenson, and even Romain. Everyone will agree on this, surely.
2) The 4 top drivers were all awesome if you isolate their driving. You could make a very decent case for any of them having done better than the other 3, but they were all really close.

#188 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:41

So because Massa was underperforming early on, that makes everything Alonso did during that time unimpressive? I dont get it.

Also, Ferrari's 2nd place in the WCC wasn't really indicative of the competitiveness of the car.

Yeah? What other team was better than them to be at no.2?

The reason why Alonso raked up all the points in the first half was the other teams with faster cars had their cars breaking down or messing up their pit-stops.

#189 selespeed

selespeed
  • Member

  • 1,059 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:27

The Ferrari was bullet-proof (unlike Vettel's RBR at Valencia and Monza)



:rotfl:

#190 Gagá Bueno

Gagá Bueno
  • Member

  • 360 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:14

So because Massa was underperforming early on, that makes everything Alonso did during that time unimpressive? I dont get it.


There was some accordance, in certain media sectors and between his fans, declaring Alonso by far the best driver of 2012 already by mid-season, no matter what would come later. And one of their arguments was the blatant superiority relative to Massa. So I was only wondering what did happen to this line of evaluation, it has nothing to do with 'knocking' Alonso. As it had been said here, all the top four drivers were awesome and it was not much between them, and I personally also can't see any of them excelling by a large margin.


Also, Ferrari's 2nd place in the WCC wasn't really indicative of the competitiveness of the car.


That's your opinion, but even after such a complex season I think it's difficult to find concrete reasons to subscribe to it.



#191 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,392 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 08 December 2012 - 15:30

That's your opinion, but even after such a complex season I think it's difficult to find concrete reasons to subscribe to it.

If you honestly think the Ferrari was the 2nd fastest car in 2012, I dont know what to say. :lol:

And Alonso's performances were heralded for more reasons than just the gap to Massa. You keep saying that as if its the only standard he was being judged by but his results on their own were very impressive. I dont think you have to be an Alonso fan to admit that.

Edited by Seanspeed, 08 December 2012 - 15:32.


#192 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 08 December 2012 - 15:55

If you honestly think the Ferrari was the 2nd fastest car in 2012, I dont know what to say. :lol:

Fastest is very different to best.

#193 Rentta

Rentta
  • Member

  • 294 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 08 December 2012 - 19:06

1.Alonso
2.Vettel
3.Hamilton
4.Raikkonen
5.Hulkenberg
6.Webber
7.Button
8.Kovalainen
9.Pic
10.Petrov

#194 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,392 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 08 December 2012 - 19:44

Fastest is very different to best.

I said competitive, not best.

#195 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:26

I said competitive, not best.

To which, I asked - what other team was more competitive than Ferrari to be at no. 2?

#196 SparkPlug

SparkPlug
  • Member

  • 491 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 09 December 2012 - 09:33

My top 10 :
1. Vettel : Fought back impressively after falling back in the championships, his season being punctuated by an absolute stunning drive at Abu Dhabi and his cool under very high pressure at Brazil. I dont remember him making a single mistake through the year.
2. Hamilton : Flawless, brilliant and super fast throughout the year. Terribly unlucky to not have been in the hunt for his second WDC
3. Alonso : On the ball throughout the year, and if not for his very real lack of pace vs Massa towards the end, I may have placed him first.
4. Hulkenberg : Very tough this one, 4 and 5 were very close, but I give this place to Hulkenberg. He was mighty impressive throughout the year, mixing it with the Saubers, Williams and Mercs often at races where his teammate would be 4-5 places below him. His superb pace at Brazil sealed it for me.
5. Raikkonen : Was good and consistent throughout the year, but I dont remember a truly stunning drive from him.
6. Schumacher : Flashes of brilliance throughout the season, and I suspect, had it not been for some absolute shockers (like Hungary and Singapore) he may have been placed higher on many people's lists
7. Rosberg : Kept his nose clean, and even though he won a race and beat Schumacher in every conceivable scorecard (even if you adjust for mechanical failures IMHO), he had no real highlights apart from China even though I think he's capable of many.
8. Perez : Was fast throughout the year, and was erratic towards the end which may have lowered my opinion of him a bit.
9. Button : Strictly average season but I thought he should make it to the top 10. Spent too many races in the best car fighting it out with slower cars.
10. Massa : Makes it here solely on his brilliant performances after summer vis a vis Alonso. Towards the end of the season he was running rings around his much touted teammate


Webber does not make it in my list as I thought he had too many weekends where he was just too average.
Grosjean because he crashed too many times ruining races around him
Same for Maldonado
Paul Di Resta needs to step up his game, I thought Hulk definitely beat him comprehensively through the year.

#197 rentonB

rentonB
  • Member

  • 172 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 09 December 2012 - 13:10

Grosjean was thoroughly destroyed by ALO).

Jumping onto shitty car in the late part of the season without any millage.

#198 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,392 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 09 December 2012 - 14:34

To which, I asked - what other team was more competitive than Ferrari to be at no. 2?

Thats not what you asked.

This obviously isn't going to go anywhere constructive. I know the route you're going down. Your attempts to downplay what Alonso did are well documented in several other threads already. I dont think we need to repeat the same things ad-nauseam here.

Edited by Seanspeed, 09 December 2012 - 14:39.


#199 kpchelsea

kpchelsea
  • Member

  • 249 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 09 December 2012 - 15:06

1 alonso choked?? getting crashed in 2 races is chocking??

2. ok

3. alonso was good enough for ferrari to take second in the championship....alonsos performances would look good with any of those drivers mentioned because they were good.

4. maybe in quali,,,in races massa is just abysmal on colfd tires.

5. kimi was always behind alonso and in no position to gain a place on alonso...button sudden move to the left made alonso to move to the left a few inches...to call that alonsos mistake is a litlle too much

6.webber was no help?? he beat alonso to victory in silverstone...that is enough help for vettel to be champion....massa NEVER finished in front of vettel

Alonso chose to drive from one side of the track to the other forcing Kimi off the track, Kimi has shown time and time this season one of the drivers you would choose to race safely side by side with, but with both Alonso and his fans it seems he is always blameless, and he obviously didn't make the most of the car in the final races of the season when Massa often outqualified him and outraced him, however if this could be classed as choking i don't know?

Advertisement

#200 TigersWood

TigersWood
  • Member

  • 132 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 09 December 2012 - 15:20

It's interesting that a lot of you guys say that Alonso choked, as it was all his fault and not the fact that Vettel made pole after pole after pole, while he qualyfied 7th, 6th, etc and had to run all the way up to the podium, just to finish after Vettel every single race (counting that the race was normal and neither had a problem).

You seem to think that the car they both had is comparable.

He had the inmense gap because others mistakes and his brilliance driving, and clearly it was a dream. Vettel's car was MUCH BETTER than his.



And Massa outperformed him in the last few races? Probably, but:

- It was in qualyfing specially.

- When you are not fighting for anything is much easier than when you are fighting for the title and you have a car that qualyfies not only after your main rival but after McLarens, and even Saubers and Lotus and Force Indias.

It's like blaming Vettel because Webber outqualyfied him in Brazil. The pressure is not the same.


It was very painful to watch Alonso lose the advantage, but it was even more painful because there was nothing he could do. NOTHING. For God's sake, Vettel was even 1 second faster!