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Vettel's speed


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#1 PretentiousBread

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 20:50

What I would like to discuss is a recent quote of his which I think is a fundamental factor in great success the past couple of years:

"Since the start, we were fighting with a car that wasn't similar to last year's. I couldn't use my tricks or my style to make it work. I didn't have enough rear stability to get the car into the corners, to the apex, the way I like. We did a step that was big enough and in the right direction that allowed me to do more of what I like"


I see a correlation between the performance of the Red Bull, and Vettel's own performance vs Webber. The tendency has been that when the car is average/normal, they are quite closely matched, albeit with Vettel having a definite edge, but as soon as Red Bull get exploiting the exhausts, shifting the balance more rearwards with the car, Vettel is able to exploit it, and Webber struggles.

This article was written by Mark Hughes following the Chinese GP, after Webber outqualified Vettel on three successive attempts, hitherto almost unheard of. Here's the key bit:

What Vettel was exceptionally good at last year was using a little bit of oversteer in the initial part of a slow turn to help get the car pointed at the apex sooner - but the rear of the car needs to recover its grip quickly for that initial oversteer not to have too much momentum, building into a slide that costs time. The blown diffuser car was perfect for that, and as the car had that initial twitch of oversteer Seb would then stand on the throttle - giving the rear end even more exhaust-enhanced grip than when off-throttle - and the oversteer would vanish. In this way, Seb could get pointed early at the apex and be early on the power. It demanded a lot of sensitivity for the balancing point of the rear tyre.

Furthermore, in the way you had to use the engine revs to get the correct balance between on-throttle and off-throttle grip at the appropriate part of the corner, it was counter-intuitive. It was certainly something that Webber could never get his head properly around. It also felt very unnatural to be considering applying more throttle to reduce oversteer.

This year's car, although currently less competitive, is much more conventional in how it needs to be driven in the slow corners - and suddenly Webber can drive it better. There can occasionally be a disconnect between how a car feels to a driver and how quick it is - and last year's RB7 was that car for Webber. He didn't care for its feel - that slow corner pat head/rub tummy combination really didn't suit him - but it was fantastically fast, something that Vettel could show more convincingly than him. There is an echo of that disconnect this year in how Webber and Vettel respectively have reacted to the development of the RB8.


http://www1.skysport...ed-Bull-dilemma


More insight from Mark Webber here:




The reason I find all this interesting is because Vettel's stunning speed in qualifying, often putting huge margins on Webber - a known qualifying specialist from his Jaguar/Williams days - is, I believe, as much a result of Webber underperforming a dominant car as anything else, often giving the illusion that Vettel has put stuck a merely competitive car on pole by dint of him being a driving God. I know this won't sit well with most Vettel fans, and i'll duly get flamed for it, (and that's fine, it's a sensitive topic for some) but things like telemetry data don't lie, and there have been numerous examples of how Red Bull is able to carry sometimes incomparable amounts of speed through fast corners than anyone else, or opening its DRS in places no one else can (according to James Allen something in the region of 15kph more through turns 10/11 at India, being just one example).

The fallacy I see in the logic of many is that the RB7/RB8 couldn't be a dominant car because it's only ever one guy on pole, and the other guy often doesn't make the front row - yet you don't need both drivers dominating to know when someone is in a dominant car. Just look at Mansell/Patrese in 1992 to know what i'm talking about. The RB8 obviously hasn't been as consistently brilliant as the RB7, but make no mistake, when it was dominant, it was dominant.

To conclude, my position is that Vettel is a quicker, cleverer, and simply better driver in almost all departments than Webber, but that the difference generally only becomes really pronounced when EBD/coanda exhausts are brought into the equation, and that this has exaggerated his level of performance, for many are taking Webber's level as a constant, which it is not. How much of it is Vettel's own genius, and how much of it is Webber's own failings is hard to determine. But what's key for me is that my view tallies with what Vettel and Webber have said themselves.

What are your views? Discuss...

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#2 joshb

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 20:58

its your opinion at the end of the day.
This year was the closest its been at 11-9 and even when the car was good, Webber beat him at Abu Dhabi, Korea and Brazil and nearly India- Brazil aside, Seb has tended to go well round those tracks and Webber less so. Abu Dhabi was a shock.
He probably needs a stable rear end as I think a well balanced but slow car he can hook it up well, see 2009 and 2008. A fast but twitchy rear end and he seems less able to have the same confidence that the car will stick.
See his laps in China and Monaco, very timid, very hesitant to get on power and turning the wrong way into corners as he's anticipating a slide.
Remember though the RB carries good corner speed but by the end of straights, it's behind the others due to its draggy setup.

But there's no doubt he's in the top 2 or 3 best and most consistant qualifiers i've watched in F1 in 15 years. And one just outside that bracket is sat in the same car- a bloke he's beat 70% in qualy.

#3 Peter Perfect

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:02

I think if there's one thing that's frequently mentioned whenever Vettel is discussed it's his sheer dedication behind the scenes. In terms of pure driving ability there may not be a huge gulf between them but my impression is that he maximises every advantage he can to extract every bit of performance out of the driver/car package.

#4 WonderboyF1

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:02

Cant believe he said he couldnt use any of his 'tricks' what is this a videogame? Im annoyed that this season FIA set out to eliminate blown diffuser, yet ultimately Red Bull were able to find there advantage once again with the exhaust and take the title. Is there anymore advancment next year in seeking to well and truly get rid of these exhaust loopholes?

Edited by WonderboyF1, 02 December 2012 - 21:04.


#5 sopa

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:05

This is the case about every driver. They all like the car in certain ways and if the car doesn't respond to their preferences, they can underperform. Hamilton was outraced by Button in the second half of 2011. Alonso by Massa in several races in the end of 2012. Schumacher was outqualified by Barrichello in mid-2002 and mid-2003 a lot. Hakkinen was beaten by Coulthard in mid-2000. And so on.

#6 mnmracer

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:14

Especially China gave me the idea that Vettel, knowing what would make the Red Bull fastest, simply does not give up on trying to find a way to get it to work.
Vettel's impressed with grooved tyres and with slicks, with and without EBD, with and without KERS, refueling, DRS, etc. etc.
So to assume Vettel's speed only lies in EBD is ignoring the previous.

#7 Group B

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:23

This is the case about every driver. They all like the car in certain ways and if the car doesn't respond to their preferences, they can underperform. Hamilton was outraced by Button in the second half of 2011. Alonso by Massa in several races in the end of 2012. Schumacher was outqualified by Barrichello in mid-2002 and mid-2003 a lot. Hakkinen was beaten by Coulthard in mid-2000. And so on.

:up:
Exactly. It's no different to saying that the McLaren is a dominant car when on pole, because Hamilton has found it to his liking and best exploited it's qualities while Button hasn't. An interesting read on SV's driving style, but ultimately a fail as an attempt to undermine Vettel's performances.

#8 Cenotaph

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:35

It's just the driving style he prefers and there's nothing wrong with that. I personally think that Webber benefits from those changes as well quite clearly, maybe not in comparison with his teammate but certainly in a general sense.

#9 Rikhart

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:40

This is the case about every driver. They all like the car in certain ways and if the car doesn't respond to their preferences, they can underperform. Hamilton was outraced by Button in the second half of 2011. Alonso by Massa in several races in the end of 2012. Schumacher was outqualified by Barrichello in mid-2002 and mid-2003 a lot. Hakkinen was beaten by Coulthard in mid-2000. And so on.


Yep :)

#10 Snic

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:43

I think if there's one thing that's frequently mentioned whenever Vettel is discussed it's his sheer dedication behind the scenes. In terms of pure driving ability there may not be a huge gulf between them but my impression is that he maximises every advantage he can to extract every bit of performance out of the driver/car package.


Indeed, didn't Horner say that Vettel watches the other drivers onboard laps at the end of the day to try and improve his own lines. I think that's probably quite a rare thing in the World of F1.

#11 whitevisor

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:49

They all do that.

#12 Boxerevo

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:53

by dint of him being a driving God.

"Infidel"! There is only one,the true TDG. :lol:

Now seriously,the only thing that matters is that Vettel knows what he needs to be super fast.

He knows what he needs and Red Bull goes there and do a great job.

So congratulations for both doing superb job.





#13 EvanRainer

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:55

The reason I find all this interesting is because Vettel's stunning speed in qualifying, often putting huge margins on Webber - a known qualifying specialist from his Jaguar/Williams days - is, I believe, as much a result of Webber underperforming a dominant car as anything else, often giving the illusion that Vettel has put stuck a merely competitive car on pole by dint of him being a driving God. I know this won't sit well with most Vettel fans, and i'll duly get flamed for it


There is no reason to get flamed but if you want to make sure you don't please avoid making things up. No one has claimed Vettel is a driving god.


#14 EvanRainer

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 22:01

On the matter of the speed, usually when you see big margins in quaifying over a teamate and the rest of the field and dominant performances it means you have a perfect storm of an amazing driver coupled with an amazing car that fits him perfectly. Hence, the amazing results.

#15 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 22:09

:up:
Exactly. It's no different to saying that the McLaren is a dominant car when on pole, because Hamilton has found it to his liking and best exploited it's qualities while Button hasn't. An interesting read on SV's driving style, but ultimately a fail as an attempt to undermine Vettel's performances.


Are you serious? Absolutely absurd for you to say it was an attempt to "undermine Vettel's performances". Pure bullshit. It's like if anyone says anything that isn't lavish praise on the guy, they're trying to undermine his performances. :rolleyes:

If you would have taken a moment to actually read, you would know why the article was written.

Mark Webber's qualifying advantage over Sebastian Vettel in the opening two races played a significant part in Vettel's decision to revert to the original-spec RB8 for China.

Most of the article was about why Seb chose to run a completely different specification(exhaust) than Webber. And why. Your assertion is preposterous.

Heck the article even ends with this, which is far from trying to diminish Seb and brings up his domination of Webber in 2011.

Vettel is way too good not to come back from this - but it's a situation that has cast further illumination on how he achieved his dominance of last year and why Webber struggled.

Me, I'm really into the tech side of F1 and I don't do the fanboy crap. I'm one of the more objective posters on this BB and I certainly give credit where it's due regardless of the driver. But the sensitivity in which some fans act regarding their driver is over the top. Hughes was clearly not bashing Seb and explaining his driving style which many people didn't know about until he wrote this article. Yes at the time Vettel was struggling a little bit, as was the team to figure out the right development path. Seb had just missed Q3 and Mark didn't so of course it was going to draw the attention of people that write about the sport. Mark doing better in Quali is a story, just like when Felipe does better than Fernando, or when Jenson does better than Lewis. This certainly isn't a case of what you claimed it to be.

#16 PorcupineTroy

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 22:11

Vettel definitely seems to work the exhaust-blown diffuser better than Webber: just compare 2011 to 2010 or the first third of 2012. There have been times, such as in Valencia this year or Australia last year where Vettel is far quicker than anybody else, but Webber is struggling to score a podium. I can't really think of any cases (maybe Monaco 2012?) where Webber blasted off into the distance and Vettel wasn't even top 3 material.

#17 choyothe

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:39

The reason I find all this interesting is because Vettel's stunning speed in qualifying, often putting huge margins on Webber - a known qualifying specialist from his Jaguar/Williams days - is, I believe, as much a result of Webber underperforming a dominant car as anything else, often giving the illusion that Vettel has put stuck a merely competitive car on pole by dint of him being a driving God.


The irony is strong in this one.





#18 bourbon

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:50

Are you serious? Absolutely absurd for you to say it was an attempt to "undermine Vettel's performances". Pure bullshit. It's like if anyone says anything that isn't lavish praise on the guy, they're trying to undermine his performances. :rolleyes: If you would have taken a moment to actually read, you would know why the article was written.

The article was merely used as the basis for the OP's opinion, which was normalizing Vettel's qualifying performance, while insulting the intelligence of Vettel fans.

What I would like to discuss is a recent quote of his which I think is a fundamental factor in great success the past couple of years: -Snip-

I see a correlation between the performance of the Red Bull, and Vettel's own performance vs Webber. The tendency has been that when the car is average/normal, they are quite closely matched, albeit with Vettel having a definite edge, but as soon as Red Bull get exploiting the exhausts, shifting the balance more rearwards with the car, Vettel is able to exploit it, and Webber struggles. -Snip-

[b]The reason I find all this interesting is because Vettel's stunning speed in qualifying, often putting huge margins on Webber - a known qualifying specialist from his Jaguar/Williams days - is, I believe, as much a result of Webber underperforming a dominant car as anything else, often giving the illusion that Vettel has put stuck a merely competitive car on pole by dint of him being a driving God. I know this won't sit well with most Vettel fans, and i'll duly get flamed for it, (and that's fine, it's a sensitive topic for some)b]

But Vettel fans are being confused with fans of others. We do not call Vettel TDG or Samurai - which is fine for folk to say if they like, but, just saying. The collective and individual intelligence of Vettel fans is called into question, as if we do not reccognize that all drivers have varied performance depending on how they get on with the car in any given session. And as if we had no idea that the closer the car is to meeting a driver's preferences, including Vettel's, the better the potential for a good qually result. Naturally Vettel does best when the car is just how he likes it - like all drivers. But he has also shown prowess when the car isn't too his liking on occassion - just like all drivers. And on the whole he does worse when it isn't to his liking - like all drivers.

Meaning, the point of the OP's post, like it or not, is that Vettel fans believe him a "driving God", unaffected by the average machine Newey and company have provided - and those fans are deluded (and since there is no qualification on who "some fans" might be, we are all invited to take it personally). But there is scant evidence of this on the forum. Everyone goes over the top here and there, but not even a small group of 2 regularly refers to Vettel as the Qualifying Gladiator of the Garage or anything, so the statement, as presented, comes across as a bit insulting.

That said, Seb/RB8 qualifying package is one of the best in the business - I think it would be hard to deny that.

Edited by bourbon, 03 December 2012 - 00:28.


#19 DanardiF1

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 23:58

its your opinion at the end of the day.
This year was the closest its been at 11-9 and even when the car was good, Webber beat him at Abu Dhabi, Korea and Brazil and nearly India- Brazil aside, Seb has tended to go well round those tracks and Webber less so. Abu Dhabi was a shock.
He probably needs a stable rear end as I think a well balanced but slow car he can hook it up well, see 2009 and 2008. A fast but twitchy rear end and he seems less able to have the same confidence that the car will stick.
See his laps in China and Monaco, very timid, very hesitant to get on power and turning the wrong way into corners as he's anticipating a slide.
Remember though the RB carries good corner speed but by the end of straights, it's behind the others due to its draggy setup.

But there's no doubt he's in the top 2 or 3 best and most consistant qualifiers i've watched in F1 in 15 years. And one just outside that bracket is sat in the same car- a bloke he's beat 70% in qualy.


Actually, you could say that Vettel only truly 'came good' that year once Red Bull brought in their (albeit compromised) version of the double diffuser, another 'device' that aides rear stability. The first version of that diffuser appeared in Monaco (a race RBR and Vettel were poor at because they couldn't get the tyres to work), and look who was on pole the next race in Turkey... Vettel with a 3 tenth gap to Webber in 4th. The next race at Silverstone, no-one could touch the RB5's with their latest updates, with Vettel again revelling in the speed of the car.

Red Bull understand what Vettel likes, and it's something they've mastered in building into their cars.

Edited by DanardiF1, 02 December 2012 - 23:59.


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#20 mnmracer

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 00:19

Actually, you could say that Vettel only truly 'came good' that year once Red Bull brought in their (albeit compromised) version of the double diffuser, another 'device' that aides rear stability. The first version of that diffuser appeared in Monaco (a race RBR and Vettel were poor at because they couldn't get the tyres to work), and look who was on pole the next race in Turkey... Vettel with a 3 tenth gap to Webber in 4th. The next race at Silverstone, no-one could touch the RB5's with their latest updates, with Vettel again revelling in the speed of the car.

Red Bull understand what Vettel likes, and it's something they've mastered in building into their cars.

And that is the only possible explanantion?
I could have nothing to do with the fact he was a 22 year old still learning?

#21 Higli

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 00:21

Well, if having a not perfectly fit car for Vettel means winning the WDC by a small margin and thus giving us fans a thrilling season, then this may happen every year.

I like Vettel, but in 2011 he was too dominant. He may win another 10 WDCs, but please in 2007/2008/2010/2012 style. :D

Don't know if it is important for his speed, but I see some typical german characteristics in him: Of the three top contenders, he is the one who never takes his girlfriend to a race (ok, Brazil 2012 was the exception, we finally got a short glimpse of her) and the one who is not on Twitter. If I was an F1 pilot, that was exactly the way I would handle things.

Edited by Higli, 03 December 2012 - 00:31.


#22 DanardiF1

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 00:29

And that is the only possible explanantion?
I could have nothing to do with the fact he was a 22 year old still learning?


I'm not saying that it's the only 'explanation', as I'm not looking for to denigrate Vettel with (neither do I think PretentiousBread is), I just want to contribute to a discussion about what 'tricks', as Seb himself describes them, he has in his skillset.

Of course he was still learning, he's still learning now, but what suits you will always suit you, and that rear stability from the first major update to the RB5 kind of woke him up, from just being super fast to a more rounded driver. Turkey is actually a really good example of his immaturity at that stage, as after he stormed to pole with a great lap, he ruined his own race by going wide on lap 1, and didn't recover from that all race, letting Button romp away to a win he probably wasn't looking on for before the race started.

#23 Afterburner

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 00:43

The reason I find all this interesting is because Vettel's stunning speed in qualifying, often putting huge margins on Webber - a known qualifying specialist from his Jaguar/Williams days - is, I believe, as much a result of Webber underperforming a dominant car as anything else, often giving the illusion that Vettel has put stuck a merely competitive car on pole by dint of him being a driving God.

Wait, you mean that some drivers can't race a car to their full potential, thus completely destroying any attempts to conclude how good any single car is in relation to the other cars because there's no way to tell if a driver from another team could race a car quicker than its two incumbent drivers? Shock. Horror. :eek:

I know this won't sit well with most Vettel fans, and i'll duly get flamed for it, (and that's fine, it's a sensitive topic for some) but things like telemetry data don't lie, and there have been numerous examples of how Red Bull is able to carry sometimes incomparable amounts of speed through fast corners than anyone else, or opening its DRS in places no one else can (according to James Allen something in the region of 15kph more through turns 10/11 at India, being just one example).

And there have also been numerous examples of how Red Bull has been in the region of 15 kph down on other cars on the straights throughout the year. Surely you've read that their design philosophy revolves around sticking the car close to the front in qualifying, then driving as much of the race as possible in clean air to exploit their advantage in cornering speed and minimise the damage caused by their top speed deficit? Same overall goal--to get the car around the track as quickly as possible--different approach to doing so. Probably a wiser one, too, considering F1 circuits are comprised of corners more than straights, but there's that pesky bugbear with the dirty air from other cars almost completely wiping out the cornering advantage.

Personally I think it's harder to drive a car which is quicker in corners than on straights, because your lines and your throttle control have to be inch-perfect (at a higher speed) to get an advantage versus a car that's good on top speed. If you're quicker on the straights, you can make up for time lost in corners by just putting your foot in it and letting the machinery do the work--and this is coming from someone who prefers racing cars on sims that are generally quick on straights and slow in corners.

#24 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 00:50

The article was merely used as the basis for the OP's opinion, which was normalizing Vettel's qualifying performance, while insulting the intelligence of Vettel fans.


I believe your true colors are beginning to show, for me at least.

The article was an attempt to explain why Seb chose to run a completely different spec car than Mark did. Which does not happen very often in F1.

How you figure it insulted Vettel fans is beyond me. He explained Sebs driving style in May, for many that did't know the technique he used. The same thing Seb alluded to at the end of the season. When RB got more rear DF, it allowed Seb to drive in the way he's most comfortable.

The same way that Seb likes to drive is something Mark cannot do, and it's partly why he couldn't drive the RB7 like Seb could.

However it seems that you are one of the ones that cry foul or say Vettel is being diminished if the article in question isn't praising him. How reasonable of you.




#25 bourbon

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 00:54

I believe your true colors are beginning to show, for me at least.

The article was an attempt to explain why Seb chose to run a completely different spec car than Mark did. Which does not happen very often in F1.


Agreed. And if the OP had presented the article without any commentary, we would have nothing to discuss. I am speaking of the OP's commentary.

How you figure it insulted Vettel fans is beyond me.


It is beyond me too - which is why I never said it did. I agree with you on this. You keep insisting we are at odds. We are not.

He explained Sebs driving style in May, for many that did't know the technique he used. The same thing Seb alluded to at the end of the season. When RB got more rear DF, it allowed Seb to drive in the way he's most comfortable. The same way that Seb likes to drive is something Mark cannot do, and it's partly why he couldn't drive the RB7 like Seb could.


Agreed.

However it seems that you are one of the ones that cry foul or say Vettel is being diminished if the article in question isn't praising him. How reasonable of you.


You have misunderstood my post, so I don't think this applies.


#26 PretentiousBread

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 00:58

Wait, you mean that some drivers can't race a car to their full potential, thus completely destroying any attempts to conclude how good any single car is in relation to the other cars because there's no way to tell if a driver from another team could race a car quicker than its two incumbent drivers? Shock. Horror. :eek:


And there have also been numerous examples of how Red Bull has been in the region of 15 kph down on other cars on the straights throughout the year. Surely you've read that their design philosophy revolves around sticking the car close to the front in qualifying, then driving as much of the race as possible in clean air to exploit their advantage in cornering speed and minimise the damage caused by their top speed deficit? Same overall goal--to get the car around the track as quickly as possible--different approach to doing so. Probably a wiser one, too, considering F1 circuits are comprised of corners more than straights, but there's that pesky bugbear with the dirty air from other cars almost completely wiping out the cornering advantage.

Personally I think it's harder to drive a car which is quicker in corners than on straights, because your lines and your throttle control have to be inch-perfect (at a higher speed) to get an advantage versus a car that's good on top speed. If you're quicker on the straights, you can make up for time lost in corners by just putting your foot in it and letting the machinery do the work--and this is coming from someone who prefers racing cars on sims that are generally quick on straights and slow in corners.


Yes of course I know what their design philosophy is, but your 15kph slower down the straight argument doesn't stack up against the cornering advantage - if they carry an extra 15kph through a fast corner (for argument's sake) they are carrying that extra speed onto the ensuing straight, so it isn't until the end of the straight when they're travelling slower, but their straight 'duration' time could be, and often is, less. So its not like they carry the advantage in the corner, but are at this same disadvatage down the straights, its only for a very short amount of time when it becomes a penalising factor. At the opposite end of the spectrum, Kimi Raikkonen was top of the speed trap at Monza, but was so slow onto the pitstraight that Alonso was able to gobble him up half way down it despite having the worse angle of approach through the parabolica. Speed trap figures only tell a tiny piece of the story.

#27 gillesthegenius

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:18

From Jim Clark's Autobiography:
. . . I know I am inclined to go into a corner earlier than most people. By that I mean that most people run deep into a corner before turning the wheels to go round. In this way you can complete all your braking in a straight line, as everyone recommends you do, before setting the car up for the corner; but I prefer to cut into the corner early and even with my brakes still on to set up the car earlier. In this way, I almost make a false apex because I get the power on early and try to drift the car through the true apex and continue with this sliding until I am set up for the next bit of straight."


Mark Hughes...
What Vettel was exceptionally good at last year was using a little bit of oversteer in the initial part of a slow turn to help get the car pointed at the apex sooner - but the rear of the car needs to recover its grip quickly for that initial oversteer not to have too much momentum, building into a slide that costs time. The blown diffuser car was perfect for that, and as the car had that initial twitch of oversteer Seb would then stand on the throttle - giving the rear end even more exhaust-enhanced grip than when off-throttle - and the oversteer would vanish. In this way, Seb could get pointed early at the apex and be early on the power. It demanded a lot of sensitivity for the
balancing point of the rear tyre.


Dont get me wrong. Im not trying to say Seb is as good as Jim Clark. But I see a striking similarity in the way Jim describes his driving style and Mark Hughes describes Seb's driving style.

Accordingly Jim and Seb seem like drivers who...
a) turn into a corner early
b) use the induced oversteer to get the car pointed to the apex earlier
c) and get on the throttle earlier.

This may not be the conventional driving style (used by many very fast drivers like GV, Ayrton, Micheal and Lewis) as Jim himself suggests. But it was mighty effective for Jim, and it looks like its turning out to be very effective for Seb too.

Besides, according to these statements, I feel Jim would have preffered a much more stable rear, just like Seb, if he was driving the RB8. And dont think that wanting a stable rear would have made him any lesser as long as he delivered the results needed to win this years title.

Again I would like to re-iterate that I am not trying to suggest that Seb is as good as Jim. I am just trying to shed light onto Seb's driving style, which seems rather unconventional compared to the recent speed kings like Gilles, Ayrton, Micheal and Lewis.

Cheers.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 03 December 2012 - 01:21.


#28 Afterburner

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:57

Yes of course I know what their design philosophy is, but your 15kph slower down the straight argument doesn't stack up against the cornering advantage - if they carry an extra 15kph through a fast corner (for argument's sake) they are carrying that extra speed onto the ensuing straight, so it isn't until the end of the straight when they're travelling slower, but their straight 'duration' time could be, and often is, less. So its not like they carry the advantage in the corner, but are at this same disadvatage down the straights, its only for a very short amount of time when it becomes a penalising factor. At the opposite end of the spectrum, Kimi Raikkonen was top of the speed trap at Monza, but was so slow onto the pitstraight that Alonso was able to gobble him up half way down it despite having the worse angle of approach through the parabolica. Speed trap figures only tell a tiny piece of the story.

Makes sense, but I certainly don't think that RBR have been faster time-wise down the straight sections than their rivals for very often at all over the past few years. Good acceleration as a result of more downforce can only take you so far. That being said, we're talking differences in lap time that are almost imperceptible to the human eye--differences so small that if a driver sneezes the entire lap time benefit is probably lost, lol. It's always the complete package (car plus driver) that matters in the end, though--something I've been on about for quite some time, but something that, strangely, this forum has been reluctant to pick up on. :p

And lines are of course a variable as well; you can bring more speed through a corner by taking a wider line (obviously not as much as 15 kph), but it's not always faster in terms of lap time. (I'm assuming that you've been watching racing for quite some time, so it's probably not necessary for me to explain that. :p)

#29 boldhakka

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:58

Car isn't dominant unless both drivers achieve a 1-2 in the WDC on top of the WCC. Your own example, 1992, is a case in point. 2011 Mark did not finish 2nd. Ergo car wasn't dominant.

#30 toroRosso

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:58

I don't get it.. Whatever OP is pointing out is all credit to Vettel. I guess it's how you approach it

#31 gillesthegenius

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:06

To conclude, my position is that Vettel is a quicker, cleverer, and simply better driver in almost all departments than Webber, but that the difference generally only becomes really pronounced when EBD/coanda exhausts are brought into the equation, and that this has exaggerated his level of performance, for many are taking Webber's level as a constant, which it is not. How much of it is Vettel's own genius, and how much of it is Webber's own failings is hard to determine. But what's key for me is that my view tallies with what Vettel and Webber have said themselves.

What are your views? Discuss...


Ok this is only my opinion...

You take two greats from the past, one who likes to brake late and throw his car into a corner, like for example Senna, and another one who likes to apex earlier and get on the throttle just that bit earlier, like for example Clark.

Give them a neutral car and they might match each other lap for lap.

But if you make the rear a little twitchy, the first driver (ie Senna) is probably going to love it and he might find it easier to throw the car into a corner and thereby find a little bit extra time, while the second driver (ie Clark) will probably find it difficult to trust the rear as he tries to get on the accelerator just that bit earlier, thereby causing him to lose a bit of time. This double effect will exaggerate the difference between the two drivers, even giving the impression that Senna is waltzing Clark.

But then if you give them a car with a weak front end and more rear stability, Senna is not going find it easy to throw his car into corners in the way he likes, causing him to lose a bit of time, while Clark is probably going to love it, allowing him to trust the rear as he turns in early and gets on the accelerator even earlier, allowing him to gain a little bit of time. This double effect will also exaggerate the difference between the two drivers, even giving the impression that Clark is waltzing Senna.

The same will apply to lets say a duel up between Hamilton and Vettel or in this case Webber and Vettel. But the crucial thing here is that Webber didnt look like he was waltzing Vettel even when the car suited him, suggesting that he doesnt have the natural speed of Seb.

None of them is God. All of them are humans and therefore none of them is/was/will be perfect. And naturally all of them will have preferences, which, when met with, allow them to thrive.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 03 December 2012 - 03:11.


#32 George Costanza

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:20

Car isn't dominant unless both drivers achieve a 1-2 in the WDC on top of the WCC. Your own example, 1992, is a case in point. 2011 Mark did not finish 2nd. Ergo car wasn't dominant.


RB in 2010 was pretty close to dominant, much like '92.

#33 Sakae

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:54

Dont get me wrong. Im not trying to say Seb is as good as Jim Clark...

What's holding this up? Data are in, we have seen what Vettel can do, and I don't believe in myths.


#34 gillesthegenius

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:27

What's holding this up? Data are in, we have seen what Vettel can do, and I don't believe in myths.


Being a massive fan of Seb and I dont want rush in with such high comparisons. Seb's career is still young and he has a long, long way to go. So let us just enjoy his racing untill he, god willing, calls it a day, and then decide how he stacks up against Clark and co. :)

PS: This I tell from experience. Back in 2006, I, being a massive fan of Fernando, thought that he was the next big thing after Senna and Schumi and he was going to rule f1 like they did. But Hamilton gave me a wake up call, before I managed to switch allegience just in time to avoid the shock that Seb was about to deliver, had I remained as a Fernando fan even after the disturbing happenings of 2007 and Singapore 2008. So lets just wait and watch without coming to premature conclusions.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 03 December 2012 - 06:00.


#35 Sakae

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:48

Being a massive fan of Seb and I dont want rush in with such high comparisons. Seb's career is still young and he has a long, long way to go. So let us just enjoy his racing untill he, god willing, calls it a day, and then decide how he stacks up against Clark and co. :)

Notwithstanding that I do not like such comparisons either, and share your ambivalence in this post regarding Vettel’s career to be judged relatively early, however I think you have already made judgement that Vettel is not at Clark’s level. My curiosity consequently took over, hoping to receive explanation for such conclusion.

#36 gillesthegenius

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:56

Notwithstanding that I do not like such comparisons either, and share your ambivalence in this post regarding Vettel’s career to be judged relatively early, however I think you have already made judgement that Vettel is not at Clark’s level. My curiosity consequently took over, hoping to receive explanation for such conclusion.


Neither was I suggesting that Vettel is not at Clark's level, nor did I want to appear like I was suggesting that Seb is up there with Clark. He could be better / as good as / worse than Clark. But what I feel is that it is best for us to reserve such judgement atleast untill Seb's career is, god willing, over.

#37 velgajski1

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:13

It's all about adapting to any kind of car, thats what separates good drivers from top drivers. That's why Seb is beating Webber even in 2012. when it looked like the car suits Webber a bit more at the start of the season - but Vettel adapted.

This is also the reason why Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel are usually regarded as top 3. You very rarely see them being slow / struggling in comparison to their teammates.

#38 Juggles

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:57

It's all about adapting to any kind of car, thats what separates good drivers from top drivers. That's why Seb is beating Webber even in 2012. when it looked like the car suits Webber a bit more at the start of the season - but Vettel adapted.

This is also the reason why Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel are usually regarded as top 3. You very rarely see them being slow / struggling in comparison to their teammates.


Possibly. We should also consider that the car was adapted to suit Vettel. I think it's probably a combination of the two. I am certain that Vettel gains more relative to Webber the more rear downforce is piled on. This is the opposite of the Hamilton-Button relationship where it is Button who benefits more from that perfectly stable rear end which last season he equated to "driving a giant go-kart."

Also, Pretentious is quite right that a car does not have to be dominant in the hands of both drivers to be dominant. In 2011 Vettel was able to unlock the potential of the RB7 with its counter-intuitive driving requirements while Webber was never able to. The point is, the Vettel-Red Bull package was untouchable. I haven't heard a single Vettel fan judge this season's McLaren by what Button did with it, and nor should they; but you can't have it both ways. No driver in the world can win eleven races in a season when the driver field is so competitive without a dominant car, no matter what their teammate did.

The Williams in 1992 is considered by many a classic dominant F1 car. Mansell's teammate Patrese finished second granted, but only by 56 points to Michael Schumacher's 53 points in third. In 2011 Webber finished 12 points (adjusted to 1992 levels that's a few points) behind second placed Button. Not a huge difference between those two situations.

#39 muramasa

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:19

I think if there's one thing that's frequently mentioned whenever Vettel is discussed it's his sheer dedication behind the scenes. In terms of pure driving ability there may not be a huge gulf between them but my impression is that he maximises every advantage he can to extract every bit of performance out of the driver/car package.

that's certainly one of major factors.

I recall Hamashima of then Bridgestone said, at the end of 2010, sth along the lines of "it's pleasing to see the driver who came to me to ask about tyres (by far) the most often", when asked about what he'd think about result of 2010 and the new champion.


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#40 Kelateboy

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:59

Red Bull understand what Vettel likes, and it's something they've mastered in building into their cars.

Exactly. But nothing wrong in designing the car to suit your nr 1 driver, or the driver that has the best chances of bagging the WDC on your behalf. Ultimately, that individual success would and most likely translate itself into the team's success in terms of WCC.


#41 Kelateboy

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:13

It's all about adapting to any kind of car, thats what separates good drivers from top drivers. That's why Seb is beating Webber even in 2012. when it looked like the car suits Webber a bit more at the start of the season - but Vettel adapted.

This is also the reason why Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel are usually regarded as top 3. You very rarely see them being slow / struggling in comparison to their teammates.

Even when the car was not to Vettel's liking, he persevered and led the standing after the 4th race of the season in Bahrain. People seem to forget that just a race before in China, he pleaded RBR to allow him to race a car without the cross-over tunnel. He just wasn't comfortable with the version that was introduced in the last 2 days of winter testing, where he hardly got any track time due to mechanical issues. But Horner and Newey put their foot down, and forced him to utilize the cross-over tunnel version. On hindsight, Red Bull made the right decision with their development path.



#42 Higli

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:19

I recall Hamashima of then Bridgestone said, at the end of 2010, sth along the lines of "it's pleasing to see the driver who came to me to ask about tyres (by far) the most often", when asked about what he'd think about result of 2010 and the new champion.

Yes, and wasn't he the only driver who was on location when the 2012 Pirellis were presented? Not sure, but I think there was a story of that kind.

#43 Atreiu

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:37

I have nothing to add, but it's an interesting thread. I wish there was more about specific driver styles going around.
For example, how Alonso went from near ragged with blind faith in the Michelins (just my impression) through Bridgestone and Pirelli.

#44 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:18

Cant believe he said he couldnt use any of his 'tricks' what is this a videogame? Im annoyed that this season FIA set out to eliminate blown diffuser, yet ultimately Red Bull were able to find there advantage once again with the exhaust and take the title. Is there anymore advancment next year in seeking to well and truly get rid of these exhaust loopholes?

Unfortunately (or realistically) them the fact.

It goes without saying Vettel could drive any race car, and similarly for Jimme Johnson.

But to best in a certain category requires specialisation and indeed "special tricks". Just as Vettel has special techniques to get more performance from F1 car, Jimme Johnson has special techniques to get more performance from NASCAR.

Similarly if for some reason you force Vettel to drive with Kubica's setup or force* Johnson to drive with Earnhardt's setup... you may well find your "superstar" is suddenly a midpack also ran!

* There is a very real risk of this in F3, F Renault etc however where engineering resources in each team are limited -- yet we look on junior formula results as definitive ! :eek:

#45 sailor

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:24

Cant believe he said he couldnt use any of his 'tricks' what is this a videogame? Im annoyed that this season FIA set out to eliminate blown diffuser, yet ultimately Red Bull were able to find there advantage once again with the exhaust and take the title. Is there anymore advancment next year in seeking to well and truly get rid of these exhaust loopholes?


Hmm..
The problem is your mis-understanding of the term "trick" in this context. Perhaps not the best usage of word but not a big deal either.
Driving Style is the "trick" and every driver has them and suffer when they cant use the style or trick. What else makes them faster than the others (teammate) in the first place? Trick just gives a negative connotation.

Hamilton has his tricks as does Alonso. Although they will rarely term those "tricks" because they know it can come across looking badly on them.

Edited by sailor, 03 December 2012 - 11:24.


#46 Seanspeed

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:38

How much of it is Vettel's own genius, and how much of it is Webber's own failings is hard to determine.

As usual, its probably somewhere in the middle. Webber is no slouch by any means but he does have his days where he's just completely off the pace even in an extremely good car.

#47 tkulla

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:47

Not sure what's going on with this thread, but as near as I can tell Vettel is the best qualifier in F1 along with Hamilton. And since his racecraft seems to have improved greatly over the last few years he'd probably be the guy I pick first if I was suddenly the team principal of a top team.

Edited by tkulla, 03 December 2012 - 12:48.


#48 Black Widow

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 13:06

Not sure what's going on with this thread, but as near as I can tell Vettel is the best qualifier in F1 along with Hamilton. And since his racecraft seems to have improved greatly over the last few years he'd probably be the guy I pick first if I was suddenly the team principal of a top team.

tkulla

That is what i am really questioning, has his racecraft improved greatly over the last few seasons. This thread is about Vettel's speed and I remember very distinctly the start of 2012 when the car was not to his liking at all and he in fact he looked quite ordinary. As the car developed to his liking, so too did his speed and ultimately results.

Is he really that much better a driver than the others on the grid or is it just that once the car is tailored to his needs he, through the performance of the car, becomes a better driver? I believe it is the latter.

Don't get me wrong, Vettel is quick but so too are Alonso and Hamilton.



#49 Higli

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 13:11

This thread is about Vettel's speed and I remember very distinctly the start of 2012 when the car was not to his liking at all and he in fact he looked quite ordinary.

I rewatched the first four races of 2012 yesterday and found he did not look ordinary at all. He was even leading the championship at that time.

#50 mnmracer

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 13:14

tkulla

That is what i am really questioning, has his racecraft improved greatly over the last few seasons. This thread is about Vettel's speed and I remember very distinctly the start of 2012 when the car was not to his liking at all and he in fact he looked quite ordinary. As the car developed to his liking, so too did his speed and ultimately results.

Is he really that much better a driver than the others on the grid or is it just that once the car is tailored to his needs he, through the performance of the car, becomes a better driver? I believe it is the latter.

Don't get me wrong, Vettel is quick but so too are Alonso and Hamilton.

Did he not take second place in Australia?
Was he not on his way to challenge Hamilton for third before Karthikeyan in Malaysia?
Did he, or did he not, outperform Mark Webber in 8 out of the first 11 races before the summer break?

This 'ordinary' first half of the season by Vettel is just a myth that is infinitely repeated but never substantiated.