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How did Massa match Alonso in the last 2 deciding races?


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Poll: How did Massa keep up with Alonso? (225 member(s) have cast votes)

How did Massa keep up with Alonso?

  1. Setup choice / technical reasons (62 votes [27.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.56%

  2. Psychological reasons (Massa free to drive aggressively, Alonso driving more careful) (110 votes [48.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.89%

  3. Track preferrences (Massa suits those tracks better) (17 votes [7.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.56%

  4. Other... Please explain (36 votes [16.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.00%

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#101 ed24f1

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 16:10

I suspect he just likes the harder types that Pirelli bestowed upon the drivers in their infinite wisdom during the last few races. Lewis too looked much happier in the second half, because he could push. Big, big difference in tyres between the first half and the last few races. Occam's razor and that sort of thing.


Massa was extremely fast in Korea (and pretty good in Singapore) and that was with the super soft and softs, so I don't think that hard vs. soft tyres is relevant in this case.

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#102 boldhakka

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:31

Massa was extremely fast in Korea (and pretty good in Singapore) and that was with the super soft and softs, so I don't think that hard vs. soft tyres is relevant in this case.


You're right. I hope some journalist asks him what changed.

#103 Mc_Silver

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:49

Alonso was slower than Massa because Massa drove better than him simple as that

#104 toroRosso

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:40

I think FERRARI DOESN'T GIVE MASSA THE EQUAL TREATMENT UNTIL THEY HAVE TO. How this works? Well Massa suggests something for the engineers, they run it through Alonsos plans and obviously discard it. Also when Massa is seemingly fast during a practice, the corrupt Montezemolo orders their engineer not support Massa's preferred setup completely. Massa doesn't have a clue because he is brainwashed and in love with the red car.

Suddendly Ferrari realizes that they are in a situtation that they have to support Massa and we see the results.

How hard was it for Raikkonen until Massas accident -09? It's the same case there. And how they explain it to themselves is what we hear so often, Ferrari is about the team. It's a false logic. If what I suspect is true then Ferrari is not about the team, it's about one or the other all the way.

#105 mtknot

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 14:10

I think Alonso's starting to feel pressured by the fact that Massa has been giving him concessions for so long; its like as if he needs a team to help him in every way possible in order to thrive; something which he denies lately. However the latter half the season really suggests otherwise when Massa could have had quite a few podium positions this season, only to be stuck behind Alonso and miss out altogether.

Massa's likely back to his old self; he drives with the confidence/racecraft that he used to have in 08; no more of that really timid/markwebberish (I'm a webber fan btw), overtaking that he's been doing for the past 2 seasons. Expect next season at Ferrari to be a nightmare for alonso; akin to Mclaren 2007.

#106 prty

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 14:13

I think FERRARI DOESN'T GIVE MASSA THE EQUAL TREATMENT UNTIL THEY HAVE TO. How this works? Well Massa suggests something for the engineers, they run it through Alonsos plans and obviously discard it. Also when Massa is seemingly fast during a practice, the corrupt Montezemolo orders their engineer not support Massa's preferred setup completely. Massa doesn't have a clue because he is brainwashed and in love with the red car.

Suddendly Ferrari realizes that they are in a situtation that they have to support Massa and we see the results.

How hard was it for Raikkonen until Massas accident -09? It's the same case there. And how they explain it to themselves is what we hear so often, Ferrari is about the team. It's a false logic. If what I suspect is true then Ferrari is not about the team, it's about one or the other all the way.


So Ferrari realized only in the last races that it would be advisable that Massa takes points from the rivals? :lol: Kimi widows...


#107 garoidb

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 14:20

I think Alonso's starting to feel pressured by the fact that Massa has been giving him concessions for so long; its like as if he needs a team to help him in every way possible in order to thrive; something which he denies lately. However the latter half the season really suggests otherwise when Massa could have had quite a few podium positions this season, only to be stuck behind Alonso and miss out altogether.

Massa's likely back to his old self; he drives with the confidence/racecraft that he used to have in 08; no more of that really timid/markwebberish (I'm a webber fan btw), overtaking that he's been doing for the past 2 seasons. Expect next season at Ferrari to be a nightmare for alonso; akin to Mclaren 2007.


Massa being fast on a consistent basis next year would not be a nightmare for Alonso. He is well enough established at Ferrari and in F1. The real problem would be if Massa is intermittently fast, capable of winning races but not truly able to challenge for the WDC, AND then decides that beating Alonso at all costs is his only goal. If he races all competitors with equal aggression then I don't see how there is any problem for Alonso.

#108 Skinnyguy

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 15:40

Massa being fast on a consistent basis next year would not be a nightmare for Alonso. He is well enough established at Ferrari and in F1. The real problem would be if Massa is intermittently fast, capable of winning races but not truly able to challenge for the WDC, AND then decides that beating Alonso at all costs is his only goal. If he races all competitors with equal aggression then I don't see how there is any problem for Alonso.


Massa being consistently fast is a problem for anyone interested in winning a WDC. I´m sure Alonso has his sights on that.

#109 garoidb

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 17:03

Massa being consistently fast is a problem for anyone interested in winning a WDC. I´m sure Alonso has his sights on that.


Anybody else in a competitive car being consistently fast is a problem for the other contenders. Beyond that, I wouldn't expect Alonso to implode just because Massa beats him a few times (which I do expect and hope to see happen). After all, the expectation going to Ferrari was that it would be nip and tuck between Massa and Alonso.

#110 Skinnyguy

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 17:09

Anybody else in a competitive car being consistently fast is a problem for the other contenders.


Which is exactly my point.

Beyond that, I wouldn't expect Alonso to implode just because Massa beats him a few times (which I do expect and hope to see happen). After all, the expectation going to Ferrari was that it would be nip and tuck between Massa and Alonso.


If Massa meets that expectations, which might happen if he´s really back to his older self, he´s a rival to be watched instead of a helping hand that will do whatever for you. A weak Massa is better for Alonso than a strong Massa, regardless of Alonso´s performance, which I don´t think will change depending on Massa´s. No reason to think that.

#111 kosmos

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 17:15

Expect next season at Ferrari to be a nightmare for alonso; akin to Mclaren 2007.



I beat you dream with that every night :rotfl:

#112 garoidb

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 17:19

Which is exactly my point.


Then we are in agreement.

If Massa meets that expectations, which might happen if he´s really back to his older self, he´s a rival to be watched instead of a helping hand that will do whatever for you. A weak Massa is better for Alonso than a strong Massa, regardless of Alonso´s performance, which I don´t think will change depending on Massa´s. No reason to think that.


Massa's role in the latter races of 2012 was helpful to Alonso, but taking points off Vettel in the first half of the season would have been just as helpful (give or take, nobody can be certain).

For Massa's future, a strong 2013 is essential. I wonder if he really does have a chance to stay at Ferrari even longer? We can't know the answer, as I doubt there are contracts in place one way or the other, but the senior people at Ferrari must have a view, positive or negative.

Maybe Felipe needs to impress enough to secure a place at another team.

#113 Skinnyguy

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 17:32

Massa's role in the latter races of 2012 was helpful to Alonso, but taking points off Vettel in the first half of the season would have been just as helpful (give or take, nobody can be certain).



But then again if he took points off Vettel early on, he wouldn´t be helping later, as he´d be in contention ;)

Summarizing, a strong Felipe over a year is no good thing for any of the other top guys, same car or different. A poor Felipe with good flashes is more helpful to Alonso´s title bid. And that´s not Ferrari exclusive: a overall poor Perez with good flashes of performance will help Button, and so on. Maybe except if you have Webber alongside, who doesn´t seem to like playing the support role even if he´s out. :lol:

For Massa's future, a strong 2013 is essential. I wonder if he really does have a chance to stay at Ferrari even longer? We can't know the answer, as I doubt there are contracts in place one way or the other, but the senior people at Ferrari must have a view, positive or negative.


There´s no reason to think that he´ll be kicked if he has a good season next time. Why kicking a guy in good shape? Past won´t count anymore if he strarts performing. Also he was retained after 3 poor ones, so... I think he has his future in his own hands. Let´s see if he can deliver over a full year again.


#114 garoidb

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 17:51

But then again if he took points off Vettel early on, he wouldn´t be helping later, as he´d be in contention ;)


Yes, I got that but I don't think you can say it would have been worse for Fernando.

Summarizing, a strong Felipe over a year is no good thing for any of the other top guys, same car or different. A poor Felipe with good flashes is more helpful to Alonso´s title bid. And that´s not Ferrari exclusive: a overall poor Perez with good flashes of performance will help Button, and so on. Maybe except if you have Webber alongside, who doesn´t seem to like playing the support role even if he´s out. :lol:


I don't know. Ferrari would want Felipe to be able to finish ahead of Vettel, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Button, Webber as much as possible. He will be allowed to race Alonso at the beginning of the year (as has happened in previous years). By the last third of the season, it is unlikely that both Ferrari drivers would still be in true contention and you can deal with that situation as it arises. Frankly, that would be a very positive situation so it is not something to worry about. If, on the other hand, the car is poor, Felipe may have another difficult season.

Edit: If neither of them are in contention, then it doesn't matter that much either.

Webber didn't play support because he didn't have to, but you can be sure he would have dropped back if Vettel needed one more position in Brazil.

There´s no reason to think that he´ll be kicked if he has a good season next time. Why kicking a guy in good shape? Past won´t count anymore if he strarts performing. Also he was retained after 3 poor ones, so... I think he has his future in his own hands. Let´s see if he can deliver over a full year again.


Unless it is a Damon Hill at Williams situation where Ferrari have other plans in train already. I have a feeling Hulkenburg could be in their sights.

Edited by garoidb, 15 December 2012 - 17:55.


#115 Skinnyguy

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 18:05

Yes, I got that but I don't think you can say it would have been worse for Fernando.


Sure you can think of some places where Alonso would have scored less if Massa had done his job early on. And look at how tight it all ended mate! A performing teammate who can race you is not a useful thing to have while trying to get a WDC (from a driver POV, for a team it´s better to have two chances just in case one fails).

I don't know. Ferrari would want Felipe to be able to finish ahead of Vettel, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Button, Webber as much as possible. He will be allowed to race Alonso at the beginning of the year (as has happened in previous years). By the last third of the season, it is unlikely that both Ferrari drivers would still be in true contention and you can deal with that situation as it arises. Frankly, that would be a very positive situation so it is not something to worry about. If, on the other hand, the car is poor, Felipe may have another difficult season.


As I said before, I think from a Ferrari team POV of course it´s better Massa performs. From an Alonso POV, it will be worse.

Webber didn't play support because he didn't have to, but you can be sure he would have dropped back if Vettel needed one more position in Brazil.


Of course he´d have dropped, no doubt. But he missed plenty of other chances to play it before. Fighting back the initial Korea pass on the second straight, squeezing Vettel starting Brazil race, not yielding by himself ASAP in Abu Dhabi and waiting instead for the team to have to pit him a lap later... he wasn´t exactly on helping mood. Not an opinion based on a couple of isolated incidents, you could read it from the man himself.

Unless it is a Damon Hill at Williams situation where Ferrari have other plans in train already. I have a feeling Hulkenburg could be in their sights.


True. I didn´t think about this scenario.

#116 garoidb

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 18:14

Sure you can think of some places where Alonso would have scored less if Massa had done his job early on. And look at how tight it all ended mate! A performing teammate who can race you is not a useful thing to have while trying to get a WDC (from a driver POV, for a team it´s better to have two chances just in case one fails).


Just on this, it could be argued that having two drivers from the same team in contention in Abu Dhabi 2010 helped Vettel, as Alonso/Ferrari could not cover both of them. We could think of all sorts of scenarios, but it is not black and white.

#117 BetaVersion

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 18:43

[b]Interlagos Qualifying:

1:12.987 Massa
1:13.253 Alonso ( + 0.266 )

During the race Massa slowing down and letting Alonso by intentionally.

This is not true.

Alonso was faster most of the race. SC and luck put Massa ahead of Alonso again.

#118 Skinnyguy

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 18:59

Just on this, it could be argued that having two drivers from the same team in contention in Abu Dhabi 2010 helped Vettel, as Alonso/Ferrari could not cover both of them. We could think of all sorts of scenarios, but it is not black and white.


Being raced by/having to race Webber "costed" Vettel way more points over the season than the ammount of points Alonso lost in that race.

But you make a good point: it´s true you never know how it will turn out.

For me, over a year, for a team´s options to win a WDC it´s better to have both in contention. For a driver, it´s better to have a slow teammate. One less rival! No problem to disagree in this. :)

#119 garoidb

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 19:41

Being raced by/having to race Webber "costed" Vettel way more points over the season than the ammount of points Alonso lost in that race.

But you make a good point: it´s true you never know how it will turn out.

For me, over a year, for a team´s options to win a WDC it´s better to have both in contention. For a driver, it´s better to have a slow teammate. One less rival! No problem to disagree in this. :)


Yes, I am happy to mildly disagree too. I think we will have a better view next season because it does look like Felipe will be strong again. :)

Edited by garoidb, 15 December 2012 - 19:41.


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#120 fabr68

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 20:26

I think Alonso's starting to feel pressured by the fact that Massa has been giving him concessions for so long; its like as if he needs a team to help him in every way possible in order to thrive; something which he denies lately. However the latter half the season really suggests otherwise when Massa could have had quite a few podium positions this season, only to be stuck behind Alonso and miss out altogether.

Massa's likely back to his old self; he drives with the confidence/racecraft that he used to have in 08; no more of that really timid/markwebberish (I'm a webber fan btw), overtaking that he's been doing for the past 2 seasons. Expect next season at Ferrari to be a nightmare for alonso; akin to Mclaren 2007.


Massa and Alonso started the 2012 season on identical cars. Alonso won in the second race, Massa did not score a point until the fourth race. There are many daydreamers here that somehow fantacize on Massa whooping Alonso the same way he whooped Raikkonen. That is very unlikely to happen given the last three season performances.

With that said, Massa is not a bad driver like anyone pretends on the times he is beaten by Alonso. Massa is a good driver and with a competitive car he is capable to fight at the top as he proved in 2006, 2007 and 2008. Obviously, to expect him to lose all races against Alonso is quite ridiculous. He is going to beat Alonso once in a while.

The usual widows play Massa's performance at convenience. When he struggles, he is garbage and must be replaced with somebody that would make Alonso's life imposible. When he excells, he will humiliate Alonso over the season and get him fired off Ferrari. Yeah. Keep on dreaming. :cat:

#121 bourbon

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 21:13

Cars from the same stable are not identical. I think that is the fundamental basis upon which a lot of judging takes place, but to me it is flawed. Massa and Alonso can qualify and race well if in combination with their cars they have a strong package. However, you then have strategy calls, reliability, championship considerations and all kinds of factors that play into the actual results. So I don't think the final analysis is as straight forward as some would appear to suggest.

Edited by bourbon, 15 December 2012 - 21:14.


#122 toroRosso

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:08

The results speak for people being very divided on this, which means some will buy whatever Ferrari spills out and others won't. I find the latter be more rational and worthy of talking to. Maybe Ferrari did get more honest if their fans would actually call for it. Doesn't seem like it. So let em be the target for bashing and hating forever and rightfully so.

I don't believe that Massa suddendly saw a shrink and started to perform. There's something major behind it and it extends to a place none will be happy about.

Edited by toroRosso, 16 December 2012 - 05:09.


#123 zottzell

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:57

I would say that its a combination of Massa having absolutely nothing to loose after securing the ride for the next year even though he showed really lackluster performance for most of the season and Alonso having just about everything to loose. The difference in the amount of pressure on the two drivers for the last couple of races must have been huge, so that would be a psychological reason I recon.

But I also think that Ferrari and Alonso at the end took the wrong choice in always trying to use the newest bits even though they sometimes didn't work as well as the older stuff did. And that would be technical I guess.

#124 InfectedPumpkin

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:31

How Massa was better than Alonso in the last races?

Just like how Alonso was better until then. By driving faster.


Which driver will win first race of the 2013?

Driver who will cross the finish line first.


:drunk:




#125 garoidb

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:28

The results speak for people being very divided on this, which means some will buy whatever Ferrari spills out and others won't. I find the latter be more rational and worthy of talking to.


That is a false distinction. People can legitimately have different views based on all the information available. The fact that you don't even see, or care, why others hold their views makes you less worthy of talking to.


#126 seahawk

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 12:53

I personally believe Massa was in his preferred position. He had no pressure at all. Contract for 2013 signed, way out of the WDC fight and only a slim chance to reach the WCC or even the second place in the WCC for Ferrari. I think nobody even expected him to be close to Alonso or play a role in the fight for the WDC by supporting Alonso. Without any pressure he found his speed again. That happened in the past with MSC and Kimi as team mates. Massa drove well, when nobody expected him to.

I just hope he can keep up this level of performance, because next year people will expect him to deliver. Usually he does not.

Edited by seahawk, 16 December 2012 - 16:29.


#127 garoidb

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 14:24

I personally believe Massa was in his preferred position. He had no pressure at all. Contract for 2013 signed, way out of the WDC fight and only a slim chance to reach the WDC or even the second place in the WDC for Ferrari. I think nobody even expected him to close to Alonso or play a role in the fight for the WDC by supporting Alonso. Without any pressure he found his speed again. That happened in the past with MSC and Kimi as team mates. Massa drove well, when nobody expected him to.

I just hope he can keep up this level of performance, because next year people will expect him to deliver. Usually he does not.


I think that all helped. His comments that concern over his long term future at Ferrari was a factor is worrying, because his Ferrari future will never be completely, or even substantially, secure again. I doubt he will be on more than single year contracts from here on. Very few drivers have security at any team.

#128 Ragingjamaican

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:21

I personally believe Massa was in his preferred position. He had no pressure at all. Contract for 2013 signed, way out of the WDC fight and only a slim chance to reach the WCC or even the second place in the WCC for Ferrari. I think nobody even expected him to be close to Alonso or play a role in the fight for the WDC by supporting Alonso. Without any pressure he found his speed again. That happened in the past with MSC and Kimi as team mates. Massa drove well, when nobody expected him to.

I just hope he can keep up this level of performance, because next year people will expect him to deliver. Usually he does not.


Looking at one of his best seasons to date, which was 2008, he was under immense pressure after the first two races where he didn't score at all and spun the car twice.

Bounced back from that pressure, and it's not as if he fizzled away in 2009 either where you would expect him to maintain his form.

Whatever got him close to his best no one really knows, but it was good to see him back, and hopefully he'll be quick from the get-go in the up and coming season. Doubt he will though.

#129 toniovodka

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:23

I think its mostly setup, if you look at the first part of the season Massa is always fighting the car in the corners, the last races it looked like something he could drive, and it is not just Massa, other drivers had a difficult time adapting their driving and car to the fixed weight distribution, Schumacher, Button and B. Senna are other examples

#130 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 22:40

It's not just the last two races.

Massa was on par with him since the summer break.

It's very simple, Massa is not such a hopeless driver as some think, and is quite competent when the car is to his liking. :drunk:

He did outpace the great Schumi a couple of times, way back in the day after all. :)

#131 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 22:43

Cars from the same stable are not identical.

Precisemundo, I would recall ruddy the crew of "Fingerboy" pinching "Potsie"s front wing sneakily before qualifying. :p

:rotfl:

#132 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 22:52

I can understand Felipe being extremely unhappy at having to concede first place to Alonso, but if he let it affect his performance to that extent then he should have been sacked long ago. F1 drivers need to have mental strength, and their teams are not there to mollcoddle them. I believe Felipe has much more steel than you are giving him credit for.

Massa has been a long, long time Ferrari formula one driver. That is more than most can say! It is not such a bad place.
Even stars like Prost were fired by the Scuderia long before reaching such a point.

Just a shame the prancing horse still gets beat up by lowly British garagiste teams (a very big garage mind you) even in the 2010s ! To think the wins they could have had for themselves if could have been somehow thought up for themselves the elements of dominant superiority of Lotus, McLaren, Williams and Red Bull over 5 decades.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 20 December 2012 - 22:52.


#133 Fontainebleau

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 17:26

I am a bit surprised about the question asked in this thread. The amazing thing is not how Massa matched Alonso in the last two races, but how Alonso overshadowed Massa in the previous ones.

In case anyone has forgotten, Massa is a WDC contender and a top driver. A guy who could hold his candle against a Schumacher at his peak, and who beat Raikkonen two seasons in a row. I do highly rate both Schumacher and Raikkonen, so I was not surprised when he started 2010 proving to be level with all the top guns in F1.

That early season and the two last races show that, unlike some thought, Massa has not lost anything after his terribe 2009 accident. Yes, he has probably been underperforming for a while - and that was the weird thing, not that he has recovered himself and is again doing what he does: driving an F1 car at a very high level.

#134 yr

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 20:13

I am a bit surprised about the question asked in this thread. The amazing thing is not how Massa matched Alonso in the last two races, but how Alonso overshadowed Massa in the previous ones.


Exactly. There was somethingy fishy about Massas performance for sure. I mean, he was on the level with Alonso during the second half of season, but he was nowhere before that... :confused:
So I guess, it is safe to assume he is as fast/good as Fernando, but something held him back at the early stage of the year, strange, isnt it? I mean, if he was so inferior to FA, he would be that all the time, not just half the season.

It still puzzles me why has Massa been underperforming so much and showed his true abilities so little since Alonso joined Ferrari, cant be him lacking of talent, as he showed what he can do when he is up to the task in last races this season, beating Alonso in the process, must be some sort of team preference thingy...

Edited by yr, 21 December 2012 - 20:17.


#135 as65p

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 20:34

Exactly. There was somethingy fishy about Massas performance for sure. I mean, he was on the level with Alonso during the second half of season, but he was nowhere before that... :confused:
So I guess, it is safe to assume he is as fast/good as Fernando, but something held him back at the early stage of the year, strange, isnt it? I mean, if he was so inferior to FA, he would be that all the time, not just half the season.

It still puzzles me why has Massa been underperforming so much and showed his true abilities so little since Alonso joined Ferrari, cant be him lacking of talent, as he showed what he can do when he is up to the task in last races this season, beating Alonso in the process, must be some sort of team preference thingy...


Everyone knows Ferrari switches drivers on/off by screwing with their cars suspension settings. It's an open secret here on the board, surprised how you could still be :confused: about it....

:D

#136 yr

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 20:52

Everyone knows Ferrari switches drivers on/off by screwing with their cars suspension settings. It's an open secret here on the board, surprised how you could still be :confused: about it....

:D


:lol: I wish there was such an easy answer for Massas performance going from one of the worst on grid to one of the best, but no, no cigar for you this time. :wave:

#137 Fontainebleau

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 22:44

Exactly. There was somethingy fishy about Massas performance for sure. I mean, he was on the level with Alonso during the second half of season, but he was nowhere before that... :confused:
So I guess, it is safe to assume he is as fast/good as Fernando, but something held him back at the early stage of the year, strange, isnt it? I mean, if he was so inferior to FA, he would be that all the time, not just half the season.

It still puzzles me why has Massa been underperforming so much and showed his true abilities so little since Alonso joined Ferrari, cant be him lacking of talent, as he showed what he can do when he is up to the task in last races this season, beating Alonso in the process, must be some sort of team preference thingy...

No, I don't think that it was any weird team preference thingy- and it is about time that people stop talking nonsense and blaming evil Alonso and his slaves at Ferrari for everything under the sun. As if Massa was of any help to Alonso when he was way behind not just him, but also all the other WDC competitors!

I don't know why Massa has been underperforming so much. I think that bad luck has been involved in more than one occasion (for example, Singapore). But I am happy that, whatever the reason, he has apparently put it behind him. Here is hoping he keeps on with the good work and doing fine in 2013!

#138 as65p

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 23:26

No, I don't think that it was any weird team preference thingy- and it is about time that people stop talking nonsense and blaming evil Alonso and his slaves at Ferrari for everything under the sun.


The funny thing is, I remember a time when pretty much the same people claimed preferential treatment for Massa, and negative effects for Massas (then) teammate. :)

#139 TheNewStig

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 13:36

Most track preferrences.

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#140 prty

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 15:31

Exactly. There was somethingy fishy about Massas performance for sure. I mean, he was on the level with Alonso during the second half of season, but he was nowhere before that... :confused:
So I guess, it is safe to assume he is as fast/good as Fernando, but something held him back at the early stage of the year, strange, isnt it? I mean, if he was so inferior to FA, he would be that all the time, not just half the season.

It still puzzles me why has Massa been underperforming so much and showed his true abilities so little since Alonso joined Ferrari, cant be him lacking of talent, as he showed what he can do when he is up to the task in last races this season, beating Alonso in the process, must be some sort of team preference thingy...

It was the dark force of evil Santander, which also is the reason of why Raikkonen lost to Massa., without him being able to do anything. So sad :cry:

#141 tkulla

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 15:40

I think Massa must have had the same problem with tyres that bothered other drivers (Button, Senna) - not being able to set up the car to generate enough heat to get the tyres in their optimum performance window. This year's Pirelli's were very tricky to understand and if you were a driver who's natural style generated too little or too much heat in them you had to either compromise your style or set up to get them to work. And it would vary by conditions (weather, track surface, etc) so it was difficult to pin down. Seems like they figured it out though.

We all know that Massa can be very quick when he's feeling confident in himself and the car. Unfortunately, playing second fiddle to Fernando puts a bit of a damper on that confidence most of the time.

#142 BackOnTop

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 17:02

Alonso is in for a surprise in 2013.... The stop gap year where Luca must decide what he wants to do about Sebastian Vettel!!

The best way to find out and get his confusion cleared would be to give Massa's side of the garage to run their own programme, set-up & feedback which lacked big time as everyone was obsessing about Alonso at Ferrari.

Like I said earlier, Alonso chose the worst time to get out-qualified or/& out-performed or matched in the final 4 races of 2012. Rob Smedley is no fool, and has been with Ferrari with great success longer than Alonso has been.

What are the chances he'd have already visited Luca with Massa's telemetry as proof against Alonso and area of requirements for 2013? Very high i think.

Equal treatment might just be what the doctor ordered for 2013 after 3 years of getting their ass kicked by a drinks company driven by a kid.

Edited by BackOnTop, 22 December 2012 - 17:12.


#143 2ms

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 17:34

Alonso is in for a surprise in 2013.... The stop gap year where Luca must decide what he wants to do about Sebastian Vettel!!

The best way to find out and get his confusion cleared would be to give Massa's side of the garage to run their own programme, set-up & feedback which lacked big time as everyone was obsessing about Alonso at Ferrari.

Like I said earlier, Alonso chose the worst time to get out-qualified or/& out-performed or matched in the final 4 races of 2012. Rob Smedley is no fool, and has been with Ferrari with great success longer than Alonso has been.

What are the chances he'd have already visited Luca with Massa's telemetry as proof against Alonso and area of requirements for 2013? Very high i think.

Equal treatment might just be what the doctor ordered for 2013 after 3 years of getting their ass kicked by a drinks company driven by a kid.


The only way LdM will demote Alonso from 1st drivers is if they are losing Santander. As far as I know, there are no signs that that is about to happen.

#144 Skinnyguy

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 18:27

I think Massa must have had the same problem with tyres that bothered other drivers (Button, Senna) - not being able to set up the car to generate enough heat to get the tyres in their optimum performance window.


Don´t think so, he came alive when Pirelli got scared and started to pick brick tyres.

I just think Massa found whatever on the technical side and managed to get back to his old shape. And in that shape, he´s a threat for anyone.

Having said that, I still expect Alonso to come on top even if Massa can keep this shape, because nowadays F1 is about race day. Now outqualifying another guy is no guarantee, if he´s faster, he´ll most likely end in front of you. But in "old" F1, Massa in this shape would give Alonso a headache, he would be a match for him (for anyone actually).

#145 Big Block 8

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 18:56

Car was difficult at the beginning of the season - as Alonso is the #1 the team sorted out his problems first and left Massa with the leftovers. As the car got better, the team could give Massa some time as well and in turn sorted out his problems. Simple as that.

Come next season Massa is again a good few steps behind Alonso in the beginning. Not easy being the #2.

#146 motorhead

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 19:19

I think Massa´s confidence is the issue. Massa is fast, but fragile mentally. Isn´t it so that he needs a lot of radio in races, nurturing and acceptance? It is not helping that he has been a clear number 2 from where Alonso started.

Edited by motorhead, 22 December 2012 - 19:20.


#147 MoP

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 19:29

I think Massa´s confidence is the issue. Massa is fast, but fragile mentally. Isn´t it so that he needs a lot of radio in races, nurturing and acceptance? It is not helping that he has been a clear number 2 from where Alonso started.


i think thats alonsos thing...

Edited by MoP, 22 December 2012 - 19:29.


#148 discover23

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 20:59

Why did Kimi had some bad performances this year where his teammate was faster?
Why was button so poor in some races, same with Webber? Those drivers lack 100% consistency. That is all.
There will always be something not right with the car and their speed will be compromised ..
Alonso and Lewis are on a different league.

Edited by discover23, 22 December 2012 - 21:10.


#149 Skinnyguy

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 21:52

Alonso and Lewis are on a different league.


Yep, the league of the ones who lack confidence and need to say to the world and themselves all the time they are the bestest in the world.


#150 BackOnTop

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 02:49

Yep, the league of the ones who lack confidence and need to say to the world and themselves all the time they are the bestest in the world.

Lol... So true!!

A league so far below that twitter is their only friend. "Twitter twitter on the wall..."