15 replies to this topic

[DanTra2858]

I was looking at photos of the early front engine Vanwall F1 cars & noticed that they appear to be using (Rod Ends, Rose Joints, Spherical Bearings) on the top front suspension trailing radius arm, would this make them the first F1 Manufacture to employ Rod Ends in Suspension configuration.

They also appear to be using Spherical or Self Aligning Bearings on the front sway bar attachment.

In what year did this happen.

[David Birchall]

I am fascinated to hear a response to this! Come on experts-is he right?

[Andrew Fellowes]

I am fascinated to hear a response to this! Come on experts-is he right?

Me too, this is all I can find so far, is it correct?

The spherical rod end bearing was developed by the Germans in World War II. When one of the first German planes to be shot down by the British in early 1940 was examined, they found this joint in use in the aircraft's control systems. The H.G. Heim Company was given an exclusive patent to manufacture these joints in North America, while in the UK the patent passed to Rose Bearings Ltd. The ubiquity of these manufacturers in their respective markets led to the terms Heim joint and rose joint becoming synonymous with their product

[Tim Murray]

We started to discuss this in Dan's earlier thread:

Spherical bearings, rod ends & rose joints in Oz racing

until Dan insisted that the discussion be restricted to Australian use only. In that thread Peter Morley noted that Connaught had used them (which would almost certainly have pre-dated Vanwall), and Richard Bishop-Miller posted the following:

were use in 500's from the 50's.
The Revis used them in the rear pull rod from 1951

I've been through both my Vanwall books, but so far can't find anything that shows them using this type of joint.

[layabout]

I was looking at photos of the early front engine Vanwall F1 cars & noticed that they appear to be using (Rod Ends, Rose Joints, Spherical Bearings) on the top front suspension trailing radius arm, would this make them the first F1 Manufacture to employ Rod Ends in Suspension configuration.

They also appear to be using Spherical or Self Aligning Bearings on the front sway bar attachment.

In what year did this happen.

I have some books from that period & I can't find a rod end on any Vanwall. I've attached a front end cutaway of a 1957 Vanwall (sorry, the drawing is too large for the scanner) to that end:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[DanTra2858]

Below is a picture taken from the following site ... http://www.ultimatec...Grand-Prix.html This is what started me thinking.

[Allan Lupton]

Both cars referred to in that site are reconstructions, so detail from either in finished form is not necessarily evidence.
Period photographs would be better and the Max Miller cutaway of the 1958 car shows no sign of Rose joints at the ends of the trailing links.

ETA sorry, the photo must be the front suspension and a leading link and as can be seen it's not complete but my first sentence applies.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 06 December 2012 - 08:47.

[DanTra2858]

Maybe some of our UK contributers could look at the cars in the Donnington Museum this would clear up my question, I also notice that the rear trailing arms on this car seem to have self aligning bearings as well as the front sway bar linkages with the throttle linkages being Rod Ends.

If referral to the cutaway drawing shown in post by Layabout then all I can say that I must have very bad eyesight for I can not see the front trailings arms at all, so if there is another drawing then I would like to see it.

So who was the first to use these bearings??????????

If the cars were completed from original drawings why did they then use Rod Ends

[Doug Nye]

This is a Vandervell Products Ltd record photo of the front suspension on an early 'teardrop' car which I suspect might even have been the first prototoype but haven't had time to check.

Nary a Rose joint - nor Heim joint - in sight, I believe. At least, not on the suspension system. I'll try to post a contemporary 1957 or '58 suspension shot if I happen upon one.

Photo Strictly Copyright; via The GP Library

DCN

[David Birchall]

My 1959 Elva Formula Junior had them but there is no way that was the first!

[Robin Fairservice]

Connaught "discovered" Rose joints in 1953, and they were used on the B model F 1 car. On page 79 of "To draw a long line" Johnny Johnson writes about phoning Rose Bros. one day to see if they made anything like the Hoffman CJ5 joints and they laughed and told him that they made the joints for Hoffmans!

[Magoo]

From personal observation, the Belanger Special, built in 1949 by Frank Kurtis, won Indy 500 in 1951, used Heim joints. Spherical bearings are visible in photos of the 1948 Pat Clancy Special, which was built from Kurtis midget components.

In his book Kurtis-Kraft: Masterworks of Speed & Style, author Gordon Eliot White states (p.47) that Kurtis was using Heim joints on his midgets in late 1945. Also Dzus fasteners, both of which Kurtis would have been familiar with from his wartime military fabrication work.

I wasn't there personally (too young) but it is my understanding that developments in racing including military spec fasteners, braided hose, aircraft couplings, 4130 chrome-moly tube, Dzus fasteners, Heim joints, etc, arose from experience gained by men working in the Southern California aircraft plants during WWII (and by military mechanics in theater) and the huge supplies of these components after the war that sold essentially by the pound as military surplus.

I believe that by 1952-53, spherical joints would be commonplace in American oval track racing. For example, here is Jimmy Bryan's #72 Lesovsky Offy, DNQ (withdrawn, too slow) in 1951:

Edited by Magoo, 14 December 2012 - 02:43.

[DanTra2858]

Connaught "discovered" Rose joints in 1953, and they were used on the B model F 1 car. On page 79 of "To draw a long line" Johnny Johnson writes about phoning Rose Bros. one day to see if they made anything like the Hoffman CJ5 joints and they laughed and told him that they made the joints for Hoffmans!

Well it appears that Connaught at this stage of the game are the First to use Rod Ends in F1, or WERE THEY ??????

Again the original question concerning Vanwall has still not been completely answered, may be the Question should be did Vanwall use ever use Rod Ends in their front engine cars.

Finally many thanks to all that have supplied information I have found it fascinating, how could a little thing like a Rod End create so much comment!

[Doug Nye]

Great post...

DCN

[Peter Morley]

This is a Vandervell Products Ltd record photo of the front suspension on an early 'teardrop' car which I suspect might even have been the first prototoype but haven't had time to check.

Nary a Rose joint - nor Heim joint - in sight, I believe. At least, not on the suspension system. I'll try to post a contemporary 1957 or '58 suspension shot if I happen upon one.

Photo Strictly Copyright; via The GP Library

DCN

What's the joint on the end of the anti-roll bar, it looks to be too narrow to be a metalastic joint?

The radius arm also appears to have/need some kind of 'flexible' joint.

[DanTra2858]

This is a Vandervell Products Ltd record photo of the front suspension on an early 'teardrop' car which I suspect might even have been the first prototoype but haven't had time to check.

Nary a Rose joint - nor Heim joint - in sight, I believe. At least, not on the suspension system. I'll try to post a contemporary 1957 or '58 suspension shot if I happen upon one.

Photo Strictly Copyright; via The GP Library

DCN

When working with suspension settings all link points are set up in a way that there are no angular connecting points from rod to arms or sway bar connections which will cause fighting of the suspension.

Given this theory Rod Ends / Spherical Bearings do allow for some misalignment, it appears to me on all shown photo,s that the sway bar appears to have a Spherical Bearing at this point also the drop link of the sway bar appears be be of a rocker configuration also suggesting Spherical Bearings as it is too narrow for Rubber Bushings.

The front end of the Radius Rod also appears to have an Adjustment System, is this for length adjustment or a Spherical Bearind housing.

By using Self Aligning / Spherical Bearings at these points it will allow for a smooth operation of the suspension not adding unwanted stress to the Suspension upper control arm.

Or am I wrong in my thinking?????