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Will Vettel overhaul Schumi ?


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Poll: Vettel overhauling Schumi's record (223 member(s) have cast votes)

Vettel will ...

  1. overhaul Schumi's 7 titles (7 + titles) (47 votes [21.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.08%

  2. match Schumi's titles (7 titles) (22 votes [9.87%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.87%

  3. will fall short of the magic 7 (154 votes [69.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 69.06%

Would you prefer Vettel matching or beating Schumi's record?

  1. Yes - Why not? Records are good for sport and show ultimate Greatness ! (81 votes [36.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.32%

  2. No - Such extreme records harm the sport (54 votes [24.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.22%

  3. No - Records are fine but I dont want Vettel to get that one. (88 votes [39.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 39.46%

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#51 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:55

I think it is unlikely that he will reach 7 WDCs. He has the talent, but talent isn't enough. There are at least three drivers on the grid with the talent to do it, and ultimately, that is why I think that none of them will.

I don't like your poll options on the second question. How do I answer "I don't care"?

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#52 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:58

...

In my book he is the 'worst' three times WDC in a row...


So what you're saying is that he is worse than Fangio and Schumacher (the only other drivers who have won 3 titles in a row.) I don't think many people would disagree with that statement.

#53 Zava

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:59

In my book he is the 'worst' three times WDC in a row.

now that's a surprise, considering only Schumacher and Fangio made the WDC hat trick apart from him.
edit: damn! :p

Edited by Zava, 29 November 2012 - 13:59.


#54 sailor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 14:00

If you can put only a yes or no, this thread would die out easily. So I elaborated a bit. :p


Thanks for the concern. And thats the reason I put a few qualifiers in the preferences question.
But as with all Vettel / Alo / Ham threads , we are constantly in danger of digressing from the topic into a bash fest - which is what I want to avoid.

It would be great if we have a sizable poll response with comments which further show how probable that scenario is and maybe debate around whether that is good for the sport or not.

Edited by sailor, 29 November 2012 - 14:04.


#55 sopa

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 14:10

After Vettel beats Schumacher's record, he will be the
worst most successful driver ever. :rotfl:

#56 BillBald

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 14:15

It depends on whether Vettel is deluded enough to think that he could do it without Red Bull & Newey.



#57 mnmracer

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 14:17

After Vettel beats Schumacher's record, he will be the
worst most successful driver ever. :rotfl:

:cool:

#58 mnmracer

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 14:26

It depends on whether Vettel is deluded enough to think that he could do it without Red Bull & Newey.

I think someone who knows what it takes to win three world championships, beating his team-mate in 73% of qualifyings in the past 4 years, scoring almost 60% of Red Bulls points in the last 4 years, is safely not as deluded as the hypocrite haters who have to resort to double standards to avoid giving him a single shred of credit.

#59 sailor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 14:34

It depends on whether Vettel is deluded enough to think that he could do it without Red Bull & Newey.


Of course it does. :)
But I dont think he is as deluded as Lewis that he moves away from a top team.

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#60 LiJu914

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 14:37

I read a nice analysis on Vettels overtaking skills in Brazil.
...

Does something qualify as a "nice analysis" even if it´s wrong?

Edited by LiJu914, 29 November 2012 - 14:56.


#61 H2H

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 14:54

Vettel might have mindproblems when his car just isn't the best.


According to his season - no at all.

#62 Rinehart

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 15:01

It seems to be that the pattern of competitiveness goes in phases.
Ferrari, then Renault, then RBR have dominated. It seems to coincide with major regulation changes and whichever team aces the regulations for that phase.
So I can well see Vettel winning again in 2013, but then we could be talking a phase from 2014 for several years where another team dominates.
If this pattern continues to hold, lets see what the 2014 Red Bull is like, or if indeed Vettel stays there, or guesses the right destination...

#63 Boxerevo

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 15:05

He already has 3.

Is young,fast,competent and very luck.

I don't doubt.

Edited by Boxerevo, 29 November 2012 - 15:06.


#64 SenorSjon

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 15:16

So what you're saying is that he is worse than Fangio and Schumacher (the only other drivers who have won 3 titles in a row.) I don't think many people would disagree with that statement.


Yup. Alltough other 3+ WDC's like Senna and Prost are higher on my list. In that time, other teams had more chances to pick up speed and develop their cars. I miss the times when there was no computer farm calculating everything during the race.

Does something qualify as a "nice analysis" even if it´s wrong?

Care to correct it? He gloats he is now some kind of overtake master, while practically half the field let him by twice. Or that other teams perform dirty tricks, bringing it like RB is a holy saint.

I think someone who knows what it takes to win three world championships, beating his team-mate in 73% of qualifyings in the past 4 years, scoring almost 60% of Red Bulls points in the last 4 years, is safely not as deluded as the hypocrite haters who have to resort to double standards to avoid giving him a single shred of credit.

Oddly enough, the same reasoning is used against Schumacher, yet Vettel has 'used' less teammates. It seems when Webber is performing well, Vettel isn't too relaxed in the car and vica versa. See the start of the season. When RB got the rear end of the car working again, Vettel never looked back.

Maybe Vettel will join Mercedes in the long haul. It is the perfect team to get some credit for getting it up to speed. Hamilton will try it next year. But I think he will not see the end of his contract there. Just like Perez, I think McLaren was too eager to sign him. Perhaps they will swap again.


Since Vettel is statistic driven, he will try
1) get the most of everything with the same team, or
2) to prove to the world it wasn't Newey.


#65 mnmracer

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 15:30

Since Vettel is statistic driven, he will try
1) get the most of everything with the same team, or
2) to prove to the world it wasn't Newey.

Two birds with one stone: see if he beat Stirling Moss' record for wins with most different constructors (5).
2 down, so, (in probable order): Lotus, McLaren, Mercedes, Ferrari?

#66 Ali_G

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 16:43

Very unlikely.

You may not want that to happen but I d say its 99% certain that he will get another title. I dont consider 1% as a big possibility but that s me.


Nothing with me not wanting to see it happen.

I just have this nagging feeling at the back of my head that the RBR dominance of the last 3 years is coming to an end and that RBR could end up as maybe 2nd or even 3rd fastest car on the grid next year. Add in the other talent on the grid and it's hard to see how Vettel is going to get 7 WDC by the end of his career.

Not winning another might be a bit of an exageration but I don't think 7 looks probable at all.




#67 Afterburner

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:15

I just have this nagging feeling at the back of my head that the RBR dominance of the last 3 years is coming to an end and that RBR could end up as maybe 2nd or even 3rd fastest car on the grid next year.

I had that feeling at the start of this year, but it's obvious now that I was wrong. :lol:

I think it's way too early to tell if he'll make it to seven. If he had just won his fifth WDC, then maybe I'd be asking this question, but on only his third? Why is it that every time a driver wins two or more championships nowadays they're suddenly being tipped to beat Schumi's records? Did comparisons to Fangio's record happen as often as this?

Time will tell. Ask me in another four years or so and maybe I'll give you an answer.

#68 Wander

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:28

I agree with those who says that he has a good chance of making it four next year. Things could easily change after that, however, with the big change in regulations. It is very much possible for him to get seven titles or more, but he isn't even half way there yet. Impossible to predict, but my guess is that he will win two more at the very least unless he gets badly injured or something.

#69 KavB

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 18:56

It depends on when he decides to retire. If he races until he is 37 like Schumi (First career) then I can see him winning 4 titles in 12 years. But who knows, he may get bored from winning so much that he decides to retire early. Or maybe he'll do 9 in a row like Loeb?

I can see him winning as many titles as Schumacher, but perhaps not his win record. To reach that record, Vettel would need a few more dominant seasons like 2011, or to win around 8 to 9 races per season in the not so dominant years.

Of course, he may stall his career by something unforeseen like Alonso's McLaren saga. Alonso was predicted to break Schumacher's records but he hasn't won a title since 06! He took himself out of contention for two seasons by going back to Renault. It can be argued that if the McLaren marriage was successful, he may have many more titles than he does now.

#70 joshb

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 19:07

Can't see it. There's too many good drivers around. And there may also be some demon coming through the lower ranks.
Would be nice if he could get near it though

#71 wepmob2000

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 19:24

Sadly I think its entirely possible he will take 7 or more WDC's, as long as he stays with a team that can give him a reasonably dominant car and a compliant team-mate. If he doesn't have access to the fastest car at least for a part of a season (like Alonso doesn't), then he won't achieve this. I don't see him as a driver who can out-perform his car like Alonso and Hamilton can. In fact, in a scenario like 2008, where the Ferrari was the best car, Vettel would not be able to emulate Hamilton's achievements (too much actual close racing to be done).

To put it another way, so long as Seb doesn't begin believing all the ridiculous hype and putting himself in the same category as Clark, Stewart, Senna, or Schumacher, he should be OK. He's shown he can get the job done in a superior car, but he won't break any records if he believes he's good enough to out perform the car and makes a stupid Hamilton-esque move to a lesser team.

However I can't see any immediate challenges to Red Bull's aero supremacy, people talk like the 2014 rules will change everything, the Red Bull is already one of the slowest cars through the speed traps...

Edited by wepmob2000, 29 November 2012 - 19:37.


#72 choyothe

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 20:07

He might win 3, he might win 7. I doubt he wins 8 or more.

Voted 7. :p



#73 r4mses

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 20:24

Yeah, when Hamilton arrived and looked to set his first year the crown I was thinking - oke this guy is gonna break Schumacher's record. Now Vettel is already almost halfway there to 7, but nobody knows really. Vettel might have mindproblems when his car just isn't the best.


Unlike some guy who started his F1 career in a top team getting third in his first race, Vettel drove a Torro Rosso at the beginning. I guess if there's someone of the top rated drivers - VET, HAM, BUT, RAI, ALO - how might have "mindproblems" when the car is slow, is HAM. Afterall he's the only one who never had to drive a really slow car. Well, maybe that's why he went for Mercedes ;)

(HAM and MGP supporter - though I don't like the combination :/)

Edited by r4mses, 29 November 2012 - 20:25.


#74 redbarron

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 21:01

Vettel has to be favourite for next year with the regulations not changing a great deal. Hopefully 2014 will mix it up when aero isn't as important.

#75 Afterburner

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 21:21

Vettel has to be favourite for next year with the regulations not changing a great deal. Hopefully 2014 will mix it up when aero isn't as important.

Wouldn't agree, mate. RBR notwithstanding, McLaren's supposed to be coming on strong and Ferrari should have their wind tunnel issues sorted by then. No telling what will happen next year, in my opinion--but there will be plenty of threads for it when the time comes. This probably isn't one of them. :p

#76 schubacca

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 21:59

I think that questions remain with Vettel.

This despite being a 3X WDC.

That said, he could win 4 more WDCs...... moving to Ferrari at the right time may net him that :)

#77 LiJu914

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 22:03

Vettel has to be favourite for next year with the regulations not changing a great deal. Hopefully 2014 will mix it up when aero isn't as important.


I very much doubt, that this will be the case.

Edited by LiJu914, 29 November 2012 - 22:03.


#78 JonathanProc

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 23:10

Vettel has to be favourite for next year with the regulations not changing a great deal. Hopefully 2014 will mix it up when aero isn't as important.


Aero won't be any less important. The fact that engines and ERS will be even more important than before is what (I hope) will mix it up a bit.

#79 ayali

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 23:24

It all depends on if Vettel gets a decent car every season and that is the combination every driver wants. Yes he's won 3 WDC's but whats to say he'll have a challenger in every season? There could be a run where Button, Alonso, Hamilton etc win multiple titles, we just don't know what is around the corner.

LOL at captain obvious here :lol:

Think the OP is interested in your opinion not in platitudes.

Reminds me of Steve McClaren who when asked about the 2nd half of a game said:
"this is football, anything can happen"


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#80 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:56

Quite possibly!

Schumacher didn't have a B-team jumping out of the way and just had to rely on his teammate. Over the seasons, it will play it's part to lesser or greater degree.

And Schumi does not have a teammate that squeezed him into the first corner in the championship deciding race.

Having said that, I don't think Vettel will match Schumi's 7 titles.

#81 Raelene

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:55

I cabn't vote as I don't agree with any of the statements in the 2nd poll.

My vote in the first poll is he will fall short

#82 George Costanza

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:27

I think he will tie Fangio, but fall short of Schumi.

I also like Alonso will be a 4 time WDC.

#83 George Costanza

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:29

Then again, to play the "what if" factor, Michael would have been a 10 or 11 time World Champion if he got it all right....



#84 tifosiMac

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:00

Vettel certainly has the talent to convert what he is given into championships, but I think another 4 titles is slim. I think he will end up with 4 or 5, and the likes of Hamilton and Alonso similar. No team remains at the top forever and its down to the driver and his management to make the leap at the right time and hope the team they go to has the edge. When Newey moves on to his next challenge Vettel may likely go to Ferrari who are consistent but lacking in development right now. They are still a new team in terms of personel after the big clear out a couple of season's ago and I think they will hit the sweet spot sooner or later. It'll be either Alonso or Vettel who takes advantage of that IMO.

#85 sailor

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:37

That's a ridiculous assessment. Things in F1 can change very quickly, of course he probably is quite likely to win another title, but not 99%?!

EDIT:



A 30% chance?! I really think you need to re-assess how you think about probabilities. If you think both of the above are the case I'd go down to your local bookies and put on a few bets, as the odds they lay will be way in excess of your estimates, making it a profitable bet for you.



Ok - maybe 1% was a bit OTT but to me its a no brainer that Vettel will at leat win another one.

Considering that next year is simply an extension of this year (no reg changes) - Vettel has got to be the favorite to win 2013 at the very least.

Macca will have the fastest car as they are at the moment ( - although Newey can still improve this car a bit more to match the Maccas) but crucially they wont have Hamilton . Button has shown that even with the faster car he cant take on Vettel in Q3. Perez also is poor in Quali and got beat by Koba regularly. So Macca have taken themselves out of the pic.

Ferrari - Given the comedy of wind tunnel and updates that didn't work (or suit Alonso) I have very little doubt that they will be a non-factor especially as Massa will be on Alonsos back if last 3 races are any indication.
Dont go by 2012 , it was massively lucky that Alonso was anywhere near the title shot as it is , stars do not align 2 years in a row.
And worse if Massa starts pulling out Q3s like he is now , its a matter of time Alonso throws the toys out and this take the team down with him

Lotus - They are the only real threat if they have figured out Kimi and his style fully. If they can up their game in Quali - could potentially challenge Vettel.
Kimi should also be driving better as he has shown a good adapting curve as the season has panned.
But ultimately Lotus lack the wherewithal of RBR in terms of relentless development and will hit a wall.


Merc i s a big question mark but I rate Schumi and Rosberg enough to see that the car is really a dog. Ham may be even faster than Vettel but that Merc will pull him down. 2014 would be Hams year I reckon.


So I d be very surprised if Vettel doesnt win another titles when next year is looking so rosy.

Edit : Missed Webber - but I dont think he has it in him to beat Vettel over the season - The kid is just too adaptable and recovers from mistakes flawlessly under pressure that its very hard for an aged guy like Webber to match. Plus I reckon RBR would have had a word with him about his shenanigans in Brazil which may see a shift towards favoring Vettel.


Not sure how I came up with the number 30% but there is a non zero & significant chance of Vettel getting to the magic 7 - I just chose 30% at random though.

Edited by sailor, 30 November 2012 - 11:43.


#86 stuck-in-first-gear

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:38

First of all I hope that he will be able to race for another few seasons without any major accidents. These things can totally change the mindset of a youngster like Seb.

I say another title with Red Bull before moving to a different team like Ferrari or Merc for the icing on the cake :)

Should he really make it to 7 titles, I believe he would decide to retire and hang out with Michael to race karts :D

#87 CoolBreeze

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:43

Nope. Things change quickly in F1.

#88 SenorSjon

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:33

Since the '09 test ban there was no new kid on the block with 10k km's testing. With all the talents flying around, F1 has put a plug in place for potential WDC material. Some guys are fast, but they have more difficulty setting up a car because they used to test every option and so a driver learns what a certain option does.

#89 joshb

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 17:13

Since the '09 test ban there was no new kid on the block with 10k km's testing. With all the talents flying around, F1 has put a plug in place for potential WDC material. Some guys are fast, but they have more difficulty setting up a car because they used to test every option and so a driver learns what a certain option does.


Yes, Vettel, Hamilton, Kubica were the last of the testing generation to come through. It's no surprise these 3 were the last 3 new mega talent to come through.
Though perhaps someone like Hulkenberg could be the first of the 'testing ban generation' to really join the 'big 3' or whatever.

#90 mnmracer

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 22:37

First of all I hope that he will be able to race for another few seasons without any major accidents. These things can totally change the mindset of a youngster like Seb.

Vettel's already had his major accident in 2006, when he nearly lost his finger in eau rouge in Formula Renault 3.5
He was back in the car almost immediately and winning races a few weeks later.

#91 scheivlak

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 22:45

I cabn't vote as I don't agree with any of the statements in the 2nd poll.

Yep, and I can't find my answer in the 1st poll either ("I don't know")

#92 sailor

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:02

Yes, Vettel, Hamilton, Kubica were the last of the testing generation to come through. It's no surprise these 3 were the last 3 new mega talent to come through.
Though perhaps someone like Hulkenberg could be the first of the 'testing ban generation' to really join the 'big 3' or whatever.


Its an interesting off topc about new talent not coming through enough.

In addition to test ban, the problem is over reliance on pay drivers... Look at the situation now FI , Sauner and even Lotus are simply keeping the second seat reserved for pay drivers..

If that is the case up n down the paddock then there is a significant chance of a young Vettel or a Hamilton dropping by the wayside without even getting a young driver test.

FIa need to start focussing on the talent pipeline drying up

#93 SpaMaster

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 13:30

It's still a long way off..

#94 P123

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 13:33

He will at least equal the 7 of Schumacher, so long as he stays with Red Bull and Newey.

#95 Lelouch

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 00:30

I think his chances increased after the announcement about the 2014 regulations. It will be a bit easier for Red Bull to remain at the top i guess.

#96 Watkins74

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 00:43

It's a tough question, he is only 25 and he already has 3. With driver's starting so young now and being in outstanding shape they have the potential to race for a long, long time. The question is if these young drivers will race until their almost 40 or will they be mentally burned out and retire relatively young? Vettel has already done 5 full seasons as a full-time driver and you have to wonder how many years the Vettel's and Hamilton's who got into the sport so young will want to travel the world especially with their bank accounts.

I have a great appreciation for Vettel's talent and personality but personally I would be happy if he didn't win another WDC in the next couple of years just for some variety. Although I wouldn't be surprised at all if he makes it 4 in a row.

The only thing I know for sure is that I will be watching. :cool:

Edited by Watkins74, 06 December 2012 - 00:55.


#97 sailor

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 11:59

Murray Walker seems to think so :)
http://www.crash.net...is_records.html



#98 Tract1on

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:13

I dont think he will get to 7.
Maybe 5....
You would think his performance level may drop off when he gets to say 30 and lots of younger guys established.


#99 Nobody

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 13:25

Couldn't vote because of the second question but the answer would be:

fall short
No - not good enough to win 7

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#100 noikeee

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 14:29

He's in the best position for doing it than any driver's ever been. Has won 3 titles at this age, contracted to the best team and constantly rumoured to be moving to another of the top teams. That's one hell of a position to be in and with one hell of a headstart.

That being said I don't think he'll do it because there's FOUR titles remaining. That is one heck of a lot, that's as many as Prost won and he was at the top for a decade. We've been here debating this a lot of times before with many drivers. Hamilton was going to clean out F1's records by now, Alonso was going to bag many titles being the youngest ever champion, Raikkonen was at a top team younger and less experienced than anyone ever, Montoya was the big thing to replace MS, J. Villeneuve was the big thing to replace MS before all of them. Didn't happen for any of them. Vettel's got a lot of talented competitors to worry about too.

If I had to guess a number I'd say Vettel will retire with 5 or 6, but this is hardly a scientific estimate.