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Rally 2013


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#551 BRG

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 19:48

Apparently PSA (Peugeot/Citroen) have posted a big loss, so don't be surprised to see them heading for the door.

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#552 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 00:23

If VW is a runaway winner this year, I suspect Citroen will pull out. The whole French auto industry is in deep shit at the moment. Once down to 1.5 manufacturers, I'm afraid FIA would still run WRC as is with VW having invested so much.

Just hope that Hyundai turn up trumps next year :well:

#553 tormave

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:00

I think you'll find that s2000 was classed as too slow and not spectacular enough as well as not road car relevant.....

Well, the VAG consortium already managed to more or less kill S2000 through investing so much into Fabia development that it started to make little sense to race anything else - the other makes weren't keen on starting a spending race with them. They've been rather successful in eliminating competition in Le Mans too. I think road car relevance is today rather pointless when we're talking about motor racing.

The car companies essentially want a marketing platform, but at the same time seem to forget that interest is best served with close competition rather than utter dominance. You can't repeat the Quattro case of introducing turbo-charging and 4wd to the general public through racing success, as most racing classes today don't allow for a lot of innovation. Besides, even the Quattro dominance was pretty boring when the novelty wore off and the competitors still raced 2wd cars.

I still think WRC would be best served if everybody just stopped with the development alltogether. The money spent by VW and Citroen is pointless from spectator point of view. Unlike spec series on track where minuscule differences in performance tend to lead to queues of cars that can't overtake, having relatively inexpensive but still fast cars in rallying would serve to enhance the spectacle through closer competition and driver skill. Some advantage could still be gained by the team through setting up the car and making it run reliably while rest would be down to the driver and co-driver. Car manufacturers could decide how their car looks, but mechanical performance would be equal across all. The same WRC platform could be used in national series and hell, some company might even sell road cars based on it.

#554 noikeee

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:44

The problem is that freezing development is almost up there with success ballast and artifficial equalizing of cars for unsporting, anti-competition regulations. At which point should development be frozen, and how p*ssed off are you going to be if you are behind your competitors at that point?

You also hint at a "spec car" sort of thing with this sentence: "Car manufacturers could decide how their car looks, but mechanical performance would be equal across all", I understand the logic and the benefits, and know that it's used on series like NASCAR, DTM etc but it still sounds really wrong to me. It's the partial death of sport on the teams' behalf.

#555 ArnageWRC

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:32

Ah, no please. That sounds like the dreaded Balance of Perfromance currently infesting GT racing. I can just about put up with equalisation in National series – but not for a World Championship – and that’s for all Motorsport!!
Have a set of regs, and stick to them. However, write the regs so that it makes taking part attractive – and most importantly reasonably affordable.
So many categories struggle to attract team/Manufacturers – yet cost is probably the biggest reason keeping more competitors away.


#556 tormave

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 08:48

The problem is that freezing development is almost up there with success ballast and artifficial equalizing of cars for unsporting, anti-competition regulations. At which point should development be frozen, and how p*ssed off are you going to be if you are behind your competitors at that point?

You also hint at a "spec car" sort of thing with this sentence: "Car manufacturers could decide how their car looks, but mechanical performance would be equal across all", I understand the logic and the benefits, and know that it's used on series like NASCAR, DTM etc but it still sounds really wrong to me. It's the partial death of sport on the teams' behalf.

When I talk of stopping development, I don't mean freezing development of current cars. They're way too expensive already. Rather than setting the technical regulations and allowing all manufacturers spend a lot of money in pursuit of speed within those regs, I would rather specify the parts bin everyone must use, like the standard ECU in Formula one. Whether you would have a single supplier or a couple for a given part is a matter of competitive economics - whatever makes more sense. The companies supplying parts would be regularly chosen by bidding competitions, like the spec tyres in F1, to keep the costs down.

If the WRC was specified like this, there would be hundreds of racing companies in the world, who would be able to build a competitive WRC machine - based on almost any base car, if the minimum weight was set high enough. If the parts were durable and cheap, importers could afford to make a car if the factory wasn't interested which is how rallying tended to happen in the 70s and 80s in the national series.

This way most of the money spent on a WRC programme would go to actually going racing rather than R&D and testing and companies like Proton and Hyundai could enter assured of being competitive without the need for exorbitant levels of money. With the clover leaf format and limited number of tyres allowed like today, also the cost of actually going racing would stay low unlike in the 80s and 90s with truckfuls of tyres and tens of mechanics brought in for a single car.

#557 DanardiF1

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 20:52

How many rally participants are there in the UK?


At the Wyedean Rally I attended last week, the entry list consisted of 152 cars. Only a smattering of old WRC cars, and mostly made up of Group N Subarus/Evos and Mark II Escorts.

#558 H2H

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 09:45

Top YT channel with nice interviews, in this case a neat look at the Mini contender:

Pole Position P1. Note that the 'most crucial item' on a WRC car has also been described as such in the blog 'WRC behind the stages' - which should not come to a surprise to most petrol heads.

Mads interview is great, they don't ask those kind of questions on the TV. Well done by all the guys involved. :up:

Love the interplay between the tyres with all their 'details' width!, profile especially stud count, design & length and the suspension as well as the diffs. Look how the cars behave now and twenty years ago....

P.S: It is also natural that those studded tyres are absolutely worthless on snow & ice without studs as the the rubber compound and the construction is optimized to allow the studs to do their work.

WRC behind the stages states that obvious which wasn't obvious at all if you didn't think about it:

A tip, never take tires like these...

Posted Image

...and rip the studs out because you have to...

...and expect the rubber to work on snow and ice...

... 'cause it doesn't...


...

Back in 2002 around October we travelled to Quebec with the Corolla WRC to participate in the Charlevoix Rally. We had been invited there, with attractive conditions set by the organiser. Our information was that stages were smooth and fast gravel. We had various conversations about what tires to take over there. Our main concern was that October is a tricky month in Quebec. Snow can fall. The regulations made one thing clear: Spikes are forbidden.

Ok.

We packed some gravel tires (mostly soft compound 7 and 8 Michelin) but the question remained concerning the snow. We did not know of a studless competition tire that we could use on gravel and snow. We decided to improvise. We talked to a friend who worked in the Michelin competition department. He supplied us with a bunch of "Swedish rally type tires" (similar as the ones in the top pic). We were going to have to rip the studs out one by one and try.

On came the rally and lo and behold: snow.



...

Having never driven on these studless tires, we decided to take the Corolla for a spin on some random forest road. A fresh and compact white cover welcomed us with open arms, but oh my...there was no way to drive on these tires. The verdict was that "Swedish rally" tires have extremely hard rubber compound made to hold the spike in place.

And?

Spikes HAVE to stay straight in order to work. When driving with heavy "attack" they get hot together with the rubber and start to move. Hard rubber is the only option to prevent that as much as possible. We learned the hard way that if the spike is gone you can forget it, the tire doesn't work, unlike "Monte Carlo rally" tires, for example.


Top blog!

Edited by H2H, 17 February 2013 - 09:57.


#559 DrProzac

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 10:13

P.S: It is also natural that those studded tyres are absolutely worthless on snow & ice without studs as the the rubber compound and the construction is optimized to allow the studs to do their work.

It's quite obvious when you think about it - the rubber must be hard and stiff to support the studs. Way to hard and stiff to work well without them :)

Thanks for the links.

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#560 H2H

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 12:31

It's quite obvious when you think about it - the rubber must be hard and stiff to support the studs. Way to hard and stiff to work well without them :)

Thanks for the links.


You are welcome. :)

I just find it amazing that I never thought about it. Sweden is one of my favorites rally, love the way how the cars rather softly twists and roll. Collins crest is sweet in slow-mo as you can see the 'rebound' of the dampers. It is also great to see how the brake and throttle control of the drivers before and during the jump influences the pitch angle of the car in the air.

Edited by H2H, 17 February 2013 - 12:33.


#561 DrProzac

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 15:31

The blog you've posted the link to is known to me - I also recommend reading it. There are other interesting articles there, like the one about active diffs for example :)

#562 kosmic33

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 15:52

Its a good read but he does come across as being quite naive at times, especially with regard to the spec of the cars.....

#563 D.M.N.

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 23:12

UK - ITV4 have secured highlights to round 3 in Mexico - Tuesday 12th March at 17:50.

#564 kosmic33

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 01:48

UK - ITV4 have secured highlights to round 3 in Mexico - Tuesday 12th March at 17:50.

Brilliant

As up to date as their F3 highlights........

#565 BRG

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 20:17

Brilliant

As up to date as their F3 highlights........

Well, it's better than a poke in the eye from the co-driver's pencil. It's only a couple of days after all, and better that than no coverage.

#566 DanardiF1

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 07:30

Good on ITV4, ITV seem to be the only freeview channel who gives a sh** about motorsport in the UK. If they can cover WRC as well as their BTCC coverage, I think there's a good home for the championship on ITV4.

#567 kosmic33

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 20:09

So much for M-Sports new s2400.
Engine failed on SS3 of its debut at the Malcom Wilson rally on Saturday....

#568 Group B

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 21:41

Good on ITV4, ITV seem to be the only freeview channel who gives a sh** about motorsport in the UK. If they can cover WRC as well as their BTCC coverage, I think there's a good home for the championship on ITV4.

Other free sports too; they had live snooker all last week and have weekly Bundesliga highlights. As you say, good on them.

#569 Yhamm

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 06:50

Robert Kubica will do 7 events of the WRC2 championship in a DS3 RRC for Citroen. FIA allowed him to have a paddleshift
he will start at Portugal and will also do some ERC events

Edited by Yhamm, 04 March 2013 - 06:52.


#570 MadYarpen

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 07:11

Robert Kubica will do 7 events of the WRC2 championship in a DS3 RRC for Citroen. FIA allowed him to have a paddleshift
he will start at Portugal and will also do some ERC events

Source?

#571 Yhamm

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 07:48

Source?

http://www.autohebdo...le...n-en-wrc2 
the way they say it, they are 100% sure of it

Edited by Yhamm, 04 March 2013 - 07:49.


#572 skywing

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:09

Robert Kubica will do 7 events of the WRC2 championship in a DS3 RRC for Citroen. FIA allowed him to have a paddleshift
he will start at Portugal and will also do some ERC events

Oh yes! WRC2 is very interesting for me then, Esapekka Lappi and Robert. :love:

Edited by skywing, 04 March 2013 - 08:09.


#573 artista

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:13

http://www.autohebdo...le...n-en-wrc2 
the way they say it, they are 100% sure of it

And when it comes to news related with Citroën, Autohebdo is usually quite reliable (I hope they don't make me look silly after writing this)

#574 Muppetmad

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:28

It's a battle of sources then: Autosport have reported Robert's going to do the ERC.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105759

Edited by Muppetmad, 04 March 2013 - 08:29.


#575 MadYarpen

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:35

and citroen said they are not 100% accurate, so point for auto hebdo.

#576 MadYarpen

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:37

http://www.citroen-w...itroen-ds3-rrc/

#577 Yhamm

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:40

It's a battle of sources then: Autosport have reported Robert's going to do the ERC.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105759

Well, both are correct, he will do ERC and WRC2 ^^

#578 kosmic33

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 13:35

Oh yes! WRC2 is very interesting for me then, Esapekka Lappi and Robert. :love:

Lappi will be a good benchmark for Kubica too - he's properly fast.

The fact that he's doing WRC2 would also point to him planning on trying to make a career out of rallying as its mainly based on gravel - a surface he's not really got much experience of.

#579 Fastcake

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 19:38

UK - ITV4 have secured highlights to round 3 in Mexico - Tuesday 12th March at 17:50.


That's good, it's been a while since I've really wanted to follow the WRC. If they show regular highlights it will certainly catch my interest again.

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#580 MadYarpen

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:27

i20
Posted Image

Posted Image

#581 kosmic33

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 12:58

i20
Posted Image

Looks good although there doesnt seem to be an engine in there!

#582 BRG

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 21:29

Looks good although there doesnt seem to be an engine in there!

X-ray eyes?

#583 kosmic33

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 22:13

X-ray eyes?

You can see the floor through the grille on the bumper!

#584 BRG

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 22:19

You can see the floor through the grille on the bumper!

Isn't that just a reflection?

#585 MadYarpen

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 22:29

I thought I see it too. But on the first photo it looks very weird, as if there was nothing under the mask...

#586 Deluxx

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 23:53

does anyone know if the WRC is going to offer streaming or does anyone know of a place *cough*RFM*cough* that I can get WRC this season?

Us here in the USA aren't going to be receiving coverage of the series anymore...

#587 kosmic33

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:12

does anyone know if the WRC is going to offer streaming or does anyone know of a place *cough*RFM*cough* that I can get WRC this season?

Us here in the USA aren't going to be receiving coverage of the series anymore...

The official daily highlights shows are uploaded onto YouTube the day they are broadcast by unofficial sources.
They aren't hard to find!

#588 tintin1975

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:00

Brilliant

As up to date as their F3 highlights........


ITV hasn't shown F3 since the mid eighties. What's your point?

#589 MadYarpen

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 18:42

hopefully qualy shows that mikko isn't joking this time.

does anybody know how itineary on wrc website converts to the time in central europe?

#590 artista

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 18:47

hopefully qualy shows that mikko isn't joking this time.

does anybody know how itineary on wrc website converts to the time in central europe?

Hehe, I already went through that a couple of days ago. Finally, I found the conversion in the clocks of iGoogle. It's 7 hours with CET. That would mean, SS1 starts at 3:09.

#591 MadYarpen

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 19:24

Thanks:)

#592 EightGear

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 21:06

See this page. All times are converted to French times.

http://planetemarcus...c/mexique-2013/

#593 kosmic33

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 21:28

ITV hasn't shown F3 since the mid eighties. What's your point?

Not very up to date then are they!

#594 kosmic33

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 21:29

hopefully qualy shows that mikko isn't joking this time.

I'd love to see him have a good run.

But I've a feeling it'll be an all VW race when the serious action starts tomorrow......

#595 Ravenak

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:04

Looks like nobody stands a chance against Ogier/VW.

#596 noikeee

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:24

Looks like nobody stands a chance against Ogier/VW.


That could very well happen, but that's a very rushed conclusion to reach after 2 short superspecials.

#597 MadYarpen

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:34

S. OGIER 3:19.5 0.0 0.0
M. OSTBERG 3:19.8 +0.3 +0.3
T. NEUVILLE 3:20.1 +0.3 +0.6
M. HIRVONEN 3:20.6 +0.5 +1.1
D. SORDO 3:20.9 +0.3 +1.4

Not exactly massive differences.

#598 Ravenak

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:07

It's not the differences or the timing of the conclusions that matter, it's the fact that you have a driver who's still in a kind of rookie state, with a new car, crushing well established teams and experienced drivers, on different surfaces.

But yes, you should wait a bit more...

#599 skywing

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:10

It's not the differences or the timing of the conclusions that matter, it's the fact that you have a driver who's still in a kind of rookie state, with a new car, crushing well established teams and experienced drivers, on different surfaces.

But yes, you should wait a bit more...

No way Ogier is in any rookie state, this is his 4th full season in a WRC car and he has loads of experience from all the rallies.

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#600 Ravenak

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:13

Whatever :p