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How did Massa match Alonso in the last 2 deciding races?


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Poll: How did Massa keep up with Alonso? (225 member(s) have cast votes)

How did Massa keep up with Alonso?

  1. Setup choice / technical reasons (62 votes [27.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.56%

  2. Psychological reasons (Massa free to drive aggressively, Alonso driving more careful) (110 votes [48.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.89%

  3. Track preferrences (Massa suits those tracks better) (17 votes [7.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.56%

  4. Other... Please explain (36 votes [16.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.00%

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#51 joshb

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 14:15

What was the score from Spa onwards?

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#52 SpaMaster

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 14:18

Not just the two races, even in Korea as well. That is 3 out of last 5 races. And he was faster in qualy and at various points in the race in the other last races also.

It points to at least one thing. That Alonso was not driving that well in the later part of the season.
Next, the Ferrari was not as bad as Alonso projected and how he was outperforming it, when Massa was tottering around Torro Rossos and Force Indias in the beginning of the season. The car was close to being as good as Alonso drove.

#53 Vesuvius

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 14:18

Massa is just back to his old form seen before 2010, I hope he keeps his current form. What was surprising was to see Massa competitive even when the tyres where the pirellis hardest compounds, before Massa has struggeled with those and only been good with supersofts or softs.

#54 Enzoluis

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 14:29

The russian girlfrend. Like Hakinen´s wife, when showed on TV bring us bad luck.

#55 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 14:37

Because he drove better than him? Massa is very fast, the strange thing was that Alonso was beating him every Grand Prix for 3 years, that was weird.

#56 Sabre1977

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 15:08

What was the score from Spa onwards?

114 / 97

#57 BackOnTop

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 15:22

To bring some factual information to the thread, here are some numbers to compare the qualy-performances before and after the summer break (if you got anything to add or to correct, feel free to do it (numbers are just quickly calculated, race selection/exclusion may not be entirely comprehensive)..).

Before summerbreak:

-Avg. starting position FA: 6.36
-Avg. starting position FM: 11.81

-Fernando was -0.42 faster than Felipe on their respective best quali-attempt

-Avg. gap faster Ferrari pilot - polesitter: 0.72

(races excluded: Bahrain (Alonso no time in Q3), Germany (changing conditions Q2 - Q3))

After summerbreak:

-Avg. starting position FA: 6.77
-Avg. starting position FM: 8.22

-Fernando was -0.26 faster than Felipe on their respective best quali-attempt

-Avg. gap faster Ferrari pilot - polesitter: 0.8

(races excluded: Monza (tech failure for Alonso))

Draw the conclusions yourself, only thing I can say that the numbers somewhat contradict my theory at the beginning of the thread (better car = FM closer to FA). Maybe we can just say Massa is more sensitive to the car, or it's as said just down to the tyres.

Oh, and yeah:





I think the thread started out very objective and fair from all sides. We really don't need this kind of sh** here now.

Good post... & sorry about getting in on the mix.

It's a bit irritating when some try and throw the word "deserving" around. About Massa, looks like he will match Alonso if Ferrari get more might behind him as well.

#58 BackOnTop

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 15:32

I can´t imagine how do you get the conclusion that i was refering to Alonso. :rolleyes:
I suppose that is hard when the fanboysm blinds your eyes, making impossible to understand a simple statement . All the people could see that the deserved winner of Interlagos 2007 was Felipe Massa. :wave:



It´s very strange to judge a driver based on the statements made by his fans (although I´m not an Alonso fan , instead of I´m a Ferrari fan since memorial ages...). I only hope people don´t judge Kimi based on fans like you. :drunk:

You are going way off topic with that one and are only looking to get people riled up. I don't wish to reply to ignorant statements which have no basis of facts involved in it.

Can you show us the footage or technical data which shows Massa pulls over for Kimi to let him by... and prove it to be incorrect that Kimi, with heavier fuel, banged in quicker laps and jumped him in the pit stop. Please, Do not bother with unnecessary "personal feelings" to instigate people around here.

On the other hand, i can show you footage, press reports &/or/with live radio feed:- for e.g, Kimi pulled over for Massa in China 2008, Massa pulled over for Alonso in Germany 2010 & Brazil 2012.
Can you even explain why Massa was deserving winner in the first place??? Thanks.

Don't worry about Kimi fans...

Edited by BackOnTop, 28 November 2012 - 12:14.


#59 SPBHM

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 15:33

I think there's an easy explanation: if the car is good, to Massa's liking and Felipe is "in the mood", he will be as close to Alonso as he has been to Räikkönen. If he doesn't like the car or the car is weaker/more difficult, as it was at the beginning of the season, Alonso will excel. Simple as that imho.



alongside Kimi he went in 2008 from a great car, to a poor car in 2009, and Massa was doing well on races in 2009.... so, it might not be just a "good or bad car", but something with the current car/setup not working for him during the first part of the season?

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#60 Jovanotti

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 15:40

alongside Kimi he went in 2008 from a great car, to a poor car in 2009, and Massa was doing well on races in 2009.... so, it might not be just a "good or bad car", but something with the current car/setup not working for him during the first part of the season?

Yeah you're right, that's why I corrected my statement towards that direction in my longer post.

Draw the conclusions yourself, only thing I can say that the numbers somewhat contradict my theory at the beginning of the thread (better car = FM closer to FA). Maybe we can just say Massa is more sensitive to the car, or it's as said just down to the tyres.


Edited by Jovanotti, 27 November 2012 - 15:41.


#61 RealRacing

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 16:00

Part of the difference at the end of the season may be attributed to FA trying new parts that ended up not working that well. Maybe Ferrari focused from the beginning more on FA's car and, as the season went by, and especially after re-hiring him, they started to try different things for FM that ended up working for him. Maybe FM works better without pressure, maybe FA doesn't work so well under pressure. Maybe FM's psychologist is working for him and maybe, as someone said, the effects of his accident are finally disappearing. Probably, it's a combination of all of these.

However, it'll be interesting to see what happens at the start of next season. AFAIK, there are no major changes that could re-set the development the teams have done this year. I'm not so sure about the tyres though and that's a huge variable. In any case, taking into account that Ferrari have given Massa another chance after a horrible slump, they should make a point in allowing him to prove himself against FA. Knowing Ferrari, I guess the lack of a concrete result will sway the momentum a bit back towards FM next season. Hopefully it's enough to allow a nice intra-team competition.

Edited by RealRacing, 27 November 2012 - 16:00.


#62 Enzoluis

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 16:08

114 / 97


Correcting the gifts of Massa to Alonso makes 102/109.


#63 matthewf1

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 16:17

I think there's an easy explanation: if the car is good, to Massa's liking and Felipe is "in the mood", he will be as close to Alonso as he has been to Räikkönen. If he doesn't like the car or the car is weaker/more difficult, as it was at the beginning of the season, Alonso will excel. Simple as that imho.


my thoughts exactly. very similar to the Hamilton-Button situation (Button in the Massa role).

#64 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 16:31

How do you think one "makes the car faster"? It involves actual mechanical or aerodynamic changes, which in themselves only affect the car's characteristics, not its laptime.

Alonso's race pace iirc was not particularly deficient compared to anyone in 2012. Gary Anderson explained in a BBC column (I'm simplifying here, so apologies) that Ferrari never really figured out how to get the most out of the car in DRS-open qualifying trim. It caused horrendous turn-in oversteer that Alonso couldn't stand. Perhaps Massa and his team found a setup that allowed him to drive around it better. FM is one of the best and there will be some things that he can do better than anyone.

It seems after Abu Dhabi Pat Fry pointed out Alonso's inability to drive around that particular weakness of the F2012, and Fernando responded in his own inimitable way and nearly tore a door off. (Of course you can call all of that blame-shifting, but it highlights how closely wedded the performance of the driver and the design team are.)

Everyone's different and every car is different, so getting consistent results is a matter of adapting to problems like this. Vettel's was arguably more severe, that his Red Bull was apparently not competitive if it didn't get away in the lead of a race. Alonso's genius this year was turning poor qualifying performances into frequently astounding results. Think Malaysia, or Valencia, or Monza, or his run of podium finishes at the end of the year from third/fourth row grid slots.

But that failure to find a solution to his qualifying problems was a huge obstacle for any performance gains. You can't win from 8th every time out, especially not when Vettel's sitting on the front row. Massa's apparent setup breakthrough in the last few races is interesting because it suggests there was something in Fry's criticism of Alonso after all. Whether you want to put Vettel's championship win down to Alonso's shortcomings or Ferrari's failure to keep up with Mclaren and Red Bull's DRS/diffuser development is probably a matter of personal preference.


Interesting take. So Alonso never optimised the car and setup yet Massa did towards the end of the season? If true that makes Alonso's podium rate this year absolutely extraordinary. Helped by Massa towards the end a bit but nevertheless it was probably Alonso's best season.

#65 prty

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 17:05

Draw the conclusions yourself, only thing I can say that the numbers somewhat contradict my theory at the beginning of the thread (better car = FM closer to FA).


Not really, it depends on the definition of better car. If it means quicker, then yes, it contradicts. If it means easier to drive, then no, as the Ferrari gained stability along the year.

#66 Risil

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 17:35

Interesting take. So Alonso never optimised the car and setup yet Massa did towards the end of the season? If true that makes Alonso's podium rate this year absolutely extraordinary. Helped by Massa towards the end a bit but nevertheless it was probably Alonso's best season.


I think Alonso never optimised the car setup in qualifying trim. He didn't legit qualify on the front row in a dry session once this year (needed Hamilton to be sent to the back in Spain). A very unusual stat for someone who finished only three points behind the world champion. Right from the first race, the talking point -- aside from "that Ferrari is a dog" -- was "Wow, wasn't Alonso quick on long runs though?" Could've been to do with extracting performance out of the degradey tyres. Gary Anderson suggests in his end-of-year review that Alonso adapted to the 2012 Pirellis quicker than anyone -- might not show up over one lap but even at Melbourne he was getting them working in race conditions.

Perhaps that's why Alonso's teammates have traditionally struggled so much: he can adapt to difficult machinery, and it's easy then for a team to point to their lead driver's pace and tell the struggler to get on with it, instead of working on what makes the machine difficult in the first place. Call it Stoner-Melandri syndrome. Actually you get the feeling Renault were still doing that in 2007 after Fernando had left the team.

Obviously Massa caught up with Alonso's Pirelli-affinity (like the other top teams did) and found a way of setting up the car that let him drive fast. It's easy to say that that makes him "as good as Alonso" but it really doesn't. Both this year and last the story of the season has been teams getting a stronger and stronger handle on the weird tyres. If you can adapt to them quicker, that's a main part of your job as an F1 driver.

It's also worth pointing out that Massa wasn't exactly dominating Alonso in qualifying at the end of the year. The one/two-tenth gap could be the result of a driver who's looking for results pushing an unstable car harder in qualifying than the one who's got a championship in mind. Fwiw, I'm not surprised that once Massa had a car set up to his liking, he was as quick as Alonso. He did that to Raikkonen in 2008 and parts of 2007, and even troubled Michael Schumacher a little in 2006. He's not to be underestimated.

Edited by Risil, 27 November 2012 - 17:41.


#67 Skinnyguy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 17:38

Easy: Massa went to his former self for whatever reason. And it happened earlier than Austin. And he´s a match for anyone if he´s in that level.

#68 corf

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 17:46

Rob Smedley was interviewed by one of the UK channels on the weekend and attributed to a rebuild of his confidence. Basically he stated that Massa went to stay with him for a while and they rebuilt him mentally (or words to that effect)

#69 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 21:07

when he's on top of his game (mentally, car balance, I don't know what exactly) he's as good as anybody. If you don't trust me just ask kimi....
I don't think it's just related to having a good car (extracting more when the car is good)...he's done some very good races in 2009 and the car was not impressive at all)...



#70 Kucki

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:52

Just rewatched the race. The way Massa looks on the track and his moves look so determined, yet sensible. Not afraid to go to the limit (rear stepping out) making great moves and beeing genuinly fast. You could almost think it was Alonso in that car fighting for the title, not in the other Ferrari.

#71 Fontainebleau

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:13

I see in this thread a number of people trying to have a civilised and rational conversation, and a number of other people speaking nonsense while trying to make a driver they dislike look bad or to avenge some supposed offensed their favourite driver was subject to in the past. Congratulations to the former group, most of your posts made for a very interesting read :)

As for the latter group, get a grip over the sour grapes you harbour, and don't spoil a nice thread :well:

#72 BackOnTop

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:13

Just rewatched the race. The way Massa looks on the track and his moves look so determined, yet sensible. Not afraid to go to the limit (rear stepping out) making great moves and beeing genuinly fast. You could almost think it was Alonso in that car fighting for the title, not in the other Ferrari.

I agree.

Massa was awesome to watch. Brilliant flair and precise movements in a wet & crazy race. The quick thinking move he setup for Alonso while jostling 3 wide with Webber looked great on tv. I was shocked at the gap he had to Alonso in the end, who had a very good race himself.

Good guy. Very eye pleasing whenever they showed a Ferrari car with Red Helmet... and somehow it felt like the blue helmet has more chances of spinning into a wall. Hope he's finally found his 'performance' colour thanks to his dad's helmet design.

Edited by BackOnTop, 28 November 2012 - 12:16.


#73 ryan86

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 23:51

I think the answer to the poll is probably a bit all of the above.

Massa has dug himself out a hole so big that I thought it was going to be impossible to get out of. He's rebuilt his confidence, and understood the tyres and the cars and probably a large volume of the time gap from the very start of the season comes from that. The confidence that when he turns into the corner the car will do what he wants or expects it to do.

I admit to having a soft stop for Massa. Sport can be so cruel, and Massa's defeat to Hamilton in 2008 one of the cruelest. I think Alonso either tightened/or became fatigued, at least during the qualifying towawrds the end of the year. It is funny when we we talk about drivers falling apart/not performing during title deciders that Massa delivered one of the most dominant performances in 2008.

Massa needs to ensure he starts off like this in 2013. I don't expect him to beat Alonso, but he needs to give himself a chance. By the time he got back to Europe this year, he'd almost ensured he was going to have to play a supporting role.

#74 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:49

I think the answer to the poll is probably a bit all of the above.

Massa has dug himself out a hole so big that I thought it was going to be impossible to get out of. He's rebuilt his confidence, and understood the tyres and the cars and probably a large volume of the time gap from the very start of the season comes from that. The confidence that when he turns into the corner the car will do what he wants or expects it to do.

I admit to having a soft stop for Massa. Sport can be so cruel, and Massa's defeat to Hamilton in 2008 one of the cruelest. I think Alonso either tightened/or became fatigued, at least during the qualifying towawrds the end of the year. It is funny when we we talk about drivers falling apart/not performing during title deciders that Massa delivered one of the most dominant performances in 2008.

Massa needs to ensure he starts off like this in 2013. I don't expect him to beat Alonso, but he needs to give himself a chance. By the time he got back to Europe this year, he'd almost ensured he was going to have to play a supporting role.



Alonso was not at 100% as the season finished imo. It was clear in Abu Dhabi that he was suffering a great deal after his battle with Raikkonen. Maybe he was getting a bit run down always having to overcome poor qualifying positions in a car that was difficult.

#75 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:11

I think Alonso never optimised the car setup in qualifying trim. He didn't legit qualify on the front row in a dry session once this year (needed Hamilton to be sent to the back in Spain). A very unusual stat for someone who finished only three points behind the world champion. Right from the first race, the talking point -- aside from "that Ferrari is a dog" -- was "Wow, wasn't Alonso quick on long runs though?" Could've been to do with extracting performance out of the degradey tyres. Gary Anderson suggests in his end-of-year review that Alonso adapted to the 2012 Pirellis quicker than anyone -- might not show up over one lap but even at Melbourne he was getting them working in race conditions.

Perhaps that's why Alonso's teammates have traditionally struggled so much: he can adapt to difficult machinery, and it's easy then for a team to point to their lead driver's pace and tell the struggler to get on with it, instead of working on what makes the machine difficult in the first place. Call it Stoner-Melandri syndrome. Actually you get the feeling Renault were still doing that in 2007 after Fernando had left the team.

Obviously Massa caught up with Alonso's Pirelli-affinity (like the other top teams did) and found a way of setting up the car that let him drive fast. It's easy to say that that makes him "as good as Alonso" but it really doesn't. Both this year and last the story of the season has been teams getting a stronger and stronger handle on the weird tyres. If you can adapt to them quicker, that's a main part of your job as an F1 driver.

It's also worth pointing out that Massa wasn't exactly dominating Alonso in qualifying at the end of the year. The one/two-tenth gap could be the result of a driver who's looking for results pushing an unstable car harder in qualifying than the one who's got a championship in mind. Fwiw, I'm not surprised that once Massa had a car set up to his liking, he was as quick as Alonso. He did that to Raikkonen in 2008 and parts of 2007, and even troubled Michael Schumacher a little in 2006. He's not to be underestimated.


Very very good last two posts mate. I myself(Ferrari fan first/ALO 2nd) have been trying to sort the end of the season difference and your explanations make perfect sense to me.

I think it's obvious Fernando can adapt to the "bad car" quicker than Felipe. I think, as you mentioned, part of the Quali difference was down to one driver in serious contention for the WDC(being cautious) while the other basically had nothing to lose(contract extended). Big difference. Of course Alonso haters will claim Felipe was better regardless, and in a sense he was, but it doesn't tell the whole story, in much the same way Mark out-Quali'd Seb in the last 2-3 GP's.

I completely agree that Felipe isn't to be underestimated. Yes he's had a bad run more or less since his accident but IMHO, he's a very capable driver and has proven as much the last few GP's. Which brings into question next year. As mentioned the new 2013 tyres will play a huge role in performance, much like this year. Hembrey has already stated the 2013 tyre will completely change the Aerodynamic impact on the cars. But with Felipe's newfound confidence alongside his new/er setup breakthrough, he could very well give Fernando a run for his money. He out-Quali'd Fernando a few times on merit in 2010 as well. So we know he can do it.

No I don't think he's overall a better driver than Fer, but I do think on any given weekend he can beat him. Of course it bodes well for Ferrari(:up) that Felipe has regained some form and maybe, just maybe if Felipe can carry this momentum through the winter into next season, Ferrari can have a proper go at the WCC. Forza Ferrari :up:

#76 George Costanza

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:23

Seb was outqualified 3-2 by Webber in the last 5 races this year, had an adventure in abu dhabi that included contact with other cars, running off the road under SC, plus on top of that had a bad start and was a bit average during the start and first corners in Brazil. should we call him a choker too?

I think they all tighten up a bit on the run in to a championship, Hamilton's 5th place in 08 was hardly super aggresive.

Don't see what Alonso could have done differntly in 2010 decider, or 07 for that matter, the ferraris dominated that weekend, mclaren was nowhere.

I thought his 2012 Brazil effort was decent, mark him down for qualy sure, but i can't see what was wrong with the race. diving down the inside of 2 cars at turn 1 on a damp track is hardly choking is it.



This is true, seen by Mika in 1999 and Michael Schumacher in 1998 at Japan. Mika also had his moments in 2000 as did Schumacher.

#77 BackOnTop

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:43

Very very good last two posts mate. I myself(Ferrari fan first/ALO 2nd) have been trying to sort the end of the season difference and your explanations make perfect sense to me.

I think it's obvious Fernando can adapt to the "bad car" quicker than Felipe. I think, as you mentioned, part of the Quali difference was down to one driver in serious contention for the WDC(being cautious) while the other basically had nothing to lose(contract extended). Big difference. Of course Alonso haters will claim Felipe was better regardless, and in a sense he was, but it doesn't tell the whole story, in much the same way Mark out-Quali'd Seb in the last 2-3 GP's.

I completely agree that Felipe isn't to be underestimated. Yes he's had a bad run more or less since his accident but IMHO, he's a very capable driver and has proven as much the last few GP's. Which brings into question next year. As mentioned the new 2013 tyres will play a huge role in performance, much like this year. Hembrey has already stated the 2013 tyre will completely change the Aerodynamic impact on the cars. But with Felipe's newfound confidence alongside his new/er setup breakthrough, he could very well give Fernando a run for his money. He out-Quali'd Fernando a few times on merit in 2010 as well. So we know he can do it.

No I don't think he's overall a better driver than Fer, but I do think on any given weekend he can beat him. Of course it bodes well for Ferrari(:up) that Felipe has regained some form and maybe, just maybe if Felipe can carry this momentum through the winter into next season, Ferrari can have a proper go at the WCC. Forza Ferrari :up:

If you are a Ferrari fan, then I think you would really appreciate it if Ferrari stops mucking around with Massa and provide him with necessary tools to his job.

I have a feeling Ferrari Technical department will be in favour of "Equal Machinary" & "Equal Focus" on both Alonso & Massa for complete 2013 season. It wouldn't be a bad idea for Ferrari themselves to do this and compare their respective performances & assess the diference, if any.

Also, I think Fernando Alonso has just lost the right to be Ferrari's No.1 Driver by demand. 0 championship in 3 years is sh!t result for Ferrari.

Even so, I have a feeling Massa has turned it around mentally and will not be playing lapdog anymore. His last year at Ferrari.... could be a fiery and rebellious. Can't wait for the season to start.

Why Ferrari team might focus on Massa as well:- because for 3 years under Alonso-Santander Policy, Ferrari team/staff have received a lot of pink envelopes & no championship bonus. Compare that to RBR employees and you'll get the picture of who are happier.

#78 LoudHoward

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:53

2006- MSC was winning the race, & most probably the championship until car trouble in Japan.
2007- Kimi Raikkonen needed to win the race, and he promptly delivers maximum performance. Wins WDC because Mclaren drivers are not steely enough.
2008- Felipe Massa needed to win the race, and he promptly delivers maximum performance. Loses WDC as Hamilton delivers what was needed by him.


2006) Didn't Massa effectively let Michael by in that race?
2007) Didn't Massa effectively let Kimi by in that race?
2008) Didn't Kimi effectively let Massa by in China?

Webber outqualified Vettel twice in the last 3 races and let him by in Brazil. Massa and Webber are basically number twos but they're quite good drivers, both who have had very serious tilts at championships, and when they are on it they're as unbeatable as any "tier 1" driver, it's just that doesn't happen as often as it does for their teammates. It's not that it never happens.

#79 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:59

2006) Didn't Massa effectively let Michael by in that race?
2007) Didn't Massa effectively let Kimi by in that race?
2008) Didn't Kimi effectively let Massa by in China?

Webber outqualified Vettel twice in the last 3 races and let him by in Brazil. Massa and Webber are basically number twos but they're quite good drivers, both who have had very serious tilts at championships, and when they are on it they're as unbeatable as any "tier 1" driver, it's just that doesn't happen as often as it does for their teammates. It's not that it never happens.


Haven't you learned anything after 5 years of debunked non-sense?

Kimi was on heavier fuel load, going faster than Massa to be able to jump him during the pit stops. All there is to it.

Now, would the situation have arisen that Massa had to slow down for Kimi to win the WDC at later part of the race, I am sure he would have done so. As it is, there never was a need for team orders/tactics.

EDIT: Had a double negative. Fixed.

Edited by Pothead4Philosopher, 30 November 2012 - 06:00.


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#80 LoudHoward

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:06

Well, I can't say I've really investigated it, but I always imagined that the Ferrari's were cruising around with low revs and saving their cars, Massa and Raikkonen effectively keeping in position together to allow for the arranged overlap in fuel to put Raikkonen ahead.

Happy to hear otherwise, but I never got the impression that Massa was pushing for the win or anything.

#81 BackOnTop

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:05

Well, I can't say I've really investigated it, but I always imagined that the Ferrari's were cruising around with low revs and saving their cars, Massa and Raikkonen effectively keeping in position together to allow for the arranged overlap in fuel to put Raikkonen ahead.

Happy to hear otherwise, but I never got the impression that Massa was pushing for the win or anything.

Kimi Raikkonen is a Ferrari World Champion.... Massa & Alonso are not.

So get over it that your opinion is so important that people want to reply to stupidity & trolling baits.

#82 CoolBreeze

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:46

There were whispers going about that Massa's car was being used as a testbed for next year and also for further development during the year. While many was calling for his head, Ferrari kept calm and signed him. And then while the race for the WDC tightened, Massa was let loose. I won't be surprise about the testing theory. I mean, i just can't explain how he went from being the slowest front runner to beating Alonso on a consistent basis. It can't be just form. ferrari knew something we didn't.

#83 Der Pate

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:10

There were whispers going about that Massa's car was being used as a testbed for next year and also for further development during the year. While many was calling for his head, Ferrari kept calm and signed him. And then while the race for the WDC tightened, Massa was let loose. I won't be surprise about the testing theory. I mean, i just can't explain how he went from being the slowest front runner to beating Alonso on a consistent basis. It can't be just form. ferrari knew something we didn't.


I don´t see a reason, why Ferrari should sacrifice Massa at such an early stage of the season...

#84 RealRacing

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:43

I completely agree that Felipe isn't to be underestimated. Yes he's had a bad run more or less since his accident but IMHO, he's a very capable driver and has proven as much the last few GP's. Which brings into question next year. As mentioned the new 2013 tyres will play a huge role in performance, much like this year. Hembrey has already stated the 2013 tyre will completely change the Aerodynamic impact on the cars. But with Felipe's newfound confidence alongside his new/er setup breakthrough, he could very well give Fernando a run for his money. He out-Quali'd Fernando a few times on merit in 2010 as well. So we know he can do it.

No I don't think he's overall a better driver than Fer, but I do think on any given weekend he can beat him. Of course it bodes well for Ferrari(:up) that Felipe has regained some form and maybe, just maybe if Felipe can carry this momentum through the winter into next season, Ferrari can have a proper go at the WCC. Forza Ferrari :up:


The problem for Felipe I think, is that he's much less consistent than FA. He might have been able to beat FA a couple of times in 2010 and, apparently, has also done that at the end of this season. Notwithstanding the points you have touched upon, that may explain to some extent FM's better form vis a vis FA in the last races, his relative inconsistency does not help him when he's faced with Ferrari's decision of which driver to support. As in the last years this decision has been made early for whatever reason, FM has been left without much of a chance (or motivation) to pick up his game in the last part of the season. As some others posters have said, if the momentum shifts a bit towards Massa after 2012 (if for no other reason, to see what can happen), it might be a good chance for him to redeem himself and give us fans a chance to see something of a real teammate battle at Ferrari for a change.


#85 LoudHoward

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:50

Kimi Raikkonen is a Ferrari World Champion.... Massa & Alonso are not.

So get over it that your opinion is so important that people want to reply to stupidity & trolling baits.


Excuse me? Do I know you from somewhere?

My ultimate point was that the top line teams have very good drivers, and it's not unique at all for the guy going for the championship to be matched or beaten (and then let through) by their teammate towards the end of a season. The fact that one example I gave was Kimi is nothing more than incidental, and I'm happy to discuss the validity of that example in the context of the point being discussed as I thought I made clear.

#86 itsademo

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:30

I don´t see a reason, why Ferrari should sacrifice Massa at such an early stage of the season...

Money
Ferrari are paid massive amounts for one driver to drive for them do you think that money would still pour in if the driver it is paying for is being beaten by his team mate??

#87 itsademo

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:38

many reasons possible but most likely only one person possibly knows what's changed or maybe a few in the team too.
Has the car evolved to a point it allows Massa to adopt a more natural style of driving that allows him to excel?
Has Massa finally got over what was an undeniable life threatening accident.
Was it a set of tracks he performs well at?
IMHO all of the above to different degrees.

One thing i do think is Massa showed in his last race why he deserves to be at Ferrari.
he has sold his racing soul to keep driving an F1 car
but dont let that fool you he is bloody good at driving them cars i cant forget the way he hung webber out to dry and allow Alonso through for an easy 2 place pass and all manufactured by a great bit of thinking and driving by Massa.
Just a shame he is so willing to be a lap dog

#88 BackOnTop

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:09

Excuse me? Do I know you from somewhere?

My ultimate point was that the top line teams have very good drivers, and it's not unique at all for the guy going for the championship to be matched or beaten (and then let through) by their teammate towards the end of a season. The fact that one example I gave was Kimi is nothing more than incidental, and I'm happy to discuss the validity of that example in the context of the point being discussed as I thought I made clear.

Not when 100% of Alonso Fanatics screamed for 3 years- "Look, how great Alonso is as a driver!! Massa is still the same fast driver, but our man can thrash him because Msc & Kimi are not at the same level as Alonslow".

Unlike Alonso's completely wrong Samurai philosophy... Raikkonen actually respects the fact that his opponent/teammates have capabilities too. Coulthard, JPM, Massa beat Kimi on & off.... without him falling to the ground and crying.

Monza, Korea, Austin & Brazil is a good list to have done well in races. I hope Massa has recovered his ground & will get the tools to do his job in 2013. I think Ferrari will oblige to Massa's feedback in 2013, which will be a good thing for the season.

Edited by BackOnTop, 01 December 2012 - 07:08.


#89 Leyser

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:46

1) The egregious trolling on such an interesting topic is beyond ridiculous.

2) I don't think it's about Alonso or about the last two races. Massa has been on the ball for the past half a dozen races. At his best he is fast enough to be within a few of tenths of anyone on the grid today and for whatever reason he has rediscovered his old self. It has to be mostly mental because he was underperforming by any imaginable standard for years. To go from pitiful performance to driving ~ at the pace of Alonso - a driver not known for declines in form - is a huge step.

#90 BackOnTop

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:17

1) The egregious trolling on such an interesting topic is beyond ridiculous.

2) I don't think it's about Alonso or about the last two races. Massa has been on the ball for the past half a dozen races. At his best he is fast enough to be within a few of tenths of anyone on the grid today and for whatever reason he has rediscovered his old self. It has to be mostly mental because he was underperforming by any imaginable standard for years. To go from pitiful performance to driving ~ at the pace of Alonso - a driver not known for declines in form - is a huge step.

It is definitely not about Alonso, but a bit more towards Ferrari-Massa relationship which got to breaking point in the middle of 2010 season.

Any Multiple Race-Winning Driver asked to make that choice to become subservient was a big shock to Massa while leading a race, & he did let his feelings known at that time post race. 2008 he was winning the Championship, 2009 he couldn't finish the season & 2010 he got asked to move out of the way of a relatively 'newcomer' in the team.

Massa & Formula 1, for sure, was expecting better judgement from Ferrari in Germany until Alonso's polite radio requests on his 'Accident Anniversary'. Performance & Team treatment is 'Interlinked'.

There was a huge performance gains in Spa & Monza, coinciding with suggestions around that Ferrari has given Massa an Ultimatum to perform. With Rob Smedely & Massa's father around that time, then surely must have asked Ferrari & Pat Fry to provide 'more attention' to Massa for him to prove his worth.

And since then, Massa has considerably managed to rank down Alosno's season & put a few questions about just good that Ferrari car was. It's a good start to perform on level terms.

Edited by BackOnTop, 01 December 2012 - 08:26.


#91 as65p

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:33

Not when 100% of Alonso Fanatics screamed for 3 years- "Look, how great Alonso is as a driver!! Massa is still the same fast driver, but our man can thrash him because Msc & Kimi are not at the same level as Alonslow".


Wow, such pain. :p

Unlike Alonso's completely wrong Samurai philosophy... Raikkonen actually respects the fact that his opponent/teammates have capabilities too. Coulthard, JPM, Massa beat Kimi on & off.... without him falling to the ground and crying.


You forgot Grosjean. And yeah, KR doesn't seem to care. If it get's too much, there's always rallying...




#92 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:19

They've taken the pressure off Felipe, thrown a bit more weight behind him anx renewed his contract and confidence.

This is the end result.

#93 BackOnTop

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:28

Wow, such pain. :p



You forgot Grosjean. And yeah, KR doesn't seem to care. If it get's too much, there's always rallying...

Pain at what, or why?? :confused:
Please take a re-look at the results.

Edited by BackOnTop, 01 December 2012 - 09:32.


#94 garoidb

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:37

Any Multiple Race-Winning Driver asked to make that choice to become subservient was a big shock to Massa while leading a race, & he did let his feelings known at that time post race. 2008 he was winning the Championship, 2009 he couldn't finish the season & 2010 he got asked to move out of the way of a relatively 'newcomer' in the team.


I can understand Felipe being extremely unhappy at having to concede first place to Alonso, but if he let it affect his performance to that extent then he should have been sacked long ago. F1 drivers need to have mental strength, and their teams are not there to mollcoddle them. I believe Felipe has much more steel than you are giving him credit for.

#95 BackOnTop

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:23

I can understand Felipe being extremely unhappy at having to concede first place to Alonso, but if he let it affect his performance to that extent then he should have been sacked long ago. F1 drivers need to have mental strength, and their teams are not there to mollcoddle them. I believe Felipe has much more steel than you are giving him credit for.

I think he has given himself the best situation in the last 2 races & a good chance of continuing it next season.

#96 olliek88

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:45

I think Massa struggled with the car early doors and it seems to me he takes longer than Alonso to adapt to a new car/tyres, generally speaking. Since Monza Massa has done a very good job IMO, the last couple he's been the best driver in red overalls but i don't for one second blame Ferrari for holding him back for the benefit of the team, Massa had all year to beat Alonso but it was too little too late.

I hope he can get on top of the car earlier next year.

#97 sailor

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:48

Open wheel driving is all about confidence...

.. The confidence which Massa lost in the accident and then 2010 with team allowing Alonso to get away with pit overtakes and Massa understanding "alonso being faster " on the radio.

Now the confidence is coming back and he will regularly beat Alonso in quali because he is inherently the faster qualifier. Massa proved it against Kimi and he is doing the same to Alonso in quali, the difference is that Alonso is the wiser one and will score more points by getting more out in races through all means available to him, some of which may be underhand.

#98 Fontainebleau

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:52

1) The egregious trolling on such an interesting topic is beyond ridiculous.

+1


#99 boldhakka

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 15:28

I suspect he just likes the harder types that Pirelli bestowed upon the drivers in their infinite wisdom during the last few races. Lewis too looked much happier in the second half, because he could push. Big, big difference in tyres between the first half and the last few races. Occam's razor and that sort of thing.

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#100 Skinnyguy

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 15:37

(Massa) At his best he is fast enough to be within a few of tenths of anyone on the grid today and for whatever reason he has rediscovered his old self.


/thread.

Will get interesting if he can make it again over a full season as he used to.