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Jenson v's Lewis - a retrospective view of their time as team mates


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#651 Buttoneer

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:53

This is getting very off topic. Button v Hamilton 2010-2012 please.

I appreciate the Maldonado incidents are part of this but they should inform the discussion and not be the aim of it.

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#652 Buttoneer

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:59

Posts deleted.

Please do not ignore my request.


#653 jjcale

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 19:40

Because It's Pastor Maldonado we're talking about. Interviewed at the end of the season he says he wouldn't have done anything differently at all in that clash, zero contrition, or acceptance that he was anyway in the wrong. Hamilton accepted afterwards that he should have recognised who he was racing against. Hamilton's approach of asserting dominance in wheel to wheel encounters is largely successful, but racing in that way against blockheads like Pastor isn't the wisest thing to do.


LH is too weak sometimes ... too much wanting to be liked/loved

Hopefully he has learned from JB that being liked in a superficial way is sufficient and there is no need for a real emotional connection with his team ... and it is more important to always be respected as a professional.

#654 garoidb

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 19:45

Hopefully he has learned from JB that being liked in a superficial way is sufficient and there is no need for a real emotional connection with his team ... and it is more important to always be respected as a professional.


I believe this is back on topic, apologies if not. This would be a good lesson for Lewis to have gained from being teamed with Button, who would have the perspective gained from having changed teams several times.

#655 Winter98

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:20

Bottom line is we're all agreed that Hamilton is one of the fastest and best racers out there. So what is it that is preventing him from being more consistent and successful. Most Hamilton fans will say LUCK and the TEAM.

I say its in his MENTAL APPROACH to racing, in all its forms that is the cause. I am also saying I can see he's improving and expect him to really be much better in this area in the future.


I agree about Hamilton being fast and good.

I grew up on a farm, and spent a lot of time working with and on machinery. How hard farm machinery is used can have a large effect on the lifespan of the components, and I would think the same would apply to F1 cars. So I think it is fair to apportion at least some part of the blame for Hamilton's breakdowns to Hamilton himself. Same applies to Buttons breakdowns as well.

And I agree that Hamilton is improving mentally. IMO being out of the title hunt for most of last season allowed him to relax and be less aggressive, something he needed to learn (again IMO). And being able to watch Button, one of the classiest drivers in F1 for three seasons was undoubtedly a great education in itself.

Edited by Winter98, 11 January 2013 - 20:30.


#656 Peter Perfect

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:47

LH is too weak sometimes ... too much wanting to be liked/loved

Hopefully he has learned from JB that being liked in a superficial way is sufficient and there is no need for a real emotional connection with his team ... and it is more important to always be respected as a professional.

Are we going back to the Button-the-actor thing? Why's it so hard to believe that maybe Button can have a good, genuine relationship with McLaren?

If anything I'd say that what Hamilton can learn from his teammate is that it's important to remember that respect works both ways in a relationship.

#657 Watkins74

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:56

Are we going back to the Button-the-actor thing? Why's it so hard to believe that maybe Button can have a good, genuine relationship with McLaren?

If anything I'd say that what Hamilton can learn from his teammate is that it's important to remember that respect works both ways in a relationship.

Bulls Eye. Bingo. Winner Winner Chicken Dinner. etc.

#658 jjcale

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:59

Are we going back to the Button-the-actor thing? Why's it so hard to believe that maybe Button can have a good, genuine relationship with McLaren?

If anything I'd say that what Hamilton can learn from his teammate is that it's important to remember that respect works both ways in a relationship.


Maybe superficial wasnt the right word .... maybe something like platonic - something that is the opposite of emotional.

LH provokes emotions... people either think he's great or they actively dislike him - there are very few neutrals (among F1 fans that is) ... JB does not produce that kind of visceral reaction from people - that's what I was getting at. And plus LH quite clearly wants to be liked so that adds to the reaction that he generates.

So I hope that he tones it down and becomes a bit more professional in his overall attitude at Merc ... and treats them just as colleagues and not some sort of extended family.

#659 BillBald

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:46

Maybe superficial wasnt the right word .... maybe something like platonic - something that is the opposite of emotional.

LH provokes emotions... people either think he's great or they actively dislike him - there are very few neutrals (among F1 fans that is) ... JB does not produce that kind of visceral reaction from people - that's what I was getting at. And plus LH quite clearly wants to be liked so that adds to the reaction that he generates.

So I hope that he tones it down and becomes a bit more professional in his overall attitude at Merc ... and treats them just as colleagues and not some sort of extended family.


Well, strangely enough it seems he does.

I think there's actually as much hate directed at Jenson as at Lewis or any other driver, in this forum at least.

Take a look at a new thread where people are trying to say nice things about drivers they dislike - they really seem to struggle when it comes to Jenson: http://forums.autosp...howtopic=178500






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#660 flatlander48

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:47

I grew up on a farm, and spent a lot of time working with and on machinery. How hard farm machinery is used can have a large effect on the lifespan of the components, and I would think the same would apply to F1 cars. So I think it is fair to apportion at least some part of the blame for Hamilton's breakdowns to Hamilton himself. Same applies to Buttons breakdowns as well.


Yes and no. Unlike the farm, highly stressed parts are replaced based on their longevity. Without looking it up, I would guess that a race weekend is no more than 8 hours (probably less) of on track time. If a given part is deemed to have a life of 8 or 9 hours, it would be replaced before the next race weekend. If they continued to have the same failure, then you may have a case. But, as it was, I don't believe that was the situation.

#661 Rinehart

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:59

It's interesting that, after Canada when button was lapped, whitmarsh authorised the swapping of chassis at races. The most likely reason for this? To make things more equal? Prove to button the chassis are equal? Whatever the reason, Lewis struggled for setup that weekend, jb found some form. I commend Lewis for keeping quiet about this, think about it, the chamssis you just won in, replaced by a lapped chassis, regardless of the engineering work done on it since, would rankle a bit.
McLaren, more focused on equality than winning.


Great to see that this bull has had the opposite effect you intended.
Even funnier that had it been true, it would have proven there was a problem with JB's chassis, also making a point you hadn't intended!
Way to go. :stoned:

#662 Winter98

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:40

Yes and no. Unlike the farm, highly stressed parts are replaced based on their longevity.


True that, we weren't fixing what wasn't broken. :D

Without looking it up, I would guess that a race weekend is no more than 8 hours (probably less) of on track time. If a given part is deemed to have a life of 8 or 9 hours, it would be replaced before the next race weekend. If they continued to have the same failure, then you may have a case. But, as it was, I don't believe that was the situation.


Cool. Thanks for your take.

#663 Winter98

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:46

LH provokes emotions... people either think he's great or they actively dislike him - there are very few neutrals (among F1 fans that is) ... JB does not produce that kind of visceral reaction from people - that's what I was getting at. And plus LH quite clearly wants to be liked so that adds to the reaction that he generates.


Button is one of my fave's, so I've been hoping against Hamilton, and admit to putting the odd hex on LH. :p

But I do love what LH brings to the table in terms of skill, excitement, and personality. I hope for him, and I hope against him. It's very confusing.

#664 baddog

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:08

Simple enough answer on the topic from my point of view..

Lewis made Jenson look like a mostly ordinary driver with a nice talent for mixed conditions and good people skills. Jenson, especially in qualifying, helped Lewis look like an extraordinary talent, albeit an amazingly flaky one.

I have no doubt at all that Lewis came out of their matchup on top by a long shot.

#665 flatlander48

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:07

Cool. Thanks for your take.


No problem.

I think the term is that the parts are "lifed". In other words, accurate records are kept as to how long in time or milage or laps a part has been in use. There might also be extenuating circumstances that could shorten the life of a part, such as getting bumped by another car. Suspension parts might not fail after such a hit during the race, but they would probably be removed from service prematurely as its life could have been shortened due to an overstressed condition. Every part has a fatigue life. It is basically how many load-unload cycles a part can take before it is likely to fail. You don't run the part right up to that limit as there is a fair amount of unpredictability. You might choose a point 50% or 70% of its theoretical life.

These days the number of things that a driver can do to effect reliability are fewer than they used to be. Back in the days when the drivers physically shifted the gearbox, a driver could directly influence the wear and tear on the clutch, gearbox and read end with good or bad technique. The concept was known as mechanical sympathy. Some had it and some didn't. These days, once you signal a shift with the paddles, the actual shift is carried out by the electronics and hydraulics. Even if you hit the same paddle twice for 2 downshifts, it will only go as fast as it normally does. The controls won't allow the system to try to shift 2 gears at once.

If you take a lot of curb, it could cause suspension failure prematurely. Overusing the brakes could wear them out prematurely, but brake failures seem pretty rare. Other than that, I'm not sure what a driver can due to cause reliability problems.

Edited by flatlander48, 12 January 2013 - 12:19.


#666 Force Ten

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 13:08

Simple enough answer on the topic from my point of view..

Lewis made Jenson look like a mostly ordinary driver with a nice talent for mixed conditions and good people skills. Jenson, especially in qualifying, helped Lewis look like an extraordinary talent, albeit an amazingly flaky one.

Funny how their results somehow managed to be so even overall, despite one being a totally ordinary driver and another one an extraordinary talent. Nice analysis. :up:

#667 WitnessX

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 14:05

No problem.

I think the term is that the parts are "lifed". In other words, accurate records are kept as to how long in time or milage or laps a part has been in use. There might also be extenuating circumstances that could shorten the life of a part, such as getting bumped by another car. Suspension parts might not fail after such a hit during the race, but they would probably be removed from service prematurely as its life could have been shortened due to an overstressed condition. Every part has a fatigue life. It is basically how many load-unload cycles a part can take before it is likely to fail. You don't run the part right up to that limit as there is a fair amount of unpredictability. You might choose a point 50% or 70% of its theoretical life.

These days the number of things that a driver can do to effect reliability are fewer than they used to be. Back in the days when the drivers physically shifted the gearbox, a driver could directly influence the wear and tear on the clutch, gearbox and read end with good or bad technique. The concept was known as mechanical sympathy. Some had it and some didn't. These days, once you signal a shift with the paddles, the actual shift is carried out by the electronics and hydraulics. Even if you hit the same paddle twice for 2 downshifts, it will only go as fast as it normally does. The controls won't allow the system to try to shift 2 gears at once.

If you take a lot of curb, it could cause suspension failure prematurely. Overusing the brakes could wear them out prematurely, but brake failures seem pretty rare. Other than that, I'm not sure what a driver can due to cause reliability problems.

That does not stop the driver having an influence on the gearbox and engine.

Irrelevant of the control system behind the switching of the gears, the gearbox components are ultimately mechanical in nature and can be mis-aligned, damaged or bent.

Shocks waves are transmitted throughout the power-train right up to the engine. Slippage also causes strains on the power-train, this is why the drivers are dissuaded from doing "donuts".
http://www.mirror.co...ning-car-790090



#668 flatlander48

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 14:26

That does not stop the driver having an influence on the gearbox and engine.


How? You can't over rev the engines and the control module has command over how the shift is accomplished (clutch-blip-shift) and all of the associated timing.

Irrelevant of the control system behind the switching of the gears, the gearbox components are ultimately mechanical in nature and can be mis-aligned, damaged or bent.


None of that is under the driver's control. Those are preparation and maintenance issues.

Shocks waves are transmitted throughout the power-train right up to the engine. Slippage also causes strains on the power-train, this is why the drivers are dissuaded from doing "donuts".
http://www.mirror.co...ning-car-790090


We're talking about conditions DURING competition. You wouldn't do doughnuts DURING competition.

It used to be that you could shock a drivetrain when a car became airborne, such as at Flugplatz on the old Nordschleife, and landed back on the track. However, I don't believe any such places are left on modern F-1 race courses.

Edited by flatlander48, 12 January 2013 - 14:27.


#669 Peter Perfect

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 18:07

How? You can't over rev the engines and the control module has command over how the shift is accomplished (clutch-blip-shift) and all of the associated timing.

Maybe not, but if you drive the whole race in 1st on the rev limit wouldn't it harm the drivetrain? I've mentioned it many times before, but I do remember a story about Sato when he was at BAR where he was damaging the drivetrain by hitting the rev limiter too much during downshifts. The BAR engineers had to tweak the limiter to take account as he suffered with unreliability.

None of that is under the driver's control. Those are preparation and maintenance issues.

We're talking about conditions DURING competition. You wouldn't do doughnuts DURING competition.

It used to be that you could shock a drivetrain when a car became airborne, such as at Flugplatz on the old Nordschleife, and landed back on the track. However, I don't believe any such places are left on modern F-1 race courses.

I thought I'd heard commentators mention before that continually clattering high kerbs for the whole race can adversely affect the cars mechanicals.

#670 WitnessX

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 18:28

How? You can't over rev the engines and the control module has command over how the shift is accomplished (clutch-blip-shift) and all of the associated timing.

http://www.f1complet.../view/1286/389/

I admit that I am no expert but I believe its not the rev. limiting thats the problem. Its more to do with the changes which occur between revs. vs load in the sense of the "sudden" force changes applied on the gearbox. I imagine the mechanical components have their own physics and will not obey the orders of control system if the are not compatible.

None of that is under the driver's control. Those are preparation and maintenance issues.

That, of course, is dependent on the original cause of those problems, and whether the components have been used out of there original design parameters.

We're talking about conditions DURING competition. You wouldn't do doughnuts DURING competition.

It used to be that you could shock a drivetrain when a car became airborne, such as at Flugplatz on the old Nordschleife, and landed back on the track. However, I don't believe any such plac" changeses are left on modern F-1 race courses.

Not even at Singapore ? For modern F1 cars the higher kerbs that now exist are enough to send them flying.

I was using the "donut" as an extreme example to illustrate that the driver does have some influence on the gearbox and engine. The only question is how much?

A shock (impulse) may also be incurred hitting anything, wall, other cars, kerb etc. These do still exist on current circuits.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your posts, however I don't agree that one can automatically dismiss the driver as having a part to play in the reliability of the gearbox or engine. The only question is to what degree, unfortunately without McLarens help I cannot see a definite answer to this.


#671 flatlander48

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 18:42

Maybe not, but if you drive the whole race in 1st on the rev limit wouldn't it harm the drivetrain?


Well, you might also fly transatlantic with the landing gear down, but who would do that either?

I've mentioned it many times before, but I do remember a story about Sato when he was at BAR where he was damaging the drivetrain by hitting the rev limiter too much during downshifts. The BAR engineers had to tweak the limiter to take account as he suffered with unreliability.


That doesn't sound right. I don't think the software will allow the shift will occur if it will throw the engine above the rev range. Hard to see how this could happen. Anyway, if you're on the limiter that much, there is some other problem: gear ratios, technique, etc.

I thought I'd heard commentators mention before that continually clattering high kerbs for the whole race can adversely affect the cars mechanicals.


Post #665:
"If you take a lot of curb, it could cause suspension failure prematurely."

Edited by flatlander48, 12 January 2013 - 18:43.


#672 flatlander48

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 19:18

http://www.f1complet.../view/1286/389/

I admit that I am no expert but I believe its not the rev. limiting thats the problem. Its more to do with the changes which occur between revs. vs load in the sense of the "sudden" force changes applied on the gearbox. I imagine the mechanical components have their own physics and will not obey the orders of control system if the are not compatible.


Back in the day, there were courses that had "yumps", as the Scandanavians called them. You had all 4 off the track for a moment. It was difficult for the driver to feather the throttle so you didn't pick up a bunch of revs before you landed. More than likely, the drivetrain was going to see some shock as it was hard to avoid and still be fast. However, I had forgotten about Monte Carlo as it is much harder to detect. The cars don't fly like the old days. Although there are some places there with a fairly amount of undulation, it may be difficult to actually see a tire off the pavement. And, the cars don't jump like the used to. All those places have either been smoothed out or F-1 doesn't go there anymore. Anyway, these days we're talking about very small intervals of time where traction is lost because one or both rear wheels are off the pavement.

Not even at Singapore ? For modern F1 cars the higher kerbs that now exist are enough to send them flying.


Due to the effect that it may have on longevity, many times major taking of curbs is reserved for qualifying or late in the race fighting for position.

I was using the "donut" as an extreme example to illustrate that the driver does have some influence on the gearbox and engine. The only question is how much?


Still, doing doughnuts in F-1 is not common. Due to the engine and gearbox longevity requirements, it's something that probably shouldn't happen unless that's the last race for a given engine and gearbox. Otherwise, if you damage something, you're looking at gird penalties for the next event.

A shock (impulse) may also be incurred hitting anything, wall, other cars, kerb etc. These do still exist on current circuits.


As I have said.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your posts, however I don't agree that one can automatically dismiss the driver as having a part to play in the reliability of the gearbox or engine. The only question is to what degree, unfortunately without McLarens help I cannot see a definite answer to this.


However, the majority of tracks that F-1 goes to these days are quite smooth. The exceptions would be street circuits and there's what, 3?

#673 Lazy

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 23:28

These days the number of things that a driver can do to effect reliability are fewer than they used to be.


Maybe less than they used to be but there are still plenty.

Changing gear whilst a wheel is in the air (kerbs)
Changing gear whilst you are sliding.
Changing gear whilst the diff is stressed.
Aggressive use of throttle.
Kerb hopping.
Throttle and brake at the same time.
Throttle steering.
etc
Ask an F1 engineer and he'll tell you a hundred more.

The idea that electronic controls isolate the driver from the car is a myth, all the ones that might help have been banned.

#674 robefc

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 14:00

Maybe less than they used to be but there are still plenty.

Changing gear whilst a wheel is in the air (kerbs)
Changing gear whilst you are sliding.
Changing gear whilst the diff is stressed.
Aggressive use of throttle.
Kerb hopping.
Throttle and brake at the same time.
Throttle steering.
etc
Ask an F1 engineer and he'll tell you a hundred more.

The idea that electronic controls isolate the driver from the car is a myth, all the ones that might help have been banned.


As an aside, am I right in thinking that JB does this on purpose when cornering whereas lewis stamps on the brakes then back on the throttle?

#675 Lazy

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 14:58

As an aside, am I right in thinking that JB does this on purpose when cornering whereas lewis stamps on the brakes then back on the throttle?

I think they all do it to a certain extent, it tightens up the car a bit and you get a tiny bit less throttle lag. Schumacher is most famous for it and it's one of the reasons given for his lack of success recently in that you can't get away with it so much anymore.

I think Jenson tends to brake more on the turn in rather than when on throttle, turns slightly in a little earlier whilst still braking, as opposed to getting all your braking done and then turning in.

Jenson's style

#676 jjcale

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 16:03

Which car failures in particular do you blame LH's driving style for?

#677 P123

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 16:08

All of them.

#678 jjcale

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 16:08

Jenson's style


Button is not the only driver whose natural style is to do this - Ferrari's Fernando Alonso is one of them. The key difference, though, is that the Spaniard has adapted.

Whenever I watch Alonso on the track, I see someone who modifies his driving style from lap to lap.

He has done that throughout his career, adopting different driving styles depending on the needs of his car. What's more, he can do that within two or three laps.

A lot of people do that, but I don't think Button does. He has his way of driving and that's it.


"Alonso" could have been replaced by "Hamilton" in this passage...

#679 Lazy

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 16:16

Which car failures in particular do you blame LH's driving style for?

Only Jayzusss knows the answer to that one my friend.

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#680 Lazy

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 16:19

"Alonso" could have been replaced by "Hamilton" in this passage...


I don't think so, Hamilton's style is just not so car sensitive and it happened to work well with the 2012 tyres, not so well with the 2011 tyres.

#681 jjcale

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 16:30

I don't think so, Hamilton's style is just not so car sensitive and it happened to work well with the 2012 tyres, not so well with the 2011 tyres.


Nah ... LH was still "faster" than JB ... even if they were a bit closer in 2011 .... it was just the incidents that led to his loss to JB.

Macca's produced different handling cars every year that LH has been there ... and he has had to cope with new fuel and tyre regs .... The guy has had to change his style radically over the years ... as a fan I can tell you I much more enjoyed watching him drive before 2010 than afterwards ... because its a very different style of driving - and every year he had had to modify his style.

This applies to every driver even JB ... a lot of these things in the media and on message boards about driver qualities are caricatures and not accurate descriptions ... I am talking about degrees of adaptability not whether either driver possesses that trait.

Edited by jjcale, 13 January 2013 - 16:30.


#682 flatlander48

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 17:20

I don't think so, Hamilton's style is just not so car sensitive and it happened to work well with the 2012 tyres, not so well with the 2011 tyres.


No, when the tires changed, there was great discussion how it would favor Button and not Hamilton. Eventually Hamilton got equivalent tire milage, and in some cases noticeably better, to the rest. He also adapts.

#683 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 17:21

I don't think so, Hamilton's style is just not so car sensitive and it happened to work well with the 2012 tyres, not so well with the 2011 tyres.


Nope, Hamilton's pace was obviously not the issue in 2011, he still demonstrated he was the quicker driver. The EBD style of driving played well into JB's hands, which IMO was the main factor for his consistently good speed, yet he was still outqualified 13-6, and flattered by this given Hamilton's issues at Singapore and Suzuka qualifying. Hamilton is the faster driver in general, Button can be extremely close to him but requires specific conditions in order to be. Hamilton will always be fast whatever the regs are, he's demonstrated this time and time again.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 13 January 2013 - 17:22.


#684 bub

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 18:02

Hamilton will always be fast whatever the regs are, he's demonstrated this time and time again.


Which is exactly why I think Hamilton does adapt. I don't think it's possible to be constantly fast in different cars, conditions, drive around problems etc without adapting your driving, even if it's subconsciously.

#685 WitnessX

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 19:20

"Alonso" could have been replaced by "Hamilton" in this passage...

Beware of "editorials".

Button has been in F1 for 12 years, through different teams and regulations. If was not able adapt he would not be here now.

He had a bad patch this year through a weird set of circumstances, FFS he had to change his brake materials to the ones that Lewis uses, and then we get all of this "can't adapt blah blah" garbage.

#686 jjcale

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 19:49

Beware of "editorials".

Button has been in F1 for 12 years, through different teams and regulations. If was not able adapt he would not be here now.

He had a bad patch this year through a weird set of circumstances, FFS he had to change his brake materials to the ones that Lewis uses, and then we get all of this "can't adapt blah blah" garbage.


See my post at the top of this page...

#687 robefc

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 21:06

I think they all do it to a certain extent, it tightens up the car a bit and you get a tiny bit less throttle lag. Schumacher is most famous for it and it's one of the reasons given for his lack of success recently in that you can't get away with it so much anymore.

I think Jenson tends to brake more on the turn in rather than when on throttle, turns slightly in a little earlier whilst still braking, as opposed to getting all your braking done and then turning in.

Jenson's style


Thanks, that was the article I was vaguely recalling when writing my post.

#688 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 21:09

Beware of "editorials".

Button has been in F1 for 12 years, through different teams and regulations. If was not able adapt he would not be here now.

He had a bad patch this year through a weird set of circumstances, FFS he had to change his brake materials to the ones that Lewis uses, and then we get all of this "can't adapt blah blah" garbage.


I see this time and time again, that Button's woeful midseason is written off and it's pretended like it was the only time his pace went missing in an otherwise consistent season. Where was he relative to Hamilton at Hungary, Singapore and Abu Dhabi? It wasn't just one bad patch, it was a highly patchy season.

Regarding adaptability, we're talking about the natural ability to adapt your driving to different handling characteristics and still extract the maximum amount of laptime from the car, not a willingness to try different set-ups, components etc (he obviously wants to go faster, that goes without saying). We all know Button has a notoriously narrow window of performance from which he's able to extract the maximum. If we are to believe that he's an adaptable driver then why would this window be so small to begin with? The fact that he started trying other brake materials only supports my point. There isn't a set-up tweak for every undesirable trait from a car, most of it lies in the driver's hands. Here's a JB quote which very much sums up his problem in this department:

I hate rear instability on corner entry,” said Button during his Brawn title-winning season of 2009. “It’s not something I can deal with well. If I look at the telemetry and compare what Rubens [Barrichello, his team-mate that season] does in those situations, I can’t do that. If he has rear instability he just throws on a lot of steering lock very suddenly, making the car understeer, and balancing it just right so that by the time the understeer’s reducing you’re into the corner and the transient instability is gone, or has been sort of damped out. I’ve seen it time and time again on the telemetry. When I try to do that, I just lose all feeling for the car; I cannot judge how much to do it by, it just feels so alien.”


http://plus.autospor...m/feature/4274/

Note how he says he 'hates rear instability on corner entry'? No prizes go to whoever can guess what EBD specifically cured in 2011....

An important part of the article in understanding why it is that the above paragraph is happening:

....at the root of it all, it's all about the physical sensations the driver feels in the car – how they sense g-force (grip), rotation (the turning motion) and yaw (the sliding). These are the three fundamentals but are almost certainly experienced slightly differently for each person according to their physiology.....

....But if such research ever were to be undertaken, it might well take as its starting point some preliminary studies undertaken by QinetiQ, the defence agency and former Williams partner. It shared with Williams part of its research into military pilot selection that it thought might transfer to racing, namely human sensitivity to g-force, rotation and yaw...

It found that these sensations were picked up by sensors located between the coccyx and the third vertebra and that they were relayed to the brain sub-consciously – and therefore without any of the reaction-time delay of conscious stimulus. These sensors clearly form a profoundly important part in the workings of our inner gyroscopes. What's not yet fully understood is how they link up to the inner ear that forms such a crucial part of our balance. Those mysterious neuron pathways will define not only the quality of a driver's feel – the fundamental core of what makes one guy fast and another not – but also his preference for how the car should behave, its understeer or oversteer and the transitions to those states.


This is why I don't buy it for a second that JB is adaptable, or can change - it's not an age or an attitude related thing, it's about what you're born with. The paragraph above describes how the human physiology detects g-force, rotation and yaw sub-consciously, without reaction-time delay. How on earth is someone expected to alter how his subconscious relays him information? Because that's what it would take before JB could feel rear instability differently, and therefore deal with it differently, and therefore 'adapt' his driving to counter it.




#689 flatlander48

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 21:22

Let's not forget that both Jenso and Fernando have stated that Lewis is the best at getting the most out of a bad handling car. Unless a car handles poorly exactly the same way each time, that would seem to indicate adaptability.

#690 garoidb

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 21:28

Let's not forget that both Jenso and Fernando have stated that Lewis is the best at getting the most out of a bad handling car. Unless a car handles poorly exactly the same way each time, that would seem to indicate adaptability.


You have a quote saying that Alonso believes Hamilton is better than him at getting the most out of a mis-handling car?

#691 Fox1

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 22:07

You have a quote saying that Alonso believes Hamilton is better than him at getting the most out of a mis-handling car?

Put it this way, you'll definitely never find a quote from Alonso (or anyone in the paddock) describing Jenson in that manner.

#692 garoidb

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 22:21

Put it this way, you'll definitely never find a quote from Alonso (or anyone in the paddock) describing Jenson in that manner.


Are you happy to believe Alonso has said this about Hamilton?

#693 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 22:42

Are you happy to believe Alonso has said this about Hamilton?


I don't believe Alonso has categorically stated this, but he has said that he is the best driver in a bad car (excluding or not excluding himself).

One man who is definitely of this opinion is Davey Ryan:

When McLaren was testing with him (Hamilton) in earnest in the 2006-07 off-season, the engineers were stunned to discover how he adapted to wildly varying handling characteristics and also to how relaxed he was with levels of oversteer that none of their previous drivers – Senna, Hakkinen and Raikkonen included – would have lived with. Davey Ryan's words, not mine. It is pure, raw, undiluted talent of a massive order


http://plus.autospor...m/feature/3365/

#694 Lazy

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 22:59

Nah ... LH was still "faster" than JB ... even if they were a bit closer in 2011 .... it was just the incidents that led to his loss to JB.

Indeed, but not as good as he was on the 2012 tyres, whereas Fred was the same both years which is why Andersen picked Fred.

#695 garoidb

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 23:13

I don't believe Alonso has categorically stated this, but he has said that he is the best driver in a bad car (excluding or not excluding himself).


The quote referred to is a response to a question to Alonso about his rivals (hence not including Alonso himself). It is a fine compliment to Hamilton, well worth mentioning in this thread, but is frequently twisted to underhandedly diminish Alonso. Since I have corrected this point with the same poster before, I became a little impatient.

One man who is definitely of this opinion is Davey Ryan:



http://plus.autospor...m/feature/3365/


Interesting.

#696 Lazy

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 23:16

I don't believe Alonso has categorically stated this, but he has said that he is the best driver in a bad car (excluding or not excluding himself).

One man who is definitely of this opinion is Davey Ryan:

http://plus.autospor...m/feature/3365/


I definitely think Lewis is the best a bad car, but I think that is down to his point and squirt style not being sensitive to the car (relatively speaking) and his exceptional car control, probably the best on the grid. You could see that as adaptability but I think he just goes out and does his thing.

Btw, I don't think Jenson is adaptable at all in terms of driving style (again relatively speaking, any driver at this level will be adaptable), compared to Fred and Lewis.

#697 robefc

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 23:39

I definitely think Lewis is the best a bad car, but I think that is down to his point and squirt style not being sensitive to the car (relatively speaking) and his exceptional car control, probably the best on the grid. You could see that as adaptability but I think he just goes out and does his thing.

Btw, I don't think Jenson is adaptable at all in terms of driving style (again relatively speaking, any driver at this level will be adaptable), compared to Fred and Lewis.


The instances I can think of that might support the assertion that lewis is adaptable are him having to change his style to get the most out of the updates mid 2008 and fairly sure he has said he changed his style for the tyres last year too.

#698 Lazy

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 23:50

The instances I can think of that might support the assertion that lewis is adaptable are him having to change his style to get the most out of the updates mid 2008 and fairly sure he has said he changed his style for the tyres last year too.


Fair enough, I just think that Fred has got it over Lewis in that department.

#699 PretentiousBread

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 00:16

You only need to take a brief look at these videos to see how much Hamilton has had to change his style:

His first ever Q3 session:

http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player


His 2012 lap:

http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player

Just look at the difference in how the car is poised for each corner, and his complete contrast in steering input.

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#700 flatlander48

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:25

The quote referred to is a response to a question to Alonso about his rivals (hence not including Alonso himself). It is a fine compliment to Hamilton, well worth mentioning in this thread, but is frequently twisted to underhandedly diminish Alonso. Since I have corrected this point with the same poster before, I became a little impatient.


Rubbish.

And, you haven't corrected anything so get set to get impatient again, then.

The quote was:

"In fact, at the next winter testing he [Hamilton] will be the only one I'll be watching closely. The other guys can win if they've got the best car; he's the one who's able to clinch a championship with a car that's not the best."

Alonso said this at the end of the 2011 season. Hard to say exactly if he is including himself or not. Clearly what Alonso did this past season with the on again/off again (mostly off again) Ferrari speaks to his talent in extracting performance. No doubt about this. Anyway, whether he includes himself or not, he has rated Hamilton above Vettel, Kimi, Button, Webber, Rosberg and anyone else who might be a WDC contender.

However, the highlighted part I think is the significant bit. Unless someone else has personal information, I can only take the man at his word.