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Will Alonso ever win another title?


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#251 BackOnTop

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:29

He did that.

Yup.... and immediately threw the "Miracle of Rules" out of his pram to devalue Sebastian Vettel's brilliance at pressure race in Brazil.

Alonso talks too much & degrades other competitors for anyone to take him seriously or neutral F1 fans to support him. He needs some kind of therapy for sure regarding being a sore loser.

Rest, my wishes regarding WDC winners have been coming true since 2007... so I got no complaints against Alonso for continuing to lose to a wonderful finnish champion, a green rookie, a dead-to-back englishman, & the greatest kid the world has ever seen so far in 3 years.

My theme every year is simple... anyone but a politician as Champion.



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#252 Creepy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:37

Yup.... and immediately threw the "Miracle of Rules" out of his pram to devalue Sebastian Vettel's brilliance at pressure race in Brazil.

Alonso talks too much & degrades other competitors for anyone to take him seriously or neutral F1 fans to support him. He needs some kind of therapy for sure regarding being a sore loser.

Rest, my wishes regarding WDC winners have been coming true since 2007... so I got no complaints against Alonso for continuing to lose to a wonderful finnish champion, a green rookie, a dead-to-back englishman, & the greatest kid the world has ever seen so far in 3 years.

My theme every year is simple... anyone but a politician as Champion.


You are free to wish as you please, but wishes like that being thrown on Alonso will only make to taste better the new WDCs that surely the Spaniard will get. :)

#253 eric2610

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:42

Alonso can talk as much as he wants to, his Gladiator/Samurai/WDC of the hearts stuff at the moment will be foregotten in a few years. If he retires with another WDC he will be a 2xWDC nothing else. 2nd Places will not be remebered by the majority of "not hardcore F1 fans" Even if he says this Season was his best and bla bla, the Seasons he will be remebered about are his 2 WDC Seasons.

#254 BackOnTop

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:45

It is not my intention to make Alonso look bad. How could I? Who cares for what I am writing?

Just this Worldchampion-of-the-Hearts-Samurai-Gladiator stuff won't get through to me. F1 is a sport which is ultimately decided by points, not by sympathy or worthiness. If I'm second then it's time to congratulate the winner. That's just my humble opinion.

:up:

Fernando Alonso:- "Frankly, I'm not that interested in what the opinion is of me in Germany or elsewhere. What I know is that people who see me in the streets hug me and call me gladiator or samurai,"

Meanwhile, in other News:- People have taken to streets world over 'calling' Sebastian Vettel the youngest Triple world Champion. :)

Edited by BackOnTop, 04 December 2012 - 12:51.


#255 BackOnTop

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:46

You are free to wish as you please, but wishes like that being thrown on Alonso will only make to taste better the new WDCs that surely the Spaniard will get. :)

Cool!

Talk is cheap by the way.

#256 sailor

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:50

For Alonso to win, RBR and McLaren both have to lose the development race.

Currently even if RBR were not good at the start - they ended up as the best package
Same with McLaren - after a mid season dip - they turned into the fastest (albeit unreliable) package.

Also , at the level of drivers , the competition has increased too much since teh days when Alonso first won.

There is Lewsi now (who already has beaten Alonso)
Then Vettel has come in and almost blitzed the field last three years
Kimi has had a fantastic comeback alongwith Lotus taking strides towards the top

to make matters worse Massa has woken up

If one driver or team slips up , then there is another one to bag the benefits

Alonso on paper should be able to close the deal but I have to say it gonna be hard.

Edited by sailor, 04 December 2012 - 12:51.


#257 Creepy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:13

Cool!

Talk is cheap by the way.


Wishes are even cheaper. :)

#258 BackOnTop

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:31

Wishes are even cheaper. :)

It's better to Wish quietly then to Big-Talk aloud!

There in lies Alonso's problems in one sentence. Also, your "talk" has lost 6 years running.... so maybe you & Alonso need a change of strategy :D

Edited by BackOnTop, 04 December 2012 - 13:31.


#259 Kelateboy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:35

Also , at the level of drivers , the competition has increased too much since teh days when Alonso first won.

There is Lewsi now (who already has beaten Alonso)
Then Vettel has come in and almost blitzed the field last three years
Kimi has had a fantastic comeback alongwith Lotus taking strides towards the top

to make matters worse Massa has woken up

Massa and Hamilton will not be a threat to Alonso next year.

But Button might be if McLaren could produce the same kind of performance as this year, minus the reliability issues and operational cock-ups.


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#260 wrcva

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:50

Alonso has been pleasure to watch this year with his great driving but his ego is such a turn off undermining that great driving talent he has. He has been missing great opportunities despite having the full backing of the team with the best resources, and the sponsor with deep pockets. If he cannot close the deal in those arguably "dream" conditions for any driver, it is hard to see what else needed to get the job done. Ferrari needs to calm down, not make emotional decisions in haste, and focus on their core business: racing and winning (as opposed to focusing on marketing for the bank).

His self rating 10/10, all this silly Samurai stuff... Domenicali joining him to give the team 7/10 rating for the whole year, along with his CYA management philosophy "I don't design the car" are good places to start looking inside for a better self assessment. These guys are supposed to be the leaders for an organization that already gave, and is expected to give Alonso a winning car, huh... not an inspiring public display of leadership. This is a team sport. When was the last time you felt great about your own job when your bosses told you how great they were or tried to leave you high and dry when the going got tough? Bottom line is he did have a car to contest the championship until the last race.

I still cannot get my head around the fact that Ferrari, with their unlimited resources, were not able to realize that the wind-tunnel was sh*t all along... yet, the Ferrari camp is still talking about the Newey miracle, instead of helping the team focus on identifying how they ended up with a messed up wind-tunnel to begin with... If he is planning to retire from Ferrari with a WDC he needs to help the team get better (wasn't development, and leadership a part of the deal?) I don't think the answer is in miracles but it is in motivated human resources doing their job under a competent leadership.

In sports every point has an equal weight. Weather, SC, idiotic actions of other drivers (Spa), or idiotic actions of self (Japan), or the other sh*t that happens are all part of the season. So far, we have not heard anything from Ferrari or Fred about anything self-critical. Everything it is somebody elses fault. You know, once in a while accepting responsibility and being able to say "we were not good enough to win it" would be a great start to fix their situation. Discussions like "it took Shumi 5 years to win" are already paving the way for justifying next year's potential failure as well - low expectations, and justification culture never helps.

So, IMO Ferrari and Alonso's biggest challenge is not external but internal... they certainly have the brains, the talent, and resources but I am not sure if they have the right leadership focus, organizational agility, and that necessary killer instinct at the margins to close the deal. this whole Massa situation is a good example for the lack of racing focus for the organization. Why is he still driving for Ferrari? Because Santander cannot afford to upset the Brazilian market as they are trying to offset their losses in Spain. There is nothing wrong with Ferrari helping out a sponsor but sometimes business decisions may not be optimal for racing outcomes…

That said, is he capable of winning? Absolutely, he is one of the best drivers out there but his biggest barrier is self -- his mouth and his attitude.

I suspect the blame games will intensify shortly after the dust settles ...

Edited by wrcva, 06 December 2012 - 03:55.


#261 Lemans

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:51

Will the Euro zone recover?

Will the Toronto Maple Leafs ever win a cup again?

Will religion trump science?

Predictions are a mug's game.


Never!



#262 Fontainebleau

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 15:05

Talk is cheap by the way.

That might explain your latest posts... :drunk:


#263 lustigson

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 16:01

Six seasons completed now without Alonso winning the world championship.

I can't immediately think of another driver who added a title after such a gap, so history is not on his side.

What do you think?

I very much think he could win another championship.

Of course, Alonso's titles date back to 2005 and 2006, but he was within a single point in '07 (3rd), within 4 points in '10 and within 3 points last season. Had small things gone different during those seasons, Alonso would now be 5-time World Champion.

About history: as previously mentioned, Niki Lauda won a 3rd title after 7 years — 2 of which spent in retirement, by the way — and his highest WDC position in said period was 4th, while Michael Schumacher won his 3rd and subsequent titles after 5 seasons, in which period his highest WDC position was 2nd.

If the 2013 Ferrari is marginally better than last year's car, and Red Bull and McLaren are on a similar level of competition, Alonso could quite easily nick it. (It is to be expected, of course, that both Red Bull and McLaren will be better than last season, as well, so Ferrari have their work cut out for them.)

Edited by lustigson, 04 December 2012 - 16:01.


#264 BackOnTop

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 16:06

I still cannot get my head around the fact that Ferrari, with their unlimited resources, were not able to realize that the wind-tunnel was sh*t all along... yet, the Ferrari camp is still talking about the Newey miracle, instead of helping the team focus on identifying how they ended up with a messed up wind-tunnel to begin with...

If he is planning to retire from Ferrari with a WDC he needs to help the team get better (wasn't development, and leadership a part of the deal?) I don't think the answer is in miracles but it is in motivated human resources doing their job under a competent leadership.

Discussions like "it took Shumi 5 years to win" are already paving the way for justifying next year's potential failure as well - low expectations, and justification culture never helps. So, IMO Ferrari and Alonso's biggest challenge is not external but internal. That said, is he capable of winning? Absolutely, he is one of the best drivers out there but his biggest barrier is self -- his mouth and his attitude.
I suspect the blame games will intensify shortly after the dust settles ...

Wow, Great Post wrcva once again.

Yes, one of the reasons given for hiring Alonso & paying off Kimi Raikkonen 20 million approx were exactly those. In any case, Fernando Alonso is not possibly to be blamed for Ferrari paying off their last world Champion and robbing an athlete of 2 prime years at 31 & 32. Like has been noted earlier, and as also commented by RBR's Marko..... Alonso develops huge political skills when losing. And Alonso was losing most of his time in Renault and looked desperate to move to a big team, of which only Ferrari were at Mclaren levels, & RedBull not yet' .

So Alonso & Santander together start to sell a beautiful story, Ferrari brought that beautiful story & chose to disgrace their active Champion to justify their deal to the public. This one is for them who claim that Alonso is blameless for Ferrari failing to make fast car. From the article below, Alonso sold himself as a Car Developer & Ferrari 'brought' him for his Car Developing Skills. 3 years, and the car is still sh!t (according to Alonso himself), so what's going wrong here??

Domenicali: Alonso is better at development than Raikkonen- December 2009
http://www.jamesalle...s-ferrari-boss/

Domenicali’s comments will dismay Raikkonen, who has just signed a contract to compete in the World Rally Championship. I have checked with Ferrari and the quotes are genuine. They are downplaying the Raikkonen comments as ‘superficial’, however they say that the sentiments about Alonso are what the team feels at this time. Domenicali was quoted yesterday in German tabloid Auto Bild saying, “Ferrari needs someone for the team similar to Schumi.” Referring to Raikkonen he said, “In a car that is capable of winning, he was and is perfect. But if the car needs to be developed and the team fired up, Alonso is better.”

Alonso has always talked up his ability to develop a car, famously during his time at McLaren, claiming to have brought almost a second per lap to the car.

Kimi Raikkonen was hired by Jean Todt in 2006 and when explaining his reasons, Todt said that Raikkonen did not speak too much, which he saw as a strength. He focussed on driving the car. But over time it became clear that while this was a positive in some senses, the team was looking to him for more leadership.

But perhaps they did not understand the Finn.


I guess Alonso seriously needs to get off Twitter, give up the Samurai cause & enroll himself for a refresher course in Car Dev Skills! Not only because of his failure to "help" develop Ferrari to major trophies in 3 years, but also because the Driver who Ferrari ousted, is helping break most of his myths.

Rating Kimi Raikkonen’s technical ability- December 2011
http://www.f1zone.ne...-ability/10802/

Jenson Button,
Adrian Newey, designer of the championship-winning Red Bull RB6 and RB7
BBC’s pitlane reporter, Ted Kravitz revealed that long after Raikkonen had left McLaren
Former Ferrari technical director Ross Brawn, currently the team principal of Mercedes GP
Chris Dyer, Raikkonen’s championship winning race engineer at Ferrari, has said in the past.

Raikkonen displayed some stunning performances in the latter half of the 2009 season after Ferrari halted development on the F60 to focus on the 2010 car.

F1 journalist James Allen
Autosport editor Jonathan Noble also reported
Martin Whitmarsh- “I am a Kimi fan and I have never made a secret of it"


Kimi Raikkonen's 2012 season proves Adrian Newey, Mclaren, Jean Todt and the likes are correct over some Bank Job. And perhaps, Ferrari have the worst HR Department and can be blamed for lack of Trophies.

Alonso in a Ferrari couldn't beat the out-funded/out-developed Lotus at Abu Dhabi. Alonso should have beaten Raikkonen after the safety car, & 7 extra points for the Championship. Alonso lacks something at most season ending races, but it's hard to find what. Alonso might find it very hard to win another championship if returning, useless drivers (according to Ferrari) in midfield teams carry on taking points off him. Especially bad if he continues to act as a Messiah & "Leader" of Ferrari trying to tell Pat Fry he's done a sh!t job for the whole season. One of these days, Fry might just tell him to talk less, drive more!!

PS- Finding hard to search "Good Quotes/Praises" from Ex-Teams about Alonso's feedback or development skills! I wanted to add them here to give a Positive viewpoint about Alonso's skills as well..... but all I keep getting is the .6 Tenths he brought with him to Mclaren. We all know how that turned out. So if any, it'll be nice to know as it'll kinda determine if Alonso can get the car to win another Wdc.

Edited by BackOnTop, 04 December 2012 - 16:18.


#265 sailor

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 16:19

Wow, Great Post wrcva once again.

Yes, one of the reasons given for hiring Alonso & paying off Kimi Raikkonen 20 million approx were exactly those. In any case, Fernando Alonso is not possibly to be blamed for Ferrari paying off their last world Champion and robbing an athlete of 2 prime years at 31 & 32. Like has been noted earlier, and as also commented by RBR's Marko..... Alonso develops huge political skills when losing. And Alonso was losing most of his time in Renault and looked desperate to move to a big team, of which only Ferrari were at Mclaren levels, & RedBull not yet' .

So Alonso & Santander together start to sell a beautiful story, Ferrari brought that beautiful story & chose to disgrace their active Champion to justify their deal to the public. This one is for them who claim that Alonso is blameless for Ferrari failing to make fast car. From the article below, Alonso sold himself as a Car Developer & Ferrari 'brought' him for his Car Developing Skills. 3 years, and the car is still sh!t (according to Alonso himself), so what's going wrong here??



I guess Alonso seriously needs to get off Twitter, give up the Samurai cause & enroll himself for a refresher course in Car Dev Skills! Not only because of his failure to "help" develop Ferrari to major trophies in 3 years, but also because the Driver who Ferrari ousted, is helping break most of his myths.



Alonso in a Ferrari couldn't beat the out-funded/out-developed Lotus at Abu Dhabi. Alonso should have beaten Raikkonen after the safety car, & 7 extra points for the Championship. Alonso lacks something at most season ending races, but it's hard to find what. Alonso might find it very hard to win another championship if returning, useless drivers (according to Ferrari) in midfield teams carry on taking points off him. Especially bad if he continues to act as a Messiah & "Leader" of Ferrari trying to tell Pat Fry he's done a sh!t job for the whole season. One of these days, Fry might just tell him to talk less, drive more!!

PS- Finding hard to search "Good Quotes/Praises" from Ex-Teams about Alonso's feedback or development skills! I wanted to add them here to give a Positive viewpoint about Alonso's skills as well..... but all I keep getting is the .6 Tenths he brought with him to Mclaren. We all know how that turned out. So if any, it'll be nice to know as it'll kinda determine if Alonso can get the car to win another Wdc.


Good one :lol:


hell hath no fury as a Kimi fan scorned as Ferrari learnet the hard way :)


#266 BackOnTop

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 16:36

Good one :lol:


hell hath no fury as a Kimi fan scorned as Ferrari learnet the hard way :)

it's sometimes a good start to look internally to mistakes made and learn from it.... you seem to do what Ferrari & Alonso are doing, shouting over the results.

The mistake here is not Kimi Raikkonen or Fernando Alonso. You miss the point in your haste... Ferrari needs to get back in control. Currently, it's being led by a 'driver'. Yet again, it's not Alonso's fault that Domi, Luca & Ferrari are inept enough to hire drivers in 2009 hoping they'd lead the team.

It hasn't worked for 3 years now. There is no hell here.... Kimi Raikkonen has been the most popular, most talked about & one of the best stories of the 2012 season.

I don't know what makes you think Kimi Fans are unhappy. :wave:

Edited by BackOnTop, 04 December 2012 - 16:45.


#267 Creepy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 16:50

People need to move one and leave resentments in the past, specially because of events that happened years ago. Besides, what Ferrari "did to Kimi" has nothing to do with Alonso and his WDC.

#268 Fontainebleau

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 16:50

it's sometimes a good start to look internally to mistakes made and learn from it.... you seem to do what Ferrari & Alonso are doing, shouting over the results.

The mistake here is not Kimi Raikkonen or Fernando Alonso. You miss the point in your haste... Ferrari needs to get back in control. Currently, it's being led by a 'driver'. Yet again, it's not Alonso's fault that Domi, Luca & Ferrari are inept enough to hire drivers in 2009 hoping they'd lead the team.

It hasn't worked for 3 years now. There is no hell here.... Kimi Raikkonen has been the most popular, most talked about & one of the best stories of the 2012 season.

I don't know what makes you think Kimi Fans are unhappy. :wave:

Their constant ranting in every single thread that speaks of Alonso and /or Ferrari? Happy people tend not to bother with people they hate, and certainly don't spend their time basking in their "enemies" real or figured troubles, but enjoy the good things they have in their lives.

Not all Raikkonen fans are like that, of course. But some seem bent in re-writing history, digging out years-old articles that they think prove their points while totally dismissing the opposite views presented by relevant people during those years.

#269 sailor

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 17:02

it's sometimes a good start to look internally to mistakes made and learn from it.... you seem to do what Ferrari & Alonso are doing, shouting over the results.

The mistake here is not Kimi Raikkonen or Fernando Alonso. You miss the point in your haste... Ferrari needs to get back in control. Currently, it's being led by a 'driver'. Yet again, it's not Alonso's fault that Domi, Luca & Ferrari are inept enough to hire drivers in 2009 hoping they'd lead the team.

It hasn't worked for 3 years now. There is no hell here.... Kimi Raikkonen has been the most popular, most talked about & one of the best stories of the 2012 season.

I don't know what makes you think Kimi Fans are unhappy. :wave:


because I am a Kimi fan... and I did wish Ferrari dont win any titles after they unceremoniously dropped Kimi. Good thing that Sebastian dawned just in the nick of time :)

Nothing against Alonso apart from the fun fact of how some fans make him the Messiah !

#270 BackOnTop

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 17:12

Their constant ranting in every single thread that speaks of Alonso and /or Ferrari? Happy people tend not to bother with people they hate, and certainly don't spend their time basking in their "enemies" real or figured troubles, but enjoy the good things they have in their lives.

Not all Raikkonen fans are like that, of course. But some seem bent in re-writing history, digging out years-old articles that they think prove their points while totally dismissing the opposite views presented by relevant people during those years.

That's not even possible of course. Also, many Kimi fans can only be very very happy with Ferrari.

Kimi Raikkonen with Ferrari.... holds the Highest paid motorsport driver, 1 Wdc 2007 & 2 Wdc, Most Fastest lap 2008 and a big fat checkout fees in 2009.... exactly at the precise moment when Ferrari team were beginning to go downhill with their "New Driver Policy" & RedBull got some upswing.

As a Kimi fan, why would anyone want to re-write history. It's played out perfect overall, with the Race win in Abu Dhabi as a nice topping. I think Kimi getting a kick out of Rallying & Nascar has only established him as the Ultimate Multi-Motorsport legend when he hangs his boots. This too, is to the credit of Ferrari that it was possible.

It's good stories for Alonso-Ferrari combination that needs rectifying, not the other way around. If they continue in the same way of self-praising worthlessly, especially when another team has beaten them fair & square for 3 straight years... then good luck to that.

Edited by BackOnTop, 04 December 2012 - 17:29.


#271 Fontainebleau

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 17:57

That's not even possible of course. Also, many Kimi fans can only be very very happy with Ferrari.

Kimi Raikkonen with Ferrari.... holds the Highest paid motorsport driver, 1 Wdc 2007 & 2 Wdc, Most Fastest lap 2008 and a big fat checkout fees in 2009.... exactly at the precise moment when Ferrari team were beginning to go downhill with their "New Driver Policy" & RedBull got some upswing.

As a Kimi fan, why would anyone want to re-write history. It's played out perfect overall, with the Race win in Abu Dhabi as a nice topping. I think Kimi getting a kick out of Rallying & Nascar has only established him as the Ultimate Multi-Motorsport legend when he hangs his boots. This too, is to the credit of Ferrari that it was possible.

It's good stories for Alonso-Ferrari combination that needs rectifying, not the other way around. If they continue in the same way of self-praising worthlessly, especially when another team has beaten them fair & square for 3 straight years... then good luck to that.

Ultimate Multi-Motorsport legend? Why, because he crashed a few times while trying rallying and got thirsty while driving in Nascar?;) What does that make of John Surtees, Superman? :drunk:

And yes, he was handsomely payed - although it is difficult to state he is the highest paid motorsport ever when one keeps on getting contradictory information ( http://en.espnf1.com...tory/81783.html ) and, in fact, nobody has a clue about what the drivers's contracts say. Personally I'd suspect Schumacher would be the one to hold that record, but if it makes you happy to think it was Raikkonen, suit yourself. In any case, it seems that Ferrari concluded that his salary was not really justified.

As for those Alonso/Ferrari stories that you want to rectify, keep on trying. I get the feeling that the relevant people disagree with you. But I have to ask you a question: if Raikkonen does not achieve with Lotus (which, at the end of the day, is the former Renault F1) 2 consecutive WDCs and WCCs, will you keep on repeating it as a mantra to prove how Alonso was infinitely better than him as a driver?

PS To sensible Raikkonen fans: I am fully aware that Raikkonen got some decent results at rallying, given his lack of experience. 27th in his only NASCAR race was not that impressive, but still good for him to try it. However you'll agree with me that our friend BOT has gone a bit OTT in his appreciation of those efforts, so I replied in kind just to make the point of how absurd his/her claim is.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 04 December 2012 - 18:20.


#272 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 18:14

Lots of bitter people in here. As is their right. Will Fer win another WDC? Who knows. I think probably so. Ferrari will have a decent chance in 2013, but those chances get much better in 2014. The new engines & other new regulations could see a new era of Ferrari dominance. Newey excelled in the latest Reg era, and like always the pendulum swings a different way.

Of course I hope Ferrari has a good 2013, and most likely will. How good is anyone's guess, but as 2014 approaches, so does a new era in F1. Ferrari will be able to show again one of their strengths, engines. And Fernando will benefit from this. So yes I think he probably gets another before he retires, but only time will tell.

#273 Watkins74

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 18:30

Kimi Raikkonen with Ferrari.... holds the Highest paid motorsport driver.

That's why he was such a disappointment in 2008 and 2009. He couldn't put Massa in the shade despite making almost 5x's Massa's pay. He was publicly warned to pick up the pace between the 2008 and 2009 season. He failed to deliver and Ferrari used Santander as a tool to get rid of him. Nobody was to impressed by his meaningless fastest laps at the end of the race. Well...Kulta was.

Kimi used to have two nicknames - "The Iceman" and the "Fastest Man in F1". After his nap in 2008 and early 2009 he lost his last nickname.

Kimi used to be my favorite driver but his act got old with me.

As far as Alonso he will retire with more WDC's than KR.

Edited by Watkins74, 04 December 2012 - 18:31.


#274 BackOnTop

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 18:44

Ultimate Multi-Motorsport legend? Why, because he crashed a few times while trying rallying and got thirsty while driving in Nasdaq?;) What does that make of John Surtees, Superman? :drunk:

And yes, he was handsomely payed - although it is difficult to state he is the highest paid motorsport ever when one keeps on getting contradictory information ( http://en.espnf1.com...tory/81783.html ) and, in fact, nobody has a clue about what the drivers's contracts say. Personally I'd suspect Schumacher would be the one to hold that record, but if it makes you happy to think it was Raikkonen, suit yourself. In any case, it seems that Ferrari concluded that his salary was not really justified.

As for those Alonso/Ferrari stories that you want to rectify, keep on trying. I get the feeling that the relevant people disagree with you. But I have to ask you a question: if Raikkonen does not achieve with Lotus (which, at the end of the day, is the former Renault F1) 2 consecutive WDCs and WCCs, will you keep on repeating it as a mantra to prove how Alonso was infinitely better than him as a driver?

Before Kimi joined Lotus/Renault, the team weren't even sure if they'll get another podium & that they'll end up fighting Mclaren, RBR & Ferrari and beat them many times in 2012. It's not Kimi who's obsessing to win another World Title and degrading Vettel's achievements. He has rightfully gained the teams respect with great performances throughout the year and helping save many jobs at Lotus because current sponsors are committing to the team with Kimi being there.


Here are some praises for Alonso from his former Renault F1 team:-
http://www.autoevolu...gles-23151.html
Renault's boss Eric Boullier did not hold back at poor management, as well as Fernando Alonso for his lack of commitment and arrogance throughout the 2009 season.

Here are some praises for Alonso, by Alonso himself:-
http://www.motorspor..._medium=twitter
Fernando Alonso insists he is unmoved after being labelled a 'sore loser', counts 'himself' amongst greatest ever.


Looks like Alonso has now lost to Sebastian Vettel in every aspect, that he has to now resort to force-feeding his self perceived greatness. For 2013, Vettel, Raikkonen & Button are the "strongest" World Champions on the grid.... with Hamilton & Alonso a bit childish and weak because they are distracted by image obsession.

Edited by BackOnTop, 04 December 2012 - 19:06.


#275 velgajski1

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 18:51

A lot of bitter Raikkonen fans here, I don't understand why all this bitterness towards Alonso. Kimi won the title, but he messed up 2008. season real badly, through his own mistakes. Just doing less mistakes with same pace - he'd have the title in 2008., I'm 100% sure of that.

Alonso didn't win the title with Ferrari, but he keeps outperforming Massa, he didn't ruin a great chance like Kimi did in 2008., and Ferrari obviously still believes he can win titles with them.

#276 BackOnTop

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 19:20

That's why he was such a disappointment in 2008 and 2009. He couldn't put Massa in the shade despite making almost 5x's Massa's pay. He was publicly warned to pick up the pace between the 2008 and 2009 season. He failed to deliver and Ferrari used Santander as a tool to get rid of him. Nobody was to impressed by his meaningless fastest laps at the end of the race. Well...Kulta was.

Kimi used to have two nicknames - "The Iceman" and the "Fastest Man in F1". After his nap in 2008 and early 2009 he lost his last nickname.

Kimi used to be my favorite driver but his act got old with me.

As far as Alonso he will retire with more WDC's than KR.

http://www.motorauth...test-lap-record
The Finn set the fastest lap of the sport's first night race; his tenth such achievement in the 15 grands prix so far in 2008.
It equals Michael Schumacher's standing record of ten fastest laps in the 2004 season, an achievement 28-year-old Raikkonen also equalled as a McLaren driver in 2005.



PS- Now just imagine the World's Fastest Man beating Alonso in Abu Dhabi half-asleep LOL.

Edited by BackOnTop, 04 December 2012 - 19:29.


#277 Headspin

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 19:26

A lot of bitter Raikkonen fans here, I don't understand why all this bitterness towards Alonso. Kimi won the title, but he messed up 2008. season real badly, through his own mistakes. Just doing less mistakes with same pace - he'd have the title in 2008., I'm 100% sure of that.

Alonso didn't win the title with Ferrari, but he keeps outperforming Massa, he didn't ruin a great chance like Kimi did in 2008., and Ferrari obviously still believes he can win titles with them.


A lot of bitter Kimi fans? All i see here is one. For calling out Alonso on his pathetic politics BS and lack of sportsmanship and laughing on his teenage mutant ninja turtle trip has nothing to do with being Kimi fan. But maybe people who find those charasteristics of Alonso most repulsing or ridiculous happen to also Kimi fans. Wonder why.

On topic, if there's someone who could trust winning more titles, it's Alonso and propably Vettel. But nothings guaranteed, anything can happen.

Edited by Headspin, 04 December 2012 - 19:34.


#278 Fontainebleau

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 20:11

Before Kimi joined Lotus/Renault, the team weren't even sure if they'll get another podium & that they'll end up fighting Mclaren, RBR & Ferrari and beat them many times in 2012. It's not Kimi who's obsessing to win another World Title and degrading Vettel's achievements. He has rightfully gained the teams respect with great performances throughout the year and helping save many jobs at Lotus because current sponsors are committing to the team with Kimi being there.

In terms of bias, it does not come much stronger than yours. So Raikkonen, sigle-handed, is to be given full recognition for what Lotus has achieved, but Alonso is not to take any credit from getting second in the WDC and WCC, and within striking distance of the WDC. Cool story, bro!


Here are some praises for Alonso from his former Renault F1 team:-
http://www.autoevolu...gles-23151.html
Renault's boss Eric Boullier did not hold back at poor management, as well as Fernando Alonso for his lack of commitment and arrogance throughout the 2009 season.

I would have expected you to know enough to realise that Boullier is a Genii man, who wasn't even in F1 before he signed for the team Genii had bought in 2010. Obviously not the case.

Here are some praises for Alonso, by Alonso himself:-
http://www.motorspor..._medium=twitter
Fernando Alonso insists he is unmoved after being labelled a 'sore loser', counts 'himself' amongst greatest ever.


Looks like Alonso has now lost to Sebastian Vettel in every aspect, that he has to now resort to force-feeding his self perceived greatness. For 2013, Vettel, Raikkonen & Button are the "strongest" World Champions on the grid.... with Hamilton & Alonso a bit childish and weak because they are distracted by image obsession.

Hera are some praises for Alonso, from other than Alonso himself (thanks to Massimo):
"Michael Schumacher Names Alonso as Current Best Driver in F1" http://www.autoevolu...n-f1-48751.html
"Lauda Says Alonso Best Driver in F1" http://www.autoevolu...n-f1-24273.html
"Alonso could be greatest ever driver says Carlos Sainz" http://www.auto123.c...nz?artid=147801

"He reminds me of myself, and a little bit of Prost" Austrian Lauda is quoted as saying.
Another triple world champion, Stewart, agrees.
"I am amused with all the polls about who is the best now in Formula One, and I am amazed when I see that there is doubt. I do not [doubt] Alonso is number one, [he's] in another dimension to the others," he said.
1997 champion Villeneuve shared the Renault garage with Alonso for a time, noting that the almost 31-year-old is “the only one who makes no mistakes”.
“Yes, obviously he is the big favourite for the title,” the French Canadian added.
1996 winner Hill added: “I admire the work done by Ferrari, but that the team is now so competitive is also to his (Alonso’s) credit.”
Quadruple title winner Prost said: "Fernando does things calmly, and knows how to get out the most, even without the best equipment."
http://www.inautonew...so#.UL5YQORPijM


I am sure that Alonso (and his fans) will be devastated that you do not agree with Schumacher, Lauda, Sainz, Stewart, Villeneuve, Hill or Prost. Oh, and Hamilton too!

PS http://www.radiospor...urray-26jul2012

Edited by Fontainebleau, 04 December 2012 - 20:17.


#279 BackOnTop

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 20:44

I think it's not a bad thing to debate about anything, such as drivers dislike, comparisions, myths & legends. I think so far we all are giving our viewpoint, and it's very nice to see some old articles being linked by many above.

About Alonso, just because only Negatives are being highlighted, it doesn't mean that Alonso has no positives. In fact, he has numerous. Some are irritatingly great features like brilliant race craft, overtaking skills, race starts and first lap gains.

One of the standout features of Alonso has been Reliabilty from the Team. Renault 05-06, Mclaren 07, Ferrari 10-11-12. It's uncanny that whichever team Alonso has joined, has become extremely reliable.

That has been his biggest asset, but also his least mentioned. Maybe because drivers don't develop cars, it's debateable. But Alonso's car gets home, thats why he will always be challenging for Wdc with a team like Ferrari.

Edited by BackOnTop, 04 December 2012 - 20:55.


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#280 Trust

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 20:56

Kimi fans should avoid this thread. It's becoming embarrasing.

#281 keeppari

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 21:17

Gladiators died or were killed off upon losing a fight.
Samurais were so ashamed of losing that they resorted to suicide.

Most gladiators and samurais are also best remembered for their brutal demise instead of actually winning something. It seems Alonso is already building a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy there so I guess the answer to the titular question is no. Now, all that's left to be seen, is whether he takes honourable way out or if the Caesar of Maranello gives him the final thumb down.

#282 Lone

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 21:22

Ultimate Multi-Motorsport legend? Why, because he crashed a few times while trying rallying and got thirsty while driving in Nascar?;) What does that make of John Surtees, Superman? :drunk:

And yes, he was handsomely payed - although it is difficult to state he is the highest paid motorsport ever when one keeps on getting contradictory information ( http://en.espnf1.com...tory/81783.html ) and, in fact, nobody has a clue about what the drivers's contracts say. Personally I'd suspect Schumacher would be the one to hold that record, but if it makes you happy to think it was Raikkonen, suit yourself. In any case, it seems that Ferrari concluded that his salary was not really justified.

As for those Alonso/Ferrari stories that you want to rectify, keep on trying. I get the feeling that the relevant people disagree with you. But I have to ask you a question: if Raikkonen does not achieve with Lotus (which, at the end of the day, is the former Renault F1) 2 consecutive WDCs and WCCs, will you keep on repeating it as a mantra to prove how Alonso was infinitely better than him as a driver?

PS To sensible Raikkonen fans: I am fully aware that Raikkonen got some decent results at rallying, given his lack of experience. 27th in his only NASCAR race was not that impressive, but still good for him to try it. However you'll agree with me that our friend BOT has gone a bit OTT in his appreciation of those efforts, so I replied in kind just to make the point of how absurd his/her claim is.


I'm not only a Räikkonnen fan but I guess I'm allowed to answer as well. You talk about the former Renault and compare todays team with the works team it use to be when Alonso drove there. I believe there is quite a big difference in the budget from the years Renault ran the team and today when a no car manufactur runs the team. Or maybe I'm completely wrong?


#283 motorhead

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 21:26

A lot of bitter Raikkonen fans here, I don't understand why all this bitterness towards Alonso. Kimi won the title, but he messed up 2008. season real badly, through his own mistakes. Just doing less mistakes with same pace - he'd have the title in 2008., I'm 100% sure of that.

Alonso didn't win the title with Ferrari, but he keeps outperforming Massa, he didn't ruin a great chance like Kimi did in 2008., and Ferrari obviously still believes he can win titles with them.


Actually Alonso did a lot of mistakes 2010 when he was challenging for WDC. I agree that he has driven superbly after that...if he only could keep down those comments of his own greatness...

#284 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 21:49

I'm not only a Räikkonnen fan but I guess I'm allowed to answer as well. You talk about the former Renault and compare todays team with the works team it use to be when Alonso drove there. I believe there is quite a big difference in the budget from the years Renault ran the team and today when a no car manufactur runs the team. Or maybe I'm completely wrong?


Indeed they are a much different team than when Alonso was there. Saw the latest Kimi story on AS front page where he says its all racing, no politics. I like that.

FTR, many current Ferrari fans(myself included) still like or have a soft spot for Kimi. Some obviously can't stand him. But that's with everyone, everywhere. I'm just trying to avoid a lot of confusion here & flaming posts for no reason.

Kimi was brought up by someone who doesn't like Fer, and unlike his name, he's Over The Top, not back on. So FB isn't trying to dog Kimi out, but the guy is ridiculous right now. Great 3rd in WDC this year. I said before season started he would get at least one win.



#285 sniper80

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 21:53

Either Raikkonen or Alonso will win the title in 2013.

#286 Creepy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 22:30

Either Raikkonen or Alonso will win the title in 2013.


Yup!

#287 f1rookie

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:22

Yes Alonso can win another F1 title, Alonso is the Man, entire this season he fight with powerless machine. Need better machine for 2013 F1.

Ferrari animation video for achieve 10 million fans on their Facebook fanpage



#288 Torsion

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:14

Lots of bitter people in here. As is their right. Will Fer win another WDC? Who knows. I think probably so. Ferrari will have a decent chance in 2013, but those chances get much better in 2014. The new engines & other new regulations could see a new era of Ferrari dominance. Newey excelled in the latest Reg era, and like always the pendulum swings a different way.

Of course I hope Ferrari has a good 2013, and most likely will. How good is anyone's guess, but as 2014 approaches, so does a new era in F1. Ferrari will be able to show again one of their strengths, engines. And Fernando will benefit from this. So yes I think he probably gets another before he retires, but only time will tell.


I am interested to know the opinion of Ferrari fans as to how strong Felipe would be next year, and whether he would be there challenging Fernando for the wins. I think if Felipe does perform at this level, he would probably be the biggest obstacle for Fernando to go for his next title.

This in my opinion has nothing to do with Fernando's driving - which is top drawer, but I do think that psychologically he likes to be a clear leader, and for me, it would be interesting to see how he would react if that was not the case.

Edited by Torsion, 05 December 2012 - 10:15.


#289 nectar

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:54


After reading some posts here I don' t know why, just growing sympathetic towards Alonso. All these years it was great to see him always fighting at the top, though never my type of racer I can understand why people feel inspired by him. Being a Kimi fan sure I am biased, but this is off season, I can go back drawing a line when the season starts again.

In Monza we saw Nando celebrating on the podium, taking the camera, what a spectacular scene that was! I'm sure he and Ferrari then (and most of the media i recall) were almost certain that they had this championship in the bag. His way of celebrating kind of made me think that the man has enormous pressure that we cannot imagine, being a Ferrari driver, and all the expectations from tifosi, management and sponsors. After missing out 2010 champion they really needed this one I think, because I cannot recall when was the last time he got so emotional on the podium - Valencia we all saw him cry and it was then I realized that it's not been easy for him at all. I say if anyone is almost "desperately" wanting to win this championship it's Alonso.
Let's face it, Ferrari and Santander did a controversial thing that still has some effect today. By buying out Raikkonen's contract and dragging his name through the mud, Ferrari established Alonso as a better driver, and a lot of people were waiting for Alonso to justify that decision. The only thing I think they didn't expect, though, was the rapid rising of the Red Bull and their depth of capability to lead F1, and it kind of spoiled Ferrari's plans.

All in all, on topic, Alonso had the pressure to win this title maybe more than anyone on the grid, then again, it's just my impression. I have no interest in comparing Alonso and Raikkonen, you either like their style or you don't. However I don't see any special reason why any of the champions on the grid given the right circumstances couldn't win the title again. Who can see tomorrow?

PS some of the posts really were talking nonsense about Kimi. Unless you know absolutely everything about what happened in Marnello in 2008 & 2009 and could be personally responsible for what you said, could you stop acting as Ferrari's megaphone? The man would not speak the truth out, but also we don't need to hear the malicious comments from you too. Thank you.





#290 Ncedi

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:06

After reading some posts here I don' t know why, just growing sympathetic towards Alonso. All these years it was great to see him always fighting at the top, though never my type of racer I can understand why people feel inspired by him. Being a Kimi fan sure I am biased, but this is off season, I can go back drawing a line when the season starts again.

In Monza we saw Nando celebrating on the podium, taking the camera, what a spectacular scene that was! I'm sure he and Ferrari then (and most of the media i recall) were almost certain that they had this championship in the bag. His way of celebrating kind of made me think that the man has enormous pressure that we cannot imagine, being a Ferrari driver, and all the expectations from tifosi, management and sponsors. After missing out 2010 champion they really needed this one I think, because I cannot recall when was the last time he got so emotional on the podium - Valencia we all saw him cry and it was then I realized that it's not been easy for him at all. I say if anyone is almost "desperately" wanting to win this championship it's Alonso.
Let's face it, Ferrari and Santander did a controversial thing that still has some effect today. By buying out Raikkonen's contract and dragging his name through the mud, Ferrari established Alonso as a better driver, and a lot of people were waiting for Alonso to justify that decision. The only thing I think they didn't expect, though, was the rapid rising of the Red Bull and their depth of capability to lead F1, and it kind of spoiled Ferrari's plans.

All in all, on topic, Alonso had the pressure to win this title maybe more than anyone on the grid, then again, it's just my impression. I have no interest in comparing Alonso and Raikkonen, you either like their style or you don't. However I don't see any special reason why any of the champions on the grid given the right circumstances couldn't win the title again. Who can see tomorrow?

PS some of the posts really were talking nonsense about Kimi. Unless you know absolutely everything about what happened in Marnello in 2008 & 2009 and could be personally responsible for what you said, could you stop acting as Ferrari's megaphone? The man would not speak the truth out, but also we don't need to hear the malicious comments from you too. Thank you.


Perfect post...thank you very much.

/Thread :)


#291 Fontainebleau

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:39

I'm not only a Räikkonnen fan but I guess I'm allowed to answer as well. You talk about the former Renault and compare todays team with the works team it use to be when Alonso drove there. I believe there is quite a big difference in the budget from the years Renault ran the team and today when a no car manufactur runs the team. Or maybe I'm completely wrong?

You could very well be right, I have no information about how the team's budget has evolved over the last few years. But, as CrucialXtreme explained, my point is just to show how ridiculous some of the statements that some forumers are making in this thread are.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 05 December 2012 - 11:40.


#292 mkoscevic

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 15:38

IF you're addressing the thread title, not the post previous, :up:


:up:

#293 Creepy

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 15:53

After reading some posts here I don' t know why, just growing sympathetic towards Alonso. All these years it was great to see him always fighting at the top, though never my type of racer I can understand why people feel inspired by him. Being a Kimi fan sure I am biased, but this is off season, I can go back drawing a line when the season starts again.

In Monza we saw Nando celebrating on the podium, taking the camera, what a spectacular scene that was! I'm sure he and Ferrari then (and most of the media i recall) were almost certain that they had this championship in the bag. His way of celebrating kind of made me think that the man has enormous pressure that we cannot imagine, being a Ferrari driver, and all the expectations from tifosi, management and sponsors. After missing out 2010 champion they really needed this one I think, because I cannot recall when was the last time he got so emotional on the podium - Valencia we all saw him cry and it was then I realized that it's not been easy for him at all. I say if anyone is almost "desperately" wanting to win this championship it's Alonso.
Let's face it, Ferrari and Santander did a controversial thing that still has some effect today. By buying out Raikkonen's contract and dragging his name through the mud, Ferrari established Alonso as a better driver, and a lot of people were waiting for Alonso to justify that decision. The only thing I think they didn't expect, though, was the rapid rising of the Red Bull and their depth of capability to lead F1, and it kind of spoiled Ferrari's plans.

All in all, on topic, Alonso had the pressure to win this title maybe more than anyone on the grid, then again, it's just my impression. I have no interest in comparing Alonso and Raikkonen, you either like their style or you don't. However I don't see any special reason why any of the champions on the grid given the right circumstances couldn't win the title again. Who can see tomorrow?

PS some of the posts really were talking nonsense about Kimi. Unless you know absolutely everything about what happened in Marnello in 2008 & 2009 and could be personally responsible for what you said, could you stop acting as Ferrari's megaphone? The man would not speak the truth out, but also we don't need to hear the malicious comments from you too. Thank you.


What a refreshing post to read from a non-Alonso fan! :up:

Edited by Buttoneer, 05 December 2012 - 23:57.


#294 Gag Bueno

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 16:17

Since we're talking about a driver who challenged for the WDC until the last race twice in the last two seasons, with skills that can't be doubted ( at least in a reasonable way... ) and who's driving for one of the top teams, I think the thread title has something of a non-issue: Nobody knows, but the chances are there. But being called a troll or 'bitter Kimi fan' for not wishing him another title goes a little too far IMO. As far as I'm concerned 'I wish him all the best as long as the car is not red...' (did I get the quote right?) and wouldn't care much to elaborate...

#295 kosmos

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 16:41

Since we're talking about a driver who challenged for the WDC until the last race twice in the last two seasons, with skills that can't be doubted ( at least in a reasonable way... ) and who's driving for one of the top teams, I think the thread title has something of a non-issue: Nobody knows, but the chances are there. But being called a troll or 'bitter Kimi fan' for not wishing him another title goes a little too far IMO. As far as I'm concerned 'I wish him all the best as long as the car is not red...' (did I get the quote right?) and wouldn't care much to elaborate...


The question is: did you get the context right?.


#296 metz

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 16:42

Nobody deserves to win, except a driver in a lesser car.

#297 as65p

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 16:42

But being called a troll or 'bitter Kimi fan' for not wishing him another title goes a little too far IMO.


That's not the issue, I think. By definition, everyone having a favourite driver wishes for 23 other drivers not to become WDC. It's however not mandatory to make up sh*t about those other drivers.



#298 Gag Bueno

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 17:08

The question is: did you get the context right?.


For making a rather harmless joke with a literal quote, yes. Do you think there is some deeper meaning to it?



That's not the issue, I think. By definition, everyone having a favourite driver wishes for 23 other drivers not to become WDC. It's however not mandatory to make up sh*t about those other drivers.


You're completely right. And what about the 'other side' and the made up demigod status?


#299 Buttoneer

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 23:59

Posts deleted. Kimi is so far off topic here it's not funny.

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#300 fastdriver

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 18:35

A lot of bitter Raikkonen fans here, I don't understand why all this bitterness towards Alonso. Kimi won the title, but he messed up 2008. season real badly, through his own mistakes. Just doing less mistakes with same pace - he'd have the title in 2008., I'm 100% sure of that.

Alonso didn't win the title with Ferrari, but he keeps outperforming Massa, he didn't ruin a great chance like Kimi did in 2008., and Ferrari obviously still believes he can win titles with them.


Wow, does he get a trophy for that? :p