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Hamilton & Hulkenberg Brazil 2012 Incident [split]


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#51 Buttoneer

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:15

Thread has been split from the Hulkenberg driver one. If you are not happy that this thread exists and want to complain about it, PM me.

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#52 engel

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:19

Hulk had to tighten the radius cause the Caterham was just loitering mid-corner, that led to oversteer and the accident. Accident was his fault, penalty was a bit harsh but .. considering he did take a guy out of the race totally expected.

#53 Raifosa

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:42

Obviously a Hamilton fan but I rate Hulkenburg very highly as well, His mistake was understandable, he lost the rear in tricky conditions. I dont disagree with the DT, as it DID put the race leader out, so there has to be consequences. He'll be fine. Nico for me is a future WDC. I definitely wouldve liked to see him in the McLaren instead of Perez, but thats the way it goes sometimes. I think he may end up a Ferrari actually

I fully agree. Although this didn't stop from yelling all sort of bad things at Hulk for like 5 minutes which led to a friend/neighbour coming over and asking me "what happened to Hamilton this time?" lol

#54 alg7_munif

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:45

Every collision is avoidable.

I do get what you're saying, it was 100% Hulk's fault but why should he be penalized? I saw other drivers doing half-spins and going out of the track and all sorts of minor mistakes, usual in the rain. They were just lucky they didn't touch other cars. Now every time you lose your car you get a penalty if you touch another car?

F*ck this everything-must-be-a-penalty bullshit attitude. You guys sound like card-happy Spanish football referees.

Just like you said, not every mistake will get a penalty, only those which affecting others in a bad way will be penalized. Afterall what we want is just good sportmanship, not a lawless event.

#55 Gareth

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:48

I think the mistake is understandable under this conditions. That does not mean it was not his fault, just something I would call a typical mistake when racing under such conditions and not some carelss bonehead move.

Agree with that.

100% Hulk's fault, entirely his mistake, but an understandable one given the conditions. The penalty was on the harsh side, IMO (even though he's got no one to blame but himself for getting it).

#56 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:49

It is called racing and raining. Manure happens -- life goes on.

Hulk has no reason to apologize, it is not like he intentionally took Lewis out, right?

Let it go folks.

#57 SenorSjon

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:50

What about Vettel cutting to Senna then? See the Sky report on that one. He took out Senna and Perez with that move. No penalties there.

#58 H2H

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:52

Agree with that.

100% Hulk's fault, entirely his mistake, but an understandable one given the conditions. The penalty was on the harsh side, IMO (even though he's got no one to blame but himself for getting it).


This mirrows almost exactly mine opinion. BTW Wurz pretty much saw the penalty coming considering the make-up of the stewarts and the accident.



#59 alg7_munif

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:56

It is called racing and raining. Manure happens -- life goes on.

Hulk has no reason to apologize, it is not like he intentionally took Lewis out, right?

Let it go folks.

So other drivers intentionally want to take their opponent out when they were involved in a collision?

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#60 slmk

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:57

Agree with that.

100% Hulk's fault, entirely his mistake, but an understandable one given the conditions. The penalty was on the harsh side, IMO (even though he's got no one to blame but himself for getting it).


He clearly made a driving mistake that ended up with the race leader out of the race. I don't see the penalty as harsh at all - he made a driving mistake, which he could have avoided had he been less greedy (likely he would have passed him down the back straight).

Besides, Lewis got penalised for doing much less - ie. outbraking himself at the start of the race (Fuji 2008).

Edited by slmk, 26 November 2012 - 10:57.


#61 karne

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:00

The penalty was absolutely ludicrous. If ever there was a clear-cut racing incident, THAT WAS IT.

The fact that that was penalised and yet

- Vettel turns across Senna and puts him out of the race
- Kobayashi crashes into Webber's rear end and spins him to last
- Vergne and Schumacher collided in a similar manner (almost exactly the same!)
- Vettel potentially overtook under a yellow flag situation

WEREN'T EVEN INVESTIGATED, is absolutely a disgrace.

#62 slmk

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:03

The penalty was absolutely ludicrous. If ever there was a clear-cut racing incident, THAT WAS IT.

The fact that that was penalised and yet

- Vettel turns across Senna and puts him out of the race
- Kobayashi crashes into Webber's rear end and spins him to last
- Vergne and Schumacher collided in a similar manner (almost exactly the same!)
- Vettel potentially overtook under a yellow flag situation

WEREN'T EVEN INVESTIGATED, is absolutely a disgrace.


Regarding

1) Stewards would not have had the guts to penalise the championship leader in the last race.
4) Vettel did not overtake under a yellow flag.


#63 OoxLox

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:06

Everyone's getting really pissed off with Hulkenburg because it was Lewis's last race for McLaren and Hulkenburg blew a guaranteed podium and probable win for LH and us fans. OK I was spitting beer at the TV yesterday when it happened, but it got the penalty it deserved and that's the end of it. No need to crucify the guy.

#64 Gareth

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:09

He clearly made a driving mistake that ended up with the race leader out of the race. I don't see the penalty as harsh at all - he made a driving mistake, which he could have avoided had he been less greedy (likely he would have passed him down the back straight).

There are driving mistakes and then there are driving mistakes.

Where a driver does something that is clearly absolutely never going to work, and causes a collision, a penalty is not harsh IMO.

Where a driver does something that could work, and he just goes ever so slightly the wrong side of the line in very tricky conditions, then a penalty is on the harsh side IMO.

Like I said, I don't think he can blame anyone but himself for getting it. He put it in the stewards hands when he made the mistake, and whilst a penalty is harsh it's hardly completely unreasonable. But equally not penalising him wouldn't have been the end of the world either. It could have gone either way, IMO.

#65 Longtimefan

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:10

Penalty was incredibly harsh imo.

#66 Les

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:13

Well reading this thread it seems I'm in the minority. It seems to be part of modern culture that mistakes have to be punished.

My feeling is that it wasn't a malicious move nor was it out of the ordinary. The racing driver went for the gap fairly and it didn't come off. It was nothing like some of the reckless moves from the likes of Maldonado, Grosjean etc. He made a mistake and it was a racing incident that I don't feel should be punished further with a penalty. However most people feel, F1 included obviously, that he made a mistake so he should be punished which is a shame I feel.

#67 noikeee

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:20

Just like you said, not every mistake will get a penalty, only those which affecting others in a bad way will be penalized. Afterall what we want is just good sportmanship, not a lawless event.


But usually they don't penalize when "others are affected in a bad way". That's never been the common interpretation of the rules. They only penalize drivers for punting out others when it's for example a divebomb attempt at passing, braking far too late; or turning in at the exit of a corner like the other car isn't there. THAT is reckless and dangerous. Not doing half-a-spin midway through a corner in wet conditions, at a low speed.

Might as well penalize Webber for that spin on the kink before the main straight. Or Kimi for having to take the escape route. Or Alonso for not keeping the car in control twice in the first corner. Or Grosjean for losing his car in sudden fashion and destroying it. They only had the luck of not having the race leader on the outside of the corner in those moments.

#68 Fastcake

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:20

I thought the penalty was on the harsh side. Hulkenberg was alongside Hamilton when he made a mistake on the wet track and drifted into Hamilton, who had nowhere to go being trapped behind the Caterham. It certainly wasn't deliberate, and in the dry he would of got cleanly past, but perhaps he should of accounted for that before he made the move.

#69 undersquare

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:20

Everyone's getting really pissed off with Hulkenburg because it was Lewis's last race for McLaren and Hulkenburg blew a guaranteed podium and probable win for LH and us fans. OK I was spitting beer at the TV yesterday when it happened, but it got the penalty it deserved and that's the end of it. No need to crucify the guy.

I'm not too down on Hulk over making the mistake, it is fairly early in his career after all. I am disappointed that he didn't apologise though, and like quite a few people I'm all the more disappointed because I have liked him.

#70 SennaJordan

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:21

Penalty was deserved. His mistake led to another driver's retirement. Needs to be more careful in the future. But that's unlikely, given his comments.

#71 slmk

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:22

There are driving mistakes and then there are driving mistakes.

Where a driver does something that is clearly absolutely never going to work, and causes a collision, a penalty is not harsh IMO.

Where a driver does something that could work, and he just goes ever so slightly the wrong side of the line in very tricky conditions, then a penalty is on the harsh side IMO.

Like I said, I don't think he can blame anyone but himself for getting it. He put it in the stewards hands when he made the mistake, and whilst a penalty is harsh it's hardly completely unreasonable. But equally not penalising him wouldn't have been the end of the world either. It could have gone either way, IMO.


Thanks for proving my point. When making a move, you gotta realize the conditions you are racing in, which Hulk clearly failed to do. He failed to realize the low levels of grip and thus deserved to be punished accordingly.


#72 Jay101

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:23

There are driving mistakes and then there are driving mistakes.

Where a driver does something that is clearly absolutely never going to work, and causes a collision, a penalty is not harsh IMO.

Where a driver does something that could work, and he just goes ever so slightly the wrong side of the line in very tricky conditions, then a penalty is on the harsh side IMO.

Like I said, I don't think he can blame anyone but himself for getting it. He put it in the stewards hands when he made the mistake, and whilst a penalty is harsh it's hardly completely unreasonable. But equally not penalising him wouldn't have been the end of the world either. It could have gone either way, IMO.

I dont think racing conditions should let anyone off the hook, I'm sure the drivers are expected to take conditions into account when performing an overtaking move.

Add to this that the FIA have said in the past that they take a dimmer view of drivers taking out those in the higher places within a race (whether that's right or wrong is not the subject of debate) means a penaulty was always on the cards.

#73 Peat

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:24

It was an opportunistic and totally legitimate move. There was nothing reckless or banzai about it. He just got caught out by the damp coupled with Heikki dawdling. Caused him to grab a touch too much brake and around she went.

Edited by ForeverF1, 26 November 2012 - 11:26.


#74 noikeee

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:25

He clearly made a driving mistake that ended up with the race leader out of the race. I don't see the penalty as harsh at all - he made a driving mistake, which he could have avoided had he been less greedy (likely he would have passed him down the back straight).

Besides, Lewis got penalised for doing much less - ie. outbraking himself at the start of the race (Fuji 2008).


That Fuji penalty was truly ridiculous, one of the harshest I've ever seen. It was precedents like those that have set this mentality that everything must be punished.

Again, it seems like the stewards nowadays are Spanish football card-happy referees. Every contact must be called a foul and given a yellow card.

#75 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:25

So other drivers intentionally want to take their opponent out when they were involved in a collision?


Now, where did I say that?

Some crashes are the result of truly awful driving -- happens. Most are racing incidents -- happens more often.

That is what I am saying.

#76 alg7_munif

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:25

The penalty was absolutely ludicrous. If ever there was a clear-cut racing incident, THAT WAS IT.

The fact that that was penalised and yet

- Vettel turns across Senna and puts him out of the race
- Kobayashi crashes into Webber's rear end and spins him to last
- Vergne and Schumacher collided in a similar manner (almost exactly the same!)
- Vettel potentially overtook under a yellow flag situation

WEREN'T EVEN INVESTIGATED, is absolutely a disgrace.

Vettel was in front, he should have left a space but he did not and Senna crashed into him while he cuts across Senna. If this has been investigated, this could turn out to be a racing incident or perhaps Vettel can be blamed for closing the door.

Same thing if Lewis closes the door on Hulkenberg or if he just leaves a small gap for Hulkenberg and they end up colliding. However, what happened was Lewis left the door wide open for Hulkenberg. It was Hulkenberg's mistake alone that causes the collision so it is clearly not a case of racing incident.

#77 karne

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:27

Regarding

1) Stewards would not have had the guts to penalise the championship leader in the last race.
4) Vettel did not overtake under a yellow flag.


1) I knew that, and I can't even begin to imagine Vettel's meltdown if he was (correctly) penalised...

4) My point is that the stewards didn't even investigate it.

#78 ensign14

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:29

Where a driver does something that could work, and he just goes ever so slightly the wrong side of the line in very tricky conditions, then a penalty is on the harsh side IMO.

Which is the problem of the nature of penalties in motor racing. They are scarcely ever proportionate to the harm caused, so when the stewards apply something, that's considered harsh.

Yet objectively a drive-thru is hardly a punishment at all. Hulk's mistake meant another driver lost his race entirely. How did Hulk suffer? He dropped a couple of places.

If a footballer stops a scoring chance, he is sent off from that game and banned from the next one. Similar penalties apply in other sports. F1 is nothing like as harsh. If Driver A punts out Driver B, should Driver A not be sat down as well?

#79 jcbc3

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:31

Thanks for saving me the trouble, ensign.

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#80 alg7_munif

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:33

Again it is not about intentional or not. It is also not about aggressive/banzai move or not. It is about causing an avoidable collision. You can spin, went wide or even crash into the wall wherever you want as long as you do not take someone else with you, especially when the other guy is clearly trying to avoid you.

#81 mclara

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:36

Again it is not about intentional or not. It is also not about aggressive/banzai move or not. It is about causing an avoidable collision. You can spin, went wide or even crash into the wall wherever you want as long as you do not take someone else with you, especially when the other guy is clearly trying to avoid you.


This. :up:

I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand..

#82 alg7_munif

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:37

Now, where did I say that?

Some crashes are the result of truly awful driving -- happens. Most are racing incidents -- happens more often.

That is what I am saying.

Even if it is truly awful driving, I doubt any of those drivers intentionally want to take out their opponent. So defending Nico by saying it was not intentional is a moot point since most if not all collisions are not intentional.

Edited by alg7_munif, 26 November 2012 - 11:38.


#83 slmk

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:38

I thought the penalty was on the harsh side. Hulkenberg was alongside Hamilton when he made a mistake on the wet track and drifted into Hamilton, who had nowhere to go being trapped behind the Caterham. It certainly wasn't deliberate, and in the dry he would of got cleanly past, but perhaps he should of accounted for that before he made the move.


:up: Exactly my point of view.

#84 Kucki

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:44

This mirrows almost exactly mine opinion. BTW Wurz pretty much saw the penalty coming considering the make-up of the stewarts and the accident.


I heard that aswell. Wurz was saying during the raec he knows the steward of the race, and that he was a person that likes to give out penaltys.

#85 alg7_munif

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:47

Nico's mistake is exactly the same as Schumi's crash into the back of Vergne, causing an avoidable collision.

#86 robefc

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:47

I'm not too down on Hulk over making the mistake, it is fairly early in his career after all. I am disappointed that he didn't apologise though, and like quite a few people I'm all the more disappointed because I have liked him.


He did, check out lewis's 'official' post race comments

#87 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:53

Even if it is truly awful driving, I doubt any of those drivers intentionally want to take out their opponent. So defending Nico by saying it was not intentional is a moot point since most if not all collisions are not intentional.


Fair point, but I wasn't defending Nico by saying that -- just like your comment above states, mine was an after thought -- a matter of fact statement. No one intentionally....etc..

I defended Nico by saying it is racing and raining -- manure happens.

;-)

EDIT: The sentence didn't make sense, had to reformulate.....

Edited by Pothead4Philosopher, 26 November 2012 - 12:17.


#88 techspeed

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:05

For those saying the penalty was too harsh, shall we presume you would be happy if Hulkenberg had won the race, after taking the lead by breaking Hamiltons car?

#89 noikeee

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:14

Again it is not about intentional or not. It is also not about aggressive/banzai move or not. It is about causing an avoidable collision. You can spin, went wide or even crash into the wall wherever you want as long as you do not take someone else with you, especially when the other guy is clearly trying to avoid you.


You may think that's what the rule should be, but I've never seen that rule written or applied anywhere.

Remember Kimi taking out Sutil in Monaco (2008?)? According to what you're saying he should've been given a grid penalty for the next race then. There must be hundreds of examples like this.

It's NEVER been a rule that if you lose the car and happen to take someone else with you, you must be penalized. They penalize when you are reckless, not when you take someone out.

#90 karne

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:15

I heard that aswell. Wurz was saying during the raec he knows the steward of the race, and that he was a person that likes to give out penaltys.


If he's a guy that likes to give out penalties, where were the other penalties that were deserved during that race?

#91 Diablobb81

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:16

For those saying the penalty was too harsh, shall we presume you would be happy if Hulkenberg had won the race, after taking the lead by breaking Hamiltons car?


Is this for the Button fans? :rotfl:

And when judging a penalty of course you have to consider the degree of guilt.

Edited by Diablobb81, 26 November 2012 - 12:18.


#92 f1fastestlap

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:16

It's NEVER been a rule that if you lose the car and happen to take someone else with you, you must be penalized. They penalize when you are reckless, not when you take someone out.


I Guess he was reckless then...

#93 noikeee

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:19

I Guess he was reckless then...


If spinning is reckless then penalize everyone who spins.

#94 Nigol

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:20

The incident with Lewis was a textbook racing incident. He wasn't too aggressive, he didn't brake too late, he gave enough room. Due to the conditions his back stepped out. The penalty was idiotic. But his comments that Lewis should have given more room are misplaced.


He was too aggressive, he did brake too late. In fact later than Hamilton who on the dry part of the track. Call it madness, call it inexperience - but don't call it a normal racing incident.

Edited by Nigol, 26 November 2012 - 12:20.


#95 andrewf1

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:25

If spinning is reckless then penalize everyone who spins and takes somebody out.


fixed that for you. what's so hard to understand about making a mistake and getting a penalty for taking someone out of the race? you can spin on every lap if you wish to do so, but if you're gonna collect other drivers, you'll be penalized. it's quite simple really


#96 f1fastestlap

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:25

If spinning is reckless then penalize everyone who spins.


He didn't spun when he hit lewis, he lost the back...

Edited by f1fastestlap, 26 November 2012 - 12:27.


#97 noikeee

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:28

fixed that for you. what's so hard to understand about making a mistake and getting a penalty for taking someone out of the race? you can spin on every lap if you wish to do so, but if you're gonna collect other drivers, you'll be penalized. it's quite simple really


Except that's never been the rule.

#98 jcbc3

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:32

Driver steward was TomK. I don't think there is a history of especially many penalties when he serves. So Wurz must be referring to the other stewards.

Or is Mr. Wurz just not a fan of TomK from sportscars and just got a little dig in, when TomK couldn't defend himself? Things that make you go hmmm..........

#99 peroa

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:39

Driver steward was TomK. I don't think there is a history of especially many penalties when he serves. So Wurz must be referring to the other stewards.

Or is Mr. Wurz just not a fan of TomK from sportscars and just got a little dig in, when TomK couldn't defend himself? Things that make you go hmmm..........

IIRC he wasn't referring to Tom, but one of the suits.

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#100 Jon83

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:44

Terrific drive from an excellent young driver.

It was a mistake of course and it was costly for Hamilton but these things happen. These stewards are too quick to hand-out penalties.