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Jenson v's Lewis - a retrospective view of their time as team mates


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#51 ExFlagMan

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:29

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

What the statistics do show is what a relative failure their period together has been - 1*2nd, 2*4th and 3*5th in WDC and no team championships, in what is usually regarded as one of the top tier teams.
Might be worth considering why that might be. I put forward the following possibilities.
Having two no 1 drivers does not really work -
- They take points from each other.
- They spend too much effort trying to beat each other.
Two differing set-up/driving styles tends to distract from the overall development of the car.

I have always thought that at this level of the sport there is not really that much of a difference in the overall ability of the majority of the drivers on the grid - as someone who had been in both situations in his career once pointed out - the drivers at the back of the grid are probably driving harder that those at the front, given that their cars are not as good as those at the front.

Runs for cover

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#52 tifosiMac

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:31

of course not every accident was Hamiton fault but still - machinery was as bad for him as for Jenson....

Take this numbers easy, it is only fun with stats - but sometimes, when you read about Hamilton's bad luck and bad machinery I think people are more tend to stereotype than near true.

Behind every retirement there is a story. Its almost impossible to compare their ability based on this.

#53 03011969

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:52

Lewis beat Jenson 2 - 1 in each season's total points.

Jenson beat Lewis in terms of total points in their time together.


Too close to call.

#54 P123

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:55

cue extreme ridicule of above stats


Why? They are only one set of statistics, admittedly one group puts a hell of a lot more prominence on them than the other, obvious reason being that it has somehow become highly important in the fanboy war scorecard thingy. It's probably not worth pointing out... but as an indication of how close the points tally was; had Hamilton not been removed from the race in Brazil and gone on to finish in the position that he was in then he would have scored more points over the 3 seasons.

For stats:

Wins- Hamilton 10/ Button 8
Poles-Hamilton 9/ Button 1
Podiums- Button 25/ Hamilton 22
F/L- Hamilton 8/ Button 6
Points- Button 672/ Hamilton 657
Races Led- Hamilton 20/ Button 19
Laps Led- Hamilton 479/ Button 369
Retirements- Button 8/ Hamilton 13
Ahead when both finish: Hamilton 24/ Button 13
Highest WDC position: Button 2nd/ Hamilton 4th
Ahead in standings: Hamilton 2/ Button 1

#55 TomNokoe

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:00

Hamilton did in 2012 what he ought to have done in 2010 and 2011.

#56 tifosiMac

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:01

For stats:

Wins- Hamilton 10/ Button 8
Poles-Hamilton 9/ Button 1
Podiums- Button 25/ Hamilton 22
F/L- Hamilton 8/ Button 6
Points- Button 672/ Hamilton 657
Races Led- Hamilton 20/ Button 19
Laps Led- Hamilton 479/ Button 369
Retirements- Button 8/ Hamilton 13
Ahead when both finish: Hamilton 24/ Button 13
Highest WDC position: Button 2nd/ Hamilton 4th
Ahead in standings: Hamilton 2/ Button 1

It really puts it into perspective when you see the figures like that. I don't know how any Hamilton fan can't be happy with that?! It was a pretty successful time for both drivers but there can only be one winner. It doesn't stop the comparisons though but I'll certainly follow Hamilton to Mercedes with a smile on my face. :)

#57 P123

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:06

Hamilton did in 2012 what he ought to have done in 2010 and 2011.


Hamilton was fine in 2010. He did very well to come back from a slow start to the season to lead the championship at one stage. His one big mistake was his attempted first lap move at Monza which put him out of the race. In 2011 he made a fair few too many of those Monza type moves.

#58 tifosiMac

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:14

Hamilton was fine in 2010. He did very well to come back from a slow start to the season to lead the championship at one stage. His one big mistake was his attempted first lap move at Monza which put him out of the race. In 2011 he made a fair few too many of those Monza type moves.

Every driver has a bad season. Hamilton is just lucky he's only had one real bad one so far. The funny thing about Monza in 2010 was how easily he was out of the race. It wasn't like it was an aggressive move or silly in fact. It was just an unfortunate place to be and ended all hopes. In 2011 he made quite a few stupid moves (obviously Massa did too) and he seemed frustrated in the cockpit rather than struggling. A strange year and I hope we don't see another like it.

#59 cooper

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:42

I don't understand the need to say "who was the best". They are in reality very different drivers which I think actually complimented McLaren.

Lewis is unquestionably very fast, he is aggressive both in racing and qualifying. This creates elements of risk, he does go for gaps (which sometimes would be better off not) and has gotten into crashes = no points. However on the flip side he is able to use his speed and aggressive driving to get those race wins which is beneficial in terms of WDC+WCC points (good for driver and for the team).

Jenson however is not as fast (typically) over one lap pace. This of course isn't always ideal but as he and Alonso has proven this season you can start from 8th,10th on the grid and still pick up decent points. Jenson is consistent, he has moments of complete brilliance of course but he is consistent with picking up points.

Together if we had a year where we didn't get affected by such back reliability and operational blunders this would have been a combo much like RBR and we could have won both the WDC's + WCC's. Lewis you could see took a leaf out of Jenson and Alonso's book toward the end and wanted to just consistently get into the points but for one reason or another was denied that.

In my view both drivers are very strong for different reasons. You don't have to be super quick to be able to win a WDC, Alonso bless wasn't always quick in his Ferrari (which wasn't a strong car at all) but he would get into the points on a regular basis, the car and team was reliable and they almost beat Seb this year who was in a far better car. Lewis has learnt from Jenson, better working of the tyres (could have come from sharing car set up) mentoring who knows, and Jenson was pushed by Lewis in terms of out right pace and has really become a far stronger driver in his years at McLaren.. He was put in a situation where a lot of people feared he would be humiliated, but he held his own and I commend him highly for that.

I support both drivers equally and I am frustrated we are losing our British team with two world champion British F1 drivers. Bickering over and over and going round and round with snipey remarks is embarrassing to read. Statistically Lewis does have the up on Jenson but I truly believe they have both been remarkable for different reasons and should both be appreciated equally. No more "My dad could totally beat up your dad s**t"

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#60 tifosiMac

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:50

I don't understand the need to say "who was the best". They are in reality very different drivers which I think actually complimented McLaren.

Lewis is unquestionably very fast, he is aggressive both in racing and qualifying. This creates elements of risk, he does go for gaps (which sometimes would be better off not) and has gotten into crashes = no points. However on the flip side he is able to use his speed and aggressive driving to get those race wins which is beneficial in terms of WDC+WCC points (good for driver and for the team).

Jenson however is not as fast (typically) over one lap pace. This of course isn't always ideal but as he and Alonso has proven this season you can start from 8th,10th on the grid and still pick up decent points. Jenson is consistent, he has moments of complete brilliance of course but he is consistent with picking up points.

Together if we had a year where we didn't get affected by such back reliability and operational blunders this would have been a combo much like RBR and we could have won both the WDC's + WCC's. Lewis you could see took a leaf out of Jenson and Alonso's book toward the end and wanted to just consistently get into the points but for one reason or another was denied that.

In my view both drivers are very strong for different reasons. You don't have to be super quick to be able to win a WDC, Alonso bless wasn't always quick in his Ferrari (which wasn't a strong car at all) but he would get into the points on a regular basis, the car and team was reliable and they almost beat Seb this year who was in a far better car. Lewis has learnt from Jenson, better working of the tyres (could have come from sharing car set up) mentoring who knows, and Jenson was pushed by Lewis in terms of out right pace and has really become a far stronger driver in his years at McLaren.. He was put in a situation where a lot of people feared he would be humiliated, but he held his own and I commend him highly for that.

I support both drivers equally and I am frustrated we are losing our British team with two world champion British F1 drivers. Bickering over and over and going round and round with snipey remarks is embarrassing to read. Statistically Lewis does have the up on Jenson but I truly believe they have both been remarkable for different reasons and should both be appreciated equally. No more "My dad could totally beat up your dad s**t"

Good post :up:

#61 WitnessX

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:03

http://www.crash.net...lli_rubber.html

“"This tyre, I think, has got a much wider working range and that's going to make it much easier to get the tyre working from the start of the season. We've had to change our car a lot to get it working on the 2012 tyres when normally you'd be working on development.

"So it has hurt us quite a bit this year …”

Saw an article in the Kimi thread a few weeks back where the Renault guy was saying the same thing (with regards to his drivers)– time spent sorting out problems was time not spent developing the car – to paraphrase. So is that, + the ‘horse’s mouth’ above, conclusive then that the sorting out Button’s tyre problems DID affect the -27’s development and slow the team down?

.......

I think you are mixing up two separate issues into one.

1. The set-up problems he encountered (different temperature windows on two tyre types were not were not compatible with his preferred settings for his driving style over the complete fuel range).
2. The general technical challenge of optimal usage of the tyres. Which I believe Jenson was referring to. This affected all teams.

If for example you spend 3 weeks developing an aero change that will get you 0.1 seconds improvement, where as spending 2 weeks analysing data and doing simulations, "tweaking" the suspension and getting an improvement of 0.3 seconds a lap what would you choose?

Lets not forget the "tyre shock" really started at Bahrain where -both- McLarens went backwards in the race.

It looks to me as if both drivers were affected by tyres but in different ways.Our perception is to remember the highlights of that period (such as Canada or the qualifying at Barcelona) but when I look Lewis's results in isolation I see a "slump" period too where there is little consistency.

Placement LH (Q)/(start->Finish)
------------------
Bahrain (2)/(2->8)
Barcelona (1)/(24->8)
Monaco(4)/(3->5)
Canada(2)/(2->1)
Valencia(2)/(2->3/4/5?)
Silverstone (8)/(8->8)

Looking back at Canada now its interesting how set-up affects degradation, especially if you look at Grosjeans result (49 lap stint) compared to others.

Going back and looking at the "general trend" during that period I see that Lewis's qualifying was relatively speaking, better than in his races and exactly the opposite with Jenson.

In the end the car was always a quick car. However what let it down was its interaction with the tyres. What Jenson is saying is that concentrated on tyre cooling and that was what turned the car back into a consistant race winning car which benefited both drivers.

Here is pirelli's pre-season (2012) video which strangely enough does mention "driving styles" as one of the "key factors" that affect the tyres:
http://www.youtube.c...g..._w&index=71


#62 P123

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:21

I think you are mixing up two separate issues into one.

1. The set-up problems he encountered (different temperature windows on two tyre types were not were not compatible with his preferred settings for his driving style over the complete fuel range).
2. The general technical challenge of optimal usage of the tyres. Which I believe Jenson was referring to. This affected all teams.

If for example you spend 3 weeks developing an aero change that will get you 0.1 seconds improvement, where as spending 2 weeks analysing data and doing simulations, "tweaking" the suspension and getting an improvement of 0.3 seconds a lap what would you choose?

Lets not forget the "tyre shock" really started at Bahrain where -both- McLarens went backwards in the race.

It looks to me as if both drivers were affected by tyres but in different ways.Our perception is to remember the highlights of that period (such as Canada or the qualifying at Barcelona) but when I look Lewis's results in isolation I see a "slump" period too where there is little consistency.

Placement LH (Q)/(start->Finish)
------------------
Bahrain (2)/(2->8)
Barcelona (1)/(24->8)
Monaco(4)/(3->5)
Canada(2)/(2->1)
Valencia(2)/(2->3/4/5?)
Silverstone (8)/(8->8)

Looking back at Canada now its interesting how set-up affects degradation, especially if you look at Grosjeans result (49 lap stint) compared to others.

Going back and looking at the "general trend" during that period I see that Lewis's qualifying was relatively speaking, better than in his races and exactly the opposite with Jenson.

In the end the car was always a quick car. However what let it down was its interaction with the tyres. What Jenson is saying is that concentrated on tyre cooling and that was what turned the car back into a consistant race winning car which benefited both drivers.

Here is pirelli's pre-season (2012) video which strangely enough does mention "driving styles" as one of the "key factors" that affect the tyres:
http://www.youtube.c...g..._w&index=71


I don't think you can pin all of those results exclusively on tyre/ setup issues, although it is a good indication of how tyre issues are chassis specific (Grosjeans stint in Canada for example wasn't the only time the Renault was able to obtain longer life from the tyres). Granted, in Bahrain Hamilton was on for 4th/ 5th, but the remainder of that, and Spain, was taken care of by operational errors. In the end it's a developement war, and no coincidence that Red Bull and McLaren dominated the latter half of the year once they fully understood the quirks of the tyres.

#63 bub

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:33

Pretty much went as I expected. I never thought JB was a poor or average driver, never thought LH was TDG so expected it to be close with Hamilton coming off better. I didn't expect LH to crash so often in 2011, didn't expect JB to struggle so much with balance/set up in 2012. I think those bad periods cancel each other out.

#64 paulrobs

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:10

My overriding thought is that Button has done much better than I had ever expected. My secondary thought is that Hamilton is still faster than Button. It was good to see them as competitive as they were.


:up: +1 This is where I am too

#65 paulrobs

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:12

My personal view

Hamilton is as good as I thought,

Button is better than I thought.

Hamilton is better - not by as much as I thought though.


Yep, can't argue with this :up:

#66 thesham01

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:38

Lewis 2-1 Jenson.


Fair reflection of their time together and their abilities during the three years.

However, I feel the last third of 2012 is the real reflection between them now that Hamilton has matured.

Boooooo bring the thread back...it was so much fun....still you can still go to articles like this:

http://www.planetf1....-improved-tyres

and go to the comments for some of the best laughs you've had in ages...

Jenson has proven that he is top dollar driver, admittedly lewis just pips him because he is exceptionally fast, and this is shown out in the anger exploding out of a certain fanbase.


Please.

Hamilton is now certainly a level above, like it or not.

#67 Burtros

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:45

My personal view

Hamilton is as good as I thought,

Button is better than I thought.

Hamilton is better - not by as much as I thought though.


Great summary.

I'll only change it to say Buttons done what I thought he would, Ive always considered him to be underrated and never considered the possibility of Hamilton crushing him. Both drivers come out of the partnership very well though when looking at talent.

At the end of 3 years as teammates, Lewis has emerged the better driver but somehow has contrived a situation where he is the one leaving the team for a less competative car. As i see it then there is no winner. Only loosers - Hamilton and McLaren for failing to realise the quality and opportunity their partnership offered them.

Edited by Burtros, 06 December 2012 - 12:47.


#68 paulrobs

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:47

If their careers finshed now, we'd have the following stats over the period they've both been in F1 (2007 to 2012).

Jenson:
110 Starts (2007 to 2012)
14 Wins (13% win ratio)
34 Podiums (31%)
5 Pole Positions (5%)
8 Fastest Laps (7%)
776 Points Total 2007 to 2012
1 WDC

Lewis:
110 Starts (2007 to 2012)
21 Wins (19% win ratio)
49 Podiums (45%)
26 Pole Postions (24%)
12 Fastest Laps (11%)
913 Points Total 2007 to 2012
1 WDC

I know that Jenson wasn't in a McLaren during the period 2007 to 2009 but it's a valid comparison of their careers during the time they have both raced together in F1. Just as a comparison over 1 year, 3 years or their whole careers to date are.

You can see why McLaren are a weaker team without Lews though. Between the two of them they've won 32% of the 110 races since the start of the 2007 season despite Jenson driving an uncompetitive car during 2007 and 2008.

#69 Burtros

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:57

If their careers finshed now, we'd have the following stats over the period they've both been in F1 (2007 to 2012).

Jenson:
110 Starts (2007 to 2012)
14 Wins (13% win ratio)
34 Podiums (31%)
5 Pole Positions (5%)
8 Fastest Laps (7%)
776 Points Total 2007 to 2012
1 WDC

Lewis:
110 Starts (2007 to 2012)
21 Wins (19% win ratio)
49 Podiums (45%)
26 Pole Postions (24%)
12 Fastest Laps (11%)
913 Points Total 2007 to 2012
1 WDC

I know that Jenson wasn't in a McLaren during the period 2007 to 2009 but it's a valid comparison of their careers during the time they have both raced together in F1. Just as a comparison over 1 year, 3 years or their whole careers to date are.

You can see why McLaren are a weaker team without Lews though. Between the two of them they've won 32% of the 110 races since the start of the 2007 season despite Jenson driving an uncompetitive car during 2007 and 2008.


Interesting stats, but its not a 'Valid' comparison. 07-08 Lewis had the best car on the grid at his disposal, JB was saddled with a complete and utter dog.

A 'Valid' comparison is the one while they have been teammates and thats what we should stick too.

#70 slmk

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 14:38

Going back and looking at the "general trend" during that period I see that Lewis's qualifying was relatively speaking, better than in his races and exactly the opposite with Jenson.


It's easy to say that when one driver qualifies where the car should be while the other consistently underperformed in qualifying.

His races were worse mostly because his team cocked up so much. I do admit at the start of the summer they were starting to get jumped by Ferrari and Lotus (who hit their stride at that time) before they launched the new exhaust and sidepods - but Jenson suffered as much as Lewis so I don't see your point.

Jenson just started far behind and stayed far behind, while Lewis put that car where it probably didn't belong (Valencia, Canada, for instance).

#71 f1fastestlap

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 14:40

Interesting stats, but its not a 'Valid' comparison. 07-08 Lewis had the best car on the grid at his disposal, JB was saddled with a complete and utter dog.


You can say the same for 2009 then....

#72 Lazy

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 14:52

Anyway, their time together was not far away from my own expectations:

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=4053653

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=4083022


Nice post from Captain Tightpants above yours as well :)

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=4053645

#73 senna da silva

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 15:01

http://www.crash.net...lli_rubber.html

“"This tyre, I think, has got a much wider working range and that's going to make it much easier to get the tyre working from the start of the season. We've had to change our car a lot to get it working on the 2012 tyres when normally you'd be working on development.

"So it has hurt us quite a bit this year …”

Saw an article in the Kimi thread a few weeks back where the Renault guy was saying the same thing (with regards to his drivers)– time spent sorting out problems was time not spent developing the car – to paraphrase. So is that, + the ‘horse’s mouth’ above, conclusive then that the sorting out Button’s tyre problems DID affect the -27’s development and slow the team down?

one wonders how Heiki must be feeling that he was not given the same support that Button is enjoying and I can’t lie this is one more retrospective addition to a list of annoying Jenson/Mclaren attributes (needy, free media pass(wouldn’t surprise to find out the same interview/comments given to both Crash & Autosport with one employing some judicious editing but not the other), blatant brown nosing / “corporate stumps racing” company refusal for drivers to test at Mugello due to PR, shitty ‘reliability’ of an otherwise brilliant car ).

at the end of 4000 posts of claim and counter claim NEITHER WON A THING!!!!! I personally wish Jenson was as adaptable (tyre GOD good) as the press are so determined to ensure we believe he is (good) that way Lewis/Mclaren would have stood a better chance!

The other person/s I feel sorry for in all of this is Paddy Lowe (& his technical team – didn’t he warn about points early this season? AN geting all the accolades but didn’t that beautiful car deserve to win something?)


....
(calming breathe 1,2,3...) moving onto 2013 I wonder if Mclaren will drop their conservative approach in order to provide a better head start.
Hopefully Brawn is on his game and Lewis thrives at Mercedes


Excellent point about Button not wanting to test at Mugello mid season but still even yesterday complaining about understanding the 2012 tyres! :up:

#74 Burtros

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 15:08

You can say the same for 2009 then....


Question: Did you read the next line of my post or did you just go straight to defensive mode?

Probably not. Your post was totally unessecary, but there we go its your own time to waste at the end of the day!

Edited by Burtros, 06 December 2012 - 15:08.


#75 kpchelsea

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 15:15

May be he is not more intelligent in your words...must be intelligent enough to beat lewis over 3 years??

So button won in 2010 and 2012? :confused:

#76 Buttoneer

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 15:17

No more discussion about time they did not spend in the same team together. 2010-2012, or any one of those, only.

#77 kpchelsea

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 15:25

http://www.crash.net...lli_rubber.html

“"This tyre, I think, has got a much wider working range and that's going to make it much easier to get the tyre working from the start of the season. We've had to change our car a lot to get it working on the 2012 tyres when normally you'd be working on development.

"So it has hurt us quite a bit this year …”

Saw an article in the Kimi thread a few weeks back where the Renault guy was saying the same thing (with regards to his drivers)– time spent sorting out problems was time not spent developing the car – to paraphrase. So is that, + the ‘horse’s mouth’ above, conclusive then that the sorting out Button’s tyre problems DID affect the -27’s development and slow the team down?

one wonders how Heiki must be feeling that he was not given the same support that Button is enjoying and I can’t lie this is one more retrospective addition to a list of annoying Jenson/Mclaren attributes (needy, free media pass(wouldn’t surprise to find out the same interview/comments given to both Crash & Autosport with one employing some judicious editing but not the other), blatant brown nosing / “corporate stumps racing” company refusal for drivers to test at Mugello due to PR, shitty ‘reliability’ of an otherwise brilliant car ).

at the end of 4000 posts of claim and counter claim NEITHER WON A THING!!!!! I personally wish Jenson was as adaptable (tyre GOD good) as the press are so determined to ensure we believe he is (good) that way Lewis/Mclaren would have stood a better chance!

The other person/s I feel sorry for in all of this is Paddy Lowe (& his technical team – didn’t he warn about points early this season? AN geting all the accolades but didn’t that beautiful car deserve to win something?)


....
(calming breathe 1,2,3...) moving onto 2013 I wonder if Mclaren will drop their conservative approach in order to provide a better head start.
Hopefully Brawn is on his game and Lewis thrives at Mercedes

Thats interesting if its relevant to Button's midseason problems, tyres? McLaren did lose performance not long afterwards.

#78 boldhakka

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 15:50

My opinion is that one of the two drivers was lucky that McLaren built quick, drivable cars during their sojourn together. This dramatically reduced the difference between the two (due to the upper bound of the car's limit being easy to reach).

Had McLaren built a car that was slow and difficult to drive during any of the three years, the difference between the two would have been more evident.

However, since McLaren have the design team in place to generally build quick, drivable cars, this difference is not as important as in other teams.

#79 P123

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 16:08

What about their best races?

Hamilton:

1. Germany, 2011 - race long 3 way battle between LH, Alonso and Webber. Sealed it with a crucial cold tyred defence against Webber and a pass on a cold tyred Alonso at the same section of track a few laps apart.
2. USA, 2012- race long battle against Vettel, who up until Q3 had looked to have a decent pace margin over the field. Both finished nearly 40s ahead of 3rd place.
3. China, 2011- looked to be going backwards early on as tyre deg took effect, but fought back to win with some aggressive passing
4. Turkey 2010- pressured the Red Bulls early on, which led to Red Bull keen for Vettel to pass Webber... and a nice recovery from being passed by JB.
5. Canada, 2012/ 2010- not sure which one is the better. Both involved race long battles and passes for the lead.


Button:

1. Japan 2011 -very close race between JB, SV and FA, but JB had the edge. A superb drive, and his first dry race victory for McLaren.
2. Hungary 2011- outraced LH, able to makes his front tyres last a crucial few extra laps enabling him to stay on a 2 stop strategy. Perfectly judged race, keeping SV out of reach in the closing laps
3. Canada 2011- great comeback from last place with some superb passing and pace; and frightened SV off the track on the final lap. Funny to think JB only led a portion of a lap- shows you can never count him out.
4. Monaco 2011- had the pace to win this one, only strategy and bad luck with the SC/ red flag cost him the chance of doing so.
5. Australia 2012- Seemed to be a continuance of his 2011 form, and teh way he opened up an early lap advantage and maintained the gap was reminiscent of many of Vettel's 2011 victories.

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#80 Rinehart

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 16:26

Fair reflection of their time together and their abilities during the three years.

However, I feel the last third of 2012 is the real reflection between them now that Hamilton has matured.



Last 6 races (last 3rd as you said). Should have gone to specsavers mate:

Japan - Jenson beats Lewis by 1 position. Jenson + 2
Korea - Button taken out, but I don't credit crashes, its part of racing. Hamilton with car problem potentially driver related (fatigue rather than tech failure). Lewis + 1
India - Lewis finished a place ahead of Jenson. Lewis +2
Abu Dhabi - Lewis retirement so Jenson would have finished 5th. Lewis +15
US - Hamilton was phenomenal, Button was seriously good after a qualifying fault. surely Button would have finished on the podium otherwise. Lewis +10
Brazil - Button won deservedly after the SC wiped out his lead, Lewis crashed out. I don't count crashes, its part of racing. Button +25

Wow, Lewis beats Jenson by 1 whole point on merit during the high point of his career!!!! That definitely proves he's come of age and due to his maturity is better than JB. :rotfl:

#81 Cult

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 16:40

Last 6 races (last 3rd as you said). Should have gone to specsavers mate:

Japan - Jenson beats Lewis by 1 position. Jenson + 2
Korea - Button taken out, but I don't credit crashes, its part of racing. Hamilton with car problem potentially driver related (fatigue rather than tech failure). Lewis + 1
India - Lewis finished a place ahead of Jenson. Lewis +2
Abu Dhabi - Lewis retirement so Jenson would have finished 5th. Lewis +15
US - Hamilton was phenomenal, Button was seriously good after a qualifying fault. surely Button would have finished on the podium otherwise. Lewis +10
Brazil - Button won deservedly after the SC wiped out his lead, Lewis crashed out. I don't count crashes, its part of racing. Button +25

Wow, Lewis beats Jenson by 1 whole point on merit during the high point of his career!!!! That definitely proves he's come of age and due to his maturity is better than JB. :rotfl:


:rotfl: This would be an amazing joke if these type of posts weren't so common.

#82 oligc94

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 17:25

Last 6 races (last 3rd as you said). Should have gone to specsavers mate:

Japan - Jenson beats Lewis by 1 position. Jenson + 2
Korea - Button taken out, but I don't credit crashes, its part of racing. Hamilton with car problem potentially driver related (fatigue rather than tech failure). Lewis + 1
India - Lewis finished a place ahead of Jenson. Lewis +2
Abu Dhabi - Lewis retirement so Jenson would have finished 5th. Lewis +15
US - Hamilton was phenomenal, Button was seriously good after a qualifying fault. surely Button would have finished on the podium otherwise. Lewis +10
Brazil - Button won deservedly after the SC wiped out his lead, Lewis crashed out. I don't count crashes, its part of racing. Button +25

Wow, Lewis beats Jenson by 1 whole point on merit during the high point of his career!!!! That definitely proves he's come of age and due to his maturity is better than JB. :rotfl:


Tee hee hee!

:lol:

Edited by oligc94, 06 December 2012 - 17:25.


#83 MP422

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 17:30

Last 6 races (last 3rd as you said). Should have gone to specsavers mate:

Japan - Jenson beats Lewis by 1 position. Jenson + 2
Korea - Button taken out, but I don't credit crashes, its part of racing. Hamilton with car problem potentially driver related (fatigue rather than tech failure). Lewis + 1
India - Lewis finished a place ahead of Jenson. Lewis +2
Abu Dhabi - Lewis retirement so Jenson would have finished 5th. Lewis +15
US - Hamilton was phenomenal, Button was seriously good after a qualifying fault. surely Button would have finished on the podium otherwise. Lewis +10
Brazil - Button won deservedly after the SC wiped out his lead, Lewis crashed out. I don't count crashes, its part of racing. Button +25

Wow, Lewis beats Jenson by 1 whole point on merit during the high point of his career!!!! That definitely proves he's come of age and due to his maturity is better than JB. :rotfl:



Haha, yea right... :rotfl:

#84 thesham01

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 17:53

Last 6 races (last 3rd as you said). Should have gone to specsavers mate:

Japan - Jenson beats Lewis by 1 position. Jenson + 2
Korea - Button taken out, but I don't credit crashes, its part of racing. Hamilton with car problem potentially driver related (fatigue rather than tech failure). Lewis + 1
India - Lewis finished a place ahead of Jenson. Lewis +2
Abu Dhabi - Lewis retirement so Jenson would have finished 5th. Lewis +15
US - Hamilton was phenomenal, Button was seriously good after a qualifying fault. surely Button would have finished on the podium otherwise. Lewis +10
Brazil - Button won deservedly after the SC wiped out his lead, Lewis crashed out. I don't count crashes, its part of racing. Button +25

Wow, Lewis beats Jenson by 1 whole point on merit during the high point of his career!!!! That definitely proves he's come of age and due to his maturity is better than JB. :rotfl:


Japan: Button only beat Hamilton because of a mechanical failure on Hamiltons car.
Korea: Another non-fault mechanical failure for Hamilton.
Brazil: If crashes are part of racing and you discount them, why are you discounting a safety car in wet weather? Fact is Hamilton got robbed of far more points than Button in that race.

I'm sure there are more flaws, but I've gotta go.

Edited by thesham01, 06 December 2012 - 17:53.


#85 P123

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 18:05

:rotfl: This would be an amazing joke if these type of posts weren't so common.


Unfortunately the same people from the scorecard topic who drown out any sane discussion wish to continue their battle over here. Wish they would take it to PM.

#86 SpaMaster

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 18:14

Button definitely has the speed, as long as it is not qualifying! He can match with the top in terms of innate speed and racecraft. But he also seems to be very sensitive to the car and can disappear very quickly lot of times as a result. All in all, it did not turn out to be the total destruction many (including me) thought. It also shows that Hamilton does not have such a big performance gap over other very good drivers in F1 as thought earlier. Overall, the three years of Button and Hamilton together showed that they were quite comparable.

#87 kpchelsea

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 18:15

Last 6 races (last 3rd as you said). Should have gone to specsavers mate:

Japan - Jenson beats Lewis by 1 position. Jenson + 2
Korea - Button taken out, but I don't credit crashes, its part of racing. Hamilton with car problem potentially driver related (fatigue rather than tech failure). Lewis + 1
India - Lewis finished a place ahead of Jenson. Lewis +2
Abu Dhabi - Lewis retirement so Jenson would have finished 5th. Lewis +15
US - Hamilton was phenomenal, Button was seriously good after a qualifying fault. surely Button would have finished on the podium otherwise. Lewis +10
Brazil - Button won deservedly after the SC wiped out his lead, Lewis crashed out. I don't count crashes, its part of racing. Button +25

Wow, Lewis beats Jenson by 1 whole point on merit during the high point of his career!!!! That definitely proves he's come of age and due to his maturity is better than JB. :rotfl:

A 6 race sample where Hamilton basically only had two clean races, raced with damaged rear suspension in 2 races, mechanical retirement whilst leading a race, then crashed out by another driver whilst leading and Button did well to score only 1 less point, hmmmm

#88 f1fastestlap

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 18:21

A 6 race sample where Hamilton basically only had two clean races, raced with damaged rear suspension in 2 races, mechanical retirement whilst leading a race, then crashed out by another driver whilst leading and Button did well to score only 1 less point, hmmmm


The anatomy of a post by an hater...

#89 robefc

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 18:24

The anatomy of a post by an hater...


The epitome perhaps?

I don't agree anyway

Edited by robefc, 06 December 2012 - 18:24.


#90 jjcale

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 18:33

...For stats:
...

Retirements- Button 8/ Hamilton 13
Ahead when both finish: Hamilton 24/ Button 13
...


IMO ..These are the key stats that tell the story - whatever view you may take

#91 robefc

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 18:48

IMO ..These are the key stats that tell the story - whatever view you may take


Not entirely imo, JB finishing just behind Lewis whilst Lewis lost a lot of points versus Jenson when he crashed was a feature of 2010. At the end of the day if Lewis bested jenson in 80% of races, with JB finishing just behind, but lost out in the other 20% by crashing out whilst Jenson won he'd probably finish behind him in the WDC.

On the flip side, it's clear that crashes where the other driver was clearly at fault (we can't be completely objective about this but I think the steward's punishing the other driver is the closest we could get) may be considered as bad luck rather, albeit the line isn't clear, Lewis has some culpability in Valencia 2012 imo.

Lastly reliability, for most at least, is not within the driver's control but it's not just a case of how many races a driver was prevented from finshing but the position they were in when the unreliability hit and also other issues that affected them but didn't result in a DNF - Lewis in Korea and Japan this year and most pertinently being classified in spain 2010 are perfect examples.

I'm not suggesting another 'adjusted' version of the seasons but merely some of the factors that are at play when judging 'true driver performance'



#92 jjcale

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 21:18

Not entirely imo, JB finishing just behind Lewis whilst Lewis lost a lot of points versus Jenson when he crashed was a feature of 2010. At the end of the day if Lewis bested jenson in 80% of races, with JB finishing just behind, but lost out in the other 20% by crashing out whilst Jenson won he'd probably finish behind him in the WDC.

On the flip side, it's clear that crashes where the other driver was clearly at fault (we can't be completely objective about this but I think the steward's punishing the other driver is the closest we could get) may be considered as bad luck rather, albeit the line isn't clear, Lewis has some culpability in Valencia 2012 imo.

Lastly reliability, for most at least, is not within the driver's control but it's not just a case of how many races a driver was prevented from finshing but the position they were in when the unreliability hit and also other issues that affected them but didn't result in a DNF - Lewis in Korea and Japan this year and most pertinently being classified in spain 2010 are perfect examples.

I'm not suggesting another 'adjusted' version of the seasons but merely some of the factors that are at play when judging 'true driver performance'


Stats cant help with this but they give an insight into what happened ... that's why I focused on those two. They dont explain why LH didnt finish more often or why or how he finished ahead so often ... but the contrast of those two stats sums up their time together IMO.

I dont much like stats for F1 analysis anyway ... they are almost as bad as lap times.

#93 Juggles

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:38

What about their best races?

Hamilton:

1. Germany, 2011 - race long 3 way battle between LH, Alonso and Webber. Sealed it with a crucial cold tyred defence against Webber and a pass on a cold tyred Alonso at the same section of track a few laps apart.
2. USA, 2012- race long battle against Vettel, who up until Q3 had looked to have a decent pace margin over the field. Both finished nearly 40s ahead of 3rd place.
3. China, 2011- looked to be going backwards early on as tyre deg took effect, but fought back to win with some aggressive passing
4. Turkey 2010- pressured the Red Bulls early on, which led to Red Bull keen for Vettel to pass Webber... and a nice recovery from being passed by JB.
5. Canada, 2012/ 2010- not sure which one is the better. Both involved race long battles and passes for the lead.


Button:

1. Japan 2011 -very close race between JB, SV and FA, but JB had the edge. A superb drive, and his first dry race victory for McLaren.
2. Hungary 2011- outraced LH, able to makes his front tyres last a crucial few extra laps enabling him to stay on a 2 stop strategy. Perfectly judged race, keeping SV out of reach in the closing laps
3. Canada 2011- great comeback from last place with some superb passing and pace; and frightened SV off the track on the final lap. Funny to think JB only led a portion of a lap- shows you can never count him out.
4. Monaco 2011- had the pace to win this one, only strategy and bad luck with the SC/ red flag cost him the chance of doing so.
5. Australia 2012- Seemed to be a continuance of his 2011 form, and teh way he opened up an early lap advantage and maintained the gap was reminiscent of many of Vettel's 2011 victories.


Well done for trying to change the subject.

Hamilton:

1. Germany 2011 - The win was set up by one of the best qualifying laps I've ever seen on Saturday. This translated into a first corner lead which he had to fight for, first with Webber and then with Alonso. Three great cars on a level footing with one of the few times that season the tyres could actually be pushed, and Hamilton made the difference.
2. Australia 2010 - Hamilton deserved so much more from this race. He overtook his teammate in short order and came off badly in the first round of pit stops but fought his way up into third place (including an amazing pass around the outside of Rosberg) before foolishly being told to pit again.
3. USA 2012 - It looked like Vettel would walk away with it after practice and qualifying but Hamilton, again with tyres that could actually be pushed (this is not a coincidence, I'll write about it in a post at another time), tracked him the entire race and took his one opportunity. The two of them were more than half a minute ahead of Alonso in third; Hamilton was the difference between an exciting battle for the lead and a Vettel grand chelem.
4. China 2011 - After his first stop he was behind Button and it looked like it would be a fairly uneventful slog to the line. As it was, he scythed past Button (who was very fair in leaving Hamilton enough room, if Hamilton had tried that on Massa they would both have been out of the race), Rosberg and Massa and then set about chasing down Vettel, cleverly using his KERS to take the lead.
5. China 2010 - Hamilton quite simply lit up the race. As in Australia he and his side of the garage called it wrong in the mixed conditions but what a recovery. Some unusual overtakes including a double whammy on Vettel and Sutil saw him finish within touching distance of the victory.
(Bonus 6. Korea 2011 - He took the only non-Red Bull pole of the year on Saturday and while he couldn't contain Vettel at the start he drove an incredibly gritty, defensive race to keep Webber at bay for the entire second stint without a single error. It wasn't a win and Hamilton was so downcast at that stage of the season that it didn't seem to matter much to him, but to see the old "you are bloody well going to fight for this place" attitude meant a lot.)

Button:

1. Canada 2011 - the only time in their three year partnership I couldn't stop myself cheering for Button. I was livid with him for the Hamilton crash but when I saw him chasing down Vettel at a second per lap in the closing stages I completely forgot the earlier parts of the race, and stood up with my fists pumping when Vettel spun on the last lap.
2. Japan 2011 - He was 100 points behind Vettel with four races to go at the start of the race, so had to win to keep a mathematical hope of the championship alive. He duly did so with the best of his three dry wins for McLaren so far, taking the fight to Vettel and proving his class around one of the most challenging tracks on the calendar.
3. Brazil 2011 - One of the very few times Button quite simply outpaced Hamilton throughout the weekend. Yet another podium in a run of eight from nine races to finish off an amazing year for Button.
4. Monaco 2011 - Button deserved to win this race, pure and simple. McLaren put him on the wrong tyres and that gave Vettel the all important track position because he had to pit again (if memory serves correctly). I remember his pace in the middle stint being superb, opening out something like a fourteen second gap on Vettel.
5. USA 2012 - Recovered very well from a mechanical failure in qualifying and a shocking start from the dirty side of the grid. Some tremendous overtaking and good pace in clean air got him into the big points. I feel this is the sort of race that, had it happened in 2010, would have seen Button get stuck behind other cars, lose temperature in his tyres and trundle home to a low points finish. I really feel he has evolved as a driver over his spell at McLaren so far.
(Bonus 6. Australia 2012 - After this race I genuinely feared for Hamilton. 2012 didn't pan out that way in the end, but given the lack of concern I had over Button as a true rival for Hamilton at the start of 2011 it speaks volumes about Button as a driver that he came back, beat his teammate in 2011 and then caused Hamilton fans around the world to break into cold sweats on the Sunday night after the Melbourne race.)

#94 Dalton007

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:49

Japan: Button only beat Hamilton because of a mechanical failure on Hamiltons car.
Korea: Another non-fault mechanical failure for Hamilton.
Brazil: If crashes are part of racing and you discount them, why are you discounting a safety car in wet weather? Fact is Hamilton got robbed of far more points than Button in that race.

I'm sure there are more flaws, but I've gotta go.

I don't think you quite understood Rinehart's post. :lol:

1. Canada 2011 - the only time in their three year partnership I couldn't stop myself cheering for Button. I was livid with him for the Hamilton crash but when I saw him chasing down Vettel at a second per lap in the closing stages I completely forgot the earlier parts of the race, and stood up with my fists pumping when Vettel spun on the last lap.


What a view!


Edited by Buttoneer, 07 December 2012 - 12:36.
No thanks; "To nursery?"


#95 Rinehart

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:51

Unfortunately the same people from the scorecard topic who drown out any sane discussion wish to continue their battle over here. Wish they would take it to PM.


We'll, tedious as it may be, I'd prefer to read about F1 than thoughts from the thought police...  ;)

But seriously, it was a creative response. I'm sure Lewis was better than Jenson this season, but to say that any conclusion about their relative merits as drivers should only be drawn from the last 6 races is silly.

"A retrospective of their TIME as teammates" should be just that.

#96 tifosiMac

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:51

They are both good drivers guys lets just agree on that. History has shown that Hamilton is slightly better thats all.

#97 Rinehart

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:52

I don't think you quite understood Rinehart's post. :lol:


Glad you did, double-oh-seven.

#98 PARAZAR

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:08

I don't think you quite understood Rinehart's post. :lol:



What a view!


That's amazing footage and the crowd reaction is funny. I did the exact same thing. :)

#99 thesham01

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:25

I don't think you quite understood Rinehart's post. :lol:



Glad you did, double-oh-seven.


Then please explain.

You said:

Wow, Lewis beats Jenson by 1 whole point on merit during the high point of his career!!!! That definitely proves he's come of age and due to his maturity is better than JB. :rotfl:

To me, and a whole load of other posters, the clear implication there was that the last 6 races doesn't prove Hamilton is considerably better. I corrected you, as usual, and said it does because you, as usual, ignore context.

Explain to me how I don't get it.

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#100 trogggy

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:30

Then please explain.

You said:

'Wow, Lewis beats Jenson by 1 whole point on merit during the high point of his career!!!! That definitely proves he's come of age and due to his maturity is better than JB. ' :rotfl:

To me, and a whole load of other posters, the clear implication there was that the last 6 races doesn't prove Hamilton is considerably better. I corrected you, as usual, and said it does because you, as usual, ignore context.

Explain to me how I don't get it.

And?
Your threshold for proof is pretty low.

Edited by trogggy, 07 December 2012 - 11:31.