Jump to content


Photo
* * - - - 12 votes

Jenson v's Lewis - a retrospective view of their time as team mates


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
789 replies to this topic

#451 Rybo

Rybo
  • Member

  • 346 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 28 December 2012 - 05:00

Hamilton is the one supposedly miles ahead of Jenson with Jenson not in his league etc. etc. etc. Yet, the the points tally doesn't reflect this. A points tally spanning three seasons. Hamilton isn't the one who needs his abilities explained. It's Jenson who needs his explained.

While Hamilton is better on pace, he's not as good mentally, in race craft or team leading as Jenson. Button came on as the underdog and 'stole the show' within the team. Those who are enamored by speed only, will always be at odds with those who come along and do better despite not being as quick as their darling 'quick' driver.



Button is lacking in pace compared to Hamilton... perhaps the quickest of all the drivers on the grid now. It's not that Button isn't quick. It's not that Alonso isn't quick.

I'm comparing the two drivers and not making absolute statements/claims even if they seem that way from my admittedly dodgy wording. For me, Hamilton's speed doesn't make up for his other issues and this is why he's not as successful as he could be given the equipment that he's had at his disposal since his career's start. Button makes up for his pace through his strength in other areas. One could actually argue that neither of them are complete since Button's lack of pace compared to Hamilton is too much. I don't have much of an issue with that POV actually.

I'd not at all be surprised if they continued to score similarly in the points given a chance at another season. But we'll never know. For me, their pretty much equal performance level as a result of a different mix of strength/weaknesses is a point well made. Time for something different as we'll get with Hamilton now at Mercedes.


There is a lot in there that can derail this thread quite quickly, but to keep on their time as teammates Button did score more points. However Hamilton finished ahead in two of the three seasons. And during their time the only outlier is 2011 when Hamilton picked the best year to screw up as Vettel was untouchable. Sure Hamilton had good cars in 2010 and 2012, but so did Button and coincidentally he finished lower in the standings in both years. Also that Hamilton isn't as good mentally or doesn't have good race craft is utter bull. Outside the cockpit sure he hasn't made the wisest decision, but can anyone really say that they haven't done something they regretted later? Inside however he had a almost flawless year, the only thing he did wrong was defend against a foolish Maldonado and made the wrong set up choice in Spa which saw him caught up with Grosjean. Besides that what more could he have done??

Hamilton has proved that he is one of the best, and while the -27 was a championship contender for Hamilton it never really was for Button. After Canada Jenson's title hopes are all, but over. Im not sure how next year would fair as the-28 will be very similar to the-27 because the rules haven't changed much, and Jenson has said he was not happy with the -27.

Advertisement

#452 teejay

teejay
  • Member

  • 3,632 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 28 December 2012 - 05:27

Id be interested in the reaction if Lewis had made those comments.

#453 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:30

Hamilton is the one supposedly miles ahead of Jenson with Jenson not in his league etc. etc. etc. Yet, the the points tally doesn't reflect this. A points tally spanning three seasons. Hamilton isn't the one who needs his abilities explained. It's Jenson who needs his explained.

While Hamilton is better on pace, he's not as good mentally, in race craft or team leading as Jenson. Button came on as the underdog and 'stole the show' within the team. Those who are enamored by speed only, will always be at odds with those who come along and do better despite not being as quick as their darling 'quick' driver.

Button is lacking in pace compared to Hamilton... perhaps the quickest of all the drivers on the grid now. It's not that Button isn't quick. It's not that Alonso isn't quick.

I'm comparing the two drivers and not making absolute statements/claims even if they seem that way from my admittedly dodgy wording. For me, Hamilton's speed doesn't make up for his other issues and this is why he's not as successful as he could be given the equipment that he's had at his disposal since his career's start. Button makes up for his pace through his strength in other areas. One could actually argue that neither of them are complete since Button's lack of pace compared to Hamilton is too much. I don't have much of an issue with that POV actually.

I'd not at all be surprised if they continued to score similarly in the points given a chance at another season. But we'll never know. For me, their pretty much equal performance level as a result of a different mix of strength/weaknesses is a point well made. Time for something different as we'll get with Hamilton now at Mercedes.

I find this quite a dishonest post. Well I knew when Lewis' car broke down yet again and he was taken out yet again and yet another 12s pitstop put him out behind 6 cars that a few of JB's fans would wait a while then start going on about the points.

It's only bad luck/bad team work that's stopped Lewis being wdc this year. Lewis is far stronger mentally, you only have to compare 2009 with 2007 or 8, or watch Jenson being pushed around in moves they just don't pull on Lewis.

The team leader thing is nonsense, JB is way behind in setup that's how they all ended up poring over Lewis' settings and telemetry. JB is older, that's all, and McLaren love his smile.

And don't give me 'racecraft', they and their RE's both make some good calls and some bad ones. What happens is that in a handful of races JB actually runs in front of Lewis and then everyone goes Oooh Ahhh look at THAT!!!

#454 f1fastestlap

f1fastestlap
  • Member

  • 1,795 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:25

I find this quite a dishonest post. Well I knew when Lewis' car broke down yet again and he was taken out yet again and yet another 12s pitstop put him out behind 6 cars that a few of JB's fans would wait a while then start going on about the points.

It's only bad luck/bad team work that's stopped Lewis being wdc this year. Lewis is far stronger mentally, you only have to compare 2009 with 2007 or 8, or watch Jenson being pushed around in moves they just don't pull on Lewis.

The team leader thing is nonsense, JB is way behind in setup that's how they all ended up poring over Lewis' settings and telemetry. JB is older, that's all, and McLaren love his smile.

And don't give me 'racecraft', they and their RE's both make some good calls and some bad ones. What happens is that in a handful of races JB actually runs in front of Lewis and then everyone goes Oooh Ahhh look at THAT!!!

:up:

#455 Rocket73

Rocket73
  • Member

  • 1,460 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:38

wow talk about hitting a nerve

#456 f1fastestlap

f1fastestlap
  • Member

  • 1,795 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:46

wow talk about hitting a nerve


Yeah BS talking does that...

#457 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 8,140 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:59

Hamilton is the one supposedly miles ahead of Jenson with Jenson not in his league etc. etc. etc. Yet, the the points tally doesn't reflect this.


"Supposedly miles ahaed"..... I've never argued that: in fact I pointed out that JB wouldn't be beaten easily on track before a wheel was turned way back in 2010, so I guess you are arguing against one extreme view which I don't share anyway. But I could also point out that Hamilton was hindered this year by little that could be attributed to his ability or lack of 'completeness'- there's more that can influence points tallys than mere speed and racecraft. Still, he finished ahead in the standings on 2/3 years together despite his shortcomings. He had a bad 2011, JB had a bad 2012, and unfortunately McLaren had a fairly shocking 2012 operationally.

#458 Dalton007

Dalton007
  • Member

  • 2,914 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:49

I find this quite a dishonest post. Well I knew when Lewis' car broke down yet again and he was taken out yet again and yet another 12s pitstop put him out behind 6 cars that a few of JB's fans would wait a while then start going on about the points.


Can we stop with this coulda, woulda, shoulda -- Until the car crosses the finish line, anything could happen, e.g. driver looses concentration and spins off. That being said, Lewis should have won the WDC this year - he was superior in all areas this year.



#459 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 2,036 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 28 December 2012 - 13:08

Button is lacking in pace compared to Hamilton... perhaps the quickest of all the drivers on the grid now. It's not that Button isn't quick. It's not that Alonso isn't quick.

I'm comparing the two drivers and not making absolute statements/claims even if they seem that way from my admittedly dodgy wording. For me, Hamilton's speed doesn't make up for his other issues and this is why he's not as successful as he could be given the equipment that he's had at his disposal since his career's start. Button makes up for his pace through his strength in other areas. One could actually argue that neither of them are complete since Button's lack of pace compared to Hamilton is too much. I don't have much of an issue with that POV actually.

I'd not at all be surprised if they continued to score similarly in the points given a chance at another season. But we'll never know. For me, their pretty much equal performance level as a result of a different mix of strength/weaknesses is a point well made.


The bolded doesn't make sense to me. If they've been equally matched in points and overall results (with LH probably having more lost than JB due to factors outside driver control) how come Button's strengths make up for his weaknesses but Hamilton's don't?

Advertisement

#460 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 28 December 2012 - 13:30

Can we stop with this coulda, woulda, shoulda -- Until the car crosses the finish line, anything could happen, e.g. driver looses concentration and spins off. That being said, Lewis should have won the WDC this year - he was superior in all areas this year.

We can, of course, if people also stop the 'points tell the story' fakery.

#461 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 5,158 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 28 December 2012 - 14:23

I find this quite a delusional post. Well I knew when Lewis' car broke down yet again and he was taken out yet again and yet another 12s pitstop put him out behind 6 cars that a few of JB's fans would wait a while then start going on about the points.

It's only bad luck/bad team work that's stopped Lewis being wdc this year. Lewis is far stronger mentally, you only have to compare 2009 with 2007 or 8, or watch Jenson being pushed around in moves they just don't pull on Lewis.

The team leader thing is nonsense, JB is way behind in setup that's how they all ended up poring over Lewis' settings and telemetry. JB is older, that's all, and McLaren love his smile.

And don't give me 'racecraft', they and their RE's both make some good calls and some bad ones. What happens is that in a handful of races JB actually runs in front of Lewis and then everyone goes Oooh Ahhh look at THAT!!!


Yeah, McLaren like Jenson because he's older and has a nice smile :D

#462 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 5,158 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 28 December 2012 - 14:24

We can, of course, if people also stop the 'points tell the story' fakery.

Not the whole story but most definitely part of it.

#463 ali_M

ali_M
  • Member

  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 28 December 2012 - 14:32

The bolded doesn't make sense to me. If they've been equally matched in points and overall results (with LH probably having more lost than JB due to factors outside driver control) how come Button's strengths make up for his weaknesses but Hamilton's don't?


Gee... I see that there are some ssssseriously touchy Hamilton fans here. :)

If he were as strong as Button in the areas where Button shines, it wouldn't be Alonso that's enjoying the status as best F1 driver in the paddock today. Hamilton has TREMENDOUS potential. In terms of capability, he is the best among them in my view but he's not yet consistently performing at his full potential IMO. He was better this year, but this is just one year. For me, Hamilton has disappointed and it will take more than a year of consistent performance for me to be happy with him. I am more critical of him than other drivers because I consider him so highly capable. If he's truly consistent, I think he'd be devastating to the paddock. Unfortunately, for three years he gets similar results to Button.

As a general response in light of some of the responses I've read to my comments:
I've been simply expressing my opinion. Challenge it, sure. But claiming dishonesty? Come on. There's no point in my being dishonest here, from my POV anyway. If you don't understand my opinion then let's clear it up then. You don't have to agree with it in the end but I think it's possible that I can be understood rather than claimed as being dishonest.

#464 ali_M

ali_M
  • Member

  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 28 December 2012 - 14:33

Not the whole story but most definitely part of it.


Over a 3 year stint, it tells a LOT of it.

We tend to remember highlights and can be pretty darned biased in favour of a particular driver. This is why the points system works quite well. Over a season of 20 races, it's not bad. Over 3 yrs, it can be very insightful. It can become quite the bickering contest when it's analysed in any other way and this is why a 3yr stint as teammates make for such a nice comparison. The drivers themselves repeatedly say that who comes out as champion in the end, deserves it because it's a long season. Bad and good fortunes, whether it be mechanical, mental, race incident based, tend to balance out over the season. They say this about a single season and I tend to agree when looking at it. 3 yrs is even that much better.

I remember at the 3rd to last race this year, SPEED put up a tally of statistics for Vettel vs Alonso. I was stunned at how similar their seasons had been to date in terms of wins, podiums and DNF's. I simply didn't see it that way at the time, but the points certainly did since they had scored similarly up until then.

From what I'm reading, for some, it would seem the final stats tell the story only when convenient. As soon as our favoured driver isn't showing up as well as we would have thought based on not 10 races but 3 FULL season of races, we start to claim dishonesty when the focus is on the bottom line. We begin to, IMO, over-analyse and make excuses. That's where I think the dishonesty lies while claiming dishonesty elsewhere. I'm pretty sure that if Button turned out to be inferior by points, then this would be immediately pointed out by the same who claim fakery or similar.

Edited by ali_M, 28 December 2012 - 14:52.


#465 f1fastestlap

f1fastestlap
  • Member

  • 1,795 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 28 December 2012 - 14:36

Gee... I see that there are some ssssseriously touchy Hamilton fans here. :)

If he were as strong as Button in the areas where Button shines, it wouldn't be Alonso that's enjoying the status as best F1 driver in the paddock today. Hamilton has TREMENDOUS potential. In terms of capability, he is the best among them in my view but he's not yet consistently performing at his full potential IMO. He was better this year, but this is just one year. For me, Hamilton has disappointed and it will take more than a year of consistent performance for me to be happy with him. I am more critical of him than other drivers because I consider him so highly capable. If he's truly consistent, I think he'd be devastating to the paddock. Unfortunately, for three years he gets similar results to Button.

As a general response in light of some of the responses I've read to my comments:
I've been simply expressing my opinion. Challenge it, sure. But claiming dishonesty? Come on. There's no point in my being dishonest here, from my POV anyway. If you don't understand my opinion then let's clear it up then. You don't have to agree with it in the end but I think it's possible that I can be understood rather than claimed as being dishonest.


Glad button can make you happy with his brilliant years of consistent "balanced" performance....

#466 ali_M

ali_M
  • Member

  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 28 December 2012 - 15:33

Glad button can make you happy with his brilliant years of consistent "balanced" performance....


I'm not a particular fan of either driver actually.

You're over reacting there. I made no such claim. Maybe if you read my comments with less emotion they'd come across better for you in that they'd come across in a less extreme way. Those with an extreme viewpoint will take the views of others in an extreme light. My own comments aren't emotional at all. Without caring much for either driver, I'm just comparing them.

My point has been all along that I don't think either driver has been that far from the other in performance over 3yrs. I've stated my reasons for this. The points tally over THREE seasons as teammates is a testament in itself.

This is pretty similar to Prost/Senna discussions. Senna is supposedly so much better and yet, season after season they're fighting for the championship with one not particularly dominating the other.

#467 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 2,036 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 28 December 2012 - 16:02

Gee... I see that there are some ssssseriously touchy Hamilton fans here. :)


You can't be basing that on my post.

If he were as strong as Button in the areas where Button shines, it wouldn't be Alonso that's enjoying the status as best F1 driver in the paddock today.


Probably but maybe that would also be the case if Hamilton had remained Alonso's teammate or if he'd remained Kovalainen's teammate or if McLaren had been as consistent as Ferrari this year operationally and mechanically.

Hamilton has TREMENDOUS potential. In terms of capability, he is the best among them in my view but he's not yet consistently performing at his full potential IMO. He was better this year, but this is just one year. For me, Hamilton has disappointed and it will take more than a year of consistent performance for me to be happy with him. I am more critical of him than other drivers because I consider him so highly capable. If he's truly consistent, I think he'd be devastating to the paddock. Unfortunately, for three years he gets similar results to Button.


So basically because Hamilton is one of the fastest you also expect him to be equally good in every other aspect of racing? While I think that is asking a lot, I agree that he is capable of it as he has shown this season... and throughout most of his racing career in fact, minus the odd mistake (mainly in 2011).

#468 itsademo

itsademo
  • Member

  • 404 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:08

Over a 3 year stint, it tells a LOT of it.

We tend to remember highlights and can be pretty darned biased in favour of a particular driver. This is why the points system works quite well. Over a season of 20 races, it's not bad. Over 3 yrs, it can be very insightful. It can become quite the bickering contest when it's analysed in any other way and this is why a 3yr stint as teammates make for such a nice comparison. The drivers themselves repeatedly say that who comes out as champion in the end, deserves it because it's a long season. Bad and good fortunes, whether it be mechanical, mental, race incident based, tend to balance out over the season. They say this about a single season and I tend to agree when looking at it. 3 yrs is even that much better.

I remember at the 3rd to last race this year, SPEED put up a tally of statistics for Vettel vs Alonso. I was stunned at how similar their seasons had been to date in terms of wins, podiums and DNF's. I simply didn't see it that way at the time, but the points certainly did since they had scored similarly up until then.

From what I'm reading, for some, it would seem the final stats tell the story only when convenient. As soon as our favoured driver isn't showing up as well as we would have thought based on not 10 races but 3 FULL season of races, we start to claim dishonesty when the focus is on the bottom line. We begin to, IMO, over-analyse and make excuses. That's where I think the dishonesty lies while claiming dishonesty elsewhere. I'm pretty sure that if Button turned out to be inferior by points, then this would be immediately pointed out by the same who claim fakery or similar.


But its very funny how you ignore a very big part of it that does not support your view.
There is a reason why people say their are lies damn lies and stats and its because the way people use stats (just like you) to say what they want rather than using them honestly to try to see the real story.


#469 mlsnoopy

mlsnoopy
  • Member

  • 2,356 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:12

It's simple. If McLaren made less mistakes Button would finish right where he did, where as Hamilton would now be a 3 times WDC.


#470 ali_M

ali_M
  • Member

  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:52

But its very funny how you ignore a very big part of it that does not support your view.
There is a reason why people say their are lies damn lies and stats and its because the way people use stats (just like you) to say what they want rather than using them honestly to try to see the real story.


:)

An honest sharing of personal opinion on the part of each of us, usually so often leads to opposing subjective opinions on the same chain of witnessed events. This is what makes threads like these go round. All because of unavoidable bias and perfectly justifiable differences in perspective. Please don't take the moral high ground here claiming dishonesty where it doesn't exist. It would seem that you feel your way of seeing things on this issue is THE correct and ONLY correct way?

So what is it that I'm ignoring that's so important in your own view? Considering your obnoxious comment, I doubt that you even understand my own view anyway.

#471 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 5,158 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 29 December 2012 - 17:06

It's simple. If McLaren made less mistakes Button would finish right where he did, where as Hamilton would now be a 3 times WDC.

lulz

#472 MP422

MP422
  • Member

  • 1,744 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 29 December 2012 - 17:48

It's simple. If McLaren made less mistakes Button would finish right where he did, where as Hamilton would now be a 3 times WDC.


Indeed.

#473 halifaxf1fan

halifaxf1fan
  • Member

  • 4,846 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 29 December 2012 - 18:18

Glad button can make you happy with his brilliant years of consistent "balanced" performance....



But this then is Hamilton's problem, Button really isn't seen as a 'top tier' driver, he is good but not the best, yet over the three seasons he outpointed Hamilton.

If Hamilton was as good as he is hyped to be, the best of the best, then this shouldn't even been close.

It will be very interesting in 2013 to see how Hamilton and Button compare to their new teammates.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 29 December 2012 - 18:20.


#474 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 8,140 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 29 December 2012 - 18:33

It will be very interesting in 2013 to see how Hamilton and Button compare to their new teammates.


It's not as if Hamilton is the only teammate Button has ever had.

#475 halifaxf1fan

halifaxf1fan
  • Member

  • 4,846 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 29 December 2012 - 21:58

It's not as if Hamilton is the only teammate Button has ever had.



That is true, but it has been three years with Button and seeing how they stack up against new benchmarks will be interesting.

#476 moorsey

moorsey
  • Member

  • 623 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 30 December 2012 - 11:09

:)

An honest sharing of personal opinion on the part of each of us, usually so often leads to opposing subjective opinions on the same chain of witnessed events. This is what makes threads like these go round. All because of unavoidable bias and perfectly justifiable differences in perspective. Please don't take the moral high ground here claiming dishonesty where it doesn't exist. It would seem that you feel your way of seeing things on this issue is THE correct and ONLY correct way?

So what is it that I'm ignoring that's so important in your own view? Considering your obnoxious comment, I doubt that you even understand my own view anyway.


How about the car failures and team cock ups which had nothing to do with Lewis' driving but cost him a mountain of points?
I can't believe that anyone can be so biased that they can't accept these as facts. :stoned:

#477 ali_M

ali_M
  • Member

  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 30 December 2012 - 14:03

How about the car failures and team cock ups which had nothing to do with Lewis' driving but cost him a mountain of points?
I can't believe that anyone can be so biased that they can't accept these as facts. :stoned:


I balance this out with Button's mid-season slump. We tend to blame the team for when the car overtly breaks, but not when there are setup issues plaguing a particular driver for a long series of races. That's all the drivers fault of course, some say!! It's a long three years indeed.

#478 MrPodium

MrPodium
  • Member

  • 438 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 30 December 2012 - 14:37

I balance this out with Button's mid-season slump. We tend to blame the team for when the car overtly breaks, but not when there are setup issues plaguing a particular driver for a long series of races. That's all the drivers fault of course, some say!! It's a long three years indeed.


How can you possibly equate a driver under performing as "balancing out" against mechanical failures of his teammate?

I bet you somehow don't apply the same unusual brand of logic when reviewing the 2011 season.

#479 ali_M

ali_M
  • Member

  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 30 December 2012 - 14:55

How can you possibly equate a driver under performing as "balancing out" against mechanical failures of his teammate?

I bet you somehow don't apply the same unusual brand of logic when reviewing the 2011 season.


Hmmm. Spa, as an example, for Hamilton this year was a shucks moment. He got caught out on the setup... a team cockup. I personally consistently do not blame poor setup on drivers alone. IMO, it's grossly unfair to do so. Maybe you do ... but I don't. I'm not sure what you're getting at with 2011. In 2011, Hamilton had serious issues mentally which showed in how he drove his races. He blamed this on his then tumultuous personal life. But that's the past. He seemed a lot better this year.

Advertisement

#480 senna da silva

senna da silva
  • Member

  • 4,431 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 30 December 2012 - 16:04

So much unnecessary noise in this thread.
Hamilton is a consistently faster driver than Button. End of.

#481 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 3,394 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 30 December 2012 - 16:10

It's simple. If McLaren made less mistakes Button would finish right where he did, where as Hamilton would now be a 3 times WDC.


McLaren made no mistakes which affected Jenson?

They were doing it on purpose?

That's a new twist on Whitmarsh conspiracy theories!! :lol:

#482 ali_M

ali_M
  • Member

  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 30 December 2012 - 16:16

So much unnecessary noise in this thread.
Hamilton is a consistently faster driver than Button. End of.


Both points, I agree with. :)

#483 techspeed

techspeed
  • Member

  • 372 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 30 December 2012 - 16:44

McLaren made no mistakes which affected Jenson?

They were doing it on purpose?

That's a new twist on Whitmarsh conspiracy theories!! :lol:

Conspiracy theories that McLaren were throwing away points, and therefore FOM money, by deliberately hindering Hamilton aren't new. They've been around since McLaren promoted some of its employees way back in 2009.

#484 techspeed

techspeed
  • Member

  • 372 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 30 December 2012 - 17:05

So much unnecessary noise in this thread.
Hamilton is a consistently faster driver than Button. End of.

Can't see anyone disagreeing with this. Hamilton is the faster of the two, lap times and race results prove this. The big problem is that the difference is not as big as certain fans think it should be.

The seasons over, the past three years is over, the results have been written. Bickering over where each driver should have scored extra points isn't going to change the result but it seems to help fans feel their favourite is better somehow.

I suspect next year the McLaren threads might be a bit quieter without board members wanting most of the team sacked because their favourite driver doesn't have an easy life. Any bets on how long there will be calls for Ross Brawn/Bob Bell/Jock Clear to be sacked. :lol:

Edited by techspeed, 30 December 2012 - 17:05.


#485 lewymp4

lewymp4
  • Member

  • 520 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 30 December 2012 - 19:03

So much unnecessary noise in this thread.
Hamilton is a consistently faster driver than Button. End of.

So true....Many seem to have a hard time with coming to grips with that reality!


#486 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 16,408 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:01

So true....Many seem to have a hard time with coming to grips with that reality!

Names please, by PM if you like.

#487 03011969

03011969
  • Member

  • 440 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 31 December 2012 - 11:30

So much unnecessary noise in this thread.
Hamilton is beyond any criticism whatsoever and even if he has been beaten on points over 3 seasons, I will scream and scream and scream until you all declare Lewis is the son of God and the greatest thing ever to have existed on planet Earth.

Just helped to clarify what you really meant.



Names please, by PM if you like.

Given the aim of the game in F1 (if you want to win championships) is to acquire the most *points*, Button's talent for winning more of them than Hamilton appears to be the most useful.

Button may not be *quicker*, than Lewis over a lap or a race, but so what? It's like one footballer ('soccer for 'Merkins) being quicker than another - it's a nice bonus but scoring points/goals is how success is measured.

Once Lewis can improve his ability to convert his speed into more points he'll be a better overall driver. Until then, over a substantial period of 3 seasons, Button has proved himself to be the better driver. Not the quicker, but the better.

And there are still many, many here who can't grasp that.

Right, got my shields up, fire away...

Edited by 3011969, 31 December 2012 - 11:35.


#488 garoidb

garoidb
  • Member

  • 3,550 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 31 December 2012 - 11:33

Can't see anyone disagreeing with this. Hamilton is the faster of the two, lap times and race results prove this. The big problem is that the difference is not as big as certain fans think it should be.


Or as important.



#489 revlec

revlec
  • Member

  • 2,721 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 31 December 2012 - 12:06

Or as important.

:up:

as long as they make stupid tyres(don't bring the old days, because the technology was the best at the time) and use DRS...  ;)

Think of races where drivers had to push 100% (Canada 2010, Turkey 2010, China 2011, Nurburgring 2011, Austin 2012, etc... ) and guess who was the winner.

_

I have no doubt we share different opinions about how F1 should be (combat in full speed, with solid tyres and without DRS is mine).


#490 Juggles

Juggles
  • Member

  • 896 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 31 December 2012 - 12:32

Given the aim of the game in F1 (if you want to win championships) is to acquire the most *points*, Button's talent for winning more of them than Hamilton appears to be the most useful.

Button may not be *quicker*, than Lewis over a lap or a race, but so what? It's like one footballer ('soccer for 'Merkins) being quicker than another - it's a nice bonus but scoring points/goals is how success is measured.

Once Lewis can improve his ability to convert his speed into more points he'll be a better overall driver. Until then, over a substantial period of 3 seasons, Button has proved himself to be the better driver. Not the quicker, but the better.

And there are still many, many here who can't grasp that.

Right, got my shields up, fire away...


This only holds if the number of points a driver collects is dictated solely by the level of his performance, a view that can't be held by a thinking person. I knew the history refraction brigade would crawl out of the woodwork eventually, I just didn't expect it to be so soon.

#491 senna da silva

senna da silva
  • Member

  • 4,431 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 31 December 2012 - 13:14

Button may not be *quicker*,
Not the quicker,

And there are still many, many here who can't grasp that.


:up:

#492 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 16,408 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 31 December 2012 - 13:37

If you want sensible discussion, that's not going to achieve it, senna da silva.

Who exactly are the many, many people who don't grasp it please?



#493 senna da silva

senna da silva
  • Member

  • 4,431 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 31 December 2012 - 13:42

If you want sensible discussion, that's not going to achieve it, senna da silva.

Who exactly are the many, many people who don't grasp it please?


How is listing names going to result in sensible discussion?
How is going on and on and disingenuously clinging to one stat sensible discussion?

#494 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 16,408 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 31 December 2012 - 13:44

No, I didn't think you'd be able to.

#495 senna da silva

senna da silva
  • Member

  • 4,431 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 31 December 2012 - 13:49

No, I didn't think you'd be able to.


You've been in this thread for sometime, its obvious who the revisionists are, it exists on this very page.
Your McCarthyism approach is a little unnerving.

#496 itsademo

itsademo
  • Member

  • 404 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 31 December 2012 - 13:50

Given the aim of the game in F1 (if you want to win championships) is to acquire the most *points*, Button's talent for winning more of them than Hamilton appears to be the most useful.

Button may not be *quicker*, than Lewis over a lap or a race, but so what? It's like one footballer ('soccer for 'Merkins) being quicker than another - it's a nice bonus but scoring points/goals is how success is measured.

Once Lewis can improve his ability to convert his speed into more points he'll be a better overall driver. Until then, over a substantial period of 3 seasons, Button has proved himself to be the better driver. Not the quicker, but the better.


Points may make prizes but they don't tell the whole story or even most of it despite what some claim
Clearly you failed to watch last season otherwise you would understand how many errors each driver made and how many errors the team made
But for those with selective memory its easy to ignore the fact when the team mess up a pit stop (when the driver has stopped on his mark and in the right pit too) or fail to spot a broken part on the car for two races its not an error or fault of the driver.
Only fools and fanboys would even try to claim its been as close as the points show over the three years.
First two years yes 1-1 and Jenson clearly out performed Lewis last year but this year without those team errors lewis would have destroyed Jenson and most likely had a 2nd WDC
Most knowledgeable F1 commentators estimate the team have cost Lewis over 100 points alone this season
that 100 points that lewis failed to gain due to errors outside Lewis's control.
But of course fanboys will either ignore that fact or try to say well Jenson's dip in form was nothing to do with Jenson despite Lewis in the same car at the same team showing how much faster it was in his hands.

Lewis lost far more points due to the teams errors and Jenson lost points due to his set up errors or just being too slow.

Edited by itsademo, 31 December 2012 - 13:55.


#497 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 16,408 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 31 December 2012 - 13:57

You've been in this thread for sometime, its obvious who the revisionists are, it exists on this very page.
Your McCarthyism approach is a little unnerving.

No, I can't see anyone claiming what you've tried to suggest in your brutally dishonest edit.

Understanding who has made the claims that Button is quicker than Hamilton helps us to understand whether they were discusiing particular situations or circumstances or whether there are finer points to the argument which we need to understand. Except we can't do that, because you can't point out the many, many posts or posters.

#498 tifosiMac

tifosiMac
  • Member

  • 6,545 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 31 December 2012 - 14:01

So much petty arguing. Jensen and Lewis are brilliant racing driver, Lewis is just slightly better. There appears to be Hamilton fans rubbishing Jensen and vice versa but it doesn't take anything away from what we have seen in the last three years.

#499 senna da silva

senna da silva
  • Member

  • 4,431 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 31 December 2012 - 14:08

QUOTE (senna da silva @ Dec 30 2012, 16:04)
So much unnecessary noise in this thread.
Hamilton is beyond any criticism whatsoever and even if he has been beaten on points over 3 seasons, I will scream and scream and scream until you all declare Lewis is the son of God and the greatest thing ever to have existed on planet Earth.

Just helped to clarify what you really meant.


That is the brutally dishonest edit.

Advertisement

#500 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 8,140 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 31 December 2012 - 14:24

And there are still many, many here who can't grasp that.


:yawnface: Yeah, yeah, you want to emphasise points. Hamilton scored more points than Button than 2/3 seasons together. Can you grasp that? Sure, JB scored more over their entire time together, but as a demonstration of how close it was that total swung in his favour by something as simple as Hulkenberg spinning in Brazil and taking Hamilton out, and all the twists and turns inbetween.

Unfortunately this topic is hung up on '3 year points total' as the only stat that counts, a clear indication that JB was superior, and therefore there isn't really much discussion based on a 'retrospective view of their time as teammates'. There was more to it than mere points totals and statistics. Perhaps people got more fun from watching points tables than ontrack action? What about all of their on-track battles? Anybody? Nobody. I already tried.