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Any ideas where this might be?


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#1 Kinky

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 21:16

Thanks to Stuart F for the pointer to here.

My father in law passed away a year ago, and going through some bits and pieces we found a load of slides. Converting them to PC images, there's a load of racing pics and some military stuff.

He was a Group Captain in the RAF back in the day and heavily involved in racing (including organising races on his airfields) :)

Anyhow, I digress. We're trying to figure out where the following pic was taken. Any ideas?

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Many thanks in advance,

K

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#2 Kinky

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 22:36

Here's 2 more pics from the same set; although may not be the same location/time. Any info would be extremely helpful.

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I hope the big pics are ok.

#3 Doug Nye

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 22:44

Snetterton - October 10, 1959 - Silver City Trophy, Formula 1 race start shows the BRM Type 25s of Ron Flockhart and Bruce Halford leading away. Fine shots.

DCN

#4 pete53

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 22:57

I love the third picture - the colours of the competing cars, the heavy cloud laden sky and the sunlight:stunning.

#5 arttidesco

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 00:53

Great pics, looks like the 'pit lane' was used for the starting grid back in the day and what ever happened to the hill in the back ground that acts as an impromptu grandstand ?

#6 275 GTB-4

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:20

I'm sure someone else can do better with these...slight improvement :)

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#7 Barry Boor

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:25

Curses! I just ran this race a month or so ago and my starting grid was 4-3-4- not 5-4-5.

#8 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:44

Excellent! Yes Barry 5-4-5 grid as many races were at Snett in this period, with pole position in the pit exit 'lane'. Lovely pictures taken from the oft missed pit balcony. If Goodwood can do it today, why can't other circuits put them back? The hill in the background still exists, but in a different form. That was the mound, put there by the Americans during the war. Targets were propped against it and the B17s guns were tested and aligned. In 1965 the first bailey bridge over the circuit was built, at the Esses, the earth for the bridge ramps came from this mound. Plenty of lead was found within..That bridge was pulled down in 1997 and the one we use today at the end of the Bentley Straight was built, using recycled soil from the old bridge and mound. In the programme there is no mention of this being the Silver City trophy race, although have heard it often reported thus. The sportscars are lining up for the Autosport 3 hour race, if at the same meeting.

Edited by Andrew Kitson, 04 December 2012 - 08:52.


#9 Belmondo

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:52

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[/quote]

Cooper-tastic!


#10 garyfrogeye

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:55

And what a collection of cars in the car park 300SL included.

#11 jcbc3

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:13

And what a collection of cars in the car park 300SL included.


"Where's Waldo" becoming "Where's W198"

#12 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:25

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Could this one be 1957...Archie in the cream car no.53, the Elva-Butterworth?


#13 john winfield

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:29

Terrific photos Kinky, thanks for posting.
Despite the 5-4-5 grid, the pit lane personnel and photographers appear to have complete confidence in the drivers' ability to get away cleanly and safely, although it looks as if Flockhart and McKee are edging away from the pit lane, either for safety's sake or to have a better line through Riches.
Today it seems surprising that there weren't more startline accidents, perhaps involving those in the pits. Were drivers noticeably less aggressive in these densely packed starts? I think Silverstone still had some Formula 1 4-3-4 grids through to the late 1960s (but with a raised pitlane) but I don't recall any problems. I was looking at a clip of the F3 heats at the 1970 British GP....far more frantic and both had serious startline shunts, thankfully just beyond the (protected) pit lane. But back in 1959 things at Snet seem slightly more relaxed, although a few cars are laying down some serious rubber!

#14 alansart

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:00

What confused me when I first saw this photo is the huge mound of earth in the background. Was this a result of the time Snetterton was an Airbase or from construction of the circuit?

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#15 john winfield

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:04

What confused me when I first saw this photo is the huge mound of earth in the background. Was this a result of the time Snetterton was an Airbase or from construction of the circuit?


Alan, Andrew explains in post #8.

#16 Graham Clayton

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:26

I'm intrigued by the numbers on the right hand side of the grid that are at a 90 degree angle to the grid spots. From what I can see, they seem to be numbered 23, 22, 21, 20, 19, 18, and then they seem to abruptly stop. My first thought was that they could be markings for a Le Mans start, but they don't seem wide enough for a car. Does anyone have any ideas what they might be used for?

#17 Tim Murray

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:45

Today it seems surprising that there weren't more startline accidents, perhaps involving those in the pits. Were drivers noticeably less aggressive in these densely packed starts?

The F1R Black Book says:

The start was quite eventful when Raby got rather sideways and was hit by Whitehouse. Both rejoined but Whitehouse soon had to retire with suspension damage.


The starting grid in the Black Book shows Raby on the extreme left of the second row with Whitehouse behind him on the extreme left of the third row. However, the numbers visible in the photo show that some of that grid isn't correct.

Edited by Tim Murray, 04 December 2012 - 10:47.


#18 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:47

The Autosport 3 hr race had a Le Mans start for its first couple of years, first run in 1957. That's what the markings are with pole position down towards Riches. The numbers in circles are for motorcycles.

#19 alansart

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:51

Alan, Andrew explains in post #8.


Doh...missed that! :blush:


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#20 Kinky

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:51

Thanks for all comments and feedback guys. It's really much appreciated.

Snetterton does make sense as he was locally-based to it at the time.

I'll pull out all the pics I've got and I'll scan them in properly and at highest res I can, so hopefully the picture quality is better.

I'll then upload them and link them here for you all to enjoy :)

Many thanks again everyone. You've made us a very happy family; and a great reminder to a great man.

K

#21 alansart

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 13:27

Thanks for all comments and feedback guys. It's really much appreciated.

Snetterton does make sense as he was locally-based to it at the time.

I'll pull out all the pics I've got and I'll scan them in properly and at highest res I can, so hopefully the picture quality is better.

I'll then upload them and link them here for you all to enjoy :)

Many thanks again everyone. You've made us a very happy family; and a great reminder to a great man.

K


K, one of the things I like about this place is that people like yourself take the trouble to share old photos with us all. It often starts, as in your case, with a question and I'm often amazed how quickly correct answers arrive. There is a lot of knowledge on here which is generally helpful and at times facinating :)

Edited by alansart, 04 December 2012 - 13:27.


#22 bradbury west

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 14:10

I amintrigued by the make of the blue 3box saloon, top left in the paddock shot with the blue, striped Eleven, poss Cedric Brierley's car? The new BMC A55/A99 models emerged in 1959
BTW, how reassuring to see another example of the near-ubiquitous Austin K8 3 way entry van
Roger Lund

#23 Sharman

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 14:22

I amintrigued by the make of the blue 3box saloon, top left in the paddock shot with the blue, striped Eleven, poss Cedric Brierley's car? The new BMC A55/A99 models emerged in 1959
BTW, how reassuring to see another example of the near-ubiquitous Austin K8 3 way entry van
Roger Lund

I can't see it too clearly Roger but could it be a FIAT 1900?

#24 nicanary

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 14:37

I amintrigued by the make of the blue 3box saloon, top left in the paddock shot with the blue, striped Eleven, poss Cedric Brierley's car? The new BMC A55/A99 models emerged in 1959
BTW, how reassuring to see another example of the near-ubiquitous Austin K8 3 way entry van
Roger Lund


I'm pretty sure it's one of the Farina-styled BMC cars, in single tone probably an A55, which as you say were introduced in 1959, and this meeting took place in October 1959.
What interested me was car #46, the Lotus 11, which is in exactly the same colour scheme as the Corgi model of that era. (Which Corgi also sold as part of a gift set with the Ecurie Ecosse transporter, together I think with a Vanwall and BRM P25. That annoyed me as a child).


#25 Macca

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 14:49

I didn't know about Lotus XIs but the Vanwall was red which annoyed me, and the BRM was an odd shade of light green (which wasn't BRP grazing green) with a noseband. Mine is now 'dark lust. grn.'

Paul M

#26 nicanary

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 15:11

I didn't know about Lotus XIs but the Vanwall was red which annoyed me, and the BRM was an odd shade of light green (which wasn't BRP grazing green) with a noseband. Mine is now 'dark lust. grn.'

Paul M


When it would have been just as easy to "get it right". Unless Tony Vandervell had a copyright on the official colour !


#27 Barry Boor

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 15:36

I've got one of those blue and red Lotuses around somewhere.

#28 RCH

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 17:43

When it would have been just as easy to "get it right". Unless Tony Vandervell had a copyright on the official colour !


The original Corgi Vanwall was I think about the the right colour, the later version was red. I remember reading somewhere as a lad that the red version outsold the green one.

#29 pete53

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 18:00

The original Corgi Vanwall was I think about the the right colour, the later version was red. I remember reading somewhere as a lad that the red version outsold the green one.

I have the early Lotus XI Corgi models in silver and pale blue. I always assumed the later version in blue with with white and red stripes was Corgi trying to make the model more appealing to young eyes. After seeing the photo in this thread perhaps not (?)

#30 nicanary

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 18:55

I have the early Lotus XI Corgi models in silver and pale blue. I always assumed the later version in blue with with white and red stripes was Corgi trying to make the model more appealing to young eyes. After seeing the photo in this thread perhaps not (?)


It think it's probably just a coincidence. You're right in assuming Corgi were trying to refresh what was an older casting - Dinky did the same with the 40-series saloons with two-tone paintwork of extremely alarming and unlikely hues. Desperate measures.


#31 CoulthardD

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 19:41

I can’t argue against the BMC cars, but I think the first sportscar paddock photo is 19th May, 1957. I’m sure that’s my uncle, Jimmy Blumer, in the middle of the shot, with the blue overalls.

If so, 48 is Chris Power, Cooper T39 Climax. 34 is Bill Frost, Lotus Eleven Climax. (I don’t know 35 – another Lotus Eleven?). 59 is Jonathan Sieff, Cooper T39 Connaught. 49, S. Gambles, Harpermax Climax. 51 is Jimmy’s Bobtail. I think that’s a Lotus Mk 10 in maroon with the yellow strip at the end of the row – John Ridley’s car.

Happy to be shot down in flames if my car identification is wrong!

DC

#32 nicanary

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 20:11

If that is so, then photos 2 and 3 are from the same meeting, because Jimmy Blumer can be seen on the left margin of pic 3. And that "Farina-esque" saloon is in both snaps. So what is it?Very modern design for 1957 - a Lancia perhaps?

#33 bradbury west

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 20:16

But we have the seemingly same blue 3box saloon top rt in one shot, top left in the other, in both with what looks like a pair of cream A Healeys in front of it, one Healey with the lower half in black, so perhaps/probably the same day with 2 shots over the halves of tghe paddock. For the saloon I even considered John's FIAT 2100, out in 1959, or even a Simca Vedette, but too sharp edged for those, so still looks like an A55.
If it is Cedric Brierley's blue Eleven it was bought new off the Racing Car Show stand and had covered barely 500 miles when bought by a well known specialist about 10 years ago, judging by the lack of wear on the gear teeth etc. See C&SC? article a few years back.
Roger Lund

#34 Kinky

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 20:43

Let me dig out the slides and see what sequence the film strip numbers are in. That might/should confirm if they were sequential and if so (more than likely) from the same film.

#35 Kinky

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 21:04

Sorry guys. You'll have to wait an hour or more. Mrs. K is out tonight and I can't find those specific slides in her office. They are there (somewhere), as she scanned them yesterday!

I did find a lot of other slides (lots of military stuff) and most slides are numbered and some are dated; so that might help :)

#36 nicanary

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 21:31

I can definitely tell you that photo 1 is a different meeting to the next two. The only other race on the card for the Oct 1959 Silver City Trophy meeting was the Autosport 3-Hours for marque sports cars.

I agree that the other two are taken from two separate vantage points of the same paddock, at the same meeting. Andrew Kitson will probably have a copy of the programme for that meeting which appears to have been in 1957.

#37 E1pix

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 21:56

I'll pull out all the pics I've got and I'll scan them in properly and at highest res I can, so hopefully the picture quality is better.

I'll then upload them and link them here for you all to enjoy :)

Beautiful, stunning reminders of the good old days, Kinky! :up:

If you're struggling with color and contrast on the images, I'd be happy to help. Just PM me, I myself have resurrected many old racing slides so I've done some really hard bits I can help you avoid. Overall, on my corrected monitor, it looks like they could be brighter like 275 did, and as is typical old images tend to go blue. But the images themselves are fabulous and a joy to view!

For this site, 800 pixels on the long end is a good size. Especially when posting several, 800 is perfect for review and for the site's bandwidth.

Well Done! :up:

#38 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 22:10

Not sure if I have that prog if it is 1957, as I asked earlier could the cream Elva no 53 be Archie? The Butterworth car that liked eating valves?

#39 nicanary

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 22:43

Not sure if I have that prog if it is 1957, as I asked earlier could the cream Elva no 53 be Archie? The Butterworth car that liked eating valves?


It looks like an Elva, and it looks like Archie, but the car does not have the huge power bulges necessary for the "Butterscotch" engine. Curiouser and curiouser. In fact, the bodywork looks like the Elva of '58, and this is presumed to be '57. Oh dear, a restless night ahead thinking this one through.


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#40 275 GTB-4

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 22:47

Beautiful, stunning reminders of the good old days, Kinky! :up:

If you're struggling with color and contrast on the images, I'd be happy to help. Just PM me, I myself have resurrected many old racing slides so I've done some really hard bits I can help you avoid. Overall, on my corrected monitor, it looks like they could be brighter like 275 did, and as is typical old images tend to go blue. But the images themselves are fabulous and a joy to view!

For this site, 800 pixels on the long end is a good size. Especially when posting several, 800 is perfect for review and for the site's bandwidth.

Well Done! :up:


Ernst says it more technical-like!

http://www.luminous-...ic=50508.0;wap2

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 04 December 2012 - 22:47.


#41 E1pix

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 00:36

Ernst says it more technical-like!

http://www.luminous-...ic=50508.0;wap2

Wading through techno to find simple is best. :)

That's a good site, though. One common missing link is scanning to a film's custom profile with a program supporting that (like SilverFast). This means scanning an "IT8 Target" per film type so the raw scans are so much closer that correcting is cut in half or more. LaserSoft and Wolf Faust make great IT8 Targets, otherwise the stock "canned" profiles on all scanners have to work within major compromises between all film types. Kodachromes suffer the most without the targets.

Sorry to go geeky on y'all, now back to your regularly-scheduled program... :)

#42 CoulthardD

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 19:26

If the two sports car assembly area shots are the same race, and I see no reason why they wouldn’t be, then my own theory falls apart. If both shots are the same, then 53 is race winner Tommy Dickson’s Eleven, 46 is Holmes in an Austin Special and 61 is Peter Hardman in a Riley Special. Clearly, they are not! :cry:

DC

#43 Kinky

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 20:26

Sorry guys :(

We'll have to wait a little longer for the details on the pics (to work out if they sequential or dated in any way).

I did not realise that Mrs. K had scanned them in a few weeks ago and had put them away with a load of other stuff. So, we'll have to go dig them out.

I feel a bit of an eejit now :)

On a side-note, Mrs. K was telling her mum about the brilliant stuff posted on this thread; at which point it came out that he was best mates with Mike Hawthorne and Colin Chapman. He and had Mike had agreed to be racing partners!

#44 Allan Lupton

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 22:52

On a side-note, Mrs. K was telling her mum about the brilliant stuff posted on this thread; at which point it came out that he was best mates with Mike Hawthorn and Colin Chapman. He and had Mike had agreed to be racing partners!

You can't tell us that and not tell us his name!
Some of us may remember him. . .

Edited by Allan Lupton, 07 December 2012 - 22:53.