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Why is Button so highly rated?


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#201 Rinehart

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 15:28

Surely this thread is proving that Jenson is UNDER rated not OVER rated. The idea that he is not even as good as Kimi, that he's outscored Hamilton through luck, its just a coincidence that he wins many chaotic races and goes so well at the fast flowing tracks such as Spa and Suzuka and that he will never win another championship without a rocket-ship is testament to this.



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#202 Der Pate

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:11

Surely this thread is proving that Jenson is UNDER rated not OVER rated. The idea that he is not even as good as Kimi, that he's outscored Hamilton through luck, its just a coincidence that he wins many chaotic races and goes so well at the fast flowing tracks such as Spa and Suzuka and that he will never win another championship without a rocket-ship is testament to this.


Jenson may be underrated, because he works with the tyres and preserves them to have a reserve in the end of the race...Prost did that as well...Button doesn´t start a firework in the beginning of a race like Hamilton would do that...in times where the tyres are that important, Button has the better strategy...

#203 Tauhid

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:18

He isn't rated that highly by any motorsport expert besides Prost. He is a good driver and very reliable. But he has been thoroughly beaten by his team-mate this year both in qualifying and in race. British media especially DC rates him as one of the best in the grid and I guess you can do that but he is way behind Alonso, Lewis, Vettel and Kimi.

#204 Rinehart

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:19

Jenson may be underrated, because he works with the tyres and preserves them to have a reserve in the end of the race...Prost did that as well...Button doesn´t start a firework in the beginning of a race like Hamilton would do that...in times where the tyres are that important, Button has the better strategy...


I think speed captures the imagination better than other, more subtle skills do.

Its like in Football, goals seem to carry more value than the passes to create them, or the saves to stop them...

#205 Rinehart

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:29

[quote name='Tauhid' date='Nov 29 2012, 17:18' post='6058463']
He isn't rated that highly by any motorsport expert besides Prost.

Would you like to substantiate that claim?

Just for starters I can think of Ross Brawn, Martin Whitmarsh, Frank Williams, Alain Prost, Nikki Lauda, Jaques Villeneuve, Nigel Roebuck, Damon Hill, Martin Hines, Gerhard Berger, David Richards who are firmly on his side and heck even Flavio Briatore has been won over, admitting he had made a "mistake" in his prior opinion of Button.



#206 UPRC

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:53

When he's said this years McLaren was the worst, I believe he meant it was harder to set up and get into the sweet spot with tyres. Not that it was slow or anything.

Yup. He confirmed when talking to Simon Lazenby if I recall correctly.

Edited by UPRC, 29 November 2012 - 17:53.


#207 Afterburner

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:28

'Why is Jenson Button so highly rated?'

Pick any of his wins this year for an example--especially Spa and Australia. He seems to have a narrower sweet-spot than most of the other guys popularly tipped as being 'top' drivers, but when he's on it, it's hard to imagine him losing. Plus, whenever there are mixed wet/dry conditions, Button is usually a good bet for a win, in my opinion.

#208 superdelphinus

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 20:14

Jenson may be underrated, because he works with the tyres and preserves them to have a reserve in the end of the race...Prost did that as well...Button doesn´t start a firework in the beginning of a race like Hamilton would do that...in times where the tyres are that important, Button has the better strategy...t of


There isn't a whole lot of evidence for this view anymore I don't think

#209 velgajski1

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 20:30

Points decide championships, not rock-star like behaviour.

And in points, Button scored more after three years with the same equipment...


Thing is, as a McLaren fan I'd rather lose Button than Hamilton (Hamilton probably drove his best season in F1, and he is likely to even get better in future while Button is no longer young), altough it may be beneficial for McLaren to have a single star driver to focus, so that makes me hopeful for 2013. I do believe that if you objectively view all mistakes McLaren did in last 3 seasons - Hamilton got more of those, especially in 2010. and 2012., seasons where Hamilton was a lot better (not just in relation towards Button) than points suggested. McLaren just didn't do a very good job with Lewis in those 3 seasons, and its one of the big reasons they lost him in my opinion.

That being said, I think Button is an underrated driver and this is probably because he wasn't on his current level in earlier part of his career. He is already generation of drivers that are expected to be great as soon as they enter F1 (just a bit older than Kimi, Alonso), but Button needed more time to mature. Some fans will always look at his early career and say that he is overrated because of that.

Even his title season which I personally found brilliant overall - many people said he is worst WDC ever, without providing any sensible arguments to it. He's also the only driver on current grid to beat RBR/Vettel combo.

The real question I'd like to ask is why is Kimi so highly rated, but I'd get a lot of hate for that :)

Edited by velgajski1, 29 November 2012 - 20:41.


#210 PEW

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 20:46

Just a quick point- Kimi is older than JB

#211 sheepgobba

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 15:49

I guess Button being named British Competition Driver of the Year somewhat answers my question  ;)

#212 trogggy

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 15:58

I guess Button being named British Competition Driver of the Year somewhat answers my question ;)

No. Not even slightly.
It might answer 'Is Button popular with Autosport readers who bother to vote?' though.

Edited by trogggy, 03 December 2012 - 15:58.


#213 sheepgobba

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 16:04

No. Not even slightly.
It might answer 'Is Button popular with Autosport readers who bother to vote?' though.


The wink ;)

#214 trogggy

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 16:05

The wink ;)

Sorry, I thought that was your twitch.

#215 boldhakka

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 16:27

Didn't he pass Hamilton in rainy and treacherous conditions in the same car in Brazil? Hamilton is the clear benchmark in F1 these days, and you have to be pretty darn good to pull off a move like that in equal machinery.

I think he's rated about just right by most people. Very, very talented and can be extremely quick on his day, but a whisker below Hamilton's level.

#216 MightyMoose

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 17:13

Didn't he pass Hamilton in rainy and treacherous conditions in the same car in Brazil? Hamilton is the clear benchmark in F1 these days, and you have to be pretty darn good to pull off a move like that in equal machinery.

I think he's rated about just right by most people. Very, very talented and can be extremely quick on his day, but a whisker below Hamilton's level.


Well I'd just like to say that IMO LH is 1 of the benchmarks, but he's far from the CLEAR (FA & SV have justifiable claims to be up there). Just think you'll get some people paying attention to that part of your post rather than focusing on your other valid points.

I do agree he's not doing badly if he's rated anywhere between 4-7th best driver. Hardly a damning claim and not a devastating one to be regarded as below top 3 given how I think those 3 will stack up in F1 history at the end of their careers.

#217 aditya-now

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 17:17

I don't think he is so highly rated. Most people rate him about 4th/5th out of current drivers, which is about right. If people are expecting him to win the championship next year it's either wishful thinking or they haven't been paying attention to Vettel/Red Bull lately.


Definitely 5th strongest driver at the moment, ahead of Massa and Webber, behind Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton and Raikkonen.

It is not only his driving skills and sportive record that make Jenson so highly rated but his endearing personality. Apart from that, to me he is probably the last gentleman driver.

#218 RealRacing

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 17:28

Because of his girlfriend...

#219 thesham01

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 17:41

http://www.motorspor...he-loses-marko/

Second half of that article Marko speaks about Button (Mod EDIT: As can be seen below the article only mentions McLaren being weakened by losing Hamilton - which seems like a fair shout that most of us will agree with)

He's not that highly rated in the paddock I'd say.

Edited by MightyMoose, 03 December 2012 - 19:06.
You twisted this story to suit your anti-JB agenda. Don't repeat it again.


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#220 trogggy

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 17:56

http://www.motorspor...he-loses-marko/

Second half of that article Marko speaks about Button.

He's not that highly rated in the paddock I'd say.

What's 'not that highly' mean?
Not the best?
Not top 3?
Not top 5?
Not top 10?
Rubbish?

#221 PARAZAR

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 18:04

http://www.motorspor...he-loses-marko/

Second half of that article Marko speaks about Button.

He's not that highly rated in the paddock I'd say.


He doesn't speak about Button, he speaks about McLaren. It remains to be seen how the Button, Perez pairing works out next year.

#222 PayasYouRace

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 18:07

http://www.motorspor...he-loses-marko/

Second half of that article Marko speaks about Button.

He's not that highly rated in the paddock I'd say.


You're basing that entirely on this comment: "McLaren has been weakened significantly by the departure of Hamilton,"? He doesn't even mention Jenson directly.

#223 alframsey

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 18:19

Lately after JB's win in Brazil I have seen on few sites and personal colleagues suggesting Button could win the 2013 championship. Personally I don't see that happening, unless Mclaren build a rocketship like the Brawn of 2009. However, despite that the car this season was the best/fastest car but reliability issues hampered it down. Moreover, Button stated 2012 was the worst year yet the Mclaren was the fastest Mclaren in the last 3 years he has had. This doesn't boost well for next season right? In a car that was one of the best on majority of the races, Button was outraced and outqualified by Hamilton, and even lapped at the Canadian Grand Prix. For these reasons I personally don't see Button winning the 2013 championship. Sure he's a good driver but he isn't as consistent and unlike drivers like Alonso cannot adapt to changing circumstances requiring a car to his liking and balance. Leading to the famous 'grip' tag.

For these reasons I personally do not see why Button is highly rated.

Imo JB is in the same bracket as Webber, good but not the elite. And I for one do not see JB being able to sustain a WDC challenge all season long unless the car has a definite clear advantage, he won't be there next season unless the car the fastest all season. In 2009 he was lucky to win imo, that title should have been RBR's. As a McLaren fan I despair for our performance on the driver front next season. I can only wonder how we would have done if Lewis would have stayed on; maintain car performance, pit stops the best of anyone, strategy consistently good, and with Lewis performing brilliantly...

#224 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 19:33

1) Button and Hamilton's driving styles are completely different. So it doesn't really make sense to compare, just because they're on the same team.

2) Hamilton is probably one of the fastest of all time. Deriding Button in light of Hamilton is immature - it's like saying de la Rosa sucks because HRT comes in last place, it ignores intellectual investigation.

3) Just because a driver doesn't match another driver's strengths, doesn't mean he doesn't have his own strengths. Put Sebastian Loeb, Gronholm or Vale Rossi in an F1 car and they're probably not going to hang with the mid field. That doesn't mean they're not great.

People need to get over the armchair "that guy sucks!" punditry. McLaren International apparently thought he was worth paying a lot more money than I would bet anyone on this board makes, and I don't think they're knocking on any of our doors wanting our expert opinions on why Button sucks. All of these guys turn in heroic performances within milliseconds of each other, don't be a prat.





#225 alframsey

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 19:41

1) Button and Hamilton's driving styles are completely different. So it doesn't really make sense to compare, just because they're on the same team.

2) Hamilton is probably one of the fastest of all time. Deriding Button in light of Hamilton is immature - it's like saying de la Rosa sucks because HRT comes in last place, it ignores intellectual investigation.

3) Just because a driver doesn't match another driver's strengths, doesn't mean he doesn't have his own strengths. Put Sebastian Loeb, Gronholm or Vale Rossi in an F1 car and they're probably not going to hang with the mid field. That doesn't mean they're not great.

People need to get over the armchair "that guy sucks!" punditry. McLaren International apparently thought he was worth paying a lot more money than I would bet anyone on this board makes, and I don't think they're knocking on any of our doors wanting our expert opinions on why Button sucks. All of these guys turn in heroic performances within milliseconds of each other, don't be a prat.

I agree completely, I think Button is a very good driver and capable of some brilliant performances (Spa this year) but isn't in the top 3 bracket imo. Doesn't mean I think he 'sucks' as you say.

#226 Fastcake

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 20:28

People need to get over the armchair "that guy sucks!" punditry. McLaren International apparently thought he was worth paying a lot more money than I would bet anyone on this board makes, and I don't think they're knocking on any of our doors wanting our expert opinions on why Button sucks. All of these guys turn in heroic performances within milliseconds of each other, don't be a prat.


Just an aside, but I don't think they've been McLaren International for decades now ;)

#227 ali_M

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 20:29

I think we tend to be impressed with raw pace. Qualifying day does seem to mean a lot to us and we are far more likely to be more forgiving of a driver who does well in qualifying but not so well in the races. The quick qualifier who fails to do well in the races is often sympathised with to the effect that they were the victim of poor strategy etc.

OTOH, it's the reverse for the one who doesn't qualify so well. If he doesn't do so well in the races, then it's difficult for him to be seen as better than the one who has qualified better, especially since he is more likely to get stuck behind slower drivers and as a result, more likely to be involved in incidents.

In modern F1, it does help to qualify better since it's typically quite difficult to overtake. This advantage produced by a better qualifying position also usually benefits the better qualifier who may be equally quick or even marginally slower in race pace.

I don't see where Hamilton is typically faster than Button in race pace. Additionally, in most instances where Button qualifies behind Hamilton, it's not usually by much, though it may seem a lot because of how tight qualifying has been this and last season.

Button's qualities aren't those that score high on the sensationalism scale. As a result, many will be incredulous that he scored as well as Hamilton did over the 3yrs and proceed to make all sorts of excuses for Hamilton failure to OBVIOUSLY outscore Button. But they fail to realize that this is a comparison spanning 3yrs within the same team.

OTOH, drivers like Hamilton have better raw pace, a quality that shines very much on the sensationalism scale since they will typically have the upper hand in qualifying. Racing isn't only about qualifying better than your teammate and Button demonstrates this one well.

#228 thesham01

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 20:30

What's 'not that highly' mean?
Not the best?
Not top 3?
Not top 5?
Not top 10?
Rubbish?


Well Button is a top 6 driver anyway I'd say. Based on pure talent maybe less.

He doesn't speak about Button, he speaks about McLaren. It remains to be seen how the Button, Perez pairing works out next year.


The implication is clear; Button is not good enough to challenge.

You're basing that entirely on this comment: "McLaren has been weakened significantly by the departure of Hamilton,"? He doesn't even mention Jenson directly.


Not directly but the implication is clear; had Hamilton been there, McLaren would have challenged.

Now for whats its worth I think he's wrong, Button and McLaren will challenge.

#229 trogggy

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 20:34

Well Button is a top 6 driver anyway I'd say.

No, I was asking how the paddock rates him. 'Not that highly' is a bit vague.
TIA.

#230 Bruce

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 20:36

He's a World Champion. He beat Hamilton on equal terms (last year). Like him or not - he has achieved.

#231 garoidb

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 20:37

The implication is clear; Button is not good enough to challenge.

Not directly but the implication is clear; had Hamilton been there, McLaren would have challenged.


The implication is clear; he considers Hamilton to be better than Perez.

#232 thesham01

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 20:45

No, I was asking how the paddock rates him. 'Not that highly' is a bit vague.
TIA.


Well I don't know. Hence me saying '...I'd say' at the end of my original statement.

I'd presume they'd rate him a top 6 driver as well, would you agree?


The implication is clear; he considers Hamilton to be better than Perez.


Maybe you're right.

#233 Juan Kerr

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 20:49

Surely this thread is proving that Jenson is UNDER rated not OVER rated. The idea that he is not even as good as Kimi, that he's outscored Hamilton through luck, its just a coincidence that he wins many chaotic races and goes so well at the fast flowing tracks such as Spa and Suzuka and that he will never win another championship without a rocket-ship is testament to this.

My worry is if Perez doesn't beat Button people saying Button has 'upped his game' and complete rubbish like that rather than Perez isn't as quick as people think. McLaren will have a very mediocre year next year unfortunately even if they have a winning car.

#234 Dolph

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 20:52

yeh!!!!!!! Jenson wasn't let down by bad strategy calls, bungles in the pit stops or car failure all season................. :well:



..................oh hang on.....


Oh come on, dude. Hamilton retired from the lead 3 times. 3 TIMES!!! Buttone retired from second position ONCE

#235 trogggy

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 21:42

Well I don't know. Hence me saying '...I'd say' at the end of my original statement.

I'd presume they'd rate him a top 6 driver as well, would you agree?

If you don't know then why write it?
It's just a meaningless dig.


#236 thesham01

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 23:29

If you don't know then why write it?
It's just a meaningless dig.


Well the thread is about how highly he is rated, and the article seems to imply a rating for him.

No one on this forum knows anything really, doesn't stop others posting.

#237 PretentiousBread

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 23:36

Surely this thread is proving that Jenson is UNDER rated not OVER rated. The idea that he is not even as good as Kimi, that he's outscored Hamilton through luck, its just a coincidence that he wins many chaotic races and goes so well at the fast flowing tracks such as Spa and Suzuka and that he will never win another championship without a rocket-ship is testament to this.


He did outscore Hamilton through luck. I know this because I have a brain, a memory and a pair of eye balls.

#238 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 23:49

Well the thread is about how highly he is rated, and the article seems to imply a rating for him.

"McLaren has been weakened significantly by the departure of Hamilton."

Nope, not seeing it. Perhaps you can translate?

#239 Linther

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:48

"McLaren has been weakened significantly by the departure of Hamilton."

Nope, not seeing it. Perhaps you can translate?


McLaren has been weakened significantly by the departure of Hamilton," said Marko.

"Despite what Niki Lauda says, I don't see the possibility that he (Hamilton) will be racing for the championship (at Mercedes). That leaves only Ferrari.

From my POV this implies that McLaren will not be able to "race for the championship" with Button and Perez whereas they could have done so with Hamilton.

However, Dr. Marko also likes to play mind games and this could be one. I am sure that Button will deliver if McLaren gives him a car he can work with in most races.

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#240 Rinehart

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:58

He did outscore Hamilton through luck. I know this because I have a brain, a memory and a pair of eye balls.


But you are implying you are only using your brain, memory and eyes for 7 months. I haven't concluded that Button can fight Hamilton over such a short and for some, convenient, period of time. I think you'll find that takes a larger dose of all three attributes.

#241 Dalton007

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:59

Go get'em, Jenson. :)

#242 Buttoneer

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:11

McLaren has been weakened significantly by the departure of Hamilton," said Marko.

"Despite what Niki Lauda says, I don't see the possibility that he (Hamilton) will be racing for the championship (at Mercedes). That leaves only Ferrari.

From my POV this implies that McLaren will not be able to "race for the championship" with Button and Perez whereas they could have done so with Hamilton.

However, Dr. Marko also likes to play mind games and this could be one. I am sure that Button will deliver if McLaren gives him a car he can work with in most races.

He hasn't mentioned Button, Vettel, Alonso, Webber, Massa, Rosberg or Perez.

To me, its a stretch to say that Marko had anything at all to say in that interview other than Red Bull will do well in 2013, but Mercedes won't, despite Hamilton. To me, he's talking about WCC possibilities, and not that 'The paddock doesn't think that highly of Button.' At best, one might conclude only that Marko doesn't see the Button/Perez combo winning a WCC for McLaren, and I'd have to agree.

#243 slmk

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:21

He hasn't mentioned Button, Vettel, Alonso, Webber, Massa, Rosberg or Perez.

To me, its a stretch to say that Marko had anything at all to say in that interview other than Red Bull will do well in 2013, but Mercedes won't, despite Hamilton. To me, he's talking about WCC possibilities, and not that 'The paddock doesn't think that highly of Button.' At best, one might conclude only that Marko doesn't see the Button/Perez combo winning a WCC for McLaren, and I'd have to agree.


Weird, I had the exact opposite reaction - this is definitely a subtle jab at Perez/Button, or else why would he bring Lewis in the conversation. McLaren has been so awful operationally and in terms of reliability that you don't even need drivers to justify/prove that they're not even close to being in contention for any titles.

#244 PretentiousBread

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:44

But you are implying you are only using your brain, memory and eyes for 7 months. I haven't concluded that Button can fight Hamilton over such a short and for some, convenient, period of time. I think you'll find that takes a larger dose of all three attributes.


That is exactly what i'm not doing, i'm including everything. At the end of 2011, Hamilton had lost more points in total across the two years than Button had through unreliability/operational errors. The gap is larger over three years than it is over the last 7 months. As I've previously said, Hamilton lost significantly more points in 2010 thorugh this, Button lost marginally more in 2011, and Hamilton has lost a tonne more in 2012. That you still equate JB's admittedly unfortunate 2011 with Hamilton's much greater points loss in 2010 and 2012 is just a massively facile argument.

#245 Force Ten

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:54

Weird, I had the exact opposite reaction - this is definitely a subtle jab at Perez/Button, or else why would he bring Lewis in the conversation.

When the only thing you have is a hammer everything suddenly starts to seem like nails to you.

#246 ElDictatore

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:02

http://www.motorspor...he-loses-marko/

Second half of that article Marko speaks about Button (Mod EDIT: As can be seen below the article only mentions McLaren being weakened by losing Hamilton - which seems like a fair shout that most of us will agree with)

He's not that highly rated in the paddock I'd say.


I can't take someone seriously who rules out McLaren as one of the championship contenders next year. They had the fastest car at the end of this season and even if not. You just can't rule out somebody that strong.
Btw. Isn't it the same Marko who criticized Alonso about his "psycho games"? Marko is just a crazy guy. If you watch his interviews on the german TV, you'll maybe understand why.

Edited by ElDictatore, 04 December 2012 - 13:02.


#247 bub

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:21

I can't take someone seriously who rules out McLaren as one of the championship contenders next year. They had the fastest car at the end of this season and even if not. You just can't rule out somebody that strong.
Btw. Isn't it the same Marko who criticized Alonso about his "psycho games"? Marko is just a crazy guy. If you watch his interviews on the german TV, you'll maybe understand why.


This is why I think Marko doesn't rate Button highly. McLaren had arguably the best car in 2012 but he doesn't seem to consider them a threat. Btw although Red Bull would be my strong favorite I think it's stupid not to consider McLaren as a main rival along with Ferrari because they've shown they can build good cars and Button has shown he can win the championship.

#248 sofarapartguy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:51

This is why I think Marko doesn't rate Button highly. McLaren had arguably the best car in 2012 but he doesn't seem to consider them a threat. Btw although Red Bull would be my strong favorite I think it's stupid not to consider McLaren as a main rival along with Ferrari because they've shown they can build good cars and Button has shown he can win the championship.


Are we seriously arguing about Marko's oppinion? Marko, who is well known for his "precise" farsightedness when it comes to drivers abilities?



#249 eronrules

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:53

Are we seriously arguing about Marko's oppinion? Marko, who is well known for his "precise" farsightedness when it comes to drivers abilities?


he did saw vettel's potential

#250 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:58

he did saw vettel's potential


He also strongly advised Dietrich Mateschitz that Sauber should sign Enrique Bernoldi instead of Kimi Raikkonen.