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Hamilton & Hulkenberg Brazil 2012 Incident [split]


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#1 Towny

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 17:28

Nice one you muppet.

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#2 sofarapartguy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 17:35

Nice one you muppet.

Get lost.

#3 SCEPurple

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 18:50

Hulk refused to apologise to Ham.

Added him to my list of drivers I have irrational hatred for. Shame.

#4 SennaJordan

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 18:53

Great, another crash kid. Thanks a lot for ruining Hamilton's last race in a McLaren and a possible win. :down:

#5 amppatel

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 18:53

Hulk refused to apologise to Ham.

Added him to my list of drivers I have irrational hatred for. Shame.


When?!

#6 SCEPurple

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 18:58

When?!


after the race in the area where they give interviews with the media

#7 search

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:01

Hulk refused to apologise to Ham.

Added him to my list of drivers I have irrational hatred for. Shame.


racing incident, without the Caterham parking inside the corner he would have overtaken him easily.

#8 Peat

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:02

Can't believe they gave him a penalty. It was hardly wreckless or malicious.

Heikki played as bigger part as anyone trying too hard to get out of the way. Would have been a bit of an overwhelming scenario to be in.

#9 Francesc

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:03

Great, another crash kid. Thanks a lot for ruining Hamilton's last race in a McLaren and a possible win. :down:


Yeah, like Hamilton, a guy who never crashed with anyone.

#10 Bartel

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:51

Nico will look back when he has more experience and realise he ahouldnt have pulled that move, it was obvious how wet it was up the inside hence lewis not trying to defend on that line. Nico noobed it terribly.

#11 jk

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:02

Good that Hulkenberg tried that move. He had a run an was not going to get many chances. When you are in a midfield team and get a shot at a win you have to take it. Unfortunately he lost it slightly and it had very unfortunate consequences. But the decision to go for it was the right one.

#12 black magic

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:23

Not a fan of either but that to me was harsh call for a penalty. in the wet mistakes do happen and it was hardly reckless.

at least they have been consistent in terms of penalizing even in difficult conditions albeit wrong.

great drive - the sort that teams remember - especially when the conditions were changing

#13 SamH123

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:29

He almost completed a pass for the win

Who could have thought that would happen before the weekend, very sad he made that mistake
Interesting that he has dominated Sauber since the move :/


#14 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:33

I never rated him before today (I used to think of him as "the driver who couldn't match Rubens"), but he showed *something* today... when he clicks on track, he can take an average car to fight with the fastest combination out there! Whether it is track/conditions specific, or if there is more to him, time will tell I hope.

A shame his mistake, though. Wonder if Hamilton could have moved further away (hindsight, what a wonderful thing), or whether he should have waited after the Senna's S to DRS his way through.

Also, he got to show how poorly DiResta was today. Quite astonishing considering the huge hype around the Scott...

#15 TurboF1

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:34

he should be going to McLaren next season. Sauber feels a bit like a step backwards.



Obviously a Hamilton fan but I rate Hulkenburg very highly as well, His mistake was understandable, he lost the rear in tricky conditions. I dont disagree with the DT, as it DID put the race leader out, so there has to be consequences. He'll be fine. Nico for me is a future WDC. I definitely wouldve liked to see him in the McLaren instead of Perez, but thats the way it goes sometimes. I think he may end up a Ferrari actually

#16 Les

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:33

I thought that he was unlucky with the penalty today. I classed it as a racing incident but I'm not sure if they have racing incidents in F1 anymore! He went to make the pass but was unlucky to lose the car on the slippery surface. But there you go.

#17 sosidge

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:42

He wasn't unlucky - he went in too hot. The loss of control was inevitable - you can't outbrake someone from that far back on the damp line. He was never close to the apex. So a clear mistake that cost Hamilton his race, and a justified penalty.

A shame, because up until his first mistake (that let Hamilton by) he had driven a superb race, and his chance of winning was much greater before the dubious SC - and a win would have been well deserved, because he had coped brilliantly with the slicks on the wet track, passing Button in a straight fight.

To be among the very best, you have to keep the car under control in those situations, and he failed. Reminded me a little of Perez in Malaysia. But no doubt he has put together a far more impressive second half of the season than DiResta (rather like Sutil did last year).

#18 ivand911

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:52

To be among the very best, you have to keep the car under control in those situations, and he failed. Reminded me a little of Perez in Malaysia. But no doubt he has put together a far more impressive second half of the season than DiResta (rather like Sutil did last year).

Even Alonso left the track, loosing it under braking. So, he is not among very best? That Caterham also didn't help there. He is in his second season and not with the best car. He get penalty , case closed.

Edited by ivand911, 25 November 2012 - 21:53.


#19 fer312t

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:20

Great drive by Nico...penalty was a bit unnecessary (losing the back end while racing is no crime - it wasn't a wild move etc.). But extremely poor form to not just admit it was a mistake and make a proper apology to Hamilton. Still a fan, but don't be a weasel...

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#20 scheivlak

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:22

Great drive by Nico...penalty was a bit unnecessary (losing the back end while racing is no crime - it wasn't a wild move etc.). But extremely poor form to not just admit it was a mistake and make a proper apology to Hamilton. Still a fan, but don't be a weasel...

He did apologise: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104594

#21 skyform

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:29

Nico's comment on the accident.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104594

"Looking at the incident I think it's just one of those things in racing. I think he could've turned away a bit. But the way it worked wasn't good for either of us."

By he, does he mean Lewis or Heikki, if he means Lewis, how can he say something like this, it was totaly his fault, he lost the car, where should Hamilton go?

If he means Lewis then I'm very dissapointed with this comment from Nico. I was atually cheering for him today and thought he is a nice guy, but as it looks most of germans who are fast are a bit arrogant, shame.

Edited by skyform, 25 November 2012 - 22:32.


#22 schumimercamg

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:31

Nico's comment on the accident.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104594

"Looking at the incident I think it's just one of those things in racing. I think he could've turned away a bit. But the way it worked wasn't good for either of us."

By he does he mean Lewis or Heikki, if he means Lewis, how can he say something like this, it was totaly his fault, he lost the car, where should Hamilton go? I'm very dissapointed with this comment from Nico. I was atually cheering for him today and thought he is a nice guy, but as it looks most of germans who are fast are a bit arrogant, shame.



Yes I'm not best impressed with that.

#23 StefanArak

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:33

Nico's comment on the accident.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104594

"Looking at the incident I think it's just one of those things in racing. I think he could've turned away a bit. But the way it worked wasn't good for either of us."

By he does he mean Lewis or Heikki, if he means Lewis, how can he say something like this, it was totaly his fault, he lost the car, where should Hamilton go? I'm very dissapointed with this comment from Nico. I was atually cheering for him today and thought he is a nice guy, but as it looks most of germans who are fast are a bit arrogant, shame.


I agree that Hamilton couldn't have done much more, particularly with the backmarkers being as ignorant as always, but Hulkenberg is a racing driver, they never think anything is totally their fault.

In my opinion a blue flag should also be a 'yellow-flag' for back-markers, meaning that when they are under blue flags they must not set personal bests, must demonstrate that they are lifting, and may not overtake the other backmarkers. The reason backmarkers often don't allow front-runners through easily is because often the backmarker behind them uses the confusion to sweep through also.

#24 Wingcommander

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:19

That must have been the fastest ever DT penalty. FIArrari doing their best?  ;)

#25 alg7_munif

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:28

I don't understand why some people would still call the incident with Lewis as racing incident when Lewis has clearly left enough room for Hulkenberg and Hulkenberg made a mistake on his own by losing the control of the rear of his car.

#26 seahawk

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:34

I don't understand why some people would still call the incident with Lewis as racing incident when Lewis has clearly left enough room for Hulkenberg and Hulkenberg made a mistake on his own by losing the control of the rear of his car.


That is a racing incident. He lost control of his car and hit Lewis. He did not drive into him while fully in control of his car, like Senna on Vettel or some Maldonado moves this year.

#27 alg7_munif

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:42

That is a racing incident. He lost control of his car and hit Lewis. He did not drive into him while fully in control of his car, like Senna on Vettel or some Maldonado moves this year.

No it is not, he made a mistake and caused a collision. No driver would intentionally hit another car on purpose. Once you made a mistake and caused a collision then you must be ready to get a penalty. The mistake can either be losing control of the car or even failing to judge the speed and gap while overtaking.

#28 seahawk

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:53

No it is not, he made a mistake and caused a collision. No driver would intentionally hit another car on purpose. Once you made a mistake and caused a collision then you must be ready to get a penalty. The mistake can either be losing control of the car or even failing to judge the speed and gap while overtaking.


Hulk made a mistake, he got a penalty, but compared to the the Lewis / Maldonado incident from this year for example, I see a huge difference. Hulk show no sign of not intending to give Lewis enough room. I think we have seen many worse moves this year. Although it sucks that he took away Lewis´s well deserved win.

#29 dplayerx

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:02

Hulk made a mistake, he got a penalty, but compared to the the Lewis / Maldonado incident from this year for example, I see a huge difference. Hulk show no sign of not intending to give Lewis enough room. I think we have seen many worse moves this year. Although it sucks that he took away Lewis´s well deserved win.


How can a win be "well deserved" when a lead of nearly one minute had been taken away before by the safety car ? :confused:

Edited by dplayerx, 26 November 2012 - 08:19.


#30 alg7_munif

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:07

Hulk made a mistake, he got a penalty, but compared to the the Lewis / Maldonado incident from this year for example, I see a huge difference. Hulk show no sign of not intending to give Lewis enough room. I think we have seen many worse moves this year. Although it sucks that he took away Lewis´s well deserved win.

Actually, if Lewis squeezed him onto the kerbs, leaving only a car's width gap and they end up colliding, then the stewards might call it a racing incident. The car from behind needs to find a gap for a safe overtaking while the car being overtaken needs to leave sufficient space if significant portion of the overtaking car is already along side him.

The fact that Lewis left more than enough space and yet Hulkenberg still made a mistake which caused a collision means that this is not a racing incident but rather his mistake was causing an avoidable collision.

#31 Diablobb81

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:09

The incident with Lewis was a textbook racing incident. He wasn't too aggressive, he didn't brake too late, he gave enough room. Due to the conditions his back stepped out. The penalty was idiotic. But his comments that Lewis should have given more room are misplaced.

#32 Nigol

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:10

Actually, if Lewis squeezed him onto the kerbs, leaving only a car's width gap and they end up colliding, then the stewards might call it a racing incident. The car from behind needs to find a gap for a safe overtaking while the car being overtaken needs to leave sufficient space if significant portion of the overtaking car is already along side him.

The fact that Lewis left more than enough space and yet Hulkenberg still made a mistake which caused a collision means that this is not a racing incident but rather his mistake was causing an avoidable collision.


:up:

#33 seahawk

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:13

I think the mistake is understandable under this conditions. That does not mean it was not his fault, just something I would call a typical mistake when racing under such conditions and not some carelss bonehead move.

Edited by seahawk, 26 November 2012 - 08:23.


#34 alg7_munif

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:19

The incident with Lewis was a textbook racing incident. He wasn't too aggressive, he didn't brake too late, he gave enough room. Due to the conditions his back stepped out. The penalty was idiotic. But his comments that Lewis should have given more room are misplaced.

There is only two outcome from a collision in term of regulation:
1) Racing incident
2) Causing an avoidable collision

In this case, Lewis left Hulkenberg enough space and yet Hulkenberg still made a mistake and caused an avoidable collision.

It is not about intentional or being aggressive but rather it is whether the collision is avoidable or not. Unavoidable means that the incident was caused by the combined actions of both drivers which failed to give each other enough room with no clear blame can be put on either of them.

#35 f1fastestlap

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:20

I think the mistake is understandable under this conditions. That does not mean it was his fault, just something I would call a typical mistake when racing under such conditions and not some carelss bonehead move.


So he mad a mistake but it wasn't his fault... Who was it then?
I just can't believe the lengths people go to dismiss Hulk's fault.
It was his fault by going to hot into a corner and losing the back, he was the one driving the car ffs...

#36 seahawk

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:23

So he mad a mistake but it wasn't his fault... Who was it then?
I just can't believe the lengths people go to dismiss Hulk's fault.
It was his fault by going to hot into a corner and losing the back, he was the one driving the car ffs...


Forgot a "not".

#37 f1fastestlap

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:25

Forgot a "not".

:up:

#38 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:28

The incident with Lewis was a textbook racing incident. He wasn't too aggressive, he didn't brake too late, he gave enough room. Due to the conditions his back stepped out. The penalty was idiotic. But his comments that Lewis should have given more room are misplaced.


This :up:

#39 alg7_munif

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:35

This :up:

Obviously it is not a text book racing incident since the stewards were able to make their decision so quick.

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#40 noikeee

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:44

He really likes Interlagos in the wet doesn't he. Remember the pole position.

It was an astonishing race, after yesterday I have an even higher opinion of him - he's ready to move to a top team now. Had a massive lead together with Button over the whole field, I think it was 45 seconds, admittedly through wise strategy but in these conditions there's a driver element to those calls. That lead was wiped away completely by the SC, I'd be fuming in the car. Then the shunt, it was his fault granted, and he ruined Lewis' race but it was absolutely not worthy of a penalty, he just slightly lost the rear of the car? Are there no racing incidents anymore?

Not nice that he didn't acknowledge his fault but really who wouldn't be massively pissed off after that race. He was on course for his first win and his team's first win ever, on his last day for the team no less.

Fantastic performance on the wet and remember even 5th is still pretty awesome. Drive of his career so far, and one of the best of the season from all drivers. :up:

#41 alg7_munif

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:04

He really likes Interlagos in the wet doesn't he. Remember the pole position.

It was an astonishing race, after yesterday I have an even higher opinion of him - he's ready to move to a top team now. Had a massive lead together with Button over the whole field, I think it was 45 seconds, admittedly through wise strategy but in these conditions there's a driver element to those calls. That lead was wiped away completely by the SC, I'd be fuming in the car. Then the shunt, it was his fault granted, and he ruined Lewis' race but it was absolutely not worthy of a penalty, he just slightly lost the rear of the car? Are there no racing incidents anymore?

Not nice that he didn't acknowledge his fault but really who wouldn't be massively pissed off after that race. He was on course for his first win and his team's first win ever, on his last day for the team no less.

Fantastic performance on the wet and remember even 5th is still pretty awesome. Drive of his career so far, and one of the best of the season from all drivers. :up:

The only reason why he got the penalty was because he caused an avoidable collision. Regardless whether it is intentional or not, aggressive or not, he made a mistake even when Lewis has left him more than enough space to avoid a collision.

A racing incident on the other hand is when the two drivers were racing and pushing each other so hard till they ended up colliding. Both of them share part of the blame equally and there is no clear indication that any of them can be blamed single handedly for causing an avoidable collision.

Edited by alg7_munif, 26 November 2012 - 09:05.


#42 Kucki

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:07

Gosh. Just when you thought you found a driver to root for he opens his mouth and says this:

"I obviously decided to make a move into Turn 1 and was on the damp side of the track and lost the rear a little bit."

Yeah Nico, you lost it just "a little bit" :cat:

"I think he could've turned away a bit"

That is just completely out of place to say that.

Why cant he just be straight about it and apologise, trying these communication gymnastics to somehow someway seem faultless. No backbone.


#43 ivand911

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:13

Why cant he just be straight about it and apologise, trying these communication gymnastics to somehow someway seem faultless. No backbone.

This is how they teach them now. You ever heard any of new guys to apologize?

Edited by ivand911, 26 November 2012 - 09:14.


#44 sofarapartguy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:14

This is how they teach them now. You ever heard any of new guys to apologize?

You heard it from Michael ever?

#45 Towny

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:17

I think hulks comments on turning away are ridiculous, so he wants ham to move because he f**ked up.

#46 ivand911

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:19

You heard it from Michael ever?

I think I did in last 3 years. To Barrichello with SMS. :D


#47 alg7_munif

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:20

Gosh. Just when you thought you found a driver to root for he opens his mouth and says this:

"I obviously decided to make a move into Turn 1 and was on the damp side of the track and lost the rear a little bit."

Yeah Nico, you lost it just "a little bit" :cat:

"I think he could've turned away a bit"

That is just completely out of place to say that.

Why cant he just be straight about it and apologise, trying these communication gymnastics to somehow someway seem faultless. No backbone.

Just look at these pictures, how much more space does Lewis need to give him? Should Lewis just get out of the way as if he is being lapped and shown the blue flag? Maybe he needs to learn a bit from the newly crowned triple world champion:

"I am not holy, I have made mistakes like everyone else but the way I was brought up was to be honest if you do something wrong. In Q3 I was pushing too hard and overstepped the mark so that wasn't perfect and I have no problem to admit that. I was brought up that way and I also believe that is the reason why we succeeded in the end."

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image



No excuse for Hulk...


Edited by alg7_munif, 26 November 2012 - 09:20.


#48 Kucki

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:22

You heard it from Michael ever?


Just last recently a couple of months ago in Singapore?

Some driver do prefer to make comments that make them appear faultless to the average F1 viewer, but when you just had a great race like that and everybody was happy for you, you come across pretty cheap all of a sudden. Everybody makes mistakes Nico, when its so obvious no need to hide it!

Edited by Kucki, 26 November 2012 - 09:23.


#49 noikeee

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:33

The only reason why he got the penalty was because he caused an avoidable collision. Regardless whether it is intentional or not, aggressive or not, he made a mistake even when Lewis has left him more than enough space to avoid a collision.

A racing incident on the other hand is when the two drivers were racing and pushing each other so hard till they ended up colliding. Both of them share part of the blame equally and there is no clear indication that any of them can be blamed single handedly for causing an avoidable collision.


Every collision is avoidable.

I do get what you're saying, it was 100% Hulk's fault but why should he be penalized? I saw other drivers doing half-spins and going out of the track and all sorts of minor mistakes, usual in the rain. They were just lucky they didn't touch other cars. Now every time you lose your car you get a penalty if you touch another car?

F*ck this everything-must-be-a-penalty bullshit attitude. You guys sound like card-happy Spanish football referees.

Edited by noikeee, 26 November 2012 - 09:33.


#50 Kucki

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:57

I'm an oldschool guy, I'm against all penaltys unless someone takes someone out maliciously on purpose. It worked great for 50 years in F1. Only recently people off the track decide the race, it used to be always in the drivers hands.