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Raceway garage Bronx NYC - open wheel Ferrari


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#1 mcwidow70

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:11

I found an interesting picture showing a Ferrari towed by a 1953-54 Studebacker Coupè in front of the Raceway garage Bronx NYC.

http://www.memaerobi...com/raceway.asp

QUOTE This is Dad's new Studebaker coupe getting ready to tow an open wheel Ferrari (from The Bronx) "down to Texas for Mexican road race" I guess someone was going to pick it up in Texas and deliver it the rest of the way.UNQUOTE


The garage was managed by Joe Gertler who was sometimes contracted by Luigi Chinetti on the 50s.

In my opinion the Ferrari is a modified 375 Indy: I ignore the chassis number even if the Ascari's official single seater could be excluded since, according official report, it went beack to factory. (refer also to 0388 history)

The year could be the 1954 and this assumption is based on the following:
-Studebaker model
-reference made to Mexican Road race (Carrera Panamerica - last raced edition is 1954)
-side tanks looks like Lancia D50's one, that was designed only on 1953

Of course the car was never entered on the mentioned race, even if some secondary events could not be excluded

Can anyone add more details on this car (i.e. chassis, owner)?

Gianpaolo

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#2 arttidesco

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:55

Started as 375 01 renumbered 0388 according to these links. No record of this car racing in Mexico.... so far  ;)

#3 mcwidow70

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:48

Started as 375 01 renumbered 0388 according to these links. No record of this car racing in Mexico.... so far ;)


The 375 01 was modified by Ferrari itselfs: Gilco produce a new chassis 0388 and Ferrari tested a new engine. The plan was to get a new car for Indy 500 miles but the project was not followed up.
Chinetti bougth it and it was showed during NYC Auto Show (feb 1954)
http://www.velocetod...at-indy-part-2/
here entered at Indy 1954 DNQ (additionsl cooler on the left and fuel tank on the right)

The Ferrari in front of the Raceway garage is different and the side tanks seems less cared

#4 David McKinney

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:50

It did run at Daytona Beach - near enough to Mexico for a New Yorker?

#5 arttidesco

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 15:31

It did run at Daytona Beach - near enough to Mexico for a New Yorker?


Are we still talking about 01/0388 and would that have been a record attempt, race or demonstration David, any idea of the date ?

#6 mcwidow70

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 16:36

It did run at Daytona Beach - near enough to Mexico for a New Yorker?

Only sure entry for Daytona speed race is Bobby Said 1955

http://www.gettyimag...photo/148162221

It is the 0388 but it is different from Raceway Ferrari

#7 David McKinney

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 19:00

Looks the same to me - what makes you say it's different?

#8 Rob G

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 19:46

The car in the second photo that the Studebaker is a Ford Thunderbird, which was sold beginning in October 1954. This T-bird has a Continental spare tire, which was an option for 1956 but not '55. It's possible that it was an aftermarket item, but I don't know how likely it would be for one to appear immediately after the car was introduced, so I'd guess this picture was more likely taken in 1955.

#9 arttidesco

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 22:45

Posted Image

Posted Image

Both images copyright Joe Gertler Snr published for the benefit of identifying the Ferarri only will be removed immediately upon request.

I've taken the liberty of enlarging the images and the additional side tank certainly looks right for 0388 even though it is unpainted.

#10 Sebastian Tombs

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 00:16

What I found more interesting is the references to carrying out work on Campbells Blue Bird. That must have been during the Daytona attempts but I have never seen any illustrations showing Blue Bird with fared-in wheels. The work looks pretty crude and certainly hardly enhances Railton's carefully thought-out lines. I have no idea if it ever ran with these additions on any test but it surely didn't make any record attempt so fitted. Just as well, in the light of Rosemeyer's accident later and the reasons now put forward, ie panel flexing and lift. Anyone else got any info on this Campbell work in The Bronx?

ST :wave:

#11 mcwidow70

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:01

Looks the same to me - what makes you say it's different?


The side appendices look pretty crude (as Sebastian said) and also higher than the ones showed in Daytona beach picture (even higher than tyres).

The car after Dyatona was modified again; it re-appeared on 1956 without left appendix and with a re-shaped cooler on the right.

http://www.autoblog....es-classes-and/


see also 1956 Breakneck Hill Climb results and photo on

http://ferrariexpert...ts 1956.htm#HAV


Assuming that dating (1955 or later) is correct it could be a preliminary crude conversion between Daytona 1955 and 1956 Shelby's hillclimbs.


Herewith below first images of the 0388 in US at CARLIFE stand during feb 1954 NYC auto show: for this reason this car is also known as the Carlife Ferrari

Posted Image

copywright CARLIFE





#12 mcwidow70

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:01

Looks the same to me - what makes you say it's different?


The side appendices look pretty crude (as Sebastian said) and also higher than the ones showed in Daytona beach picture (even higher than tyres).

The car after Dyatona was modified again; it re-appeared on 1956 without left appendix and with a re-shaped cooler on the right.

http://www.autoblog....es-classes-and/


see also 1956 Breakneck Hill Climb results and photo on

http://ferrariexpert...ts 1956.htm#HAV


Assuming that dating (1955 or later) is correct it could be a preliminary crude conversion between Daytona 1955 and 1956 Shelby's hillclimbs.


Herewith below first images of the 0388 in US at CARLIFE stand during feb 1954 NYC auto show: for this reason this car is also known as the Carlife Ferrari

Posted Image

copywright CARLIFE





#13 arttidesco

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:34

The cowling on the car at Breakneck certainly looks shorter, appears to start much further behind the front wheel than the one on the back of the trailer, however looking carefully at the Breakneck photo it appears both are patched in to the original body work at a similar height.

Edited by arttidesco, 03 December 2012 - 15:10.


#14 f1steveuk

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 13:14

I've previously posted this

Posted Image

of the car modified and painted. It can't have ever run in this form as R39, the engine sold with the car, had been stripped of it's internals, to form a dummy engine. Normal practice, was to also remove the engine plate, but as it was promised, the car was only for display, it's was left in situ. That there's a claim it was modified, and then took a record is frankly, laughable, which would make me wonder if that is a Ferrari at all!!

#15 Sebastian Tombs

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 14:54

Ah, thx f1steveuk, missed that. As for the accuracy of any of the info on that site I'd say it was 'questionable' bordering on the total bollocks :rolleyes:

ST :wave:

#16 f1steveuk

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 16:58

Ah, thx f1steveuk, missed that. As for the accuracy of any of the info on that site I'd say it was 'questionable' bordering on the total bollocks :rolleyes:

ST :wave:


I was going down that route of doubt!!!! These mod's were carried out years after Donald Campbell had brought the car from his father's estate, and after he had sold/part exchanged the car for the mechanicals and engines from Blue Bird K3, which Malcolm had sold to John Simpson. I think I was wrong, I think the engine that finally went with the 1935 car for display was R19, as Donald used R39 right up until he sank his father's K4. Still, the '35 car never ran again after it's demo run at Brooklands after the 1935, 301 record.

So I fail to see what record the car would have set according to that website!!

#17 cabianca

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 17:06

Are we still talking about 01/0388 and would that have been a record attempt, race or demonstration David, any idea of the date ?

Here's the Daytona run and the date. Cars ran top speed trials on the beach itself. Usually used as promo by US auto manufacturers. Part of the hoopla leading up to the Daytona 500. Ferrari Classiche claims this car is not the Ascari car from 1952 Indy but a car built from scratch to take the supercharged V-12 that was never used. My contention would be that it is the Ascari car, modified to bring it into more contemporary styling. The fact that there is no record of the Ascari Indy car reappearing anywhere is part of my theory. The restyled version of the car ran in the Monza 500 in 1958 with Schell driving. Chinetti owned it throughout the 1950s and I don't believe he would have spent the money to have a scratch-built car done for one race, the Indy 500 when he could have modified the Ascari car which he already owned.
http://www.gettyimag...photo/148162221



#18 cabianca

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 17:07

Are we still talking about 01/0388 and would that have been a record attempt, race or demonstration David, any idea of the date ?

Here's the Daytona run and the date. Cars ran top speed trials on the beach itself. Usually used as promo by US auto manufacturers. Part of the hoopla leading up to the Daytona 500. Ferrari Classiche claims this car is not the Ascari car from 1952 Indy but a car built from scratch to take the supercharged V-12 that was never used. My contention would be that it is the Ascari car, modified to bring it into more contemporary styling. The fact that there is no record of the Ascari Indy car reappearing anywhere is part of my theory. The restyled version of the car ran in the Monza 500 in 1958 with Schell driving. Chinetti owned it throughout the 1950s and I don't believe he would have spent the money to have a scratch-built car done for one race, the Indy 500 when he could have modified the Ascari car which he already owned.
http://www.gettyimag...photo/148162221



#19 mcwidow70

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 20:31

I found an interesting picture showing a Ferrari towed by a 1953-54 Studebacker Coupè in front of the Raceway garage Bronx NYC.

http://www.memaerobi...com/raceway.asp

QUOTE This is Dad's new Studebaker coupe getting ready to tow an open wheel Ferrari (from The Bronx) "down to Texas for Mexican road race" I guess someone was going to pick it up in Texas and deliver it the rest of the way.UNQUOTE


The garage was managed by Joe Gertler who was sometimes contracted by Luigi Chinetti on the 50s.

In my opinion the Ferrari is a modified 375 Indy: I ignore the chassis number even if the Ascari's official single seater could be excluded since, according official report, it went beack to factory. (refer also to 0388 history)

The year could be the 1954 and this assumption is based on the following:
-Studebaker model
-reference made to Mexican Road race (Carrera Panamerica - last raced edition is 1954)
-side tanks looks like Lancia D50's one, that was designed only on 1953

Of course the car was never entered on the mentioned race, even if some secondary events could not be excluded

Can anyone add more details on this car (i.e. chassis, owner)?

Gianpaolo


http://www.forix.com...polis-1952.html

a couple of nice pictures of 0388 during indy 1954 trail

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#20 mcwidow70

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 17:15

Only sure entry for Daytona speed race is Bobby Said 1955

http://www.gettyimag...photo/148162221

It is the 0388 but it is different from Raceway Ferrari

Daytona speed week 1956 - Bill Holland

http://www.gettyimag...onaca/150190298

http://news.google.c...pg=7351,3453094

0388i on 1956 configuration (without rigth side appendix) with a strange front nose

#21 mcwidow70

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 15:21

I was going down that route of doubt!!!! These mod's were carried out years after Donald Campbell had brought the car from his father's estate, and after he had sold/part exchanged the car for the mechanicals and engines from Blue Bird K3, which Malcolm had sold to John Simpson. I think I was wrong, I think the engine that finally went with the 1935 car for display was R19, as Donald used R39 right up until he sank his father's K4. Still, the '35 car never ran again after it's demo run at Brooklands after the 1935, 301 record.

So I fail to see what record the car would have set according to that website!!


Posted on behalf of Joe Gertler Jr.

I have a good group of Original untouched large negatives, of private, unpublished, photos (taken by my father during his work on The Bluebird) showing the full (open-wheeled) car, being delivered to Raceway Garage, on St. Raymond Ave, Bronx, in 1951-52, for my father to modify it, (for the PURPOSE of a NEW record attempt that was planned, when delivered) and Numerous original negatives clearly showing the modifications, in progress. As Original large negatives, the small details of The Bluebird, are so clear that one can easily read the cockpit instruments, and there are several photos showing different angles and details of the engine in the car, at that time.

Here is the Original 1952 report on the New record attempt, the modifications to body and engine, and other information. This information is at odds with the assumptions above.

.


Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by mcwidow70, 14 January 2013 - 15:24.


#22 Tim Murray

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 16:01

Posted on behalf of Joe Gertler Jr.

I have a good group of Original untouched large negatives, of private, unpublished, photos (taken by my father during his work on The Bluebird) showing the full (open-wheeled) car, being delivered to Raceway Garage, on St. Raymond Ave, Bronx, in 1951-52, for my father to modify it, (for the PURPOSE of a NEW record attempt that was planned, when delivered)

This rather conflicts with the info on Mr Gertler's website (see the link in post 1):

Malcolm Campbell’s famous (first car to go 300 mph) BLUEBIRD. Car had just failed to set a NEW record. (You had to go at least 3 mph faster than old record and it only went ONE mph faster) so they brought it to Dad to fair in the big open wheels. Dad did and it set the next record.



#23 f1steveuk

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 17:04

This rather conflicts with the info on Mr Gertler's website (see the link in post 1):

JATOs??!!! Blimey, still, Blue Bird never ran like that, I wonder if they knew there was nothing inside R19. They only built 22 (possibly24) R Type engines, and there was one, just one, unique tool kit, which after Donald Campbell had started work on the jet engined Bluebird K7, he returned the tool kit to G E T Eyston, and hasn't been seen since. That was 1953. I have seen quite a few pictures of those body mod's (I wonder how you were supposed to steer it?), but I know, 100%, Blue Bird never ran after Sir Malcolm died.