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Rally 2013


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#1001 EightGear

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 13:28

Ogier went wide in a muddy corner and had to reverse out. He lost 40 seconds.

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#1002 noikeee

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 15:39

So let's say it stays this way until the final stage with the 2 Citroens with a healthy gap over Ogier (think he'll fight back though), does Loeb slow down for Hirvonen to win? :D

#1003 GustavoB

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 15:55

So let's say it stays this way until the final stage with the 2 Citroens with a healthy gap over Ogier (think he'll fight back though), does Loeb slow down for Hirvonen to win? :D


That makes a lot of sense because of the championship. But will Citroen have the balls to do that? :confused:





#1004 artista

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 18:46

At the moment, it seems Citroën won't have to worry about it any longer: Mikko is back behind Ogier

#1005 MadYarpen

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 20:33

I wonder if Mikko wins a rally this year...

#1006 EightGear

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 21:45

I wonder if Mikko wins a rally this year...


He will have to do it in Finland or else he won't.


#1007 skywing

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 21:47

I wonder if Mikko wins a rally this year...

Not with the luck he is having...

#1008 One

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 21:56

Loeb is incredible. He will be the champion if he were to run this year.

#1009 artista

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 16:48

Another Rally Argentina victory for Loeb, and the other two Citroëns quite behind in the classification. This is getting silly.

#1010 Vesuvius

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 16:57

Latvala was amazing from stages 11-14, pretty much dominated all of those, hopefully he will continue push like that now that he has the new settings that he wanted.

#1011 Yhamm

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 18:59

Another Rally Argentina victory for Loeb, and the other two Citroëns quite behind in the classification. This is getting silly.

Hirvonen was quite unlucky this time

#1012 One

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 23:27

Loeb is incredible, once more. I thought that Citroen had a inferior car this year. No way...

#1013 MadYarpen

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:24

I am very disappointed with Hirvonen and Sordo... Especially with Hirvonen.

#1014 santori

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:16

This article from a year and a half ago seems pretty believable: How do you solve a problem like Sebastien?


Much of his speed down a stage can be accredited to his incredibly detailed pacenote system. While other drivers' notes are designed to tell them how fast they can drive around a corner, Loeb's notes describe the profile of each bend in minute detail....

Ultimately, though, Loeb's success is a direct product of his driving style and confidence....

Every corner on a rally stage also has a set of optimum points, but it's infinitely more difficult to hit each of them every time [than in F1]because there are thousands of corners to learn during a rally, rather than just 15 or so. Loeb is best able to consistently work out where these points are, then nail them.

What inevitably follows is victory. That breeds huge confidence in his own abilities and methods, which means he's capable of resisting the temptation to become more aggressive in the heat of a battle. He instead channels his competitive spirit into driving perfectly, into better hitting the optimum points on every corner.

Loeb is unique in his ability to do this. When the other drivers in the service park want to go faster, they 'push harder'. They brake later, get on the power earlier, try to carry more speed around a corner. They start to miss turn in points or run wide onto loose gravel, shedding time. When they see that Loeb has still gone faster, they believe that the Frenchman must be pushing even harder than they are. Their only solution is to push harder still, which just sees them make even more mistakes.



#1015 artista

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:07

Hirvonen was quite unlucky this time

I was thinking a bit in a general way, not going into the possible mistakes or bad luck of the Citroën drivers. I meant that if the only Citroën that can/is able to win rallies is the one that is not doing the full season, that makes the championship very boring.

But since we are talking about Hirvonen: it's like he lost something, a little bit, maybe a tenth or two, after that mega crash in Finland a few years ago. Maybe it's a coincidence his problems started more or less at that time, but...

#1016 EightGear

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 13:49

I am very disappointed with Hirvonen and Sordo... Especially with Hirvonen.


Hirvonen was actually quite good this time. It's a shame he had a puncture and then electrical trouble on friday afternoon, otherwise he would not have been too far away from Loeb.

#1017 One

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 14:24

This article from a year and a half ago seems pretty believable: How do you solve a problem like Sebastien?


Much of his speed down a stage can be accredited to his incredibly detailed pacenote system. While other drivers' notes are designed to tell them how fast they can drive around a corner, Loeb's notes describe the profile of each bend in minute detail....

Ultimately, though, Loeb's success is a direct product of his driving style and confidence....

Every corner on a rally stage also has a set of optimum points, but it's infinitely more difficult to hit each of them every time [than in F1]because there are thousands of corners to learn during a rally, rather than just 15 or so. Loeb is best able to consistently work out where these points are, then nail them.

What inevitably follows is victory. That breeds huge confidence in his own abilities and methods, which means he's capable of resisting the temptation to become more aggressive in the heat of a battle. He instead channels his competitive spirit into driving perfectly, into better hitting the optimum points on every corner.

Loeb is unique in his ability to do this. When the other drivers in the service park want to go faster, they 'push harder'. They brake later, get on the power earlier, try to carry more speed around a corner. They start to miss turn in points or run wide onto loose gravel, shedding time. When they see that Loeb has still gone faster, they believe that the Frenchman must be pushing even harder than they are. Their only solution is to push harder still, which just sees them make even more mistakes.


Applause.

Should be able to see more of these actions, incredible indeed.

#1018 noikeee

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 14:58

I thought I'd come in here and the rally thread would be on the first page, full of outrage at this:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/107262

Seriously, no. Bugger off. Don't even go there. What a load of bullshit. Reminds me of the Nascar "chase", only worse.

#1019 artista

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 15:05

The first thing I did when I read the article was to check today is not April fools.

Which sense would a rally make if the result is determined just by the last stage?

I don't like it, I don't understand it, I don't think it is the right way to solve the problem. I just don't get it.

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#1020 skywing

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 15:07

That has to be a joke, it makes absolutely no sense...

#1021 OvDrone

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 15:13

I thought that I hadn't read right. :drunk:

#1022 hotstickyslick

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 15:14

Sadly I think the WRC is at a point where it will never regain the popularity it once had, and disastrous ideas such as that would only kill the sport faster.

#1023 sopa

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 15:15

Then it would not be rally any more, but rallycross or rallysprint, just with a long "warm up".

Yeah, it wouldn't make any sense. Rally as a sport will have officially died. It has gone through many changes throughout history (shorter stages, whatever), but this would be the complete end of it, not a mere "adaption".

I usually don't like to overdramatise, but would they really literally kill the sport? There has to be something else that is not mentioned. Or something else has to be considered to make the first three days actually worthwhile instead of warm-up cruising. Three days of recce mode. :lol:

Edited by sopa, 08 May 2013 - 15:18.


#1024 Muppetmad

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 15:32

Yeah, something must be missing - or you could easily have the scenario where the leader by over a minute loses the rally because of a dodgy power stage. It's an atrocious proposal and I hope they put it aside promptly.

#1025 noikeee

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 15:36

If I read it right, the idea is that they take the results at the end of the penultimate stage, then use it as a series of shootouts. 9th and 10th go into a shootout to see who gets 9th, 7th and 8th in a shootout for 7th, etc, up until 1st and 2nd in a head-to-head shootout for 1st.

So the first 3 days wouldn't be a warmup, strictly. More like qualifying. Which is still bonkers and completely outrageous.

What the WRC need is a deeper pool of different cars and drivers capable of winning, not gimmicks that go against its spirit. That won't fix the sport. People will hate it. It will be very obvious it's fake. What happens when a driver accumulates a 3 minute gap over 2nd place, then loses the final stage and therefore the rally by a tenth? That will be bloody great won't it.

#1026 ArnageWRC

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 15:43

Absolutely ridiculous - and at odds with what the sport is about; speed & endurance!!!
They keep making decisions like this, and nothing changes, in fact it gets worse.

Nothing is unlikely to rival F1, so accept that and try to become the best of the rest of Motorsport. Has Sportscars decided that Endurance is no longer relevant? Have they scrapped the 6, 10, 24 Hour races? No, because they are popular......

Imagine Le Mans decided in the last 15 minutes with a fastest 3 lap shoot out, when your 10 laps ahead - because that is what they're proposing for the WRC.


They are basically admitting that the Power stage hasn't worked...... but this is not the right way to fix it.

#1027 sopa

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 16:22

If I read it right, the idea is that they take the results at the end of the penultimate stage, then use it as a series of shootouts. 9th and 10th go into a shootout to see who gets 9th, 7th and 8th in a shootout for 7th, etc, up until 1st and 2nd in a head-to-head shootout for 1st.


Ok thanks, not as bad as I thought then. :lol:

So I see they want to make WRC a "TV-sport" and want to design everything around the final stage. Which is gradually moving it away from the fundamental point of rally.

From TV point of view I don't get what is wrong with a proper and good rally highlights programme on Sunday evening, which lasts for an hour. I know I enjoyed it - much more than any live stage coverage in fact. Because it covers it all.

#1028 DrProzac

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 16:53

I thought I'd come in here and the rally thread would be on the first page, full of outrage at this:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/107262

Seriously, no. Bugger off. Don't even go there. What a load of bullshit. Reminds me of the Nascar "chase", only worse.

O_O
This beats all Bernie's stupid ideas.

#1029 artista

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 17:02

Which is the sense of a stage where the drivers in even positions can improve, but drivers in uneven positions can only remain the same or fall back one position? That way, only the drivers that did worse in the rest of the rally than their last stage partners are allowed to improve. That's giving support to mediocrity and screwing who worked better.

#1030 kosmic33

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 18:13

Why not give out points for the highest jump, longest drift and most tyre smoke on the Power Stage too?

And maybe get rid of 90% of the stages too - waste of money and tyres.
Just a qualifying stage and a Power Stage would be much better for TV.

Current format might be around (in one way or another) since rallying started but since more people show up to watch your average round of the championship than pretty much any other sport in the world, it must be broke so they'll have to fix it.......



#1031 BRG

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 18:23

Oh well, the rest of rally sport will go on as before, and the WRC will quietly die. Which might be the best thing that could happen.

#1032 GodHimself

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 18:48

What an utterly, utterly disgraceful idea. This piece sums it all up pretty well.

#1033 Group B

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:53

Absolutely ridiculous - and at odds with what the sport is about; speed & endurance!!!
They keep making decisions like this, and nothing changes, in fact it gets worse.

Nothing is unlikely to rival F1, so accept that and try to become the best of the rest of Motorsport. Has Sportscars decided that Endurance is no longer relevant? Have they scrapped the 6, 10, 24 Hour races? No, because they are popular......

Imagine Le Mans decided in the last 15 minutes with a fastest 3 lap shoot out, when your 10 laps ahead - because that is what they're proposing for the WRC.


They are basically admitting that the Power stage hasn't worked...... but this is not the right way to fix it.

Yep, a truly dreadful idea, and another example of motorsport selling its soul to get a few more fundamentally disinterested simpletons watching on TV.

#1034 Ze Bum

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 12:44

How about this idea:

Give points for every stage for the 10 best times. 25 to the fastest, 18 to the 2nd fastest, 15 to the 3rd fastest and so on...

After the last stage the car with most points win. There would still be much in play in the last stage.

If you crash or your car breaks down you get 0 points for that stage, but you can still continue collecting points and even win the rally.

Every stage would be as important no matter long or short. Every car would go flat out all the time. Even the stadium stages would be more fun and more important.

----

I guess this is against the traditions of endurance and all that but...



#1035 midgrid

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 13:27

I wonder what Jean Todt makes of this idea...

#1036 Myrvold

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 16:06

"I had this discussion with Marcus [Gronholm] when we talked about this kind of idea a few years ago. Marcus said to me: 'Argh! If that comes, I'm not driving anymore."

"So I said: 'OK, that's fine. You go. I will get a driver who is cheaper, still wants to win; there will always be the guy who wants to win.

"'You can go home, buy the used car, pay for your fuel and parts and have fun in Finland, but nobody will remember you in three months. There will be young drivers who will love this format, they will become world champions and earn more money than you do now because they became real stars.'"


Ah, Mr.Capito... you just lost all respect.

#1037 Muppetmad

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 16:18

The issue with his comments are that they're founded on a lie; those young people won't become "real stars" because they'll have come through under an artificial and farcical concept that robs their achievements of any value they could ever have. If anything, they'll be "fake stars" because of it.

If they do happen to push this through, believe me, I'll remember Gronholm far longer than any pretenders who purposefully hang on to 2nd for three days and then blitz it for a power stage to win a rally.

#1038 Group B

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 19:34

We're seeing this crap creeping in to more and more sports; introducing infantile, fake formats and elements in order to boost audience figures with viewers that really aren't interested, but can be dragged in for a short period of spoon-fed, flag waving fireworks, usually with some jingoistic commentary to wash it all down. Just look at the tyre thread in this forum - the biggest topic here now is about the fallout of spice-it-up measures, rather than drivers, engineering, etc.

#1039 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:00

Lets just draw lots, be a whole lot cheaper than having to stage a rally.

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#1040 kosmic33

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 15:50

Lets just draw lots, be a whole lot cheaper than having to stage a rally.

It works for F1 so why not

This is the most retarded idea I've ever heard. I can't believe that its even being considered.

We'll see how great an idea they think it is if, for example, Ogier & Hirvonen pull a large lead on day one of Portugal and shake hands on cruising until the final stage 2 days later.....

#1041 Trickydicky

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:38

I've seen all this stuff about how the results of rallies might now be determined on 'Power Stages' and an article in Autosport about how radical thinking is needed for the WRC to 'survive'; and I think to myself, why? A) Why if the result of a rally would be determined on one stage alone would you bother with the rest of them and B) Why is such radical, not to mention nonsensical, thought required to revive a series that has already been a massive success in the past? Common sense says to me, go back to basics, go back to what 'the people' liked and what was proven to be successful. If the marketing men at the big car companies say no, so be it, I don't see where that is a problem, so long as they don't stop making cars altogether. Purpose built rally cars are not needed, and in fact in my view are part of the problem. Make the rally's big, make them hard, make them at night, and have them in the places where people actually like them, i.e Europe and Africa (and Australia and New Zealand I suppose). As an example, competitors, particularly say Ford and Citroen, would run a mile if it was suggested to bring the Concentration Run back to the Monte Carlo rally, but as a interest raising episode I can't think of anything working much better. Think of all those towns the cars will drive through on the way there, all the people noticing them and either realising, or being told, why. That’s an extreme example, but it shows that shortening and compacting everything has its down falls, especially when with such garbage TV coverage live viewers should be considered gold dust.

When I think of rallying and "hmm, could all that stuff work now though, can you close such a large amount of roads and get away with it nowadays?", I think of cycling. In cycling it doesn't seem to be an issue to close roads around entire countries for three week periods. All the classic cycling races remain, and apart from the fact that the cyclists are using someone else's red blood cells and are full of EPO, are as they always were. So what's to stop rallying. The Monte Carlo Rally should be our sports Tour De France, the San Remo our Giro.

Also, during Sky Sports coverage of the Spanish Grand Prix at the weekend Martin Brundle was discussing in commentary about how the team principles had had a meeting re the sports future, its rules and governance etc and he said something along the lines of (I can't remember the direct quote) "Those really aren't the people to be making those decisions. They are hard wired to win and will make decisions for the good of their organisations, not the sport". I though, well said Martin, the people who run rallying could do well to keep that in mind next time they go cap in hand to Ford and Citroen.

#1042 BRG

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 13:07

I've seen all this stuff about how the results of rallies might now be determined on 'Power Stages' and an article in Autosport about how radical thinking is needed for the WRC to 'survive'; and I think to myself, why? A) Why if the result of a rally would be determined on one stage alone would you bother with the rest of them and B) Why is such radical, not to mention nonsensical, thought required to revive a series that has already been a massive success in the past? Common sense says to me, go back to basics, go back to what 'the people' liked and what was proven to be successful.

Absolutely right! :up:

If the marketing men at the big car companies say no, so be it, I don't see where that is a problem, so long as they don't stop making cars altogether. Purpose built rally cars are not needed, and in fact in my view are part of the problem.
I agree. Things were much better back when private teams could build up their own cars relatively freely and not rely on having to buy exact specification kit from the manufacturer.

Make the rallies big, make them hard, make them at night, and have them in the places where people actually like them, i.e Europe and Africa (and Australia and New Zealand I suppose).
Yes, this would bring back the competitors and the spectators, which would of course then attract the manufacturers again. The success of the Dakar shows that long tough events are not unpopular.

As an example, competitors, particularly say Ford and Citroen, would run a mile if it was suggested to bring the Concentration Run back to the Monte Carlo rally, but as a interest raising episode I can't think of anything working much better. Think of all those towns the cars will drive through on the way there, all the people noticing them and either realising, or being told, why. That’s an extreme example, but it shows that shortening and compacting everything has its down falls, especially when with such garbage TV coverage live viewers should be considered gold dust.
Well, I would draw the line at the Concentration Run, that was obsolete decades ago when cars became reliable enough that just driving a long way was no longer a challenge in itself. But not much fun for the crews either. However, your main point is definitely valid

When I think of rallying and "hmm, could all that stuff work now though, can you close such a large amount of roads and get away with it nowadays?", I think of cycling. In cycling it doesn't seem to be an issue to close roads around entire countries for three week periods. All the classic cycling races remain, and apart from the fact that the cyclists are using someone else's red blood cells and are full of EPO, are as they always were. So what's to stop rallying. The Monte Carlo Rally should be our sports Tour De France, the San Remo our Giro.
I think that's a non-issue. Roads can and are closed readily for rallying (except in the good old UK of course). What has led the current style of rallying is the need to provide safety and medical coverage for each stage, where those resources are expensive and in comparatively short supply being mostly volunteer. Also the demands of TV coverage has called for fewer venues, to be repeated.

Also, during Sky Sports coverage of the Spanish Grand Prix at the weekend Martin Brundle was discussing in commentary about how the team principles had had a meeting re the sports future, its rules and governance etc and he said something along the lines of (I can't remember the direct quote) "Those really aren't the people to be making those decisions. They are hard wired to win and will make decisions for the good of their organisations, not the sport". I thought, well said Martin, the people who run rallying could do well to keep that in mind next time they go cap in hand to Ford and Citroen.
This is very true and has been shown in the past (eg CART). Ford are out now of course, but VW are in and will be no better in this respect, I fear. There is a long history to this; I recall Renault more or less dictating the 'Kitcar' rules in the 1990s and then not turning up to compete. The FIA needs to take the lead and the initiative and write rules in the interests of the sport, not of the manufacturers. And that applies right across motorsport. I had hoped with a FIA President with real rallying credentials, there would have been some progress in the right direction, but sadly Jean has let us down.

#1043 Myrvold

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 15:38

Time to bring back rallying as it was, indeed. Racing from A to B - not around A.

#1044 kosmic33

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 15:47

Time to bring back rallying as it was, indeed. Racing from A to B - not around A.

Via as many other letters as possible!

#1045 montoyasminion

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 17:27

Glad to see that PG will get to contest 6 rounds in a Fiesta WRC, even if he likely won't be too competitive. Always thought he was a character, something that's sorely missing at the moment. The days of Juha and Colin and Auriol are long gone, these drivers have no personality anymore, besides maybe Latvala.

#1046 EightGear

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 20:32

PG was quite fast two years ago in Italy with a Fiesta WRC, and of course he was in the lead when he crashed in Sweden that year. He's a very nice addition to the starting lists.

#1047 kosmic33

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 21:30

PG was quite fast two years ago in Italy with a Fiesta WRC, and of course he was in the lead when he crashed in Sweden that year. He's a very nice addition to the starting lists.

Yeah I always rated him quite highly but it never quite worked out for him.

Even last year, he generally had the beating for Breen in a (probably vastly) inferior car but the thing kept breaking down - it even burnt down while he was leading comfortably in Monte Carlo.....

Just a pity he couldnt have gotten the deal together in time to do his home round :cry:

#1048 Myrvold

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 23:45

Via as many other letters as possible!


Hooah!

I think, if the big egos in Norway & Sweden could've agreed. And FIA too. There could easily been a Rally Sweden-Norway. Starting in Stockholm, ending in Oslo. Then the next year, do it from Oslo to Stockholm. That would've been massive. Two capitals, two countries that's big on rally. Snow. And the old way of doing it.

#1049 BRG

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 20:58

Hooah!

I think, if the big egos in Norway & Sweden could've agreed. And FIA too. There could easily been a Rally Sweden-Norway. Starting in Stockholm, ending in Oslo. Then the next year, do it from Oslo to Stockholm. That would've been massive. Two capitals, two countries that's big on rally. Snow. And the old way of doing it.

The first WRC level Rally Ireland in 2007 ran in both the Republic of Ireland and the UK. So it is possible (and I suspect there is more tension between those two than between Sweden and Norway)

#1050 EightGear

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 10:27

Meanwhile on Corsica, Breen leads Kubica after 2 stages. Stage two was live on Eurosport. Tonight on 8 PM CET the re-run of that stage will also be shown live.