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Will Vettel overhaul Schumi ?


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Poll: Vettel overhauling Schumi's record (223 member(s) have cast votes)

Vettel will ...

  1. overhaul Schumi's 7 titles (7 + titles) (47 votes [21.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.08%

  2. match Schumi's titles (7 titles) (22 votes [9.87%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.87%

  3. will fall short of the magic 7 (154 votes [69.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 69.06%

Would you prefer Vettel matching or beating Schumi's record?

  1. Yes - Why not? Records are good for sport and show ultimate Greatness ! (81 votes [36.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.32%

  2. No - Such extreme records harm the sport (54 votes [24.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.22%

  3. No - Records are fine but I dont want Vettel to get that one. (88 votes [39.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 39.46%

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#1 sailor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:37

At one time the record looked formidable - almost unachievable but in light for Vettel winning his third so young , 7WDC definitely looks like a target withing sight.

Simple question - Will Vettel overhaul or match the magic 7? What do you think? Regardless of whether you want or dont want that to happen. Please just answer the question in isolation as to how likely it looks for Vettel to get there.

Will add another poll to indicate posters preferences. Personally - even as a fan - I would be in 2 minds as it may harm the sport's popularity.



Edited by sailor, 29 November 2012 - 10:44.


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#2 Ali_G

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:37

I think there's a big possibility of him not winning another WDC.

#3 Creepy

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:39

I think there's a big possibility of him not winning another WDC.

+1

#4 ensign14

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:40

Or even losing one.

#5 sailor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:46

I think there's a big possibility of him not winning another WDC.


Very unlikely.

You may not want that to happen but I d say its 99% certain that he will get another title. I dont consider 1% as a big possibility but that s me.

#6 superuser

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:46

Let me put it this way: if anyone of the current drivers can do it, it's him. But, on the other hand, Alonso was also going to break records, then Hamilton, and look what happened. So, he has the best chance but it's still pretty slim.

#7 sailor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:52

Let me put it this way: if anyone of the current drivers can do it, it's him. But, on the other hand, Alonso was also going to break records, then Hamilton, and look what happened. So, he has the best chance but it's still pretty slim.


I am looking at this from a purely technical perspective because I dont really want that to happen.

Such records only happen when all teh stars align - amply made clear by failure of Alonso and Hamilton and success of Schumi.

But 3 WDCs already looks like the stars are somewhat aligned.

1> Great driver in a great team for a long period of time.
2> Team making quick cars out of the box - meaning season start (2012 was an off year)
3> Team able to out develop others - Newey certainly does that
4> Team identifies & fixes issues without wasting time - RBR much better than Ferrari
5> Team making very few errors srtategically (unlike Macca)
6> Driver capitalising each opportunity ( hunger for even one single point) - Seb has that much more than others
7> Complete driver - Great in Quali , Good race pace , salvages bad situations like AD 12 and Bra 12

If Seb signs with RBR and RBR maintain the team and dont lose the plot - I think there is a good chance (i d say 30% ) that he goes on to beat 7.

#8 Xpat

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:01

Watching Schumacher dominate like he did was at once amazing and boring. I think a better mix of WDC winners is better for my entertainment.

#9 seahawk

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:02

7 titles are a lot, but if he stays with RBR and Newyes stays with RBR until 2016 it is not impossible. I would not be surprised if he takes No.4 next season.

I mean Schumacher in his Ferrari days did not only win because of his driving but mostly because of Byrne, Brawn (incl. the rest of the technical team) and Todt.

Edited by seahawk, 29 November 2012 - 11:04.


#10 paulrobs

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:14

If Newey stays at RBR and Renault do a good job with the new engines I can't see why he can't do it. He's better than I ever gave him credit for that's for sure. Big ask though given how competitive and unpredictable current F1 is.

#11 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:25

Can't vote on your poll as you have strange options for the second part.

I do not think Seb will get 7 WDCs, but the reason is not what your options provide.

I just think that Red Bull won't be that dominant the coming years. Nothing to do with wanting him to win, not wanting him to win -- or that such results are harmful or whatever.

#12 stanga

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:29

Quite possibly!

Schumacher didn't have a B-team jumping out of the way and just had to rely on his teammate. Over the seasons, it will play it's part to lesser or greater degree.

#13 sailor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:31

Can't vote on your poll as you have strange options for the second part.


I do not think Seb will get 7 WDCs, but the reason is not what your options provide.

So vote option 3 in Q1.

Second Q is not for reasons but asking if you prefer that Vettel matches the record.

I just think that Red Bull won't be that dominant the coming years. Nothing to do with wanting him to win, not wanting him to win -- or that such results are harmful or whatever.


The second question is simply asking for your preference . not why Vettel wont be able to match the record.

1> Yes you d want that to happen - reason for your preferring that scenario.
2> No - you wouldnt - Reason #1 for Your saying "NO you dont Prefer that"
3> No - You woulndnt Reason #2 for Your saying "NO you dont Prefer that"


#14 SenorSjon

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:32

Lol, Vettel and his three little helpers. Maybe Ferrari should buy HRT. They are bound to get lapped, so they could hold up any competition at least twice a race.

#15 Lights

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:34

You would think by now 'can it get luckier than this?' but it probably could yeah. He could win a lot more titles.

#16 sailor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:37

You would think by now 'can it get luckier than this?' but it probably could yeah. He could win a lot more titles.



Its not a thread about Button's 2009 title or Kimi;s 2007 . Now those were lucky in different ways !

3X cant be deemed lucky by any stretch

Edited by sailor, 29 November 2012 - 11:41.


#17 stanga

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:40

Given how L33t V3ttle is, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets bored of winning titles and moves onto solving the Israel-Palestine crisis in the Middle East. Ok, maybe an exaggeration, but maybe he will get bored?

#18 Baddoer

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:40

As long as rubber cars are allowed - yes.

#19 wayned

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:42

Yes he has 3 but cannot see him or anyone ever matching or beating 7.

The Red Bull bubble will burst soon (I hope) and we have a new WDC for 2013.

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#20 byronbolscher

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:44

Quite possibly!

Schumacher didn't have a B-team jumping out of the way and just had to rely on his teammate. Over the seasons, it will play it's part to lesser or greater degree.


Ferrari had Sauber as a B team..

#21 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:44

If the 2014- regulations suit Red Bull and Newey as much as the 2009-2013 regulations then Vettel could easily do it.

This current set of regs and aerodynamic requirments have really suited Newey. Prior to that, his designs were winning races but his last champion and WCC was in 1999 and 1998 respectively. That is a big gap and Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton and Button fitted in neatly.




#22 Shiroo

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:45

Schumacher got his 3rd title at age of 31 or 33? Vettel got his one, at age of 25. He has like 8 years advantage :p

#23 stanga

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:45

Its not a thread about Button's 2009 title or Kimi;s 2007 . Now those were lucky in different ways !

3X cant be deemed lucky by any stretch


There was no luck involved in the 2nd, granted - he had the best car by 20 nautical miles. The first wasn't that lucky either - he had his fair share of problems, but the car was supreme when the EBD hit the ground. It was a close battle, though.

The third, though, was incredibly lucky. You only have to look at the last race when he crashed with Senna - he had no right to come out of that without at the very least tire damage, nevermind how lucky he was not to be tagged by the cars coming past him.

#24 byronbolscher

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:48

Its not a thread about Button's 2009 title or Kimi;s 2007 . Now those were lucky in different ways !

3X cant be deemed lucky by any stretch


Luck is always needed. No one became world champion without luck, ok, maybe Joachim Rindt, the poor guy. But to the point, Alonso has lost 3 title battles.. and you can argue he lost two by his own fault, in 2007, if he didn't do the qualifying mind games in Hungary, he wouldn't have been penalized and he would've taken a few points more, making him WC. And this year he took him self out at the start of the Japanese GP. 2010 Ferrari was only watching Webber and forgot Vettel was also in the title battle.

Edited by byronbolscher, 29 November 2012 - 11:49.


#25 sailor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:50

Lol, Vettel and his three little helpers. Maybe Ferrari should buy HRT. They are bound to get lapped, so they could hold up any competition at least twice a race.


Why should Ferrari buy them? They already do whats needed - especially cucumber ! LOL

#26 Nonesuch

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:54

Sure, it's possible. With the regulations so strict it's hard to overhaul a team that has hit a sweet spot.

More freedom - more competition! ;) :up:

#27 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:56

So vote option 3 in Q1.

Second Q is not for reasons but asking if you prefer that Vettel matches the record.



The second question is simply asking for your preference . not why Vettel wont be able to match the record.

1> Yes you d want that to happen - reason for your preferring that scenario.
2> No - you wouldnt - Reason #1 for Your saying "NO you dont Prefer that"
3> No - You woulndnt Reason #2 for Your saying "NO you dont Prefer that"


That's the point my friend, I do not have the option that would even closely reflect my point of view. I do not mind him getting to 7 or above, nor do I mind if he falls short -- and I do not think that beating the magical 7 would be harmful.

No big deal though. I think that while I didn't vote, I pretty much had my say.

Thanks for taking your time to reply.



#28 byronbolscher

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:01

Sure, it's possible. With the regulations so strict it's hard to overhaul a team that has hit a sweet spot.

More freedom - more competition! ;) :up:


More freedom simply means that the one with the most money or it's own track to test on (hint, Ferrari) has the most advantage. We had loads of freedom in the Schumacher era, and it was era with the least amount of competition. Ever since we had less freedom in the regulations, we had Alonso take 2 titles, Kimi 1, Hamilton 1, Button 1, and then Vettel 3, but only one of them was a really dominant title, the other 2 could've easily gone the other way. And more to the point, we had the title decided in the last race in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2012.

#29 ayali

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:02

If anyone can do it, it's Seb.
The others lack in the title dept. or will be too old.

I can see him win 1 or 2 more with Red Bull and then move to Ferrari and win a few more.
Voted "he'll equal Schumi's 7 titles"
2 German greats holding this record together would be fantastic :up:

#30 SenorSjon

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:03

Why should Ferrari buy them? They already do whats needed - especially cucumber ! LOL

They are closing shop, so there goes the support. :p

The last decade, engines became less important. What if aero has the same rules? IE, only 8 different aero changes/season, which includes every little winglet? Have you scrapped a wing or car, it goes from your allowance. So Grosjean could have a lot of grid penalties for all those lost parts.;)

When you can compensate aero with more engine development, then you have a different ball game. Now it is just having the best car designer around and you can win.

#31 Kucki

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:06

Hamilton = Only 1 WDC by now, has a strange attachment to bad luck, choosed to waste his prime years by going to a bad team, teams wont exchange a Alonso, Raikkönen or Vettel for him, might not be able to get back into a top seat until late in his career

Button = Too old, could probalby win 1 or 2 more until he retires.

Webber = Red Bull would never allow him or give him the tools to challenge Vettel

Alonso = Drives average in high pressure qualys and races. With some FIA help might get his third title, probably a fourth one until he retires 2016

Vettel = With Newey and Renault and a clear Nr. 2 driver support, you can expect him to go for the title every single year from now til he goes to Ferrari in 2017. He can easily race until he is 40 as Schumacher showed, 15 more years in top cars, expect some 5 - to 8 more titles. He could retire with 10 titles.

Edited by Kucki, 29 November 2012 - 12:14.


#32 H2H

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:08

Or even losing one.


Not so much :lol:

Beating Schumis record is extremely difficult. If we assume Seb drives until he is 35, so another 10 years he would have to win 50% of the titles. Of course he is a great but like Schumi he needs the right circumstances to do so. With the field being as close as it is those circumstances are quite unlikely to be there often enough.

2014 could be a watershed year as the rules will be very different.

Edited by H2H, 29 November 2012 - 12:09.


#33 Spillage

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:16

The scary thing is that Vettel may be as little as a third of the way through his career and is already a triple world champion. In that light I can see him reaching 7 titles and possibly reaching the IMO even more impressive Schumacher tally of 91 wins. Whether he'll ever be as good as Schumacher is a different matter, but its a frightening prospect; if he peaks in his early thirties, as F1 drivers tend to do, how good is he going to be then? I've a feeling Vettel is going to become the benchmark by which his era is defined, much as Schumacher and Senna were before him.

#34 1Devil1

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:36

The scary thing is that Vettel may be as little as a third of the way through his career and is already a triple world champion. In that light I can see him reaching 7 titles and possibly reaching the IMO even more impressive Schumacher tally of 91 wins. Whether he'll ever be as good as Schumacher is a different matter, but its a frightening prospect; if he peaks in his early thirties, as F1 drivers tend to do, how good is he going to be then? I've a feeling Vettel is going to become the benchmark by which his era is defined, much as Schumacher and Senna were before him.


Vettel needs to win at least seven titles to be regarded high as Alonso or Hamilton. This tone of this thread is a joke I never saw so much bitterness before. As I said before Vettel could be two laps down, winning a grand prix after a comeback and still users would find a lot of excuses why Vettel is not good. If Hamilton does a recovery, this forum would explode what a high class driver he is. Even after his poles this year in the best car (for qualifying) everybody went crazy, but in the end he did nothing different to what Vettel did this and last year. The different is one get bashed and the other get praised. Both for me are the best qualifiers (would count Rosberg in) and deserve to be seen as the best of the pack

#35 Jimisgod

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:43

If the RBR is as dominant as it was in the 2nd half of 2010, 2011, and again in the 2nd half of 2012, he will.

If Alonso gets a Ferrari that is better than the 3rd or 4th fastest car... no. Alonso made one error in a race all year. Japan. If the cars were as evenly matched as say McLaren and Ferrari in 2000, Alonso will gap him.

#36 SenorSjon

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:46

You don't see the battles you used to see between the no1 and the no2 in the championship. That is the stuff legends are made of.

Hakkinen and Schumacher scrapped more than once every other race. Even Alonso and Schumacher had their fights. Before that, you had Senna and Prost hammering it out. But who is battling Vettel? It seems each race is an episode in itself, but title contenders hardly meet up like they used to.

#37 tifosiMac

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:46

It all depends on if Vettel gets a decent car every season and that is the combination every driver wants. Yes he's won 3 WDC's but whats to say he'll have a challenger in every season? There could be a run where Button, Alonso, Hamilton etc win multiple titles, we just don't know what is around the corner.

#38 1Devil1

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:59

You don't see the battles you used to see between the no1 and the no2 in the championship. That is the stuff legends are made of.

Hakkinen and Schumacher scrapped more than once every other race. Even Alonso and Schumacher had their fights. Before that, you had Senna and Prost hammering it out. But who is battling Vettel? It seems each race is an episode in itself, but title contenders hardly meet up like they used to.


Your memory serve you wrong. Schumacher and Hakkinen had good battles in between 1998 and 2000. But clearly not in every race. The McLaren was a much better car in 1998. There are some classics like Suzuka 2000 or Monza 1998 but this memories give you the feeling both fought in every races. Alonso and Vettel had their fair share of fights this year (Monza). Also when you have more competitive drivers and teams it's much harder to meet you on track every race because one could stay on the front the other on p3,p4. Vettel can't great "stuff legends are made of" of his own, the circumstances must be right

Edited by 1Devil1, 29 November 2012 - 13:00.


#39 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:15

He's proven he is capable if the car is there or thereabouts. He only had the best car for about 6 races this season so why not? If Newey and RB stay well motivated , funded and creative I can't see why not. He's young enough to win another 10 and still retire 8 years younger than Schumi is now, scary eh!

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#40 Arry2k

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:17

It all depends on if Vettel gets a decent car every season and that is the combination every driver wants. Yes he's won 3 WDC's but whats to say he'll have a challenger in every season? There could be a run where Button, Alonso, Hamilton etc win multiple titles, we just don't know what is around the corner.

This.

#41 StefanArak

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:19

Very unlikely.

You may not want that to happen but I d say its 99% certain that he will get another title. I dont consider 1% as a big possibility but that s me.


That's a ridiculous assessment. Things in F1 can change very quickly, of course he probably is quite likely to win another title, but not 99%?!

EDIT:

If Seb signs with RBR and RBR maintain the team and dont lose the plot - I think there is a good chance (i d say 30% ) that he goes on to beat 7.


A 30% chance?! I really think you need to re-assess how you think about probabilities. If you think both of the above are the case I'd go down to your local bookies and put on a few bets, as the odds they lay will be way in excess of your estimates, making it a profitable bet for you.

Edited by StefanArak, 29 November 2012 - 13:22.


#42 PinkZepStones

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:19

I think there's a big possibility of him not winning another WDC.


This guy has it spot on only I'd say after 2013,



#43 eoin

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:22

He has a great chance, especially with Hamilton out of the picture for the next 3 years.

#44 Jackmancer

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:25

Let me put it this way: if anyone of the current drivers can do it, it's him. But, on the other hand, Alonso was also going to break records, then Hamilton, and look what happened. So, he has the best chance but it's still pretty slim.



Yeah, when Hamilton arrived and looked to set his first year the crown I was thinking - oke this guy is gonna break Schumacher's record. Now Vettel is already almost halfway there to 7, but nobody knows really. Vettel might have mindproblems when his car just isn't the best.

#45 BenettonB192

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:28

It's plausible that he could achieve it. But what happens in reality depends on so many factors it's impossible to make predictions.
In general i think competition in F1 is too fierce to retain the upper hand over more then a couple years. The last 3 years and especially Schumi's Ferrari years that's only a very rare exception of the rule.

#46 StefanArak

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:32

If Hamilton does a recovery, this forum would explode what a high class driver he is.


Change the record mate, all I ever read in this forum is "if X had hit Y, the forum would be in meltdown :'(". Or "If Y did this instead of X, you guys would be signing his praises". No, that's just your confirmation bias in effect, get over it.

#47 spacekid

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:34

Yes I think its very possible (even likely?) that Vettel will overhaul Schumi's record. I think he'll be favourite to win again next year - the only competition will be Alonso in the Ferrari and I don't think Ferrari will catch up to Newey next season. I can't see Button getting the job done.

After that Seb will have maybe 10 years to win another 3/4 titles. There are only 2-3 drivers at the moment who could beat him, and one of them has gone to Mercedes. Alonso should win more titles but I somehow get the feeling things might not work out for him at Ferrari and Kimi - bless him, who knows what will happen there. He could win again, he could decide to go on holiday. Who knows.

Incidentally, yes Seb has had the best car but I don't believe that Webber has been given inferior equipment. Seb is just that bit better than Mark to maximise the car imo. If the Red Bull driver line up was say Webber and Vergne I think we'd be viewing the Red Bull as maybe joint third best car with the Lotus. Seb is getting the job done where Mark isn't, the car isn't driving itself.

Edited by spacekid, 29 November 2012 - 13:37.


#48 SenorSjon

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:45

Your memory serve you wrong. Schumacher and Hakkinen had good battles in between 1998 and 2000. But clearly not in every race. The McLaren was a much better car in 1998. There are some classics like Suzuka 2000 or Monza 1998 but this memories give you the feeling both fought in every races. Alonso and Vettel had their fair share of fights this year (Monza). Also when you have more competitive drivers and teams it's much harder to meet you on track every race because one could stay on the front the other on p3,p4. Vettel can't great "stuff legends are made of" of his own, the circumstances must be right


That's why I said, every other race.;) I remember at least more of those toe-to-toe fights than I've seen the past three years.


I read a nice analysis on Vettels overtaking skills in Brazil.
P24
Senna/Perez out
P22
Maldonado crash
P21
Grosjean crash
P20
new teams
P14
Torro Rosso's
P12
Schumacher flat tire and later went in Torro Rosso mode.
P11
Rosberg also had a flat tire and was never seen again during the race
P10
Hamilton crash
P9

So he went from P9 to P6 by overtaking:
Sightseeing Kimi (was he behind Vettel when that happened?)
Di Resta crash (was he in front of him?)
Kobayashi (overtake)
So in effect, who did Vettel really overtake? Passing the new teams and bolt-on teammates doesn't really count.

In my book he is the 'worst' three times WDC in a row. If he stays with RedBull and more important, Newey stays at RedBull, then yes, he can win more than Schumacher. Just like Schumacher could if he stayed at Benetton in 1997 or switched to a Newey build car from 1997 onwards. But... he didn't and got rewarded with five consecutive titels at the start of the century.



#49 sailor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:52

That's why I said, every other race.;) I remember at least more of those toe-to-toe fights than I've seen the past three years.


I read a nice analysis on Vettels overtaking skills in Brazil.
P24
Senna/Perez out
P22
Maldonado crash
P21
Grosjean crash
P20
new teams
P14
Torro Rosso's
P12
Schumacher flat tire and later went in Torro Rosso mode.
P11
Rosberg also had a flat tire and was never seen again during the race
P10
Hamilton crash
P9

So he went from P9 to P6 by overtaking:
Sightseeing Kimi (was he behind Vettel when that happened?)
Di Resta crash (was he in front of him?)
Kobayashi (overtake)
So in effect, who did Vettel really overtake? Passing the new teams and bolt-on teammates doesn't really count.

In my book he is the 'worst' three times WDC in a row. If he stays with RedBull and more important, Newey stays at RedBull, then yes, he can win more than Schumacher. Just like Schumacher could if he stayed at Benetton in 1997 or switched to a Newey build car from 1997 onwards. But... he didn't and got rewarded with five consecutive titels at the start of the century.


Well - this is exactly something this thread is not meant for.

Just say whether you think he will or not go on to better or match SChumi. You also had a choice to say if you would want to see such an eventuality

Whether after that he will be the worst 7X champ is another matter. BTW - 3X is an exalted club and being the worst among those isnt really something to scoff at either
LOL



#50 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:54

If you can put only a yes or no, this thread would die out easily. So I elaborated a bit. :p