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Alonso claims that Grosjean and Vettels quali in Japan cost the title


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#51 Disgrace

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:07

Brilliant driver, horrible personality.


He is the Casey Stoner of F1. He can't speak the truth without being labelled "moaner", "sour" or "horrible" etc.

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#52 harrys

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:08

However, as he summed up his season and his achievement, the 25-year-old German remarked "a lot of people tried to play dirty tricks. But we did not get distracted by that and kept going our way."

#53 wrcva

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:08

LdM, Dom and Fred should drink some Red Bull, and quit blaming others... if they could spend half the time/effort they waste on politicking and bull sh*t PR in fixing their wind tunnel they might get somewhere. Instead of starting to look inside to figure out wtf is wrong with them, they are already starting the PR spin searching for excuses.


#54 FirstWatt

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:10

Mechanical failures and own mistakes do not count for bad luck IMO.
As having a fast or reliable car, or not having avoidable incidents do not count for luck.
All this is in the hands of the team and/or driver.

Being taken out in the way Alo has been in Spa is neither in the hands of team or driver.
That's a clear difference, and thus Alo is right pointing on these cases.
Apart that, I think he did not mention his Japan DNF.

I'd love to see the same haters here in a year or two commenting about what Vettel (or any other driver) says after loosing a championship by 3 points (or 1%). As far as I know Vettel, he would make at least similar comments.

#55 Torsion

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:10

"The championship was not lost here," said Alonso. "The championship was lost when Grosjean flew over my head or when Vettel surprisingly only got a reprimand after qualifying in Japan.

TRUE!


He is a top driver who had a great season, but really would like to see him take more responsibility himself, rather than always putting the blame elsewhere. In Suzuka he was certainly his own undoing.



#56 fastdriver

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:10

He is the Casey Stoner of F1. He can't speak the truth without being labelled "moaner", "sour" or "horrible" etc.

then he really should stop moaning.
:p

#57 showtime

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:11

Alonso needs to remember that had McLaren not messed up as much as they did, he wouldn't have even had a look in this year. Credit to him for his consistency but bad luck affected more drivers than himself.


Maybe we are mixing bad luck with incompetence here.

#58 primus

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:12

From an egocentric pov he's right. But F1 or the world doesn't revolve around him. Others have lost points too. Lewis Hamilton was much more unlucky this year. You can count his what if's on more then one hand compared to Alonso.
In the end it's all part of the game that you need some luck and have to be at the right places at the right time.


This! Very narsistic comments from Fernando.

...and if RedBull is such a good car why on earth Mark Webber haven't managed to be second after SV?

#59 Seanspeed

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:12

Bit about Vettel sounds like sour grapes. The rest, I think he's right to suggest the championship wasn't lost in Brazil. It was Vettel's to lose. Alonso/Ferrari lost it earlier on already by not having a competitive enough package.

Just trying to be reasonable here. Continue the hating. :wave:

LdM, Dom and Fred should drink some Red Bull, and quit blaming others... if they could spend half the time/effort they waste on politicking and bull sh*t PR in fixing their wind tunnel they might get somewhere. Instead of starting to look inside to figure out wtf is wrong with them, they are already starting the PR spin searching for excuses.

You really think this is what they spend the majority of their time doing? I dont even get comments like this. Probably took Alonso a matter of 5 seconds to utter those words.

Edited by Seanspeed, 26 November 2012 - 14:15.


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#60 Diablobb81

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:13

He is the Casey Stoner of F1. He can't speak the truth without being labelled "moaner", "sour" or "horrible" etc.


What truth? An hypothetical result without the RG incident? Maybe he would have binned the car himself.
Winning if SB would have gotten a penalty (classy request by FA). Maybe SB would have fought back like he did in these last races.

Or the truth about Alonso asking for a Michael penalty in quali? When both were on slow down laps ( one of his latest unwarranted whines).

So what truth are you talking about? The one which Alonso creates to excuse his failures?


Alonso should go blow a seal (i'll tell the joke if people don't know it).

Edited by Diablobb81, 26 November 2012 - 14:14.


#61 tifosiMac

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:14

Ha-haa... look at all the Alonso haters coming to kick the man when he is down :):):)

Your post was immediately after mine but somehow unrelated.

#62 fastdriver

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:14

Maybe we are mixing bad luck with incompetence here.

The incompetence of drivers like RoGro (and maybe himself in Japan) cost FA valuable points.
The incomptence of Mac team cost LH valuable points.

There.


#63 showtime

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:15

However, as he summed up his season and his achievement, the 25-year-old German remarked "a lot of people tried to play dirty tricks. But we did not get distracted by that and kept going our way."


Don't waste your time, Vettel can say whatever he want's to the press or in radio transmissions he would have never be treated as Lewis or Fernando.

#64 FirstWatt

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:17

The incompetence of drivers like RoGro (and maybe himself in Japan) cost FA valuable points.
The incomptence of Mac team cost LH valuable points.

There.


Wrong. Gro is not part of Ferrari Team. So, no chance of team or driver to influence the outcome.

LH/McLaren is the SAME team. So they lose because of their OWN incompetence.

Edited by FirstWatt, 26 November 2012 - 14:18.


#65 Seanspeed

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:18

Don't waste your time, Vettel can say whatever he want's to the press or in radio transmissions he would have never be treated as Lewis or Fernando.

Everybody has their haters and Vettel isn't an exception. This just happens to be a gathering of Alonso/Ferrari haters in here. I'm sure you'd get plenty of similar responses if you created a thread about Vettel's comment.

#66 fastdriver

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:18

Don't waste your time, Vettel can say whatever he want's to the press or in radio transmissions he would have never be treated as Lewis or Fernando.

maybe when he finally gets involved in a scandal will the press and radio finally treat him like those two... :wave:

#67 John Player

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:18

He is a great driver but should have kept his mouth shut. I guess its hard for him to see Vettel be a triple world champion before him.

#68 harrys

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:19

Neither Vettel nor Alonso have particularly likeable personalities. Both like to blame others for their misfortune all the time. Alonso was very crafty in trying to get the safety car out yesterday when 40 seconds behind Button & Hulkenburg. Both expect teammates and other drivers to move out the way for them all the time. Both have resorted to questionable tactics to try and win races.

Among the top drivers, I would say Hamilton, Button and Webber are the most humble and respectful, admitting when they don't have the pace or they make a mistake rather than looking to blame others. And of all the leading teams, McLaren are the only ones who always play fair and stay comfortably within the rules. They never look to breach the sporting regulations, impose team orders, or try underhand tactics. As impressive as Red Bull have been, you cannot deny they have pushed the technical regulations to probably beyond the limits and got away with it, while Ferrari still always try to exert political influence.

Even though things haven't gone McLaren's way this season, we should look to them as a shining example of a team that approaches sport in the way it should be approached.

#69 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:20

Come on, he just lost the damn championship. He has the right to think about the what if situations. But as it has been said, that goes both ways. Vettel would've a lot to speculate as well had he lost. No need to downplay Alonso for this.


+1 but you can't tell the Alonso opposition that. Vettel would have pondered the same type of stuff. I personally would've lie to see Fernando not mention Japan, but I'm fine with Spa, completely out of his control. Had he not been wrecked.. Well we'll never know but some of the people in here are ridiculous and as usual have an awful large double standard.

#70 primus

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:20

Don't waste your time, Vettel can say whatever he want's to the press or in radio transmissions he would have never be treated as Lewis or Fernando.


You are right they are not treated equally, when Vettel wins it is because of the car. When Alonso wins it is because of Alonso.

Maybe people remember better, but was Schumacher ever saying that Hakkinen won because of the better car or he lost championship to Hakkinen because of others destroying his changes?

#71 motorhead

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:22

Can you include a link to the source?


Sorry, here you go link

#72 ivand911

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:23

However, as he summed up his season and his achievement, the 25-year-old German remarked "a lot of people tried to play dirty tricks. But we did not get distracted by that and kept going our way."

Until you know more about this dirty tricks, I see nothing there. This could be things nobody from outside knows.


#73 F1ultimate

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:24

Bad luck is a part of racing and a championship campaign. Out of all front runners, Alonso experienced the least about of bad luck.

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#74 JBLeon

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:24

"The championship was not lost here," said Alonso. "The championship was lost when Grosjean flew over my head or when Vettel surprisingly only got a reprimand after qualifying in Japan.

Seems like sour grapes to me...


Oh my frigin Gooood!!

What Fernando said was "no creo que se pueda mirar atrás ahora y ver lo que hicimos mal en Interlagos. Está claro que el título no se pierde en la última carrera. Lo perdí cuando Grosjean me pasó a dos palmos de la cabeza, cuando choqué con Raikkonnen en Japón", and this was the answer to a loaded question from a Spanish journalist. Fernando, at no point, tried to point the finger at anyone. He did mention Grosjean because Grosjean DID hit him, but not in the context of him trying to put the blame on the Frenchman, which is what you're trying to imply.



#75 SpaMaster

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:25

Sebastian Vettel referred, in an interview after yesterday's race to some rival teams using "dirty tricks" during the season. What exactly was he referring to? I was shocked by the comment.

Ferrari's attempt to get him a penalty after Japan qualy. It seems they had argued vigorously with the stewards to get Vettel a penalty. Even now Alonso is saying it was FIA's favouritism towards Vettel that did not get him a penalty. If there was one contender FIA looked like favouring this season, it was Ferrari and Alonso, not the other way around.

#76 Lelouch

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:27

"The championship was not lost here," said Alonso. "The championship was lost when Grosjean flew over my head or when i f***ed up at the start of Japan".

Seems like sour grapes to me...

I think that would be a better assessment of what went wrong for him. And a lot of things where going in his favour for an important part of the season. Anyway happens to all great drivers when they lose and sometimes even if they win so it's nothing new tbh.

#77 engel

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:27

dirty tricks refers more to Ferrari's assumed crusade to ban the engine maps than Domi asking for penalties. Yeah don't ask me for sources, but RedBull is convinced the only reason the FIA banned the engine maps was cause Ferrari couldn't make them work.

#78 maverick69

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:28

Meh.

He also had some pretty good luck along the way. That allied to some excellent performances kept him in it - so singling out a couple of incidents is plainly a bit of sour grapes.

Doesn't really promote the need for a character assination though. Fred is Fred - a ruthless, political bastard like the best of them. Nothing new........ To me at least.........

#79 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:30

Bad luck is a part of racing and a championship campaign. Out of all front runners, Alonso experienced the least about of bad luck.


Agreed on first part, not second part. I have the "bad luck" total between Seb & Fer as 1-1. Fernando's bad luck at Spa & Vettel's bad luck at Brazil. That's a tie in my book. No reliability problems isn't bad luck, that's part of a good car/team.

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#80 tommi34

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:31

Among the top drivers, I would say Hamilton, Button and Webber are the most humble and respectful, admitting when they don't have the pace or they make a mistake rather than looking to blame others.


Sorry off topic, but do you think Räikkönen is not humble and respectful or just not considering him as a top driver? :confused:

On topic:

Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships
A lack of psychological awareness (see insight in psychology and psychiatry, egosyntonic)
Difficulty with empathy
Problems distinguishing the self from others (see narcissism and boundaries)
Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults (see criticism and narcissists, narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury)
Vulnerability to shame rather than guilt
Haughty body language
Flattery towards people who admire and affirm them (narcissistic supply)
Detesting those who do not admire them (narcissistic abuse)
Using other people without considering the cost of doing so
Pretending to be more important than they really are
Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements
Claiming to be an "expert" at many things
Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people
Denial of remorse and gratitude


Anyone else seeing Fernando there? These comments of him are traditional FA.

#81 showtime

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:31

Everybody has their haters and Vettel isn't an exception. This just happens to be a gathering of Alonso/Ferrari haters in here. I'm sure you'd get plenty of similar responses if you created a thread about Vettel's comment.


The fact that thread doesn't exist prove my point.

#82 Tuxy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:31

Well...

Grosjean wasn't the reason Ferrari/Alonso lost the title, that collision just put the final nail in the coffin.

Ferrari produced a dog, and they capitalized on circumstances both in and out of their control.

Grosjean joins Petrov on my shit list, but truth me known the combination Vettel and RB deserved the title more than Alonso/Ferrari.

Ferrari better get their shit together.

#83 motorhead

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:32

Oh my frigin Gooood!!

What Fernando said was "no creo que se pueda mirar atrás ahora y ver lo que hicimos mal en Interlagos. Está claro que el título no se pierde en la última carrera. Lo perdí cuando Grosjean me pasó a dos palmos de la cabeza, cuando choqué con Raikkonnen en Japón", and this was the answer to a loaded question from a Spanish journalist. Fernando, at no point, tried to point the finger at anyone. He did mention Grosjean because Grosjean DID hit him, but not in the context of him trying to put the blame on the Frenchman, which is what you're trying to imply.


Are you really sure that he gave only one spanish interview and didn´t speak to other press, BBC is quite trustworthy source, source is here and I´m only quoting the SOURCE, not implying anything!!!

#84 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:35

Agreed on first part, not second part. I have the "bad luck" total between Seb & Fer as 1-1. Fernando's bad luck at Spa & Vettel's bad luck at Brazil. That's a tie in my book. No reliability problems isn't bad luck, that's part of a good car/team.


:up: :up:

Vettel's bad luck at Brazil isn't close to Alonso's at Spa...Vettel was able to continue and score a few points.

#85 Skinnyguy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:36

I see, so he thinks he´s the only one losing points for external factors. :rolleyes:

#86 swerved

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:36

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#87 FirstWatt

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:39

I see, so he thinks he´s the only one losing points for external factors. :rolleyes:

If you just analyse Vettel and Alonso, Alo sure lost more points than Vettel for external factors. I'm afraid you cannot say that alternator issues are external. It's part of the team, and you win and loose with the team.

#88 SpartanChas

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:40

I like the man but if he's looking for reasons he didn't win, he can start with his turn one contact in Suzuka.

#89 Skinnyguy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:45

If you just analyse Vettel and Alonso, Alo sure lost more points than Vettel for external factors. I'm afraid you cannot say that alternator issues are external. It's part of the team, and you win and loose with the team.


If we´re talking about driver´s merits, a car failing IS a external reason.

If we´re not talking about driving performance, Alonso was eliminated by Romain in Spa. Seb was eliminated by Narain in Malaysia. That´s it.

#90 Torsion

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:47

Agreed on first part, not second part. I have the "bad luck" total between Seb & Fer as 1-1. Fernando's bad luck at Spa & Vettel's bad luck at Brazil. That's a tie in my book. No reliability problems isn't bad luck, that's part of a good car/team.


Of course you are right, but in that case, in the same way Fernando complains about the car being slow, Vettel can complain about lack of reliability.



#91 JBLeon

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:48

Are you really sure that he gave only one spanish interview and didn´t speak to other press, BBC is quite trustworthy source, source is here and I´m only quoting the SOURCE, not implying anything!!!


Of course your're not! I guess the "sounds like sour grapes to me!" is just there for decorative purposes.

I am very sure they are quoting the very same interview, the one in which he answered questions in Spanish and used very similar wording, is the one I heard.

I am a native Spanish speaker and what he said was not sout grapes at all.

That's all I will say.



#92 Oho

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:48

I like the man but if he's looking for reasons he didn't win, he can start with his turn one contact in Suzuka.


He has and has pinned it on Räikkönen. Jake Blues any one... it wasn't my fault..

#93 William Hunt

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:50

Vettel could also say that he had to retire twice with a broken alternator (Valencia & Monza) and in Valencia he was comfortably leading. Alonso never had those kind of technical woes.

#94 mnmracer

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:54

If you just analyse Vettel and Alonso, Alo sure lost more points than Vettel for external factors. I'm afraid you cannot say that alternator issues are external. It's part of the team, and you win and loose with the team.

But in that case, the whole discussion about 'the best car' also needs an overhaul.
Afterall, as Ron Dennis once said, and his pupil clearly showed this year, to finish first, first you need to finish.

You can't justify saying Alonso was superduper-amazing that he fought for the title in only the 50th (give or take) fastest car of the season, and Vettel was bad because it took him so long to grab the title in a 'superior car'. So you either have to admit that Vettel lost a lot of points due to bad luck, or you admit that in the grand scheme of things, Ferrari's reliability made it a good car (it did finish second in WCC, not far off RB afterall). One can not eat one's cake and have it too.

Edited by mnmracer, 26 November 2012 - 14:55.


#95 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:54

Of course you are right, but in that case, in the same way Fernando complains about the car being slow, Vettel can complain about lack of reliability.


Agreed. Now lets look at which one cost which driver more? Vettel's 2 alternators or Fernando's relatively slow car about 80% of the season..

Mate I'm not making excuses for Fernando nor am I trying to diminish what Seb did. But some of the comments in here are absurd & baseless. Just trying to bring some objectivity to this discussion, that's all.

#96 JBLeon

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:55

Vettel could also say that he had to retire twice with a broken alternator (Valencia & Monza) and in Valencia he was comfortably leading. Alonso never had those kind of technical woes.


And Vettel was most likely going to win in Valencia because his times were better than anyone else's.

#97 FirstWatt

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:55

If we´re talking about driver´s merits, a car failing IS a external reason.

If we´re not talking about driving performance, Alonso was eliminated by Romain in Spa. Seb was eliminated by Narain in Malaysia. That´s it.

Wrong. Alonso in this very case said nothing about his car being too slow. Read the thread title.

And in a former post, I said that avoidable accidents are not bad luck. Vettel/Kart was avoidable. By BOTH drivers.

#98 RealRacing

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:58


"It is a shame because, after such a long season that we really fight in all conditions, we raced 18 races and not 20 - and being second by three points is not a lot. But that is the way it is."

The team boss added that the title had not been lost in Brazil but rather earlier in the season in Belgium and Japan.

"Watch the facts," he told Autosport. "Zero points in two races so we have done what we have done with 18 races.

"The others had 20 - and the points were over 20 races. These are facts, not words."



Dom here is also being pretty creative with his facts...but very predictable in his honesty.

#99 Raifosa

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:02

Mech DNFs don't count ..cause Fred didn't suffer any. If he did, rest assured we'd never hear the end of it.


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#100 RealRacing

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:02

Sebastian Vettel referred, in an interview after yesterday's race to some rival teams using "dirty tricks" during the season. What exactly was he referring to? I was shocked by the comment.


Well, in this thread alone, I think by now there are two different explanations of what he might have referred to. I will add a third one: the "creative" gearbox penalty use at Austin.

I think the fact that posters in this forum can find three different suspect instances speaks for itself...