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Jenson v's Lewis - a retrospective view of their time as team mates


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#501 maverick69

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 14:28

:yawnface: Yeah, yeah, you want to emphasise points. Hamilton scored more points than Button than 2/3 seasons together. Can you grasp that? Sure, JB scored more over their entire time together, but as a demonstration of how close it was that total swung in his favour by something as simple as Hulkenberg spinning in Brazil and taking Hamilton out, and all the twists and turns inbetween.

Unfortunately this topic is hung up on '3 year points total' as the only stat that counts, a clear indication that JB was superior, and therefore there isn't really much discussion based on a 'retrospective view of their time as teammates'. There was more to it than mere points totals and statistics. Perhaps people got more fun from watching points tables than ontrack action? What about all of their on-track battles? Anybody? Nobody. I already tried.


Indeed.........


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#502 Lazy

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 15:16

:yawnface: Yeah, yeah, you want to emphasise points. Hamilton scored more points than Button than 2/3 seasons together. Can you grasp that? Sure, JB scored more over their entire time together, but as a demonstration of how close it was that total swung in his favour by something as simple as Hulkenberg spinning in Brazil and taking Hamilton out, and all the twists and turns inbetween.

Unfortunately this topic is hung up on '3 year points total' as the only stat that counts, a clear indication that JB was superior, and therefore there isn't really much discussion based on a 'retrospective view of their time as teammates'. There was more to it than mere points totals and statistics. Perhaps people got more fun from watching points tables than ontrack action? What about all of their on-track battles? Anybody? Nobody. I already tried.


But it only seems to be LH fans claiming that other, apparently imaginary, people are saying that.

You've been in this thread for sometime, its obvious who the revisionists are, it exists on this very page.
Your McCarthyism approach is a little unnerving.


The revisionists are pretty much all LH fans, JB fans are, in general, happy with the results as they stand.

#503 Buttoneer

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 15:18

Just helped to clarify what you really meant.



That is the brutally dishonest edit.

You didn't say that, and it doesn't appear to represent what you said, but the post is aimed at you and it can be addressed directly, surely?

It still doesn't help resolve this thorny issue of the many, many people who think Button is a quicker driver than Hamilton, a charge that you and others keep throwing out there with no apparent target. I'd like to know who you're arguing with on that one, because it's not clear to me that anyone disagrees.

What we might disagree on is whether that's the 'end of' and I suggest this is the target of 3011969's comment.

#504 maverick69

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 15:22

But it only seems to be LH fans claiming that other, apparently imaginary, people are saying that.


From this very page:

Once Lewis can improve his ability to convert his speed into more points he'll be a better overall driver. Until then, over a substantial period of 3 seasons, Button has proved himself to be the better driver. Not the quicker, but the better.


Unless I'm imagining things of course........



#505 senna da silva

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 15:24

You didn't say that, and it doesn't appear to represent what you said, but the post is aimed at you and it can be addressed directly, surely?

It still doesn't help resolve this thorny issue of the many, many people who think Button is a quicker driver than Hamilton, a charge that you and others keep throwing out there with no apparent target. I'd like to know who you're arguing with on that one, because it's not clear to me that anyone disagrees.

What we might disagree on is whether that's the 'end of' and I suggest this is the target of 3011969's comment.


I personally never said many, many people. It was a direct quote from 3011969.

Clinging to one stat is disingenuous, I could argue all day that Eddie Ervine outscored Michael Schumacher in 1999 so he must have been a better driver that year. But its not true.

#506 flatlander48

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 15:31

In case this hasn't been presented before:

While Button has been at McLaren:

Wins: 10 to 5, Hamilton
Poles: 8 to 1, Hamilton
Fast/Laps: 9 to 6, Hamilton
Podiums: 25 to 22, Button
Points: 672 to 657, Button
WDC: 5, 2, 5, Button; 4, 5, 4, Hamilton
Average WDC finish: 4.3 to 4.0, Hamilton

Button has scored 15 more points in 3 years. This represents 2.2% or the points from ONE 3rd place finish. Statistically I don't believe that is enough of a difference to prove anything beyond essentially even.

#507 Lazy

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 16:34

In case this hasn't been presented before:

While Button has been at McLaren:

Wins: 10 to 8, Hamilton
Poles: 8 to 1, Hamilton
Fast/Laps: 9 to 6, Hamilton
Podiums: 25 to 22, Button
Points: 672 to 657, Button
WDC: 5, 2, 5, Button; 4, 5, 4, Hamilton
Average WDC finish: Hamilton 4.3 Button 4

Button has scored 15 more points in 3 years. This represents 2.2% or the points from ONE 3rd place finish. Statistically I don't believe that is enough of a difference to prove anything beyond essentially even.


Just a couple of corrections.

Edited by Lazy, 31 December 2012 - 16:39.


#508 Lazy

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 16:36

From this very page:



Unless I'm imagining things of course........


Damn :)

Still, it is a rare opinion on this thread and not representative of the general consensus amongst JB fans,

#509 techspeed

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 16:44

From this very page:



Unless I'm imagining things of course........

I'm with Buttoneer on this. Can you explain how

Once Lewis can improve his ability to convert his speed into more points he'll be a better overall driver. Until then, over a substantial period of 3 seasons, Button has proved himself to be the better driver. Not the quicker, but the better.

is proof of senna da silvas claim that many posters are claiming Button is faster? 3011969 also states previously in the whole quote itself that Hamilton is faster.

#510 Buttoneer

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 17:07

I'm with Buttoneer on this. Can you explain how

is proof of senna da silvas claim that many posters are claiming Button is faster? 3011969 also states previously in the whole quote itself that Hamilton is faster.

There are parallel arguments running. The initial comment was that 'many, many' people need to grasp that Hamilton is the faster driver. I don't see anyone claiming that, and it's easily refuted anyway. Some are saying that Button is the better or more complete driver, a claim which is harder to dismiss out of hand in view of the points. This is being argued by Lazy and 3011969.

#511 senna da silva

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 17:34

From 1997 to 1999 a three year period as a direct comparison, Eddie Irvine scored 145 points whereas Michael Schumacher scored 130. Obviously Irvine is the better driver.
I'm clearly being obtuse but hopefully you get the point.

Edited by senna da silva, 31 December 2012 - 17:38.


#512 trogggy

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 17:55

From 1997 to 1999 a three year period as a direct comparison, Eddie Irvine scored 145 points whereas Michael Schumacher scored 130. Obviously Irvine is the better driver.
I'm clearly being obtuse but hopefully you get the point.

I don't remember Lewis missing 6 races and having a year's points removed since JB arrived, but if you think that's a fair comparison then hey-ho.

#513 Lazy

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 17:58

There are parallel arguments running. The initial comment was that 'many, many' people need to grasp that Hamilton is the faster driver. I don't see anyone claiming that, and it's easily refuted anyway. Some are saying that Button is the better or more complete driver, a claim which is harder to dismiss out of hand in view of the points. This is being argued by Lazy and 3011969.


Actually my position is that Lewis shades Jenson as an overall package, Lewis is definitely faster but Jenson has other strengths that very nearly make up the difference.

If I was a TP I would choose Hamilton with the proviso that I don't know how much his attitude was a problem for McLaren and was it one reason why they were less than decisive in resigning him.

#514 senna da silva

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 18:21

I don't remember Lewis missing 6 races and having a year's points removed since JB arrived, but if you think that's a fair comparison then hey-ho.


None of that matters only the fact of the final point tally, we couldn't possibly take into account what actually happened on track.  ;)

#515 trogggy

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 18:23

None of that matters only the fact of the final point tally, we couldn't possibly take into account what actually happened on track. ;)

Who has said that?
Presumably loads of people...
Or will that turn out to be a secret too?

#516 P123

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 18:30

Actually my position is that Lewis shades Jenson as an overall package, Lewis is definitely faster but Jenson has other strengths that very nearly make up the difference.


I think that's a fair assessment, and one that the stats can be used to back-up:

Wins- Hamilton 10/ Button 8
Poles-Hamilton 9/ Button 1
Podiums- Button 25/ Hamilton 22
F/L- Hamilton 9/ Button 6
Points- Button 672/ Hamilton 657
Races Led- Hamilton 20/ Button 19
Laps Led- Hamilton 479/ Button 369
Retirements- Button 8/ Hamilton 13
Ahead when both finish: Hamilton 24/ Button 13
Highest WDC position: Button 2nd/ Hamilton 4th
Ahead in standings: Hamilton 2/ Button 1

Edited by P123, 31 December 2012 - 18:33.


#517 senna da silva

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 18:30

Who has said that?
Presumably loads of people...
Or will that turn out to be a secret too?


Enough have said it, read through the thread and previous iterations, you'll find plenty of examples, there's even one on this page.  ;)

#518 trogggy

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 18:35

Enough have said it, read through the thread and previous iterations, you'll find plenty of examples, there's even one on this page.;)

Rubbish.
Anyone saying points are the only thing that matter when comparing performance are either lost, dim or trolling. Claiming that 'enough have said it' is just the other side of that ridiculous coin.
How many JB fans posting regularly here have said it? Just a rough estimate will do.

Edited by trogggy, 31 December 2012 - 18:36.


#519 ali_M

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 19:36

Enough have said it, read through the thread and previous iterations, you'll find plenty of examples, there's even one on this page. ;)


You read in a very selective way. This is your problem, it would seem. I've personally put a lot of weight in that points tally and I've given my reasons. My posts are typically quite long and for a reason. I've been accused of dishonesty but what you're doing here is a gross misrepresentation of other posters here and when you're taken to task about it, you proceed to do so even more????

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#520 Rinehart

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:11

So much unnecessary noise in this thread.
Hamilton is a consistently faster driver than Button. End of.


Ok, not only is that blatantly false, but it also isn't the only criteria on which drivers are judged. Yes Hamilton appears to be quicker over a lap more often than not, but consistently faster to the chequered flag? That is another matter. He doesn't even make it to the chequered flag as consistently as Button...

Until you get it into your head that the object of the exercise in F1 is to score as many points as possible over 20 x 200km races around world on different tracks, under different conditions, with an evolving car and essentially as a consequence of 500 people and mechanical parts working together, with the driver acting as the operator, you won't learn. Telling us Hamilton is faster (so he must be best) is like telling us that Bubba Watson has a longer drive than Rory McLroy so he is best.

Clearly F1 is very simple to you and so you think this debate should be too. I think its complex, because there are so many layers to consider.

Bottom line is the Team Principles and other respected voices of F1 seem to be a lot nearer to my opinion - that there is not a lot between Button and Hamilton overall, than yours. That should tell you something.



#521 Rinehart

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:26

Enough have said it, read through the thread and previous iterations, you'll find plenty of examples, there's even one on this page. ;)


I really don't care how unfashionable or mockable you think my point of view is. I know its similar to the key people in F1. That's more than enough of a sanity check for me.... However I think I qualify as one of your "examples"...

I think the fact they scored a similar number of points and wins over their time together is a significant fact and pretty representative: 1. Given that ultimately neither driver made the big difference and won a title. 2. Given that Jenson was new to McLaren in 2010 and suffered a tyre-set-up black hole this year. 3. Given that Hamilton lost his head for a while and suffered greater unreliability, which can't all be explained by luck. I'm not saying the points are accurate on a race by race basis, because they're not, but over 3 years the picture I have is that they are pretty close and the statistics bear that out. I've said before that Hamilton wins 2 sets to 1 in my book. I have no problem with that, but lets not let the recent memory of 2012 cloud the memory of 2011 for instance. Hamiltion edges it overall, but as drivers they seem pretty even, via very different approaches and skill sets. I couldn't bet on which one will win another title next. They both have it in them. I think Hamilton has the POTENTIAL to go on to finish his career as the better driver, but he hasn't realised a lot of this obvious potential YET. Will Mercedes allow him to do it? Possibly, but its also a possibility that Button could win the title with McLaren in 2013. Mock away boy... don't forget to copy in the paddock.

#522 Nemo1965

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:11


In this thread I have missed the historical view. There have been poignant examples of teammates of which one was the faster driver (meaning: qualifying) and the other, by hook or by crook or by luck or by skill, somehow anyway knew to match the other. Prost was always faster than Lauda, I believe the average is 1.5 seconds in qualifying, but still Lauda won the championship in 1984. Senna was faster than Prost, but their battle ended in a draw. Hamilton is faster in qualifying than Button, and though Hamilton has the slight edge, Button outscored him in points in their three years together.

I do understand the frustration of some Hamilton-fans that Grand Prix victories have lost of their importance, by virtue of the points-system of F1. I think the difference between 1st and 2nd place should be much larger than it is now, so that seasons like that of Hamilton this year, would reap greater awards for him. However: the F1 championship is decided by points. 1984 was another good example: Prost won seven grand prix's, Lauda 5, Lauda won the championship. In 1977 Lauda won the championship when three or four other drivers won more Grand Prix than him... Whatever system you think of (10-6-4-3-2-1 is my favourite), there were always be drivers who win Grand Prix but miss the three, four non-podium finishes that clinch the title. Lauda beat Prost in 1984 by the virtue of half a point, I believe...

As a comfort, the same is true in tennis. I saw a match between Amalgro and Nadal. Amalgro served a higher percentage in, with a higher percentage of winners, he hit harder, in his groundstrokes he hit more winners, he won almost as many points as Nadal... and still Nadal had him under controll, 6-4,7-5, 7-6, or something. By virtue of winning most of the points at 40-all, 40-30: the deciding points. Unfair? Well, then we should change the rules of scoring.



#523 revlec

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:22

I think the fact they scored a similar number of points and wins over their time together is a significant fact and pretty representative:
1. Given that ultimately neither driver made the big difference and won a title.
2. Given that Jenson was new to McLaren in 2010 and suffered a tyre-set-up black hole this year.
3. Given that Hamilton lost his head for a while and suffered greater unreliability, which can't all be explained by luck.


:drunk:

If anything, BUT's fans expectations were too high this year after his 2011 campaign(or if you prefer, HAM critics didn't know how good he is until this year).
How many times did BUT retire this year(2012) when leading a race?

I love how the total points table were posted on this forum mainly when BUT was in front. Then it disappeared, only to come back at the end of the year after consecutives DNF for HAM.  ;)

_
About being new in the team in 2010, it's a total excuse( HAM will be fast from day 1).
RAI won the last WDC for Ferrari in 2007 when he was the new guy in the team. ALO almost did the same being the new guy in 2010 in Ferrari.

Edited by revlec, 03 January 2013 - 11:23.


#524 flatlander48

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 13:27

They both have it in them. I think Hamilton has the POTENTIAL to go on to finish his career as the better driver, but he hasn't realised a lot of this obvious potential YET. Will Mercedes allow him to do it? Possibly, but its also a possibility that Button could win the title with McLaren in 2013.


That's a big ask considering Red Bull is still intact, Ferrari is going to be pressing because they feel 2012 was a missed opportunity (and a bit embarrassing) and Lotus/Genii (or whatever it will be) was also staked their claim with continuing improvement. I think the only way that Button wins would be by being the tallest dwarf, so to speak. In other words, if the points are spread over all 4 teams, it may not take much of a difference to lead the points table.

#525 flatlander48

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 13:47

Hamilton is faster in qualifying than Button, and though Hamilton has the slight edge, Button outscored him in points in their three years together.


15 points, 2.2% of the total or (1) 3rd place finish is the only difference here. Statistically it doesn't mean much and it wouldn't have happened saved for Button's win in the last race of the season. People say outscored like it was some major difference.

By the way, check out the ratings by Laurence Edmondson and Chris Medland of ESPN for the top drivers of 2012:

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/97791.html

Edited by flatlander48, 04 January 2013 - 01:17.


#526 senna da silva

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 20:38

I really don't care how unfashionable or mockable you think my point of view is. I know its similar to the key people in F1. That's more than enough of a sanity check for me.... However I think I qualify as one of your "examples"...

I think the fact they scored a similar number of points and wins over their time together is a significant fact and pretty representative: 1. Given that ultimately neither driver made the big difference and won a title. 2. Given that Jenson was new to McLaren in 2010 and suffered a tyre-set-up black hole this year. 3. Given that Hamilton lost his head for a while and suffered greater unreliability, which can't all be explained by luck. I'm not saying the points are accurate on a race by race basis, because they're not, but over 3 years the picture I have is that they are pretty close and the statistics bear that out. I've said before that Hamilton wins 2 sets to 1 in my book. I have no problem with that, but lets not let the recent memory of 2012 cloud the memory of 2011 for instance. Hamiltion edges it overall, but as drivers they seem pretty even, via very different approaches and skill sets. I couldn't bet on which one will win another title next. They both have it in them. I think Hamilton has the POTENTIAL to go on to finish his career as the better driver, but he hasn't realised a lot of this obvious potential YET. Will Mercedes allow him to do it? Possibly, but its also a possibility that Button could win the title with McLaren in 2013. Mock away boy... don't forget to copy in the paddock.


Would you mind naming the key people in F1 that think this way?

#527 garoidb

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 21:00

15 points, 2.2% of the total or (1) 3rd place finish is the only difference here. Statistically it doesn't mean much and it would have happened saved for Button's win in the last race of the season. People say outscored like it was some major difference.


Statistically, the lead Lewis would have gained had he not DNFed the Brazil race wouldn't mean much either. The closeness of the totals is what is striking, regardless of which one was to be ahead.

Anyway, I don't think these have been stellar years for either driver. Neither of them gained a WDC or a major career milestone. Both will hope to add a further WDC, and in the end these years will not be a major feature of their career highlights reel.

#528 Watkins74

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 21:05

Statistically, the lead Lewis would have gained had he not DNFed the Brazil race wouldn't mean much either. The closeness of the totals is what is striking, regardless of which one was to be ahead.

Anyway, I don't think these have been stellar years for either driver. Neither of them gained a WDC or a major career milestone. Both will hope to add a further WDC, and in the end these years will not be a major feature of their career highlights reel.

:up: A rational post. Nice job.

Edited by Watkins74, 03 January 2013 - 21:07.


#529 bub

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 21:34

Statistically, the lead Lewis would have gained had he not DNFed the Brazil race wouldn't mean much either. The closeness of the totals is what is striking, regardless of which one was to be ahead.

Anyway, I don't think these have been stellar years for either driver. Neither of them gained a WDC or a major career milestone. Both will hope to add a further WDC, and in the end these years will not be a major feature of their career highlights reel.


Performance wise in the last 2 years they both had one bad season and one arguably best season of their career to date.

Complete agree with the first part. :up:

#530 garoidb

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 22:03

Performance wise in the last 2 years they both had one bad season and one arguably best season of their career to date.

Complete agree with the first part. :up:


Do you mean Jenson in 2011 or Lewis in 2012? In any case, I was considering the three years in aggregate for both drivers, as a career segment if you like.

#531 flatlander48

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:11

Statistically, the lead Lewis would have gained had he not DNFed the Brazil race wouldn't mean much either. The closeness of the totals is what is striking, regardless of which one was to be ahead.


Yes, it just seems that saying "outscored" in the context of 15 points over 58 races is inappropriate.

#532 Rybo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:28

Statistically, the lead Lewis would have gained had he not DNFed the Brazil race wouldn't mean much either. The closeness of the totals is what is striking, regardless of which one was to be ahead.

Anyway, I don't think these have been stellar years for either driver. Neither of them gained a WDC or a major career milestone. Both will hope to add a further WDC, and in the end these years will not be a major feature of their career highlights reel.


Besides Vettel it really hasnt been a good three years for anyone, but I think the former Mclaren duo had a pretty good run. 58 straight points finishes is nothing to scoff at.

#533 garoidb

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:07

Besides Vettel it really hasnt been a good three years for anyone, but I think the former Mclaren duo had a pretty good run. 58 straight points finishes is nothing to scoff at.


I think Alonso has also enhanced his stature and his legacy with his 2010 and 2012 championship campaigns, but obviously not to the same extent as Vettel.

#534 tifosiMac

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:29

I think Alonso has also enhanced his stature and his legacy with his 2010 and 2012 championship campaigns, but obviously not to the same extent as Vettel.

It just goes to show how close the top guys are and how differently it would look for all of them if they had the best car.

#535 garoidb

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:51

It just goes to show how close the top guys are and how differently it would look for all of them if they had the best car.


If you are talking about Vettel, then fair enough. I'd say we will see him in less competitive machinery at some stage of his career though.

#536 tifosiMac

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:03

If you are talking about Vettel, then fair enough. I'd say we will see him in less competitive machinery at some stage of his career though.

I am. I don't think anybody here would argue Seb hasn't had the best car under him for the majority of the last 3 years. I keep saying that no team remains at the top forever and drivers rarely have the best car every single season. No doubt we'll see Seb in inferior machinery and hopefully it'll be soon. He has many critics and a period like that would be good for him.

#537 Buttoneer

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:27

Jenson & Lewis please.

#538 revlec

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:59

I think Alonso has also enhanced his stature and his legacy with his 2010 and 2012 championship campaigns, but obviously not to the same extent as Vettel.


It helps to have a team which will break your team mate's gearbox to help you...  ;)


#539 revlec

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:01

Statistically, the lead Lewis would have gained had he not DNFed the Brazil race wouldn't mean much either. The closeness of the totals is what is striking, regardless of which one was to be ahead.

Anyway, I don't think these have been stellar years for either driver. Neither of them gained a WDC or a major career milestone. Both will hope to add a further WDC, and in the end these years will not be a major feature of their career highlights reel.


I disagree..
What about Abu Dhabi? Singapore? Barcellona? It's very true people remember only your last race.... :drunk:
The amount of points Lewis has lost this season is ridiculous, and only a football fan will say otherwise.
This season has been worse than 2005 for Kimi.

Edited by revlec, 04 January 2013 - 13:06.


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#540 flatlander48

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 17:15

As I said...

By the way, check out the ratings by Laurence Edmondson and Chris Medland of ESPN for the top drivers of 2012:

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/97791.html

#541 oligc94

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 17:30

As I said...

By the way, check out the ratings by Laurence Edmondson and Chris Medland of ESPN for the top drivers of 2012:

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/97791.html


Interesting. Underrated LH and overrated JB (where have I heard that before!) :lol:

On a serious note, no way should Hamilton be below Raikkonen (nor below Vettel imo), and Button should not be in 5th...

#542 slmk

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 17:31

As I said...

By the way, check out the ratings by Laurence Edmondson and Chris Medland of ESPN for the top drivers of 2012:

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/97791.html


Hamilton 4th kinda invalidates this ranking - on driving alone, I don't think it's arguable that he's done a better job than Kimi - if you include team/car performance (ie. all-in package), then I can see why, but I thought this was a drivers' ranking - and hence should be judged on their driving.

Based on driving alone, only Alonso has a claim really - Vettel's season was too erratic and inconsistent.

Edited by slmk, 04 January 2013 - 17:32.


#543 flatlander48

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 17:39

Interesting. Underrated LH and overrated JB (where have I heard that before!) :lol:

On a serious note, no way should Hamilton be below Raikkonen (nor below Vettel imo), and Button should not be in 5th...


I think it factors in the Kimi had a further distance to come with being away for a couple of years and that Renault didn't start the season as a top tier team. Just my guess anyway...

#544 Buttoneer

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 17:39

If you want to discuss other drivers in a rating list, start a new thread if one doesn't already exist.

#545 Buttoneer

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 17:46

Posts deleted. Please take discussion of other drivers to another (or new) thread.

#546 flatlander48

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 18:30

From the Edmondson/Medland discussion, key bits of information that I think are significant...

Button:
  • "beating Lewis Hamilton in a straight fight in a dry race in Melbourne" = a positive
  • "In Malaysia .... but a needless mistake trying to pass Karthikeyan cost him any chance of points" = clearly a negative
  • "one major flaw soon surfaced; an inability to drive a car not to his liking" = a negative, but he has stated this himself during the 2011 season, I think
  • "he retired having failed to find a way past Heikki Kovalainen for 14th place" = a negative given the relative effectiveness of the 2 cars
  • "in Montreal he was lapped by Hamilton en-route to 16th as his team-mate won" = a negative
  • "dominant victory at Spa" = definitely positive
  • "first pole for McLaren" = definitely positive
  • "win in Brazil" = definitely positive

Hamilton:
  • "Take away the mechanical problems and operational errors on McLaren's side and he would have been in with a very good shot of the title in Brazil" = a positive
  • "On raw pace there were few who could match him" = a positive
  • "Button only beat him in qualifying on four occasions and three of those were due to mistakes away from the track" = a positive
  • "lined up on the front row on 11 occasions" = a positive
  • "only finished on the podium seven times" = a negative
  • "no retirements due to driver error" = a positive
  • "four well-deserved victories over the course of the year" = a positive


#547 Rybo

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:24

To summarize qualifying high up the grid and winning is good, and not doing that is bad? That must have took them a long time to get to that conclusion.

#548 flatlander48

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:33

Read closer Grasshopper...

#549 senna da silva

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:45

I think it factors in the Kimi had a further distance to come with being away for a couple of years and that Renault didn't start the season as a top tier team. Just my guess anyway...


McLaren were definitely top tier and threw away so many points from bad pitstops and mechanical failures. But how does that reflect on a driver in driver ratings?

#550 flatlander48

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:10

I think it just helps to put the situation into context.