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Jenson v's Lewis - a retrospective view of their time as team mates


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#751 PARAZAR

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 15:51

The irony. I'd forgotten how annoyed Fry was for Jenson leaving. It seems that Lewis and Jenson are/were in similar positions.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/80208

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#752 PretentiousBread

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 15:52

Really? He was virtually error-free in 2012 and only committed one or two mistakes in all of 2010.


I meant 'utter perfection' literally. That's my point, excluding 2011, Hamilton has operated at an extremely high and consistent level since being team mates with JB, so even if he was literally flawless he'd still have been hard pressed to have won anything more.

#753 BillBald

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 16:27

Translate.


It seems to me that troggy was trying to give you a taste of how ridiculous your argument is.

Your entire argument seems to be based on the supposition that Alonso cannot clearly express himself in English, even though he did express himself about as clearly as he possibly could.

But you seem to be quite oblivious, so carry on and don't mind me.

Edited by BillBald, 15 January 2013 - 16:29.


#754 P123

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 16:34

So anyway, 2010 to 2012...


I think some racing happened during this period.

#755 flatlander48

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 17:55

It seems to me that troggy was trying to give you a taste of how ridiculous your argument is.


I had an arguement; they had assumptions. They tried to read something into the text that wasn't actually there. I didn't say that they were necessarily wrong, but the text doesn't support what they said UNLESS you make ASSUMPTIONS about it.

Your entire argument seems to be based on the supposition that Alonso cannot clearly express himself in English, even though he did express himself about as clearly as he possibly could.


No, I offered various factors that could change how one interpreted what was SAID. But, to go beyone what was SAID requires ASUMPTIONS. And yes, to my way of thinking Alonso was clear in that he said "only one" in reference to Hamilton and "The other guys" meaning EVERYONE else. No other distinction was made. Any other intrepretation requires an ASSUMPTION.

But you seem to be quite oblivious, so carry on and don't mind me.


So what are you saying? I'm automatically wrong? Alternate interpretations are not welcomed here?

They WANT to believe that Alsonso did not include himself so that's what drives their interpretation. Personally, the best I can do is say I don't know and rely on the only text that we have.

#756 trogggy

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 17:58

I had an arguement; they had assumptions. They tried to read something into the text that wasn't actually there. I didn't say that they were necessarily wrong, but the text doesn't support what they said UNLESS you make ASSUMPTIONS about it.



No, I offered various factors that could change how one interpreted what was SAID. But, to go beyone what was SAID requires ASUMPTIONS. And yes, to my way of thinking Alonso was clear in that he said "only one" in reference to Hamilton and "The other guys" meaning EVERYONE else. No other distinction was made. Any other intrepretation requires an ASSUMPTION.



So what are you saying? I'm automatically wrong? Alternate interpretations are not welcomed here?

They WANT to believe that Alsonso did not include himself so that's what drives their interpretation. Personally, the best I can do is say I don't know and rely on the only text that we have.

It's not Alonso that needs English lessons. :lol:
Anyway if you want to discuss what he meant (which is bleedin' obvious but hey-ho) start a thread about it.

#757 Clatter

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 18:11

The irony. I'd forgotten how annoyed Fry was for Jenson leaving. It seems that Lewis and Jenson are/were in similar positions.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/80208


:rotfl: :rotfl: Brawn really cocked up the negotiations that year.
Also shows it was shrewd decision to leave. He could obviously see what was coming.

#758 tkulla

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 18:16

The irony. I'd forgotten how annoyed Fry was for Jenson leaving. It seems that Lewis and Jenson are/were in similar positions.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/80208


It would be great to know how well Jenson would have done in the Merc the past three years. If I had to guess I'd say he would have been better than Michael or Nico. I'd guess 3 wins or so, at least one of which would be a changeable conditions race.

We'll find out how well Lewis does in the 2013 Merc, which will hopefully be a bit better than the last few.


#759 garoidb

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 19:05

I had an arguement; they had assumptions. They tried to read something into the text that wasn't actually there. I didn't say that they were necessarily wrong, but the text doesn't support what they said UNLESS you make ASSUMPTIONS about it.


No-one is making assumptions except you. The phrase "the other guys" is there in the text. That phrase cannot be used to indicate a group of which the speaker is a member. It simply does not mean that.

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#760 f1fastestlap

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 19:58

It would be great to know how well Jenson would have done in the Merc the past three years. If I had to guess I'd say he would have been better than Michael or Nico. I'd guess 3 wins or so, at least one of which would be a changeable conditions race.

We'll find out how well Lewis does in the 2013 Merc, which will hopefully be a bit better than the last few.

:lol: So funny...

#761 senna da silva

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 20:08

:lol: So funny...


Almost as much guessing as Jenson does on his setup. :rotfl:

#762 jjcale

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 21:21

It seems to me that troggy was trying to give you a taste of how ridiculous your argument is.

Your entire argument seems to be based on the supposition that Alonso cannot clearly express himself in English, even though he did express himself about as clearly as he possibly could.

But you seem to be quite oblivious, so carry on and don't mind me.


To be fair to the guy FA does not always make it clear whether he includes himself in these comparisons FA on why LH is better than SV

At 0:55 he describes LH and SV as the "two main drivers in the grid now "and "the two most talented" ... but clearly he cannot be ruling himself out as a main driver and perhaps the most talented.

Edited by jjcale, 15 January 2013 - 21:21.


#763 BillBald

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 21:34

It would be great to know how well Jenson would have done in the Merc the past three years. If I had to guess I'd say he would have been better than Michael or Nico. I'd guess 3 wins or so, at least one of which would be a changeable conditions race.

We'll find out how well Lewis does in the 2013 Merc, which will hopefully be a bit better than the last few.


My guess is that Jenson wouldn't have done all that well. I think he got a big boost from moving to another team, working with different engineers etc.

I'm expecting Lewis to get a similar boost from moving to Merc, although the car itself may not quite measure up.




#764 tkulla

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 21:37

Almost as much guessing as Jenson does on his setup. :rotfl:


Ah, the smiley brigade... a sure sign of a quality post.

Of course there is a bit of guessing in any "what if" scenario. So tell me what you think? Would Jenson (or Lewis, if you prefer) have won a race or more in the last three years in a Merc? It's been a much better car than Honda produced in 07 and 08, and probably comparable to 06 when Jenson won a race...

#765 senna da silva

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 21:50

Ah, the smiley brigade... a sure sign of a quality post.

Of course there is a bit of guessing in any "what if" scenario. So tell me what you think? Would Jenson (or Lewis, if you prefer) have won a race or more in the last three years in a Merc? It's been a much better car than Honda produced in 07 and 08, and probably comparable to 06 when Jenson won a race...


No, I don't think so.

#766 tkulla

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 21:51

No, I don't think so.


Really? Considering Rosberg won one I would think at least one for Jenson and/or Lewis. I guess we'll find out how good Nico is this year, finally.

#767 garoidb

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 21:51

To be fair to the guy FA does not always make it clear whether he includes himself in these comparisons FA on why LH is better than SV

At 0:55 he describes LH and SV as the "two main drivers in the grid now "and "the two most talented" ... but clearly he cannot be ruling himself out as a main driver and perhaps the most talented.


If that clip had been put forward, I wouldn't have argued to the same degree since he has left room for doubt. Anyway, wrong thread for any more of this I suppose.

On the basis of that clip, and also the controversial quote, Fernando is clear that he rates Lewis (and Vettel) higher than Button. So do I, by the way. It is just closer than some wish to acknowledge.

Edit: By the way, I think he said "the main two rivals" rather than the "the two main drivers", but anyway ... let's not open it up again.

Edited by garoidb, 15 January 2013 - 21:55.


#768 trogggy

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 21:56

No, I don't think so.

Is that a higher quality of guess than the one you stuck smileys on? Looks the same to me.

#769 senna da silva

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 22:06

Is that a higher quality of guess than the one you stuck smileys on? Looks the same to me.


OT but.......the fact that Michael and Nico could only score one race win kinda speaks volumes about the quality of the car.

#770 trogggy

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 22:12

OT but.......the fact that Michael and Nico could only score one race win kinda speaks volumes about the quality of the car.

Michael post-comeback is / was an unknown quantity - which is one reason why seeing LH / NR together is such a fascinating prospect.

#771 Force Ten

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:14

My guess is that Jenson wouldn't have done all that well. I think he got a big boost from moving to another team, working with different engineers etc.

Dunno. Methinks he would. He would have won at least the race that he already won - the one Rosberg was leading him in the wet and then binned it early 2010.

#772 Rinehart

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:26

As a great team leader, how come he couldn't rally the troops?


He did, actually. According to Dave Richards and Ross Brawn. But that doesn't put any downforce on the car.

#773 Rinehart

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:31

No, what I said is clear. You guys seem to have honed your selective reading skills.

From the top for the more resistant strains...

At the end of the 2011 season, Alonso said:

"In fact, at the next winter testing he [Hamilton] will be the only one I'll be watching closely. The other guys can win if they've got the best car; he's the one who's able to clinch a championship with a car that's not the best."

As I pointed out, the key part for me is what I highlighted and it is what Alonso SAID.


All I would say to this is (1) Alonso might think this, but it hasn't actually happened yet after 6 seasons and (2) no prizes for noticing that Alonso has motive for continually boosting Hamilton. They were team mates remember...

When exactly was the last title that was won in less than the equal best car where the "driver made a difference". I'd say 2007 except it was more the FIA that made the difference. Perhaps one of MS early Ferrari titles v Hakkinen? My view is that top drivers can "make a difference" on a race by race basis - but to win the title without the best/equal best car. Its seriously unlikely.

#774 Rinehart

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:47

I thought it was quite obvious that he's taking the piss out of JB fans who overstate the importance of whatever 'cerebral' qualities JB is meant to have that Hamilton doesn't, as if they are enough to make up for his defecit in outright performance. JB could have driven like Senna and had the brains of Einstein in his BAR years and he still wouldn't have won anything. That's the point..


Mate, no its not the point!!! We're (I'm) not talking about the "cerebral" (I don't think that's accurate either, I call it "approach" as there is far more to it than intelligence) side of the sport making up for the difference between a poor car and a good one, you've just said that to undermine the point - We're talking about the approach making up for the difference in outright pace between two drivers in the same car, per this thread.

Its quite simple, if Hamilton is a 10 for raw speed/talent, Button is an 8. For approach/craft Hamilton is an 8 Button is a 10. This is born out by the fact that Hamilton wins more, but fails to score more, Button wins less, but scores more often. Smartness making up for speed.

Its pretty easy to take the piss out of something that isn't quantifiable, but I think its abundantly obvious that one is faster, the other is smarter and these two opposite strengths, have fought against each other in fascinating style for 3 years. Its what makes the judgement so complex because it is so intangible and imprecise. Essentially a certain amount of fair judgement has to prevail here, after 3 years, surely.

#775 Rinehart

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:50

Really? He was virtually error-free in 2012 and only committed one or two mistakes in all of 2010.


Be serious. Read the old threads for details.

#776 slmk

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 13:28

Be serious. Read the old threads for details.


I don't need to read the threads. I have seen the seasons in their entirety.


#777 Buttoneer

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 13:54

Posts deleted, obviously.

#778 flatlander48

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 16:13

You know, the funny thing is that I don't know what we are going on about here. In the compilation of the 20 Best Drivers in F-1 by the BBC F-1 broadcast team last Spring, Hamilton was 15th on the list and Button didn't make the top 20. I think there's a message there.

Spin Away...

Edited by flatlander48, 16 January 2013 - 16:15.


#779 trogggy

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 16:40

You know, the funny thing is that I don't know what we are going on about here. In the compilation of the 20 Best Drivers in F-1 by the BBC F-1 broadcast team last Spring, Hamilton was 15th on the list and Button didn't make the top 20. I think there's a message there.

Spin Away...

As long as you're happy to accept that Vettel (8th) and Alonso (10th) are a fair bit better than him (Hamilton) then using that list rather than your own arguments seems fair enough to me. :up:

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#780 gricey1981

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 17:20

So how long will this thread go on for. We will still be debating this in 2016.

Hopefully not.

Come on guys... Hamilton is a bit better but Jenson did equal his points over the 3 years. JB is obviously a top driver. Can we not leave it at that.

I hope they both do well next year.

#781 trogggy

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 17:31

Come on guys... Hamilton is a bit better but Jenson did equal his points over the 3 years. JB is obviously a top driver. Can we not leave it at that.

If only.


#782 flatlander48

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 18:52

As long as you're happy to accept that Vettel (8th) and Alonso (10th) are a fair bit better than him (Hamilton) then using that list rather than your own arguments seems fair enough to me. :up:


No, the point was that a group of people (I don't how big the broadcast crew is actually) should be more conversant with the topic than the majority of us. I would hope that they have access to information that we do not have. However, just because you have information doesn't mean that one has used to properly to arrive at a reasonable and defensible conclusion.

Beyond the 3 that you mention, I would have rated Hakkinen, Brabham and Hill higher. I don't see that kind of difference between Schumacher and Hakkinen; they should be closer. No one else has accomplished what Brabham did with his third title coming in his own car and his final win at age 42, I believe. Under the 1.5L formula, Hill was Clark's big adversary. From '62 through '65 (with exception of Surtees in '64) Hill and Clark were the show. I was always amazed at Hill whitewalling his right front on the chicane at Monte Carlo.

For my opinion, Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton should be closer together; adjacent, to my way of thinking. I would also move them down the food chain a bit; starting at 10th or 12th would be good. Even so, Button would still be adrift and I'm good with that.

#783 trogggy

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 19:06

No

Didn't think so.

#784 Clatter

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 19:40

Didn't think so.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
That was so predictable.


#785 P123

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 19:59

So how long will this thread go on for. We will still be debating this in 2016.

Hopefully not.

Come on guys... Hamilton is a bit better but Jenson did equal his points over the 3 years. JB is obviously a top driver. Can we not leave it at that.

I hope they both do well next year.


Sadly not. Unfortunately there is a hangover from the garbage Vs topics, with the main protagonists now boring us all with numerous smileys and inane bickering once again. Little to do with anything that happened on track. Zero about any of the great ontrack battles the two drivers had. There is no debate, just attempted point scoring from the trenches. :down: This topic has somehow survived the cull.

#786 jjcale

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 21:02

Sadly not. Unfortunately there is a hangover from the garbage Vs topics, with the main protagonists now boring us all with numerous smileys and inane bickering once again. Little to do with anything that happened on track. Zero about any of the great ontrack battles the two drivers had. There is no debate, just attempted point scoring from the trenches. :down: This topic has somehow survived the cull.

): agreed .. cull it.

Edited by jjcale, 16 January 2013 - 21:03.


#787 dans79

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 21:13

perhaps the moderation staff should just lock the thread......

#788 Clatter

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 21:16

perhaps the moderation staff should just lock the thread......


Long overdue.

#789 Peter Perfect

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 21:16

Kill it

#790 Buttoneer

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 21:52

Dead.