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Alonso claims that Grosjean and Vettels quali in Japan cost the title


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#101 Skinnyguy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:02

Wrong. Alonso in this very case said nothing about his car being too slow. Read the thread title.

And in a former post, I said that avoidable accidents are not bad luck. Vettel/Kart was avoidable. By BOTH drivers.


What the heck are you telling me?? When did I talk about that or anything remotely related? All I say he has not right to complain because he´s talking as if only he had incidents and misfortune, and he only counts his problems as title deciders. And that is stupid analysis.

And please, have some class. Vettel/NK was a lapped backmarker thinking he was fully cleared and moving across into someone that was actually still alongside. If you want to say Vettel has any responsability, you´ll have to call kamikaze anyone ever going side by side with another driver, because the other guy might turn in on him. That´s like giving some blame to Alonso on Spa because he dared to be on a F1 start, where everyone knows there might be a crash. And you´ll surely realize how stupid that is.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 26 November 2012 - 15:04.


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#102 Raifosa

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:04

He is the Casey Stoner of F1. He can't speak the truth without being labelled "moaner", "sour" or "horrible" etc.

not even close, Casey admits his mistakes

#103 yr

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:10

If you just analyse Vettel and Alonso, Alo sure lost more points than Vettel for external factors. I'm afraid you cannot say that alternator issues are external. It's part of the team, and you win and loose with the team.


Sure, but then you of course have to write off that good old "pace and reliability trade off" which is always used by Alonso fans. The Redbull was faster and more fragile while Ferrari was slower but more reliable, so it was propably just a matter of philosophy of designin teams I was told. Vettels reliability problems were - according to FA fans - due to the trade off with Speed/reliability.

Now then, if you wanna be perfectly honest, then certainly you cant call RBs alternator problems part of the game unless you call Ferraris minor lack of pace part of the game too. eh?
" You win and lose with team" .Right. the car that the team has designed - fast or not- is certainly part of the teamwork, dont you think.

Edited by yr, 26 November 2012 - 15:15.


#104 bl-f1

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:13

Alonso is simply being ballsy enough to state the truth: since Spa every incident that has destroyed his championship has involved Renault-engined cars or Red Bull-sponsored cars.
Manipulating a championship for -a lot of- money can be done. IMO, has been done. Ferrari also questioned on their website the "serendipitous" safety cars that saved Vettel's day.

#105 prty

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:13

If we´re talking about driver´s merits, a car failing IS a external reason.


If we are talking about a driver's merit, having a much quicker car surely is an external reason too then.


#106 jk

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:14

Sure, Alonso did not lose the title yesterday. There was nothing more than he could do then.

But it is wrong to look at a single incident and claim that is what cost him the championship. One might as well claim that Alonso lost the title by failing to pass Maldonado at Barcelona.

#107 FirstWatt

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:15

If we´re talking about driver´s merits, a car failing IS a external reason.



What the heck are you telling me?? When did I talk about that or anything remotely related? [...]

Cool down.

Alonso is not talking about his driver merit's, but the team as a whole.

So
- mechanical failures are not bad luck but in control of some people in the team
- a slow car is not bad luck but in control of some people in the team
- an avoidable accident is not bad luck but in control of some people in the team
- wrong tactical calls are not bad luck but in control of some people in the team

Now, if you really read what this thread is about, you might notice that he is not complaining about some "bad luck" based on the team's failures (in his case a slower car) but things outside of his or the teams control.
So please apples to apples.

Edited by FirstWatt, 26 November 2012 - 15:15.


#108 H2H

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:15

"It is a shame because, after such a long season that we really fight in all conditions, we raced 18 races and not 20 - and being second by three points is not a lot. But that is the way it is."

The team boss added that the title had not been lost in Brazil but rather earlier in the season in Belgium and Japan.

"Watch the facts," he told Autosport. "Zero points in two races so we have done what we have done with 18 races.

"The others had 20 - and the points were over 20 races. These are facts, not words."



Dom here is also being pretty creative with his facts...but very predictable in his honesty.


Da Domenicali after a domenica da domenticare. (A typical Domenicali after a sunday to forget - it all just goes so well with Domenicali). It is quite understandable that he talks like that, he has a job to fight for.

Anyway Alonso had arguably by quite a margin the most luck of all the top drivers - with Hamilton on the other end of the scale. He can certainly not complain about the overal harshness of Vettels penalties especially. When taken together they are quite amazingly tough.

Edited by H2H, 26 November 2012 - 15:16.


#109 Skinnyguy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:17

If we are talking about a driver's merit, having a much quicker car surely is an external reason too then.


Who said otherwise?? Listen dude, you´re not discussing anything with a fanboy. You don´t need to throw obvious truths that I will deny because it matches my agenda. :rolleyes: RB was a faster car overall.

Read again what I said: "Alonso has no right to complain like this because he´s acting as if only he had misfortunes during the season." Anything to say about that?

#110 ViMaMo

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:18

How different from Vettel complaining about Hamilton's overtake in Austin?

#111 primus

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:18

Sorry off topic, but do you think Räikkönen is not humble and respectful or just not considering him as a top driver? :confused:

On topic:

Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships
A lack of psychological awareness (see insight in psychology and psychiatry, egosyntonic)
Difficulty with empathy
Problems distinguishing the self from others (see narcissism and boundaries)
Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults (see criticism and narcissists, narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury)
Vulnerability to shame rather than guilt
Haughty body language
Flattery towards people who admire and affirm them (narcissistic supply)
Detesting those who do not admire them (narcissistic abuse)
Using other people without considering the cost of doing so
Pretending to be more important than they really are
Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements
Claiming to be an "expert" at many things
Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people
Denial of remorse and gratitude


Anyone else seeing Fernando there? These comments of him are traditional FA.



This!


#112 showtime

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:18

Well, in this thread alone, I think by now there are two different explanations of what he might have referred to. I will add a third one: the "creative" gearbox penalty use at Austin.

I think the fact that posters in this forum can find three different suspect instances speaks for itself...


I would say facts speak louder: Cars racing with illegal parts, taking other drivers out of the track, underfueling... now those are really dirty tricks, all used by Seb and his team.

#113 FirstWatt

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:18

Now then, if you wanna be perfectly honest, then certainly you cant call RBs alternator problems part of the game unless you call Ferraris minor lack of pace part of the game too. eh?
" You win and lose with team" .Right. the car that the team has designed - fast or not- is certainly part of the teamwork, dont you think.

That's what I try to say.

And that's the reason Alo is not complaining the slow car, but the accident(s) outside of his or team control.
At least this is what the thread starter has posted....

#114 FirstWatt

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:18

Now then, if you wanna be perfectly honest, then certainly you cant call RBs alternator problems part of the game unless you call Ferraris minor lack of pace part of the game too. eh?
" You win and lose with team" .Right. the car that the team has designed - fast or not- is certainly part of the teamwork, dont you think.

That's what I try to say.

And that's the reason Alo is not complaining the slow car, but the accident(s) outside of his or team control.
At least this is what the thread starter has posted....

#115 sharo

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:19

Brilliant driver, horrible personality.

Couldn't agree more. Thread concluded. :)

#116 Skinnyguy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:21

Alonso is not talking about his driver merit's, but the team as a whole.


Then it´s Vettel´s being taken out on Malaysia VS Alonso taken out in Spa.

How does this makes it right to complain? Seb lost a certain 4th with a good chance of 3rd. Alonso´s lost is hard to quantify, as race had just started. But you can sort of expect the same result. How does it make it right to complain about your drama as if other´s dramas don´t exist?? Do you hear Hamilton crying out loud he lost so much points and he should have won? Do you hear Vettel crying about his misfortune and how he should have it in the bag before last round?

#117 SpaMaster

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:25

If you just analyse Vettel and Alonso, Alo sure lost more points than Vettel for external factors. I'm afraid you cannot say that alternator issues are external. It's part of the team, and you win and loose with the team.

Vettel also got hit by Karthikeyan in China. You should not complain that much about others hitting you. They were hit what once in a season? If you don't want others to ever hit you, then you should not come for racing. When you are racing with so many cars around you, these things are bound to happen, and it happens to everyone. Pointing that out is sour grapes.

#118 kpchelsea

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:25

Sour grapes, maybe, but he's speaking the truth. Raikkonen in Japan at the start, Grosjean in Spa, and the lack of a penalty in Japan for Vettel all added up to cost him the title. If he had won, Vettel could rightly say the same thing about some of his retirements. It's the nature of losing to look back and figure out why you lost and what caused it, and for each of them there were many things that were out of their control that cost them points. I don't think it reflects poorly on him for pointing those things out, it's not like he's saying anyone cheated, he's just disappointed.

Well i would disregard the Kimi incident, most nuetral pundits put the blame on Alonso for forcing Kimi off the track, also interesting that Alonso himself doesn't mention the incident, upon reflection he perhaps realises that Kimi didn't do to much wrong but of course Alonso himself wouldn't choose to put blame on himself.

#119 Collective

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:26

Stay classy, Fernando.

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#120 mattferg

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:27

Alonso is simply being ballsy enough to state the truth: since Spa every incident that has destroyed his championship has involved Renault-engined cars or Red Bull-sponsored cars.
Manipulating a championship for -a lot of- money can be done. IMO, has been done. Ferrari also questioned on their website the "serendipitous" safety cars that saved Vettel's day.


Are you still sprouting this same crap from elsewhere in the forum? When has Webber, Riccardo or Verne ever destroyed Alonso's championship!? Also are you actually saying Lotus/Kimi allowed Alonso to crash into him!? What the hell!?

#121 eronrules

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:28

why can't everyone be like KIMI RAIkkONEN??? it's like these drivers know what will ignite fire and specifically states them even though they know media will make elephant out of an ant. End of Race, title decided ... the END. but no, they have to open their mouths ... arrghh :mad:

p.s i'm talking about all these 'media savvy' drivers, not singling out anyone particularly.

#122 SpaMaster

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:29

"It is a shame because, after such a long season that we really fight in all conditions, we raced 18 races and not 20 - and being second by three points is not a lot. But that is the way it is."

The team boss added that the title had not been lost in Brazil but rather earlier in the season in Belgium and Japan.

"Watch the facts," he told Autosport. "Zero points in two races so we have done what we have done with 18 races.

"The others had 20 - and the points were over 20 races. These are facts, not words."



Dom here is also being pretty creative with his facts...but very predictable in his honesty.

He should make it 19 races in that case. Japan was his driver's mistake. No one else's.

#123 Richard T

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:33

What is your problem? Isn't it true that he lost loads of points in Spa and Suzuka, two races which Vettel won?! Sour grapes my ass, he just tells the facts

#124 kpchelsea

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:34

Alonso just underperformed in the last 2 races and the last 2 Qualifying he can try to avert attention from that but the sad truth is his teammate was faster then him and more aggressive then him when it was his time to shine.

This i feel needs to be mentioned there was 3 races coming to seasons end where Massa was quicker and might himself been able to challenge the Red Bulls, he never seems to question his own performance

#125 prty

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:36

Who said otherwise?? Listen dude, you´re not discussing anything with a fanboy. You don´t need to throw obvious truths that I will deny because it matches my agenda. :rolleyes: RB was a faster car overall.

Read again what I said: "Alonso has no right to complain like this because he´s acting as if only he had misfortunes during the season." Anything to say about that?


And who says I was attacking your post? I was adding my opinion building from what you wrote, because people from this thread don't seem to notice it.
But with that aggressiveness now I remember why I stopped discussing with you, will keep it like that again :)

#126 motorhead

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:38

The team boss added that the title had not been lost in Brazil but rather earlier in the season in Belgium and Japan.

"Watch the facts," he told Autosport. "Zero points in two races so we have done what we have done with 18 races.

"The others had 20 - and the points were over 20 races. These are facts, not words."


Oh dear,oh dear dom - those are not facts, or do they mean Kimi as "the others". Wasn´t he the only who finished all the races

#127 FirstWatt

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:42

[...] Do you hear Vettel crying about his misfortune and how he should have it in the bag before last round?

You are saying Vettel does not cry???
Apart that, after being in such a good position and then winning the WDC it's easy not to complain, thats certain.

I bet Vettel would have cried about several things too if he lost the WDC.
Or do you really think otherwise?

#128 toxicfusion

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:45

Now we know how everything works out, Spa is actually an influential piece of the jigsaw that is this years Championship.

Grosjean wiped out Hamilton (at a time where he was still with a shout) and Alonso along with the two Saubers. All four qualified ahead of Vettel at Spa.

If all 4 has raced it is reasonable to assume they would have finished (at least 2 lets say) ahead of Vettel, the gap doesn't shrink so (or it actually grows by a couple of points) and the Championship is still in favour of Alonso.


The other mistakes that cost Alonso were what occurred in Japan at the start of the race and also the strategic decision to remain out in Canada, had they followed McLaren and Lewis, Fernando may have finished on the podium or at the very least ahead of Vettel.


All in all, 1 mistake by Fernando, 1 mistake by the team and 1 act of out of their hands in the form of the stupidity from Grosjean.

Edited by toxicfusion, 26 November 2012 - 15:46.


#129 TheF1BOB

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:47

What is your problem? Isn't it true that he lost loads of points in Spa and Suzuka, two races which Vettel won?! Sour grapes my ass, he just tells the facts


LOL exactly. Just more rubbish from the Fred haters as usual.

Edited by TheF1BOB, 26 November 2012 - 15:47.


#130 primus

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:47

Now we know how everything works out, Spa is actually an influential piece of the jigsaw that is this years Championship.

Grosjean wiped out Hamilton (at a time where he was still with a shout) and Alonso along with the two Saubers. All four qualified ahead of Vettel at Spa.

If all 4 has raced it is reasonable to assume they would have finished (at least 2 lets say) ahead of Vettel, the gap doesn't shrink so (or it actually grows by a couple of points) and the Championship is still in favour of Alonso.


The other mistakes that cost Alonso were what occurred in Japan at the start of the race and also the strategic decision to remain out in Canada, had they followed McLaren and Lewis, Fernando may have finished on the podium or at the very least ahead of Vettel.


All in all, 1 mistake by Fernando, 1 mistake by the team and 1 act of out of their hands in the form of the stupidity from Grosjean.


If, if and if. Didn't happen, get over it! :)

#131 mnmracer

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:47

You are saying Vettel does not cry???
Apart that, after being in such a good position and then winning the WDC it's easy not to complain, thats certain.

I bet Vettel would have cried about several things too if he lost the WDC.
Or do you really think otherwise?

Being behind your team mate for 11 races only because you had more issues outsde your fault is being in a good position?
Because of that, having a 39 point gap towards Alonso is a good position?
He finally caught a break with Grosjean in Spa; Kimi in Japan evens out mistakes on both sides.


#132 choyothe

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:48

Vettel lost in Valencia more than Alonso lost the entire season.

/thread

#133 mnmracer

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:49

The team boss added that the title had not been lost in Brazil but rather earlier in the season in Belgium and Japan.

"Watch the facts," he told Autosport. "Zero points in two races so we have done what we have done with 18 races.

"The others had 20 - and the points were over 20 races. These are facts, not words."


Oh dear,oh dear dom - those are not facts, or do they mean Kimi as "the others". Wasn´t he the only who finished all the races


Tomorrow:
"Watch the facts," Horner told Autosport. "Zero points in three races so we have done what we have done with 17 races.

"Alonso had 18 - and the points were over 18 races. These are facts, not words."

Edited by mnmracer, 26 November 2012 - 15:49.


#134 FenderJaguar

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:52

One can always analyze small details after a full season but in reality you are bound to lose some races along the way. When Alonso said this: "or when Vettel surprisingly only got a reprimand after qualifying in Japan" he diminishes himself.

here is a driver who all season long has been talking about how bad the Ferrari is even when it was good, has been having full support from his team and his nr 2 in every way and yesterday even got lucky with the weather, Vettel's misfortunes at the start, the FIA and the weird decision to bring out the safety car and it just goes on and on. It feels so GOOD that he didn't win. It's even sweeter that he was there and could feel the title and then it was gone. LOL!

Edited by FenderJaguar, 26 November 2012 - 15:54.


#135 toxicfusion

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:53

If, if and if. Didn't happen, get over it! :)


All I did was talk about how influential Spa is to the Championship season. Of course its an if but its still the turning point for the season.

Edited by toxicfusion, 26 November 2012 - 15:53.


#136 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:53

Bunch of muppets! He's just lost the WDV he's entitled to have a moan its HUMAN NATURE no being a sore loser! Jeeeeeeez give the guy a break!!

Any driver would look back at the season and pick out the events that hindered their championship

#137 seahawk

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:53

I have to agree with the remark about Spa. Grosjean destroyed the title hopes for Hamilton and put Alonso in a defensive position.

Edited by seahawk, 26 November 2012 - 16:27.


#138 TheF1BOB

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:54

Vettel lost in Valencia more than Alonso lost the entire season.

/thread


Yes... retiring from 1 race makes up for retiring in 2.

Great logic. :rolleyes:

#139 toxicfusion

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:55

Bunch of muppets! He's just lost the WDV he's entitled to have a moan its HUMAN NATURE no being a sore loser! Jeeeeeeez give the guy a break!!

Any driver would look back at the season and pick out the events that hindered their championship



This. I'm pretty sure Hamilton looked back at that pit stop costing him the title in 2007. Barrichello in 09, Massa in 08, Kimi in 05 and so on.

They all do it, especially when you've come so close to achieving success.

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#140 FenderJaguar

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:55

Well, Alonso and Ferrari could have raced harder and better for those 18 races. All I hear is whining.

Edited by FenderJaguar, 26 November 2012 - 15:59.


#141 choyothe

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 15:58

Bunch of muppets! He's just lost the WDV he's entitled to have a moan its HUMAN NATURE no being a sore loser! Jeeeeeeez give the guy a break!!

Any driver would look back at the season and pick out the events that hindered their championship


This is definitely untrue, I've seen numerous drivers not do this after a lost title fight.

Yes... retiring from 1 race makes up for retiring in 2.

Great logic. :rolleyes:


Serious? Vettel lost 32 points to Alonso in Valencia.

Alonso lost about 12-18 points to Vettel in Spa.

Suzuka was completely Alonsos fault, this is undisputable.

#142 SpaMaster

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:07

What is your problem? Isn't it true that he lost loads of points in Spa and Suzuka, two races which Vettel won?! Sour grapes my ass, he just tells the facts

You are talking as if Alonso was a challenger to Vettel to win both those races. He himself was fairing quite lousily in those two races, and did not incur two win worth point difference.. Both he and Hamilton underperformed in Spa, and were in lowly starting positions already. He again put himself in lowly starting position in Suzuka and DNFed due to his own mistake.

#143 FirstWatt

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:11

Tomorrow:
"Watch the facts," Horner told Autosport. "Zero points in three races so we have done what we have done with 17 races.


And this "We have done..." part would be wrong. Because in two races it was the team ("we") not building a sufficiently reliable car.

#144 boldhakka

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:16

And this "We have done..." part would be wrong. Because in two races it was the team ("we") not building a sufficiently reliable car.


Mid-pack crashes are part of F1 and have been for ages. It's part of the job of the Ferrari team ("we") to build a car that can qualify higher than the mid-pack and avoid the carnage. :p

Edited by boldhakka, 26 November 2012 - 16:17.


#145 Outsider

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:23

This is definitely untrue, I've seen numerous drivers not do this after a lost title fight.



Serious? Vettel lost 32 points to Alonso in Valencia.

Alonso lost about 12-18 points to Vettel in Spa.

Suzuka was completely Alonsos fault, this is undisputable.

i may be a bit dumb, but since when there's given 32 points for victory?

#146 onemoresolo

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:26

i may be a bit dumb, but since when there's given 32 points for victory?


-25 for the win, +7 for Alonso, 32 point swing. Hence he said "lost 32 points to Alonso".

Edited by onemoresolo, 26 November 2012 - 16:27.


#147 Crazy Ninja

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:27

He's just stating the obvious from his point of view. Not totally sure i agree on the Vettel Japan qualy, but he is correct with the Grosjean comment. If he hadn't been wiped out by him at the start then he would have got those 4 points (most probably) to win the title. If Vettel lost the title and then said 'we lost the title in Valencia' then that would be spot on too. What's the problem?

#148 onemoresolo

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:27

Isn't it true that he lost loads of points in Spa and Suzuka, two races which Vettel won?!


No, it isn't true. Check the winner of the Belgian GP ;)

#149 SpaceHorseParty

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:36

Tomorrow:
"Watch the facts," Horner told Autosport. "Zero points in three races so we have done what we have done with 17 races.

"Alonso had 18 - and the points were over 18 races. These are facts, not words."


17 races? The only time Vettel didn't score points because of another driver was (arguably) in Malaysia, the other two were because of a car failure. It would be unfair to count those races out.

Edited by SpaceHorseParty, 26 November 2012 - 16:36.


#150 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:41

Alonso's opportunity for the wdc was in Abu Dhabi.

Vettel was handed a penalty putting him at the back of the grid. Alonso then benefited from a safety car closing a 10 second gap to Raikkonen.

With the wdc in his grasp Alonso couldn't hold onto the Lotus. Those seven extra points were what he needed but he didn't get it done.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 26 November 2012 - 16:42.