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Jenson v's Lewis - a retrospective view of their time as team mates


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#551 Buttoneer

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 00:05

If you want to discuss other drivers in a rating list, start a new thread if one doesn't already exist.



Posts deleted. Please take discussion of other drivers to another (or new) thread.

For when saying it once, just doesn't seem to be enough.

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#552 Rinehart

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 14:29

Would you mind naming the key people in F1 that think this way?


If you're genuinely asking for "proof" then you obviously haven't followed F1 closely. You really claim you don't know of any key F1 people who rate JB highly?

My view in summary is that when all is said and done, Jenson and Lewis were pretty damn close over their 3 years together, via different means, and that both remain strong viable WDC candidates. Jenson had a difficult but not a bad season - the TP's have just voted to that effect matching my view, and pick anyone from Frank Williams, Ross Brawn, Martin Whitmarsh or Christian Horner who have, in recent times, affirmed their belief that JB is a TOP TIER driver on the current grid, consistent with my belief. Over the years, the list is far more extensive as I have posted before, with people like JYS, Prost, Richards, Ramirez, Roebuck, Lauda and Fittipaldi on it. But you have previously suffered a convenient loss of memory so I'm not going to be extensive again. Check out the old threads.


Your view on the other hand (taken mostly from the old thread) is that JB is "slow", was "made to look good" by McLaren who sabotaged Lewis in the process and would only win the Championship in a rocket ship (despite winning in without one over the course of 2009). Oh and then you cover it all off by saying anyone who doesn't agree with you, its because JB bought them dinner, hence you can't show me one respected F1 person who shares your view! I certainly haven't read anyone claim he is slow, manipulative, propped up or lucky as you think.

As I said, key F1 people hold a view much closer to mine than yours (that is being kind to you). This is mostly because they say what they don't wake up in the morning with an agenda to put Lewis at the top of the pile and Jenson at the bottom. These are serious intelligent people in the public eye.

I've said 100 times that Lewis is brilliant, faster and probably will end up with the better career legacy than Jenson if he delivers on his obvious potential. I'm really not here to argue black is white. But I can't really see you contributing anything fair. Its just "Lewis is the best, Jenson is the worst" End of. X-factor style debates don't really do if for me.




#553 ali_M

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 14:48

If you're genuinely asking for "proof" then you obviously haven't followed F1 closely. You really claim you don't know of any key F1 people who rate JB highly?

My view in summary is that when all is said and done, Jenson and Lewis were pretty damn close over their 3 years together, via different means, and that both remain strong viable WDC candidates. Jenson had a difficult but not a bad season - the TP's have just voted to that effect matching my view, and pick anyone from Frank Williams, Ross Brawn, Martin Whitmarsh or Christian Horner who have, in recent times, affirmed their belief that JB is a TOP TIER driver on the current grid, consistent with my belief. Over the years, the list is far more extensive as I have posted before, with people like JYS, Prost, Richards, Ramirez, Roebuck, Lauda and Fittipaldi on it. But you have previously suffered a convenient loss of memory so I'm not going to be extensive again. Check out the old threads.


Your view on the other hand (taken mostly from the old thread) is that JB is "slow", was "made to look good" by McLaren who sabotaged Lewis in the process and would only win the Championship in a rocket ship (despite winning in without one over the course of 2009). Oh and then you cover it all off by saying anyone who doesn't agree with you, its because JB bought them dinner, hence you can't show me one respected F1 person who shares your view! I certainly haven't read anyone claim he is slow, manipulative, propped up or lucky as you think.

As I said, key F1 people hold a view much closer to mine than yours (that is being kind to you). This is mostly because they say what they don't wake up in the morning with an agenda to put Lewis at the top of the pile and Jenson at the bottom. These are serious intelligent people in the public eye.

I've said 100 times that Lewis is brilliant, faster and probably will end up with the better career legacy than Jenson if he delivers on his obvious potential. I'm really not here to argue black is white. But I can't really see you contributing anything fair. Its just "Lewis is the best, Jenson is the worst" End of. X-factor style debates don't really do if for me.


:up: Jenson's performance speaks for itself. His time at McLaren, has had its ups and downs as has also been the case with Hamilton. In a time where small differences in qualifying performances are rewarded handsomely, Hamilton has enjoyed a well earned advantage through his greater natural one lap speed. However, Button has managed to offset this quite admirably through his own race-craft. He's definitely one of the top drivers with Hamilton having the edge on him.

He's now team leader at McLaren. Should be interesting to see how he does there. Like Vettel, if he does win another championship, it will be said to be down to a car that any of the drivers could win a championship in. But

#554 senna da silva

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 15:20

As I said, key F1 people hold a view much closer to mine than yours (that is being kind to you). This is mostly because they say what they don't wake up in the morning with an agenda to put Lewis at the top of the pile and Jenson at the bottom. These are serious intelligent people in the public eye.


Lets just be clear on what I've said:
Lewis is quicker than Jenson. 2-3 tenths on average if we want to quantify it.
Jenson is excellent at building relationships, probably the best in F1. His professional demeanor is second to none.
McLaren seriously dropped the ball in 2012, Lewis could have been WDC. Was that on purpose, of course not, did they do everything they could to give Lewis the best possible chance of winning the WDC, I don't think so, Spa is an example of that.
Holding up the driver's points totals over three years as proof that Jenson is Lewis's equal or thereabouts is disingenuous and doesn't tell the whole story. That said points are what the history books record so it is notable.
I don't believe Jenson is top tier in the sense of Lewis, Seb or Nando, or even Kimi. He is a step below, so therefore if the car is right yes he will win, but on those days it's not he can't make a difference like the top tier guys can.

I don't really believe we're that far apart on opinion, but if you fundamentally disagree with my points above then we'll have to agree to disagree.

#555 Winter98

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 00:07

Lewis is quicker than Jenson. 2-3 tenths on average if we want to quantify it.
Jenson is excellent at building relationships, probably the best in F1. His professional demeanor is second to none.
McLaren seriously dropped the ball in 2012, Lewis could have been WDC.


Hamilton WDC in 2012? A long shot at best IMO. While he did have a very good year mistake wise, this was made much easier because he didn't have the pressure of fighting for the championship.

It's the ability to win the close championship battles that set the greats apart from the also rans.

Holding up the driver's points totals over three years as proof that Jenson is Lewis's equal or thereabouts is disingenuous and doesn't tell the whole story.


It might not tell the whole story, but it does tell the facts of the story. I liked the tennis set comparison. Jenson finished ahead on points, but Lewis won two sets to one. In other words, they were pretty even with a slight edge to Hamilton.

I don't believe Jenson is top tier in the sense of Lewis, Seb or Nando, or even Kimi.


I don't think he is on Vettel's level considering he has already secured is place in F1 history with three WDCs on the trot. As for FA, well he has 2 WDCs, so I would agree with you there too. But IMO Button is historically on Hamilton and KR's level at this moment. Hamilton and KR have much more time to live up to their obvious potential, but unless they expand their resume in the future, I doubt they will be regarded much differently than JB.

Edited by Winter98, 08 January 2013 - 00:08.


#556 StefanArak

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:27

3. Given that Hamilton lost his head for a while and suffered greater unreliability, which can't all be explained by luck.


Regardless of the rest of your post, this is just completely wrong, and shows you don't understand statistical variance at all.

#557 garoidb

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:51

While he did have a very good year mistake wise, this was made much easier because he didn't have the pressure of fighting for the championship.


This is an aspect that was not tested in 2012. It is one of the reasons I don't think his season can be compared to that of Vettel or Alonso and hasn't received the recognition some feel it deserved.

I don't think he is on Vettel's level considering he has already secured is place in F1 history with three WDCs on the trot. As for FA, well he has 2 WDCs, so I would agree with you there too. But IMO Button is historically on Hamilton and KR's level at this moment. Hamilton and KR have much more time to live up to their obvious potential, but unless they expand their resume in the future, I doubt they will be regarded much differently than JB.


KR is three months older than Button.

#558 mclara

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:57

[quote name='garoidb' date='Jan 8 2013, 09:51' post='6089778']
This is an aspect that was not tested in 2012. It is one of the reasons I don't think his season can be compared to that of Vettel or Alonso and hasn't received the recognition some feel it deserved.


Don't agree to this. IMO Lewis put in some of his best performances ontrack while he still was in the running for the WDC, altough it was only a slim chance he still had to perform every race if it was going to be possible..

#559 robefc

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:06

This is an aspect that was not tested in 2012. It is one of the reasons I don't think his season can be compared to that of Vettel or Alonso and hasn't received the recognition some feel it deserved.


He was doing ok in singapore when he was smack bang in the middle of the championship fight and ahead of vettel.

When he was leading, before his retirement, I was eagerly looking forward to Alonso's lead being cut and Lewis having momentum and a better car...unfortunately circumstances mean that became true of vettel rather than Lewis.

I also think his season has been given the recognition it deserves, I think all of the top 10 type polls/articles I've read have him 2nd or 3rd (swapping with vettel) with roughly half second anf half third. I think you can make an argument for seb or lewis being 2nd and alonso was clearly first to I'm not sure how much more recognition he should/could get.

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#560 robefc

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:09

Hamilton WDC in 2012? A long shot at best IMO. While he did have a very good year mistake wise, this was made much easier because he didn't have the pressure of fighting for the championship.

It's the ability to win the close championship battles that set the greats apart from the also rans.


I'd agree if this sport didn't depend on so much more than the driver, do you feel alonso has mightily tarnished his right to be called a great since 2006 having lost 3 very tight battles and won none?


#561 Lazy

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:14

I'd agree if this sport didn't depend on so much more than the driver, do you feel alonso has mightily tarnished his right to be called a great since 2006 having lost 3 very tight battles and won none?


Indeed, I think it's a fool's game to try and pin down what attributes make a champion, different drivers do it in different ways and so too the teams,

#562 Rinehart

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 13:43

Lets just be clear on what I've said:
Lewis is quicker than Jenson. 2-3 tenths on average if we want to quantify it.
Jenson is excellent at building relationships, probably the best in F1. His professional demeanor is second to none.
McLaren seriously dropped the ball in 2012, Lewis could have been WDC. Was that on purpose, of course not, did they do everything they could to give Lewis the best possible chance of winning the WDC, I don't think so, Spa is an example of that.
Holding up the driver's points totals over three years as proof that Jenson is Lewis's equal or thereabouts is disingenuous and doesn't tell the whole story. That said points are what the history books record so it is notable.
I don't believe Jenson is top tier in the sense of Lewis, Seb or Nando, or even Kimi. He is a step below, so therefore if the car is right yes he will win, but on those days it's not he can't make a difference like the top tier guys can.

I don't really believe we're that far apart on opinion, but if you fundamentally disagree with my points above then we'll have to agree to disagree.


I fundamentally disagree on the notion that the faster driver is automatically the better driver so the debate is closed. Thats the comment I picked up on.


#563 ali_M

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 13:59

I fundamentally disagree on the notion that the faster driver is automatically the better driver so the debate is closed. Thats the comment I picked up on.


I too disagree with the notion. This is why the term 'complete driver' exists. The drivers speed is one aspect of his/her completeness. We know that there's a lot more to Hamilton than just his speed. Though being very quick is a fundamental characteristic of a successful F1 driver, it's not the only one. This is why F1 drivers of present and past are peppered with many very quick drivers who never really did well.

- ability to gel with the team and thus get development going in a direction that maximises on potential pace
- great wheel to wheel racing ability - anticipating and snatching opportunities while staying out of trouble.
- race management ability
- car setup ability
- ability to drive around setup issues - not getting frustrated
- consistent performance over a season.
- not wilting under pressure - mental strength
etc.

Each driver is a different mix of these traits. If we only focus on speed, we'll always be at odds with and forever apologising for a particular drivers consistent lack of delivery of consistent results despite obvious pace.

Button and Hamilton make for interestingly contrasting mixes. Hamilton is more exciting to watch, for sure. However, it's mighty interesting that Hamilton has not been that much better. Button not being in Hamilton's league and such similar hyperbolic comments are plain nonsense, IMO.

#564 senna da silva

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 14:04

I too disagree with the notion. This is why the term 'complete driver' exists. The drivers speed is one aspect of his/her completeness. We know that there's a lot more to Hamilton than just his speed. Though being very quick is a fundamental characteristic of a successful F1 driver, it's not the only one. This is why F1 drivers of present and past are peppered with many very quick drivers who never really did well.

- ability to gel with the team and thus get development going in a direction that maximises on potential pace
- great wheel to wheel racing ability - anticipating and snatching opportunities while staying out of trouble.
- race management ability
- car setup ability
- ability to drive around setup issues - not getting frustrated
- consistent performance over a season.
- not wilting under pressure - mental strength
etc.

Each driver is a different mix of these traits. If we only focus on speed, we'll always be at odds with and forever apologising for a particular drivers consistent lack of delivery of consistent results despite obvious pace.

Button and Hamilton make for interestingly contrasting mixes. Hamilton is more exciting to watch, for sure. However, it's mighty interesting that Hamilton has not been that much better. Button not being in Hamilton's league and such similar hyperbolic comments are plain nonsense, IMO.


So if I may, and I appreciate both yourself and Rinehart replying, if we look at 2011 as a very big lesson for Lewis and Jenson as the teacher, who was the most complete driver at McLaren in 2012?

Edited by senna da silva, 08 January 2013 - 14:05.


#565 tifosiMac

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 14:29

This is all old news now considering we are now in 2013 and Lewis is officially the employee of a different team. How he stacks up to Button right now is not the concern and I would imagine he is excited at the challenge ahead.

#566 mclara

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 15:31

Button and Hamilton make for interestingly contrasting mixes. Hamilton is more exciting to watch, for sure. However, it's mighty interesting that Hamilton has not been that much better. Button not being in Hamilton's league and such similar hyperbolic comments are plain nonsense, IMO.


Sure, but most people on this forum voted yes to 'Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton beeing the best of the current drivers' not very long ago.
So if you ask me I would put Hamilton in a league above Button..
Many people voted no because Raikkonen was not included in the top tier.

Edited by mclara, 08 January 2013 - 15:32.


#567 flatlander48

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 15:58

So if I may, and I appreciate both yourself and Rinehart replying, if we look at 2011 as a very big lesson for Lewis and Jenson as the teacher, who was the most complete driver at McLaren in 2012?


Not on purpose, I'm sure.

Most complete driver at McLaren in 2012? If not for McLaren car and pit problems and Grosjean and Hulkenburg, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The answer would be obvious.

Edited by flatlander48, 08 January 2013 - 15:58.


#568 PretentiousBread

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 16:11

I too disagree with the notion. This is why the term 'complete driver' exists. The drivers speed is one aspect of his/her completeness. We know that there's a lot more to Hamilton than just his speed. Though being very quick is a fundamental characteristic of a successful F1 driver, it's not the only one. This is why F1 drivers of present and past are peppered with many very quick drivers who never really did well.

- ability to gel with the team and thus get development going in a direction that maximises on potential pace
- great wheel to wheel racing ability - anticipating and snatching opportunities while staying out of trouble.
- race management ability
- car setup ability
- ability to drive around setup issues - not getting frustrated
- consistent performance over a season.
- not wilting under pressure - mental strength

etc.

Each driver is a different mix of these traits. If we only focus on speed, we'll always be at odds with and forever apologising for a particular drivers consistent lack of delivery of consistent results despite obvious pace.

Button and Hamilton make for interestingly contrasting mixes. Hamilton is more exciting to watch, for sure. However, it's mighty interesting that Hamilton has not been that much better. Button not being in Hamilton's league and such similar hyperbolic comments are plain nonsense, IMO.


All of which Hamilton accomplished in 2012, on top of prodigious speed. I find it odd this perception that Hamilton is perhaps a less complete driver than Button. If the question was, "how much has each driver achieved in overall results in direct proportion to their own ability?" then sure you'd have to say Button wins that, but there are many external factors and variables for why that has come to pass, and it still doesn't make him a more complete driver than Hamilton, or even make him as complete a driver as Hamilton is.

You mentioned 'driving around setup issues', 'car setup ability', 'consistent performance over a season', all of which I would put X's beside for JB last year, and that's on top of lacking in raw speed. That's pretty incomplete to me. And it's not like 2012 was the first season where he has displayed those symptoms, they've been there throughout his career. 2011 was an anomaly in that regard because you couldn't accuse him of missing any of those attributes you listed, although he was still missing a tenth or two in qualifying.

Thing is, he can afford to have these issues as a driver and still score well relative to Hamilton (or even win a WDC) - last season being the perfect example - so long as fortune is on his side, or rather, ill-fortune is on his opponent's side. Take for example, Spain, Singapore, Hungary, Abu Dhabi - all race weekends where JB was totally outperformed by Hamilton on track, and yet you look at the points accumulated from those four weekends and it's 40-29 to Button. That's why the points tables mean very little to me in terms of assessing individually how good a driver actually is.

Consider, why it is that Vettel is the youngest ever 3 X WDC, sweeping the record books and all before him and yet the conventional wisdom is that he's not better, or even necessarily as good as Alonso or Hamilton..... or why it is that Heidfeld was hired as a 2nd choice replacement to Kubica, even though he'd just outscored him in the same car over a sample larger than that of LH vs JB.....or why it is that the team principal who allowed Button to leave his team, has now signed Hamilton and made him the highest earning driver in the sport. Maybe it's because points tallies don't even indicate for them how good a driver is, no more than they do for me.




#569 flatlander48

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 18:05

You mentioned 'driving around setup issues', 'car setup ability', 'consistent performance over a season', all of which I would put X's beside for JB last year, and that's on top of lacking in raw speed. That's pretty incomplete to me. And it's not like 2012 was the first season where he has displayed those symptoms, they've been there throughout his career. 2011 was an anomaly in that regard because you couldn't accuse him of missing any of those attributes you listed, although he was still missing a tenth or two in qualifying.


A couple of other facts:
  • Button has stated that he has trouble getting the most out of a car that doesn't handle to his liking.
  • Button and Alonso have BOTH stated, at different times, that Hamilton is the best at getting the most out of a difficult car.


#570 tkulla

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 18:50

One interesting thing to consider is whether Lewis would have been confident of heading to another team and building the team around him if he hadn't seen Jenson do it so successfully.

#571 Lazy

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 19:12

You mentioned 'driving around setup issues', 'car setup ability', 'consistent performance over a season', all of which I would put X's beside for JB last year, and that's on top of lacking in raw speed. That's pretty incomplete to me. And it's not like 2012 was the first season where he has displayed those symptoms, they've been there throughout his career. 2011 was an anomaly in that regard because you couldn't accuse him of missing any of those attributes you listed, although he was still missing a tenth or two in qualifying.

Except all 5 of those are actually just one, failure to get the setup right for the tyres. That's what caused the inconsistency, and he showed plenty of raw pace on the occasions they did get it right.

Nonsense, he's renowned for being consistent, 2012 is the anomaly.

Consider, why it is that Vettel is the youngest ever 3 X WDC, sweeping the record books and all before him and yet the conventional wisdom is that he's not better, or even necessarily as good as Alonso or Hamilton..... or why it is that Heidfeld was hired as a 2nd choice replacement to Kubica, even though he'd just outscored him in the same car over a sample larger than that of LH vs JB.....or why it is that the team principal who allowed Button to leave his team, has now signed Hamilton and made him the highest earning driver in the sport. Maybe it's because points tallies don't even indicate for them how good a driver is, no more than they do for me.

Lol, allowed? I seem to remember Brawn trying very hard to keep Button and being bitter enough to prevent Button working with McLaren before the end of contract as McLaren are allowing Lewis to work with him now. You might ask why is it the the tp has allowed Lewis to leave McLaren?




#572 garoidb

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 19:45

A couple of other facts:

  • Button has stated that he has trouble getting the most out of a car that doesn't handle to his liking.
  • Button and Alonso have BOTH stated, at different times, that Hamilton is the best at getting the most out of a difficult car.


I'd be interested to know when Alonso said that. I remember an occasion where he made noises of that kind about Lewis, but it was in the context of considering his rivals, and therefore did not include Fernando himself (although this was ignored by many posters at the time, and taken to mean that Alonso acknowledged Lewis to be superior in that area).

#573 f1fastestlap

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 20:38

All of which Hamilton accomplished in 2012, on top of prodigious speed. I find it odd this perception that Hamilton is perhaps a less complete driver than Button. If the question was, "how much has each driver achieved in overall results in direct proportion to their own ability?" then sure you'd have to say Button wins that, but there are many external factors and variables for why that has come to pass, and it still doesn't make him a more complete driver than Hamilton, or even make him as complete a driver as Hamilton is.

You mentioned 'driving around setup issues', 'car setup ability', 'consistent performance over a season', all of which I would put X's beside for JB last year, and that's on top of lacking in raw speed. That's pretty incomplete to me. And it's not like 2012 was the first season where he has displayed those symptoms, they've been there throughout his career. 2011 was an anomaly in that regard because you couldn't accuse him of missing any of those attributes you listed, although he was still missing a tenth or two in qualifying.

Thing is, he can afford to have these issues as a driver and still score well relative to Hamilton (or even win a WDC) - last season being the perfect example - so long as fortune is on his side, or rather, ill-fortune is on his opponent's side. Take for example, Spain, Singapore, Hungary, Abu Dhabi - all race weekends where JB was totally outperformed by Hamilton on track, and yet you look at the points accumulated from those four weekends and it's 40-29 to Button. That's why the points tables mean very little to me in terms of assessing individually how good a driver actually is.

Consider, why it is that Vettel is the youngest ever 3 X WDC, sweeping the record books and all before him and yet the conventional wisdom is that he's not better, or even necessarily as good as Alonso or Hamilton..... or why it is that Heidfeld was hired as a 2nd choice replacement to Kubica, even though he'd just outscored him in the same car over a sample larger than that of LH vs JB.....or why it is that the team principal who allowed Button to leave his team, has now signed Hamilton and made him the highest earning driver in the sport. Maybe it's because points tallies don't even indicate for them how good a driver is, no more than they do for me.


:up:

#574 Winter98

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:09

Consider, why it is that Vettel is the youngest ever 3 X WDC, sweeping the record books and all before him and yet the conventional wisdom is that he's not better, or even necessarily as good as Alonso or Hamilton.....


Sorry, but I can't buy that argument, unless by "Conventional Wisdom" you mean number of fans on the Autosport forum.

Historically, Vettel has already secured his place amongst the legends of F1. The same can't be said for Hamilton and Alonso, not that they can't, but they will both need to improve their resumes to be considered in the same league as Vettel.

Stats do matter, because everything else is just opinion.

Edited by Winter98, 09 January 2013 - 05:13.


#575 flatlander48

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 06:24

Stats do matter, because everything else is just opinion.



Yes, but very often the box score gives an entirely different picture of what went on compared to the reality. By your logic, Michael Schumacher would be the greatest driver who ever sat in a race car, but that may, or may not, be true. However, if you look at winning percentage, Schumacher is a ways down the list. The thing is there are many ways to determine greatness, but attaching undue significance to statistics is not one of them.

#576 mclara

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:52

Sorry, but I can't buy that argument, unless by "Conventional Wisdom" you mean number of fans on the Autosport forum.

Historically, Vettel has already secured his place amongst the legends of F1. The same can't be said for Hamilton and Alonso, not that they can't, but they will both need to improve their resumes to be considered in the same league as Vettel.

Stats do matter, because everything else is just opinion.


Ofcourse stats do matter, but everyone that has been working with statistics knows that you also have to look behind the numbers and not just swallow the numbers raw. Investigate why the statisctics are the way they are.
And yes there will be opinions involved as with everything else the human mind is involved in.

#577 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:54

This should be about looking back over 2010 to 2012 and Jenson v Lewis. If we're all done, then move on. This is not a Lewis Hamilton driver thread.

#578 robefc

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:55

Sorry, but I can't buy that argument, unless by "Conventional Wisdom" you mean number of fans on the Autosport forum.

Historically, Vettel has already secured his place amongst the legends of F1. The same can't be said for Hamilton and Alonso, not that they can't, but they will both need to improve their resumes to be considered in the same league as Vettel.

Stats do matter, because everything else is just opinion.


Vettel having secured his place as a legend is also an opinion.

If stats were all that mattered then Schumacher would always be number 1 of every greatest poll of greatest drivers and Senna would be down in 5th or wherever.

And Stirling Moss and Gilles Villenueve wouldn't rate a mention anywhere.

#579 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:56

As in, no more unless it's about 2010 to 2012 please.

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#580 Grundle

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:41

If you look at Jenson and Lewis as a partnership, it hasn't worked. Whitmarsh was an idiot for bringing them together. 3rd in the Wcc says all you need to know about the effect 'total equality' has on focusing on the prize.
Anyway, spa 2012 says all you need to know about total equality, team decision, Lewis trusted the team and got screwed over. Pretty obvious that's why he left the team. They pretty much gave Jenson a free victory for being such a nice chap. In summary, Jenson was the greedy, needy baby who took the parents attention away from the one with real talent, who could do things for himself, they reasoned. To be honest McLaren approach is too close to communism, which never seems to work.

#581 speng

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:42

All of which Hamilton accomplished in 2012, on top of prodigious speed. I find it odd this perception that Hamilton is perhaps a less complete driver than Button. If the question was, "how much has each driver achieved in overall results in direct proportion to their own ability?" then sure you'd have to say Button wins that, but there are many external factors and variables for why that has come to pass, and it still doesn't make him a more complete driver than Hamilton, or even make him as complete a driver as Hamilton is.

You mentioned 'driving around setup issues', 'car setup ability', 'consistent performance over a season', all of which I would put X's beside for JB last year, and that's on top of lacking in raw speed. That's pretty incomplete to me. And it's not like 2012 was the first season where he has displayed those symptoms, they've been there throughout his career. 2011 was an anomaly in that regard because you couldn't accuse him of missing any of those attributes you listed, although he was still missing a tenth or two in qualifying.

Thing is, he can afford to have these issues as a driver and still score well relative to Hamilton (or even win a WDC) - last season being the perfect example - so long as fortune is on his side, or rather, ill-fortune is on his opponent's side. Take for example, Spain, Singapore, Hungary, Abu Dhabi - all race weekends where JB was totally outperformed by Hamilton on track, and yet you look at the points accumulated from those four weekends and it's 40-29 to Button. That's why the points tables mean very little to me in terms of assessing individually how good a driver actually is.

Consider, why it is that Vettel is the youngest ever 3 X WDC, sweeping the record books and all before him and yet the conventional wisdom is that he's not better, or even necessarily as good as Alonso or Hamilton..... or why it is that Heidfeld was hired as a 2nd choice replacement to Kubica, even though he'd just outscored him in the same car over a sample larger than that of LH vs JB.....or why it is that the team principal who allowed Button to leave his team, has now signed Hamilton and made him the highest earning driver in the sport. Maybe it's because points tallies don't even indicate for them how good a driver is, no more than they do for me.

Good post

#582 jannyg

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:54

All of which Hamilton accomplished in 2012, on top of prodigious speed. I find it odd this perception that Hamilton is perhaps a less complete driver than Button. If the question was, "how much has each driver achieved in overall results in direct proportion to their own ability?" then sure you'd have to say Button wins that, but there are many external factors and variables for why that has come to pass, and it still doesn't make him a more complete driver than Hamilton, or even make him as complete a driver as Hamilton is.

You mentioned 'driving around setup issues', 'car setup ability', 'consistent performance over a season', all of which I would put X's beside for JB last year, and that's on top of lacking in raw speed. That's pretty incomplete to me. And it's not like 2012 was the first season where he has displayed those symptoms, they've been there throughout his career. 2011 was an anomaly in that regard because you couldn't accuse him of missing any of those attributes you listed, although he was still missing a tenth or two in qualifying.

Thing is, he can afford to have these issues as a driver and still score well relative to Hamilton (or even win a WDC) - last season being the perfect example - so long as fortune is on his side, or rather, ill-fortune is on his opponent's side. Take for example, Spain, Singapore, Hungary, Abu Dhabi - all race weekends where JB was totally outperformed by Hamilton on track, and yet you look at the points accumulated from those four weekends and it's 40-29 to Button. That's why the points tables mean very little to me in terms of assessing individually how good a driver actually is.

Consider, why it is that Vettel is the youngest ever 3 X WDC, sweeping the record books and all before him and yet the conventional wisdom is that he's not better, or even necessarily as good as Alonso or Hamilton..... or why it is that Heidfeld was hired as a 2nd choice replacement to Kubica, even though he'd just outscored him in the same car over a sample larger than that of LH vs JB.....or why it is that the team principal who allowed Button to leave his team, has now signed Hamilton and made him the highest earning driver in the sport. Maybe it's because points tallies don't even indicate for them how good a driver is, no more than they do for me.


Great Post

#583 slmk

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:39

One interesting thing to consider is whether Lewis would have been confident of heading to another team and building the team around him if he hadn't seen Jenson do it so successfully.


Sorry, how many titles/races has Jenson won for McLaren?

Edited by slmk, 09 January 2013 - 12:39.


#584 f1fastestlap

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 14:11

Sorry, how many titles/races has Jenson won for McLaren?


Races (teammates):
LH: 21(10)
JB: 7

Titles:

LH: 1
JB: 0


There goes his theory... :lol:

#585 flatlander48

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 14:53

If you look at Jenson and Lewis as a partnership, it hasn't worked.


Actually, I think it has, but not how you would think. Inadvertently Hamilton and Button have each managed to offset the other when one has been struggling over the last 3 years. In other words, it has been rare that they have struggled at the same time. Clearly that wasn't the intent when they hired Button, but that looks like how it has worked out.

#586 boldhakka

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:50

Actually, I think it has, but not how you would think. Inadvertently Hamilton and Button have each managed to offset the other when one has been struggling over the last 3 years. In other words, it has been rare that they have struggled at the same time. Clearly that wasn't the intent when they hired Button, but that looks like how it has worked out.


Yep, it was an excellent pairing, especially for a WCC.

#587 Rinehart

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 16:06

So if I may, and I appreciate both yourself and Rinehart replying, if we look at 2011 as a very big lesson for Lewis and Jenson as the teacher, who was the most complete driver at McLaren in 2012?


Hamilton.

Are we trying to weigh up Jenson v Hamilton based on 2012 alone, or 2010 - 2012, because I'm pretty much exclusively referring to 2010-12.

#588 Rinehart

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 18:13

All of which Hamilton accomplished in 2012, on top of prodigious speed.


I think that if you heap too much praise on Hamilton, your point is going to be picked apart, even if your basic point is correct. So let me start by saying, I think you're basically right, he was an improved package in 2012 but in 2012 Hamilton did....

1. Basically chose to leave the fastest car for the 5th fastest one, possibly as a consequence of disharmony between he and his team (jumping ship does not equal solving the problem)
2. In typical fits of frustration over engineering such as his clutch in Australia, the wing in Spa, he variously criticised his team and published sensitive data!
3. Spoke disparagingly and mistakenly about a number of drivers during the season, including of course, his teammate
4. Involved in 3 race ending collisions
5. Conspired with his team to again make a number of less than perfect calls during wet races


So I think he's far from the full article. Definitely the fastest. Probably one of the best in terms of racecraft now. But his technical, strategic and mental attributes still leave a huge amount to be desired. He's basically one of the poorest on the grid in these areas. Serously, god help the rest of the grid if he really smartens up his act strategically and mentally. May as well give him the trophy in January if that happens.

#589 garoidb

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 18:45

I think that if you heap too much praise on Hamilton, your point is going to be picked apart, even if your basic point is correct.


If I may interject - yes, Hamilton was much better than in 2011, when I for one was very critical of him. Some other drivers delivered extremely impressive seasons too. The standard is very high right now.

So let me start by saying, I think you're basically right, he was an improved package in 2012 but in 2012 Hamilton did....

1. Basically chose to leave the fastest car for the 5th fastest one, possibly as a consequence of disharmony between he and his team (jumping ship does not equal solving the problem)


This is the most significant and career altering thing he did this year. If it was a shrewd move, he will reap much credit, but equally if it is less successful he must accept full responsibility. It is not by luck (good or bad) that he is driving for a Mercedes team with a lacklustre recent record next year.

So I think he's far from the full article. Definitely the fastest. Probably one of the best in terms of racecraft now. But his technical, strategic and mental attributes still leave a huge amount to be desired. He's basically one of the poorest on the grid in these areas. Serously, god help the rest of the grid if he really smartens up his act strategically and mentally. May as well give him the trophy in January if that happens.


Alonso and Vettel are extremely good in these areas. I have wondered before whether the frequent assumption that these positive attributes are acquired with time and experience is really true. Vettel is less experienced and Alonso, while more experienced in F1, seemed to have acquired these aspects several years ago. Lewis is about the same age as Fernando was when he joined Ferrari. Perhaps they are also an innate part of racing talent or ability.

#590 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 18:49

This is the most significant and career altering thing he did this year. If it was a shrewd move, he will reap much credit, but equally if it is less successful he must accept full responsibility. It is not by luck (good or bad) that he is driving for a Mercedes team with a lacklustre recent record next year.

If he tries but does not succeed, who are we to criticise? It takes balls to do what Lewis has done and he has already won the best prize in the sport. Now is about trying to add to that record or contribute to his own legacy by driving well. Lewis in a slow car is still one of the best whatever way it goes.

#591 Kingshark

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 18:50

Hamilton WDC in 2012? A long shot at best IMO. While he did have a very good year mistake wise, this was made much easier because he didn't have the pressure of fighting for the championship.

It's the ability to win the close championship battles that set the greats apart from the also rans.

:rotfl:

Stirling Moss lost four very close championships, while Jacques Villeneuve won a close one. I guess that according to your logic, Jacques V is a great while Moss is the also-ran. :drunk:

Back on topic, Hamilton has been the best driver this season IMO, only matched by Alonso. He made absolutely no mistake and kept his head cool despite all the mistakes his team mate, and all the bad luck he suffered. Sorry, but the scorecard doesn't tell the whole story. Jenson was destroyed in 2012; and in fact, 2010 was actually much closer.

Lewis 2 - Jenson 1.

Edited by Kingshark, 09 January 2013 - 18:51.


#592 Coral

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 18:56

I think that if you heap too much praise on Hamilton, your point is going to be picked apart, even if your basic point is correct. So let me start by saying, I think you're basically right, he was an improved package in 2012 but in 2012 Hamilton did....

1. Basically chose to leave the fastest car for the 5th fastest one, possibly as a consequence of disharmony between he and his team (jumping ship does not equal solving the problem)
2. In typical fits of frustration over engineering such as his clutch in Australia, the wing in Spa, he variously criticised his team and published sensitive data!
3. Spoke disparagingly and mistakenly about a number of drivers during the season, including of course, his teammate
4. Involved in 3 race ending collisions
5. Conspired with his team to again make a number of less than perfect calls during wet races


So I think he's far from the full article. Definitely the fastest. Probably one of the best in terms of racecraft now. But his technical, strategic and mental attributes still leave a huge amount to be desired. He's basically one of the poorest on the grid in these areas. Serously, god help the rest of the grid if he really smartens up his act strategically and mentally. May as well give him the trophy in January if that happens.


I think you are being very unfair regarding the race ending collisions, none of which I believe were Lewis's fault, and all of which resulted in penalties for the other driver involved. And I don't know which drivers Lewis is supposed to have disparaged, apart from Jenson...and even that would not have happened had Jenson not been Lewis's team-mate. From what I can see the difference between Jenson and Lewis in 2010-2012 is that Jenson wanted to be at McLaren...Lewis didn't. That's pretty much it...

#593 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 18:57

Stirling Moss lost four very close championships, while Jacques Villeneuve won a close one. I guess that according to your logic, Jacques V is a great while Moss is the also-ran. :drunk:

That's about the level of knowledge and respect he brings unfortunately.

#594 garoidb

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 19:01

I think you are being very unfair regarding the race ending collisions, none of which I believe were Lewis's fault, and all of which resulted in penalties for the other driver involved. And I don't know which drivers Lewis is supposed to have disparaged, apart from Jenson...and even that would not have happened had Jenson not been Lewis's team-mate. From what I can see the difference between Jenson and Lewis in 2010-2012 is that Jenson wanted to be at McLaren...Lewis didn't. That's pretty much it...


This was obviously true towards the end of the period, but how early do you think this feeling started?

#595 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 19:07

This was obviously true towards the end of the period, but how early do you think this feeling started?

Mid way through 2011 I reckon.

#596 PretentiousBread

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 19:58

I think that if you heap too much praise on Hamilton, your point is going to be picked apart, even if your basic point is correct. So let me start by saying, I think you're basically right, he was an improved package in 2012 but in 2012 Hamilton did....

1. Basically chose to leave the fastest car for the 5th fastest one, possibly as a consequence of disharmony between he and his team (jumping ship does not equal solving the problem)
2. In typical fits of frustration over engineering such as his clutch in Australia, the wing in Spa, he variously criticised his team and published sensitive data!
3. Spoke disparagingly and mistakenly about a number of drivers during the season, including of course, his teammate

4. Involved in 3 race ending collisions
5. Conspired with his team to again make a number of less than perfect calls during wet races

So I think he's far from the full article. Definitely the fastest. Probably one of the best in terms of racecraft now. But his technical, strategic and mental attributes still leave a huge amount to be desired. He's basically one of the poorest on the grid in these areas. Serously, god help the rest of the grid if he really smartens up his act strategically and mentally. May as well give him the trophy in January if that happens.


From your list of 5 points, the first three are all criticisms of how he conducts himself as a person. I don't rate drivers based on how well they can schmoozy up to others, I judge them almost exclusively on how they perform on track, so long as they do perform on track. If Hamilton rants at his team and then goes on to dominate a race from pole, he still gets a 10/10 from me, as would any other driver in that position. Twittergate made a laughing stock out of him, but he drove near faultlessly for the rest of the season. That's what counts for me. If the question was "who's the most politically shrewd driver", then i'd rank the drivers completely differently, and indeed Hamilton would be quite far down that list. I hope others understand that i'm not much fussed on Lewis Hamilton the person, I do admire and relate to certain aspects of him as a person, but by and large I have very little in common with him and find a lot of his behaviour and thinking completely bizarre and cringeworthy. But he's an amazing racing driver, and that's what I rate him on.

Now, I appreciate you're getting at how a driver's personal interactions affect their opportunity to win, but I see that as a separate discussion. Alonso's actions in 2007 indirectly resulted in two barren years in 2008/2009 in an uncompetitive Renault, but they didn't diminish how good a driver he was. When the dust is settled on their careers, I won't look at Alonso's behaviour in 2007 as evidence that he wasn't as good as some say. Had he played his cards differently, he may well have won more WDC's and races come the end, but as you know that's not how I rate drivers. Schumacher partly engineered a favourable set of circumstances for himself to rack up a lot of wins and championships with Ferrari, but he wasn't able to convince most that he was any better than Senna was, despite having so many more accolades.

With Hamilton, if he narrowly fails to win the title in a semi-competitive Mercedes for the next three years running, and loses out to JB each and every time in a car that is the class of the field - that would put JB on 4 titles and Hamilton on 1, but still i'd have seen nothing that suggests JB is the better driver, not in terms of pushing the pedals and turning the wheel. I'm not some masochist though, I want Hamilton to win more titles, but it won't fundamentally affect how I rate him. At the end of 2010, I suspected Kubica might be the best driver of the lot, I still have that suspicion.

About your other points, the fourth is extremely unfair on Hamilton. All three collisions resulted in penalties for the other driver, and in two of them Hamilton could not reasonably be expected to have done anything differently. It's absurd to hold anything against him for either his Spa or Brazil retirements. Regarding Valencia, although the collision itself was Maldonado's error, I heavily criticised Hamilton at the time, and argued with several other LH fans about his lack of foresight and perspective in that incident. It's the one bona fide, on track error of judgement I hold against him in the whole of 2012, his year was really that good. However, it's a valid criticism of his approach as a driver, but I see it more as a double edged sword - the same mental approach (always fight) has won him races that most others couldn't have in the same position e.g. Hockenheim 2008, Canada 2010, Shanghai 2011, Nurburgring 2011.

On point 5, I partly agree with this. I've said before that Button is probably better on slicks on a damp track than Hamilton, it's when he's most in his element, and I don't think it's a coincidence that he stayed out at China in 2010 and Brazil 2012 and that those decisions paid off handsomely - he was more comfortable in those conditions than Hamilton, and Hamilton most likely pitted to try to steal a march on him. However, both of these calls involved a lot of luck as well, they could both easily have gone the other way.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 09 January 2013 - 20:08.


#597 garoidb

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 20:27

Mid way through 2011 I reckon.


That was around the time of the visit to the Red Bull hospitality unit (or motorhome or whatever it was). That makes sense. My impression was that it was the lack of competitiveness of the McLaren versus the Red Bull, and the associated success of Sebastien Vettel, that was irking him at that time. Maybe it was more than that, though.

#598 senna da silva

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 20:32

From your list of 5 points, the first three are all criticisms of how he conducts himself as a person. I don't rate drivers based on how well they can schmoozy up to others, I judge them almost exclusively on how they perform on track, so long as they do perform on track. If Hamilton rants at his team and then goes on to dominate a race from pole, he still gets a 10/10 from me, as would any other driver in that position. Twittergate made a laughing stock out of him, but he drove near faultlessly for the rest of the season. That's what counts for me. If the question was "who's the most politically shrewd driver", then i'd rank the drivers completely differently, and indeed Hamilton would be quite far down that list. I hope others understand that i'm not much fussed on Lewis Hamilton the person, I do admire and relate to certain aspects of him as a person, but by and large I have very little in common with him and find a lot of his behaviour and thinking completely bizarre and cringeworthy. But he's an amazing racing driver, and that's what I rate him on.

Now, I appreciate you're getting at how a driver's personal interactions affect their opportunity to win, but I see that as a separate discussion. Alonso's actions in 2007 indirectly resulted in two barren years in 2008/2009 in an uncompetitive Renault, but they didn't diminish how good a driver he was. When the dust is settled on their careers, I won't look at Alonso's behaviour in 2007 as evidence that he wasn't as good as some say. Had he played his cards differently, he may well have won more WDC's and races come the end, but as you know that's not how I rate drivers. Schumacher partly engineered a favourable set of circumstances for himself to rack up a lot of wins and championships with Ferrari, but he wasn't able to convince most that he was any better than Senna was, despite having so many more accolades.

With Hamilton, if he narrowly fails to win the title in a semi-competitive Mercedes for the next three years running, and loses out to JB each and every time in a car that is the class of the field - that would put JB on 4 titles and Hamilton on 1, but still i'd have seen nothing that suggests JB is the better driver, not in terms of pushing the pedals and turning the wheel. I'm not some masochist though, I want Hamilton to win more titles, but it won't fundamentally affect how I rate him. At the end of 2010, I suspected Kubica might be the best driver of the lot, I still have that suspicion.

About your other points, the fourth is extremely unfair on Hamilton. All three collisions resulted in penalties for the other driver, and in two of them Hamilton could not reasonably be expected to have done anything differently. It's absurd to hold anything against him for either his Spa or Brazil retirements. Regarding Valencia, although the collision itself was Maldonado's error, I heavily criticised Hamilton at the time, and argued with several other LH fans about his lack of foresight and perspective in that incident. It's the one bona fide, on track error of judgement I hold against him in the whole of 2012, his year was really that good. However, it's a valid criticism of his approach as a driver, but I see it more as a double edged sword - the same mental approach (always fight) has won him races that most others couldn't have in the same position e.g. Hockenheim 2008, Canada 2010, Shanghai 2011, Nurburgring 2011.

On point 5, I partly agree with this. I've said before that Button is probably better on slicks on a damp track than Hamilton, it's when he's most in his element, and I don't think it's a coincidence that he stayed out at China in 2010 and Brazil 2012 and that those decisions paid off handsomely - he was more comfortable in those conditions than Hamilton, and Hamilton most likely pitted to try to steal a march on him. However, both of these calls involved a lot of luck as well, they could both easily have gone the other way.


Top post! :up:

#599 garoidb

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 21:02

He was doing ok in singapore when he was smack bang in the middle of the championship fight and ahead of vettel.

When he was leading, before his retirement, I was eagerly looking forward to Alonso's lead being cut and Lewis having momentum and a better car...unfortunately circumstances mean that became true of vettel rather than Lewis.


The pressure builds all the way to the end of a championship, as we have seen many times. It is that last part of the season, where mistakes can end a championship challenge on the spot, that Lewis did not have. Because the McLaren had pace, for maybe two thirds of the season Lewis had the possibility of reeling in the championship lead with performance. When it started to slip away, there must have been frustration but I don't think he was ever in a position where a single driving error would have cost him a likely WDC. Alonso, by contrast, had no hope of winning races for most of the second half of the season so points lost due to a driving mistake would not be recoverable (e.g. he could never hope to recover the points lost in Japan on pace). Nonetheless, he absolutely had to make up places on his poor grid positions, and overtake multiple cars in the opening laps. One minor error while doing this cost him the championship. That is pressure, and it is completely different to the situation Lewis was in.

I also think his season has been given the recognition it deserves, I think all of the top 10 type polls/articles I've read have him 2nd or 3rd (swapping with vettel) with roughly half second anf half third. I think you can make an argument for seb or lewis being 2nd and alonso was clearly first to I'm not sure how much more recognition he should/could get.


There are those who think Lewis was the best driver of the season (some say equal with Alonso). I would agree with your assessment.

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#600 Kvothe

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 21:34

From your list of 5 points, the first three are all criticisms of how he conducts himself as a person. I don't rate drivers based on how well they can schmoozy up to others, I judge them almost exclusively on how they perform on track, so long as they do perform on track. If Hamilton rants at his team and then goes on to dominate a race from pole, he still gets a 10/10 from me, as would any other driver in that position. Twittergate made a laughing stock out of him, but he drove near faultlessly for the rest of the season. That's what counts for me. If the question was "who's the most politically shrewd driver", then i'd rank the drivers completely differently, and indeed Hamilton would be quite far down that list. I hope others understand that i'm not much fussed on Lewis Hamilton the person, I do admire and relate to certain aspects of him as a person, but by and large I have very little in common with him and find a lot of his behaviour and thinking completely bizarre and cringeworthy. But he's an amazing racing driver, and that's what I rate him on.

Now, I appreciate you're getting at how a driver's personal interactions affect their opportunity to win, but I see that as a separate discussion. Alonso's actions in 2007 indirectly resulted in two barren years in 2008/2009 in an uncompetitive Renault, but they didn't diminish how good a driver he was. When the dust is settled on their careers, I won't look at Alonso's behaviour in 2007 as evidence that he wasn't as good as some say. Had he played his cards differently, he may well have won more WDC's and races come the end, but as you know that's not how I rate drivers. Schumacher partly engineered a favourable set of circumstances for himself to rack up a lot of wins and championships with Ferrari, but he wasn't able to convince most that he was any better than Senna was, despite having so many more accolades.

With Hamilton, if he narrowly fails to win the title in a semi-competitive Mercedes for the next three years running, and loses out to JB each and every time in a car that is the class of the field - that would put JB on 4 titles and Hamilton on 1, but still i'd have seen nothing that suggests JB is the better driver, not in terms of pushing the pedals and turning the wheel. I'm not some masochist though, I want Hamilton to win more titles, but it won't fundamentally affect how I rate him. At the end of 2010, I suspected Kubica might be the best driver of the lot, I still have that suspicion.

About your other points, the fourth is extremely unfair on Hamilton. All three collisions resulted in penalties for the other driver, and in two of them Hamilton could not reasonably be expected to have done anything differently. It's absurd to hold anything against him for either his Spa or Brazil retirements. Regarding Valencia, although the collision itself was Maldonado's error, I heavily criticised Hamilton at the time, and argued with several other LH fans about his lack of foresight and perspective in that incident. It's the one bona fide, on track error of judgement I hold against him in the whole of 2012, his year was really that good. However, it's a valid criticism of his approach as a driver, but I see it more as a double edged sword - the same mental approach (always fight) has won him races that most others couldn't have in the same position e.g. Hockenheim 2008, Canada 2010, Shanghai 2011, Nurburgring 2011.

On point 5, I partly agree with this. I've said before that Button is probably better on slicks on a damp track than Hamilton, it's when he's most in his element, and I don't think it's a coincidence that he stayed out at China in 2010 and Brazil 2012 and that those decisions paid off handsomely - he was more comfortable in those conditions than Hamilton, and Hamilton most likely pitted to try to steal a march on him. However, both of these calls involved a lot of luck as well, they could both easily have gone the other way.


Nail-Head-Tent, Prentetious, top posting from you lately!