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Jenson v's Lewis - a retrospective view of their time as team mates


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#701 Peter Perfect

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:09

I don't believe Alonso has categorically stated this, but he has said that he is the best driver in a bad car (excluding or not excluding himself).

One man who is definitely of this opinion is Davey Ryan:

http://plus.autospor...m/feature/3365/

I knew he was good but being more adaptable than Senna, Hakkinen or Raikkonen (although we've seen this season that Kimi had similar struggles to Button with the tyres) is a pretty high standard!

Mark Hughes goes on to say about Hamilton:

But he needs guidance more than most top drivers, is less adept at making his own calls than Alonso, Webber or Jenson Button. All of his being seems consumed with driving faster than any man on earth and often that is all that's required. But sometimes – see Australia or China last year – the demands are more multi-layered than that. It was noticeable too that Button was more usually relied upon to give technical direction post-Fridays.

Which I think confirms the view of many that, although Hamilton has few, if any, rivals for pure speed it's the mental side where Button clearly comes out on top.

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#702 rm111

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:45

Rubbish.

And, you haven't corrected anything so get set to get impatient again, then.



[i]"In fact, at the next winter testing he [Hamilton] will be the only one I'll be watching closely. The other guys can win if they've got the best car; he's the one who's able to clinch a championship with a car that's not the best."
[/

I think you have to take this quote with a pinch of salt, probably just fred trying to knock vettel down a peg or two. The last few years fred and hami have been having a love in because of their annoyance/jealousy at vettels success. A few years ago when hami was winning everything Alonso would happily stick the boot in when the chance presented its self.

#703 Obi Offiah

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:58

Which I think confirms the view of many that, although Hamilton has few, if any, rivals for pure speed it's the mental side where Button clearly comes out on top.

Is that the mental side or the experience side showing?

#704 garoidb

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 08:23

Rubbish.

And, you haven't corrected anything so get set to get impatient again, then.

The quote was:

"In fact, at the next winter testing he [Hamilton] will be the only one I'll be watching closely. The other guys can win if they've got the best car; he's the one who's able to clinch a championship with a car that's not the best."

Alonso said this at the end of the 2011 season. Hard to say exactly if he is including himself or not. Clearly what Alonso did this past season with the on again/off again (mostly off again) Ferrari speaks to his talent in extracting performance. No doubt about this. Anyway, whether he includes himself or not, he has rated Hamilton above Vettel, Kimi, Button, Webber, Rosberg and anyone else who might be a WDC contender.

However, the highlighted part I think is the significant bit. Unless someone else has personal information, I can only take the man at his word.


Do you think he refers to himself with the phrase "the other guys"? Really?

Yes, he has rated Hamilton very highly and I acknowledged that in my post.

#705 Rinehart

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:21

I knew he was good but being more adaptable than Senna, Hakkinen or Raikkonen (although we've seen this season that Kimi had similar struggles to Button with the tyres) is a pretty high standard!

Mark Hughes goes on to say about Hamilton:


Which I think confirms the view of many that, although Hamilton has few, if any, rivals for pure speed it's the mental side where Button clearly comes out on top.


:up:

Mentality/approach/intelligence/judgement/conduct/strategic influence - call it what you will. If he could combine Buttons ability in this area, which his undisputed speed, Lewis would be the best no question. And to his credit Lewis is both improving in this area and logically with experience he will improve in this area. I couldn't be fairer about this which is why right now I think overall they are pretty close as driver packages, but Lewis may well end up with a better career legacy than Button as a consequence of lining up the mental side of the sport with the raw talent over the coming years.





#706 flatlander48

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 15:06

I think you have to take this quote with a pinch of salt, probably just fred trying to knock vettel down a peg or two. The last few years fred and hami have been having a love in because of their annoyance/jealousy at vettels success. A few years ago when hami was winning everything Alonso would happily stick the boot in when the chance presented its self.


The thing is, when you see someone's collected words in print form, this is the ONLY piece of information that we have to evaluate. As far as I know, none of us were present when the comment was made or heard a recording of it. So, any vocal subtlety is lost as well as the context of the delivery. In other words, we can only take the words at face value. Reading anything else into these words is VERY subjective.

#707 flatlander48

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 15:10

I knew he was good but being more adaptable than Senna, Hakkinen or Raikkonen (although we've seen this season that Kimi had similar struggles to Button with the tyres) is a pretty high standard!

Mark Hughes goes on to say about Hamilton:


Which I think confirms the view of many that, although Hamilton has few, if any, rivals for pure speed it's the mental side where Button clearly comes out on top.


However, as the adaptability discussion above has shown, there are clearly situations where Button has not been able to turn his understanding and sensitivities into improved performance. It doesn't do you much good if you can't do that.

#708 flatlander48

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 15:13

Do you think he refers to himself with the phrase "the other guys"? Really?

Yes, he has rated Hamilton very highly and I acknowledged that in my post.


I can't, and we shouldn't, read any more into the statements beyond the words that actually appear.

#709 robefc

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 15:58

I can't, and we shouldn't, read any more into the statements beyond the words that actually appear.


What actually appears is clearly in the context of him talking about his rivals not himself.

It's a much greater leap to assume he's suddenly stopped talking in that context and is making a separate statement where he is included than it is to infer he is still talking about his rivals.

Edited by robefc, 14 January 2013 - 15:59.


#710 trogggy

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 15:58

I can't, and we shouldn't, read any more into the statements beyond the words that actually appear.

So is that a 'yes' or a 'no' then? :confused:

#711 flatlander48

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 18:01

What actually appears is clearly in the context of him talking about his rivals not himself.

It's a much greater leap to assume he's suddenly stopped talking in that context and is making a separate statement where he is included than it is to infer he is still talking about his rivals.


Quite possibly so. But unless you know, essentially word for word, the conversation that preceeded the quote, you really can't go further than what is printed.

Edited by flatlander48, 14 January 2013 - 18:02.


#712 flatlander48

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 18:01

So is that a 'yes' or a 'no' then? :confused:


To which question?

#713 trogggy

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 18:21

To which question?


Errr... The one you quoted. Just before you wrote what I quoted. Post #708.

Edited by trogggy, 14 January 2013 - 18:25.


#714 garoidb

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 19:11

To which question?


I think he means this one.

Do you think he refers to himself with the phrase "the other guys"? Really?


I can't, and we shouldn't, read any more into the statements beyond the words that actually appear.


Those words do actually appear.

#715 flatlander48

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 19:38

Those words do actually appear.


Then produce the entire conversation or interview or whatever it was. Provide the text and the context. In the quotation as it appears in every place where I have seen it, there is NO clarification as to exactly who Alonso is talking about beyond Hamilton. You can assume whatever you want, but there isn't specific text to back it up.

Strictly speaking from the text, the only hard conclusion I can draw is that Alonso was speaking only about Hamilton and included himself with "the other guys". While other conclusions may come to mind, there is no text to support them.

Edited by flatlander48, 14 January 2013 - 19:40.


#716 garoidb

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 19:45

Then produce the entire conversation or interview or whatever it was. Provide the text and the context. In the quotation as it appears in every place where I have seen it, there is NO clarification as to exactly who Alonso is talking about beyond Hamilton. You can assume whatever you want, but there isn't specific text to back it up.


The text, as you have provided it, is clear enough. I am not making any assumptions beyond the normal usage of the English language.

Strictly speaking from the text, the only hard conclusion I can draw is that Alonso was speaking only about Hamilton and included himself with "the other guys". While other conclusions may come to mind, there is no text to support them.


That is frankly ridiculous.

#717 robefc

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 19:46

Then produce the entire conversation or interview or whatever it was. Provide the text and the context. In the quotation as it appears in every place where I have seen it, there is NO clarification as to exactly who Alonso is talking about beyond Hamilton. You can assume whatever you want, but there isn't specific text to back it up.

Strictly speaking from the text, the only hard conclusion I can draw is that Alonso was speaking only about Hamilton and included himself with "the other guys". While other conclusions may come to mind, there is no text to support them.


I have no idea how you can claim that from the text, it's one possible intepretation that, as I have previously stated, is less likely that another given all the text we have available.

#718 SR388

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 19:47

Both were great. Lewis won races with speed while Jenson won races with good race strategy and consistent driving.


I still want to read what Lewis has to say when his career is over about what the relationship was like at McLaren while they were together. I bet there was tons of tension.

Edited by SR388, 14 January 2013 - 19:48.


#719 Mc_Silver

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 19:53

Both were great. Lewis won races with speed while Jenson won races with good race strategy and consistent driving.


I still want to read what Lewis has to say when his career is over about what the relationship was like at McLaren while they were together. I bet there was tons of tension.


I am actually more curious to know what he says about his battle with Fernando in 2007 after he retires :)

Edited by Mc_Silver, 14 January 2013 - 19:54.


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#720 SR388

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 19:59

I am actually more curious to know what he says about his battle with Fernando in 2007 after he retires :)



Oh, I agree, but so much of that boiled over for the public to see.

But think back to Canada 2011, you think Hamilton was really cool with that? Or is Jenson resentful about Turkey 2010? They made a point to mention that they weren't friends. I really think McLaren kept a lot of stuff hush-hush as to avoid the fallout from the Alonso problems.

#721 Peter Perfect

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 20:05

However, as the adaptability discussion above has shown, there are clearly situations where Button has not been able to turn his understanding and sensitivities into improved performance. It doesn't do you much good if you can't do that.

True, but I don't think that's got anything to do with the mental side that Mark Hughes is talking about.

#722 jjcale

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 20:25

Both were great. Lewis won races with speed while Jenson won races with good race strategy and consistent driving.


I still want to read what Lewis has to say when his career is over about what the relationship was like at McLaren while they were together. I bet there was tons of tension.


Massive amounts ......

#723 Fox1

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 22:20

Mark Hughes goes on to say about Hamilton:


Which I think confirms the view of many that, although Hamilton has few, if any, rivals for pure speed it's the mental side where Button clearly comes out on top.

There were times when Jenson had all the body language of a mentally frail man. Lewis has displayed similar body language, but that was after breaking the RBR's 2011 death-grip on pole position. The fact is that these drivers are among the best in the world but they’re still human beings. They've all had moments of brilliance and moments when all you can say WTF!!! Lewis has been more successful than JB and is still in the ascent of his F1 career. You don't achieve what he has achieved by being mentality weak or having poor “approach, intelligence, judgment, conduct, strategic influence” compared to his peers. Jenson spent 7 years at BAR Honda and basically did nothing for six of those years, yet he gets tagged as having great intelligence, technical, and team building skills; skills that are "clearly" superior to Lewis who has achieved more than JB in half the time..(Stats, gotta love em.) People can’t deny Lewis’ speed because it’s in your face. Because of that, the tactic is to go with the “all brawn no brains” route. Lewis has made mental errors, but so have other elite drivers. He’s also shown at times that he is capable of reading the race more accurately than the people whose responsibility it is to help manage his race.

Regarding, Mark Hughes' opinion; how about this for judgment and intelligence...or the lack thereof:
Mark Hughes

Edited by Fox1, 14 January 2013 - 22:23.


#724 SmokeScreen

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 22:47

There were times when Jenson had all the body language of a mentally frail man. Lewis has displayed similar body language, but that was after breaking the RBR's 2011 death-grip on pole position. The fact is that these drivers are among the best in the world but they’re still human beings. They've all had moments of brilliance and moments when all you can say WTF!!! Lewis has been more successful than JB and is still in the ascent of his F1 career. You don't achieve what he has achieved by being mentality weak or having poor “approach, intelligence, judgment, conduct, strategic influence” compared to his peers. Jenson spent 7 years at BAR Honda and basically did nothing for six of those years, yet he gets tagged as having great intelligence, technical, and team building skills; skills that are "clearly" superior to Lewis who has achieved more than JB in half the time..(Stats, gotta love em.) People can’t deny Lewis’ speed because it’s in your face. Because of that, the tactic is to go with the “all brawn no brains” route. Lewis has made mental errors, but so have other elite drivers. He’s also shown at times that he is capable of reading the race more accurately than the people whose responsibility it is to help manage his race.

Regarding, Mark Hughes' opinion; how about this for judgment and intelligence...or the lack thereof:
Mark Hughes


:up:


#725 flatlander48

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 00:58

I have no idea how you can claim that from the text, it's one possible intepretation that, as I have previously stated, is less likely that another given all the text we have available.


There is a difference between what the text SAYS and other possible unspoken meanings. I did NOT assign probabilities to either.

#726 flatlander48

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 01:08

What actually appears is clearly in the context of him talking about his rivals not himself.


Point out exactly where that is stated.

It's a much greater leap to assume he's suddenly stopped talking in that context and is making a separate statement where he is included than it is to infer he is still talking about his rivals.


No, because I didn't make that assumption to begin with. Unless you or someone else can produce the text that preceeded the part that I quoted, what I said stands as we don't exactly know any different. You may guess, but you're going beyond what is actually stated.

#727 flatlander48

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 01:09

That is frankly ridiculous.


And that's about the extent of your arguments.

Edited by flatlander48, 15 January 2013 - 01:45.


#728 flatlander48

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 01:13

Regarding, Mark Hughes' opinion; how about this for judgment and intelligence...or the lack thereof:
Mark Hughes


^
^
Somebody needs to check that guy's ash tray. No telling what you would find...

#729 trogggy

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 01:41

What actually appears is clearly in the context of him talking about his rivals not himself.

Point out exactly where that is stated.

If you're going to insist that taking what is said at face value is the only way to go...

'The other guys...' - 3rd person plural.
As opposed to eg 'The rest of us...' - 1st person plural.

Grammar, don'tcha just love it?
For him to be including himself in 'the other guys...' would be an odd (wrong) usage. Assuming he's done that is an odd (probably wrong) assumption.

Edited by trogggy, 15 January 2013 - 01:42.


#730 flatlander48

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 01:44

If you're going to insist that taking what is said at face value is the only way to go...

'The other guys...' - 3rd person plural.
As opposed to eg 'The rest of us...' - 1st person plural.

Grammar, don'tcha just love it?
For him to be including himself in 'the other guys...' would be an odd (wrong) usage. Assuming he's done that is an odd (probably wrong) assumption.


Remember that Alonso is not a native English speaker.

#731 trogggy

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 01:50

Remember that Alonso is not a native English speaker.

Spanish has 1st and 3rd person. As does Italian and French. I don't know for sure that Inuit has, but I'd assume so.
Which language do you think he was thinking in to cause this confusion?


Edit:
Btw what happened to...

I can't, and we shouldn't, read any more into the statements beyond the words that actually appear.

?

Edited by trogggy, 15 January 2013 - 01:58.


#732 flatlander48

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:18

Spanish has 1st and 3rd person. As does Italian and French. I don't know for sure that Inuit has, but I'd assume so.
Which language do you think he was thinking in to cause this confusion?


In 40 years in my profession, excluding people from English-speaking countries, I have worked with people from France, Germany, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Brazil, Malaysia, Viet Nam, Thailand, China, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, Korea and Russia. From those experiences and also living outside of the US in a non-English speaking country for over 6 years, what I have learned is that non-English speakers don't always get it right. Native English speakers don't either. What is said may not be what's intended.

Edit:
Btw what happened to...
?


Nothing. It is still true that if you don't know anything about what preceeded a particular block of text, the conclusions that you can draw from it may be limited. Provided you don't make assumptions.

#733 garoidb

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 08:54

And that's about the extent of your arguments.


No, I pointed out that the phrase "the other guys" does not include himself. That is my argument.

#734 trogggy

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:10

No, I pointed out that the phrase "the other guys" does not include himself. That is my argument.

Flatlander is most likely agreeing with you, but just hasn't expressed himself very well. Happens all the time apparently.

#735 Rinehart

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:42

You don't achieve what he has achieved by being mentality weak or having poor “approach, intelligence, judgment, conduct, strategic influence” compared to his peers.


But that's just it. Has he achieved what his pace alone would suggest he is capable of? No, obviously not.

Poor is relative. I'll just say its extremely obvious that there are a number of drivers on the grid who excel in this 'approach' area and are certainly better than Hamilton currently (but since we are talking about the top handful of drivers in the world, obviously by a tiny amount relatively speaking).

The various examples, evidence and commentary from people involved, and the results speak for themselves. This side of the sport is Hamilton's weakness. Over the last 3 years he's had more crashes, more retirements, more penalties, more strategic blunders, more run-ins with drivers, more incident and distraction off track, more disharmony with his team than Button, by FAR. There is some quite daming reports of his conduct within the team, but I don't wish to pour petrol on the fire here. Its obviously impossible to precisely quantify the exact effect Hamilton has had on his results, but to deny the existence of his approach as a relative weakness, doesn't, in my opinion, leave any reasonable explanation for why he hasn't had more success so far.

And to deny that this side of a driver "doesn't count" as far as ranking a drivers ability is equally short-sighted. The greatest drivers in the sport have all been very smart with it.



#736 Dalton007

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:12

There were times when Jenson had all the body language of a mentally frail man. Lewis has displayed similar body language, but that was after breaking the RBR's 2011 death-grip on pole position. The fact is that these drivers are among the best in the world but they’re still human beings. They've all had moments of brilliance and moments when all you can say WTF!!! Lewis has been more successful than JB and is still in the ascent of his F1 career. You don't achieve what he has achieved by being mentality weak or having poor “approach, intelligence, judgment, conduct, strategic influence” compared to his peers. Jenson spent 7 years at BAR Honda and basically did nothing for six of those years, yet he gets tagged as having great intelligence, technical, and team building skills; skills that are "clearly" superior to Lewis who has achieved more than JB in half the time..(Stats, gotta love em.) People can’t deny Lewis’ speed because it’s in your face. Because of that, the tactic is to go with the “all brawn no brains” route. Lewis has made mental errors, but so have other elite drivers. He’s also shown at times that he is capable of reading the race more accurately than the people whose responsibility it is to help manage his race.

Regarding, Mark Hughes' opinion; how about this for judgment and intelligence...or the lack thereof:
Mark Hughes



Please. BAR let him down. Badly.

#737 BillBald

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:29

Flatlander is most likely agreeing with you, but just hasn't expressed himself very well. Happens all the time apparently.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I do love it when people just keep on digging.



#738 senna da silva

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 13:14

Please. BAR let him down. Badly.


As a great team leader, how come he couldn't rally the troops?

#739 trogggy

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 13:18

As a great team leader, how come he couldn't rally the troops?

Are you talking about JB, LH, both of them?

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#740 tkulla

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 13:21

As a great team leader, how come he couldn't rally the troops?


Had he known how bad it would be Jenson could have volunteered to design the car himself in 2007 and 2008. It certainly couldn't have been much worse than what they ended up with.


#741 Dalton007

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 13:49

As a great team leader, how come he couldn't rally the troops?


How do we know what actually happened inside the team at that time? It's not about rallying the troops, the management at BAR was probably not good enough to dedicate resources where it was most required, for example. After Dave Richards left, the team wasn't good enough until Ross Brawn came in.

Edited by Dalton007, 15 January 2013 - 13:51.


#742 flatlander48

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 14:11

No, I pointed out that the phrase "the other guys" does not include himself. That is my argument.


No, that is your assumption.

#743 flatlander48

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 14:13

Flatlander is most likely agreeing with you, but just hasn't expressed himself very well. Happens all the time apparently.


No, what I said is clear. You guys seem to have honed your selective reading skills.

From the top for the more resistant strains...

At the end of the 2011 season, Alonso said:

"In fact, at the next winter testing he [Hamilton] will be the only one I'll be watching closely. The other guys can win if they've got the best car; he's the one who's able to clinch a championship with a car that's not the best."

As I pointed out, the key part for me is what I highlighted and it is what Alonso SAID.

Now, the question is whether or not Alsonso included himself in the part that says "The other guys...". That's entirely possible. I won't apply a probability to it, but it is entirely possible. But, and this is the important part: He did NOT SAY that he included himself or not with "The other guys...". That does NOT appear in the text that we have. You guys want to ASSUME that he was NOT including himself. OK, no problem if that is what you want to believe, BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT HE SAID.

So, without clear and specific information, how would you know? If we had the complete text of Alonso's interview, perhaps it contains text that would help clarify what he subsequently said. But, so far we don't. We have the preceeding few sentences, but that's about it. Also, as far as I know, none of us was present when that exchange took place.

As I said, it has been my experience that when you cross language barriers, odd things happen. And, this occurs even with people who are quite conversant with the English language. It's quite possible that Alonso's quotes above may have some differences due to language issues. What people tend to miss are the subtleties associated with a non-native language.

Lastly, while Alonso has never struck me as an extremely cultured person, he does seem to have a very respectful and deferential side. Most likely, this is just a part of his Latino background. It is how you make people welcome and comfortable in your presence. As such, you would tend not to single yourself out because it would appear to be boastful and disrespectful. If you want to speculate, that could mean that he would include himself with "The other guys...".

The difference here is between what was actually said and what speculation might indicate was meant or implied. All I'm saying is that I choose NOT to speculate and base my interpretation on what was actually said until such time as we have further information. As for the rest of you, you may speculate at will; just know that unless it is explicitly stated in the text, it is speculation (however probable you believe it to be).

Edited by flatlander48, 15 January 2013 - 15:26.


#744 BillBald

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 14:24

No, it's clear. You guys seem to have honed your selective reading skills.


Still digging? How deep do you need your hole to be?

Oh, and troggy was taking the mickey out of you, which you don't seem to have noticed.



#745 Winter98

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 14:31

I think you have to take this quote with a pinch of salt, probably just fred trying to knock vettel down a peg or two. The last few years fred and hami have been having a love in because of their annoyance/jealousy at vettels success. A few years ago when hami was winning everything Alonso would happily stick the boot in when the chance presented its self.


Agreed.

#746 BillBald

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 14:32

How do we know what actually happened inside the team at that time? It's not about rallying the troops, the management at BAR was probably not good enough to dedicate resources where it was most required, for example. After Dave Richards left, the team wasn't good enough until Ross Brawn came in.


They also got rid of Geoff Willis, and put a motorcycle designer in charge of design team.

Honda really messed up, and they knew it. They actually apologised to Jenson when they withdrew from the sport.



#747 PretentiousBread

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 15:00

How do we know what actually happened inside the team at that time? It's not about rallying the troops, the management at BAR was probably not good enough to dedicate resources where it was most required, for example. After Dave Richards left, the team wasn't good enough until Ross Brawn came in.


I thought it was quite obvious that he's taking the piss out of JB fans who overstate the importance of whatever 'cerebral' qualities JB is meant to have that Hamilton doesn't, as if they are enough to make up for his defecit in outright performance. JB could have driven like Senna and had the brains of Einstein in his BAR years and he still wouldn't have won anything. That's the point - if you don't have circumstances to win then rarely do you win. Neither Hamilton nor Button have had the circumstances to win titles since they've been team mates. 2010 they had on balance the 3rd best car, 2011 RB and Vettel were too dominant and 2012 they had crippling reliability.

I don't put Hamilton's perceived lack of success since his last title down to anything else. Could he have driven slightly better during that time? Yes, 2011 was a shocking year for him, and his other years weren't utter perfection either. Could he have won more titles? No.

Alonso is widely regarded as the most complete driver on the grid, but he hasn't won a title since longer than Hamilton has.

#748 Buttoneer

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 15:04

So anyway, 2010 to 2012...

#749 flatlander48

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 15:29

Still digging? How deep do you need your hole to be?


Speculation can be fun, but you have to realize that that is all it is. I usually choose to base what I think on what I read and what I see. It seems that people here speculate and believe that I must speculate also. Curious...

Oh, and troggy was taking the mickey out of you, which you don't seem to have noticed.


Translate.

Edited by flatlander48, 15 January 2013 - 15:33.


#750 slmk

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 15:39

I thought it was quite obvious that he's taking the piss out of JB fans who overstate the importance of whatever 'cerebral' qualities JB is meant to have that Hamilton doesn't, as if they are enough to make up for his defecit in outright performance. JB could have driven like Senna and had the brains of Einstein in his BAR years and he still wouldn't have won anything. That's the point - if you don't have circumstances to win then rarely do you win. Neither Hamilton nor Button have had the circumstances to win titles since they've been team mates. 2010 they had on balance the 3rd best car, 2011 RB and Vettel were too dominant and 2012 they had crippling reliability.

I don't put Hamilton's perceived lack of success since his last title down to anything else. Could he have driven slightly better during that time? Yes, 2011 was a shocking year for him, and his other years weren't utter perfection either. Could he have won more titles? No.

Alonso is widely regarded as the most complete driver on the grid, but he hasn't won a title since longer than Hamilton has.


Really? He was virtually error-free in 2012 and only committed one or two mistakes in all of 2010.