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Jenson v's Lewis - a retrospective view of their time as team mates


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#101 thesham01

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:34

And?
Your threshold for proof is pretty low.


No one in this thread has any more proof than I do. We all look at the races and come to conclusions. Some of us look beyond the points administered after a race, others don't.

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#102 trogggy

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:49

No one in this thread has any more proof than I do. We all look at the races and come to conclusions. Some of us look beyond the points administered after a race, others don't.

Please don't take this personally, because it isn't meant that way...

You have no idea what 'proof' means.
You've formed an opinion.

#103 tifosiMac

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:05

Please don't take this personally, because it isn't meant that way...

You have no idea what 'proof' means.
You've formed an opinion.

You've both formed opinions what what I can see.

#104 trogggy

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:14

You've both formed opinions what what I can see.

I've made an observation - that the term 'proof' is being misused. That isn't opinion.
Not sure what point you're trying to make here.

#105 BillBald

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 16:27

Excellent point about Button not wanting to test at Mugello mid season but still even yesterday complaining about understanding the 2012 tyres! :up:


Irrelevant point which keeps being repeated, for some reason.

McLaren use the simulator for car development, and also setup for each race. If their modelling is not good, they are nowhere. So the priority was to match simulation against real-world data. Since the test drivers spend more time on the simulator, they were the best choice.

McLaren pace towards end of season suggests they didn't make the wrong decision, unless you think it's easy to match or outpace Red Bulls which are on-form.

It's certain other things which McLaren got badly wrong.



#106 senna da silva

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:03

Irrelevant point which keeps being repeated, for some reason.

McLaren use the simulator for car development, and also setup for each race. If their modelling is not good, they are nowhere. So the priority was to match simulation against real-world data. Since the test drivers spend more time on the simulator, they were the best choice.

McLaren pace towards end of season suggests they didn't make the wrong decision, unless you think it's easy to match or outpace Red Bulls which are on-form.

It's certain other things which McLaren got badly wrong.


McLaren already had the fastest car at that point. They'd just dropped the ball umpteen times already.
What's really telling is that every other team except for McLaren had their race drivers there, of course they are wrong and McLaren are right. Lol . Personally I think it was a case of Button defending the management's choice rather than vocalising his own opinion, which is silly considering his troubles with balance.

Here are the combined three day test times.
1. Romain Grosjean France Lotus-Renault 1m 21.035s
2. Sebastian Vettel Germany Red Bull-Renault 1m 21.267s
3. Fernando Alonso Spain Ferrari-Ferrari 1m 21.363s
4. Kamui Kobayashi Japan Sauber-Ferrari 1m 21.603s
5. Daniel Ricciardo Australia Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m 21.604s
6. Mark Webber Australia Red Bull-Renault 1m 21.997s
7. Sergio Perez Mexico Sauber-Ferrari 1m 22.229s
8. Felipe Massa Brazil Ferrari-Ferrari 1m 22.257s
9. Nico Hulkenberg Germany Force India-Mercedes 1m 22.325s
10. Jean-Eric Vergne France Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m 22.422s
11. Pastor Maldonado Venezuela Williams-Renault 1m 22.497s
12. Nico Rosberg Germany Mercedes-Mercedes 1m 22.579s
13. Oliver Turvey Britain McLaren-Mercedes 1m 22.662s
14. Paul di Resta Britain Force India-Mercedes 1m 23.002s
15. Heikki Kovalainen Finland Caterham-Renault 1m 23.169s
16. Michael Schumacher Germany Mercedes-Mercedes 1m 23.404s
17. Timo Glock Germany Virgin-Cosworth 1m 23.466s
18. Charles Pic France Virgin-Cosworth 1m 23.982s
19. Vitaly Petrov Russia Caterham-Renault 1m 24.312s
20. Gary Paffett Britain McLaren-Mercedes 1m 24.480s
21. Bruno Senna Brazil Williams-Renault 1m 24.842s

Edited by senna da silva, 07 December 2012 - 17:05.


#107 03011969

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:20

They are both good drivers guys lets just agree on that. History has shown that Hamilton is slightly better thats all.

Well, as we've established, during their time together:

Lewis came higher in more championships
Button won more points.

It's too close to call.

Time for Lewis (and Button) fans to accept that neither is demonstrably "better" than the other and to move on to a new subject.

Edited by 3011969, 07 December 2012 - 17:20.


#108 eronrules

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:27

Button definitely has the speed, as long as it is not qualifying! He can match with the top in terms of innate speed and racecraft. But he also seems to be very sensitive to the car and can disappear very quickly lot of times as a result. All in all, it did not turn out to be the total destruction many (including me) thought. It also shows that Hamilton does not have such a big performance gap over other very good drivers in F1 as thought earlier. Overall, the three years of Button and Hamilton together showed that they were quite comparable.



which makes him another David Coulthard with a WDC.

#109 BillBald

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:46

McLaren already had the fastest car at that point. They'd just dropped the ball umpteen times already.
What's really telling is that every other team except for McLaren had their race drivers there, of course they are wrong and McLaren are right. Lol . Personally I think it was a case of Button defending the management's choice rather than vocalising his own opinion, which is silly considering his troubles with balance.

Here are the combined three day test times.
1. Romain Grosjean France Lotus-Renault 1m 21.035s
2. Sebastian Vettel Germany Red Bull-Renault 1m 21.267s
3. Fernando Alonso Spain Ferrari-Ferrari 1m 21.363s
4. Kamui Kobayashi Japan Sauber-Ferrari 1m 21.603s
5. Daniel Ricciardo Australia Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m 21.604s
6. Mark Webber Australia Red Bull-Renault 1m 21.997s
7. Sergio Perez Mexico Sauber-Ferrari 1m 22.229s
8. Felipe Massa Brazil Ferrari-Ferrari 1m 22.257s
9. Nico Hulkenberg Germany Force India-Mercedes 1m 22.325s
10. Jean-Eric Vergne France Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m 22.422s
11. Pastor Maldonado Venezuela Williams-Renault 1m 22.497s
12. Nico Rosberg Germany Mercedes-Mercedes 1m 22.579s
13. Oliver Turvey Britain McLaren-Mercedes 1m 22.662s
14. Paul di Resta Britain Force India-Mercedes 1m 23.002s
15. Heikki Kovalainen Finland Caterham-Renault 1m 23.169s
16. Michael Schumacher Germany Mercedes-Mercedes 1m 23.404s
17. Timo Glock Germany Virgin-Cosworth 1m 23.466s
18. Charles Pic France Virgin-Cosworth 1m 23.982s
19. Vitaly Petrov Russia Caterham-Renault 1m 24.312s
20. Gary Paffett Britain McLaren-Mercedes 1m 24.480s
21. Bruno Senna Brazil Williams-Renault 1m 24.842s


At that point in the season, Red Bull hadn't got their aero sorted out.

Later in the season, Red Bull did get it sorted, and clearly pulled ahead of Ferrari, Lotus - everyone except McLaren.

McLaren gave themselves the tools to compete. If Jenson had been selfish enough (or had enough clout within the team) to insist on testing personally, so he could sort out his balance issues, he would have hampered McLaren's development program.

Some people made enough fuss on here because they convinced themselves that Jenson had hampered McLaren's development, what would it have been like if Jenson really did that?




#110 Rocket73

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 21:26

Japan: Button only beat Hamilton because of a mechanical failure on Hamiltons car.
Korea: Another non-fault mechanical failure for Hamilton.
Brazil: If crashes are part of racing and you discount them, why are you discounting a safety car in wet weather? Fact is Hamilton got robbed of far more points than Button in that race.

I'm sure there are more flaws, but I've gotta go.


safety car and crashing are the same thing? course not...staying out of trouble is a dark art and JB is most definitely better at it than lewis and the points he gains from it are as worthy as lewis gets from being so bleeding quick..

#111 Obi Offiah

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 21:48

safety car and crashing are the same thing? course not...staying out of trouble is a dark art and JB is most definitely better at it than lewis and the points he gains from it are as worthy as lewis gets from being so bleeding quick..

Not this year.

#112 Obi Offiah

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 22:17

Judging by some of the posts JB supporters have submitted, one can be forgiven for believing that the consensus among them is that JB and LH are equals.
Considering that JB only ceded 3 points to LH at the seasons conclusion (which is virtually nothing) such any argument can be made, but does it really have any validity? Why is JB's name not generally mentioned in the same breathe as FA, LH & SV considering he 'is' LH's equal?


#113 Lazy

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 23:02

Judging by some of the posts JB supporters have submitted, one can be forgiven for believing that the consensus among them is that JB and LH are equals.
Considering that JB only ceded 3 points to LH at the seasons conclusion (which is virtually nothing) such any argument can be made, but does it really have any validity? Why is JB's name not generally mentioned in the same breathe as FA, LH & SV considering he 'is' LH's equal?


It very much was so at the end of last year, he's had a bad year this year and that damages your reputation, just like it did to Lewis last year.

#114 Obi Offiah

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 23:20

It very much was so at the end of last year, he's had a bad year this year and that damages your reputation, just like it did to Lewis last year.

Well considering we have been discussing points tallies and points lost etc, LH has also had a bad 2012 campaign, even worst than Jenson with 6 non-scoring races.

#115 Lazy

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 23:24

Well considering we have been discussing points tallies and points lost etc, LH has also had a bad 2012 campaign, even worst than Jenson with 6 non-scoring races.


Do you not think that Lewis' reputation was damaged last year?

#116 Rybo

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 23:26

Judging by some of the posts JB supporters have submitted, one can be forgiven for believing that the consensus among them is that JB and LH are equals.
Considering that JB only ceded 3 points to LH at the seasons conclusion (which is virtually nothing) such any argument can be made, but does it really have any validity? Why is JB's name not generally mentioned in the same breathe as FA, LH & SV considering he 'is' LH's equal?


To be fair JB had a mega 2011, but opinions like the tide change. Operational screw ups aside te 27 was a very fast car, but LH did a better job extracting that pace. Which is why JB is now the top of the 2nd teir drivers instead of with SV, FA and LH.

The question is though on their best day with no set up issues or reliability issues I think it's nip and tuck between LH and JB. But when everything doesn't quite line up I think LH does a better job just like SV and FA.

Edited by Rybo, 07 December 2012 - 23:29.


#117 Rinehart

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 23:42

[quote name='thesham01' date='Dec 7 2012, 11:25' post='6066401']

Explain to me how I don't get it.
[/

How is "let's only consider the last 6 races" remotely consistent with your protest of "context"?

Why don't we just consider the last race? The final. No championship to fight for. No reliability issues for either driver. Both happy with the balance of the car. The culmination of 3 years effort. What could be purer than that. Only the statistical purity of finishing ahead of the other on aggregate to think about. Don't tell me they both didn't go into the last race acutely aware of that one. What happens in qualifying? Hamilton qualifies a fag papers width ahead. Confirming he's faster over a lap. What happens in the race? They're both fast, in different phases. Ultimately Jenson makes an inspired call and Hamilton unluckily gets involved in a race ending DNF. Would you Adam and Eve it...

Edited by Rinehart, 07 December 2012 - 23:45.


#118 Juggles

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:05

How is "let's only consider the last 6 races" remotely consistent with your protest of "context"?

Why don't we just consider the last race? The final. No championship to fight for. No reliability issues for either driver. Both happy with the balance of the car. The culmination of 3 years effort. What could be purer than that. Only the statistical purity of finishing ahead of the other on aggregate to think about. Don't tell me they both didn't go into the last race acutely aware of that one. What happens in qualifying? Hamilton qualifies a fag papers width ahead. Confirming he's faster over a lap. What happens in the race? They're both fast, in different phases. Ultimately Jenson makes an inspired call and Hamilton unluckily gets involved in a race ending DNF. Would you Adam and Eve it...


I do tell you that. You think Hamilton went into his last race at McLaren devoting a single brain cell of thought to "the statistical purity of finishing ahead of the other on aggregate" - a previously non-existent measure of an F1 driver's performance which has suddenly become vital - instead of focussing all his energy on simply winning the race? I'd be willing to bet that Hamilton wasn't even aware of the statistic.

Button, on the other hand, mentioned before Brazil that "over the three years, Lewis has ten points more than me." Clearly it meant a lot to him. I know Button fans get annoyed when people say things along the lines of "Hamilton cared about winning, Button cared about Hamilton" because it's overly simplistic, but I do believe Button concerned himself with Hamilton's results more than Hamilton did with Button's. Maybe that's natural given Hamilton's status as one of F1's two main yardsticks. Let me put it this way: I think Button cares far more about beating Hamilton in points over three years than Hamilton does about beating Button in two years out of three, despite the latter being a far more universally accepted measure of teammate performance.

#119 Rocket73

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:19

I do tell you that. You think Hamilton went into his last race at McLaren devoting a single brain cell of thought to "the statistical purity of finishing ahead of the other on aggregate" - a previously non-existent measure of an F1 driver's performance which has suddenly become vital - instead of focussing all his energy on simply winning the race? I'd be willing to bet that Hamilton wasn't even aware of the statistic.

Button, on the other hand, mentioned before Brazil that "over the three years, Lewis has ten points more than me." Clearly it meant a lot to him. I know Button fans get annoyed when people say things along the lines of "Hamilton cared about winning, Button cared about Hamilton" because it's overly simplistic, but I do believe Button concerned himself with Hamilton's results more than Hamilton did with Button's. Maybe that's natural given Hamilton's status as one of F1's two main yardsticks. Let me put it this way: I think Button cares far more about beating Hamilton in points over three years than Hamilton does about beating Button in two years out of three, despite the latter being a far more universally accepted measure of teammate performance.


One comment? :rolleyes:

Edited by Rocket73, 08 December 2012 - 09:10.


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#120 Rocket73

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:21

To be fair JB had a mega 2011, but opinions like the tide change. Operational screw ups aside te 27 was a very fast car, but LH did a better job extracting that pace. Which is why JB is now the top of the 2nd teir drivers instead of with SV, FA and LH.

The question is though on their best day with no set up issues or reliability issues I think it's nip and tuck between LH and JB. But when everything doesn't quite line up I think LH does a better job just like SV and FA.


Like he did in 2011?

#121 Rocket73

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:24

Not this year.


???

JB had that one misdemeanor with an HRT...whereas lewis had a few comings together...

and considering jb lower average qualy that shows he's even better at it..

#122 Rocket73

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:26

Tee hee hee!

:lol:



Haha, yea right... :rotfl:


dont you get bored of such puerile and ultimately futile tactics?

#123 Lazy

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:53

I do tell you that. You think Hamilton went into his last race at McLaren devoting a single brain cell of thought to "the statistical purity of finishing ahead of the other on aggregate" - a previously non-existent measure of an F1 driver's performance which has suddenly become vital - instead of focussing all his energy on simply winning the race? I'd be willing to bet that Hamilton wasn't even aware of the statistic.

Button, on the other hand, mentioned before Brazil that "over the three years, Lewis has ten points more than me." Clearly it meant a lot to him. I know Button fans get annoyed when people say things along the lines of "Hamilton cared about winning, Button cared about Hamilton" because it's overly simplistic, but I do believe Button concerned himself with Hamilton's results more than Hamilton did with Button's. Maybe that's natural given Hamilton's status as one of F1's two main yardsticks. Let me put it this way: I think Button cares far more about beating Hamilton in points over three years than Hamilton does about beating Button in two years out of three, despite the latter being a far more universally accepted measure of teammate performance.


Lewis is the only one of the two to be so upset at being beaten by the other that he tweeted confidential data in a vain attempt to show that it wasn't his fault.

#124 Obi Offiah

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 13:33

Do you not think that Lewis' reputation was damaged last year?

It did take a knock yes.

#125 Obi Offiah

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 13:35

???

JB had that one misdemeanor with an HRT...whereas lewis had a few comings together...

and considering jb lower average qualy that shows he's even better at it..

LH had Valencia, Spa & Brazil. JB had Malaysia, Monaco & Korea(?).

#126 Rocket73

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 15:15

Yes you are right...seems my memory has been selective...probably not the first time :)



#127 PretentiousBread

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 15:50

Lewis is the only one of the two to be so upset at being beaten by the other that he tweeted confidential data in a vain attempt to show that it wasn't his fault.


That is because Hamilton, in the words of Juggles himself, is neurotically insecure about what other people think of him and his performances - he would have reacted that way no matter who put almost a full second on him in qualifying. It says nothing about how much he was focusing on JB specifically. JB said part of the reason for joining McLaren was to measure himself against a challenge such as Hamilton, and has on more than one occasion described him as one of the 'fastest drivers ever'. Ally this with his reference to the three year points total, and it's not hard to see that he is more concerned with Hamilton's side of the garage than Hamilton is about his.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 08 December 2012 - 15:51.


#128 03011969

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 16:19

and has on more than one occasion described him as one of the 'fastest drivers ever'.

Er, drivers always claim their teammates is one of the best, it makes their own performances look better, whether or not they're faster than their teammate.

Thus Eddie Irvine claiming to be the 2nd best driver in the world...

#129 Lazy

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 16:28

That is because Hamilton, in the words of Juggles himself, is neurotically insecure about what other people think of him and his performances - he would have reacted that way no matter who put almost a full second on him in qualifying. It says nothing about how much he was focusing on JB specifically. JB said part of the reason for joining McLaren was to measure himself against a challenge such as Hamilton, and has on more than one occasion described him as one of the 'fastest drivers ever'. Ally this with his reference to the three year points total, and it's not hard to see that he is more concerned with Hamilton's side of the garage than Hamilton is about his.


:D

What were you saying about intellectually disingenuous?

#130 PretentiousBread

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 16:48

:D

What were you saying about intellectually disingenuous?


Good argument.

#131 PretentiousBread

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 16:56

Er, drivers always claim their teammates is one of the best, it makes their own performances look better, whether or not they're faster than their teammate.

Thus Eddie Irvine claiming to be the 2nd best driver in the world...


You think it's a regular occurrence that drivers call their team mate one of the fastest F1 drivers of all time? K....

Dunno about Eddie Irvine claiming he was the second best driver in the world, but if he said Schumacher was one of the fastest F1 drivers of all time, he was correct, that's a no brainer.

#132 Peter Perfect

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 18:26

I do tell you that. You think Hamilton went into his last race at McLaren devoting a single brain cell of thought to "the statistical purity of finishing ahead of the other on aggregate" - a previously non-existent measure of an F1 driver's performance which has suddenly become vital - instead of focussing all his energy on simply winning the race? I'd be willing to bet that Hamilton wasn't even aware of the statistic.

Button, on the other hand, mentioned before Brazil that "over the three years, Lewis has ten points more than me." Clearly it meant a lot to him. I know Button fans get annoyed when people say things along the lines of "Hamilton cared about winning, Button cared about Hamilton" because it's overly simplistic, but I do believe Button concerned himself with Hamilton's results more than Hamilton did with Button's. Maybe that's natural given Hamilton's status as one of F1's two main yardsticks. Let me put it this way: I think Button cares far more about beating Hamilton in points over three years than Hamilton does about beating Button in two years out of three, despite the latter being a far more universally accepted measure of teammate performance.


Well, he cares a bit...

http://www.timesofma...t-rival-.448739

Ahead of his visit to Malta tomorrow, 2008 F1 world champion LEWIS HAMILTON answered questions from Patrick Cooke via e-mail.

...
Who is your biggest rival?
Your team-mate is always your biggest rival because they have equal equipment.
That’s why Jenson (Button) has been my biggest rival for the past three seasons because he also wants to be the best and he’s always looking for ways to improve.
We work together but we’re also racing against each other. It’s been a very friendly rivalry but when we’re out on track we both want to beat each other.
...



#133 Fox1

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 22:40

Well, he cares a bit...

Don't get it twisted. Of course he cares; but beating JB was step one in a series of steps required to be World Champion. Before I can drive to work I have to open my garage door. The garage door opening is a darn important step, but I don't rejoice in accomplishment when it opens and I'm able to drive away from my home.

You only have to listen to how they describe each other as drivers to see that Lewis is a significant benchmark for JB. While Lewis is intelligent enough to respect JB as a driver, he has never been the benchmark for Lewis that Alonso was when they were teammates. More often than not, Lewis has had the measure of JB both on one-lap and race pace. That trend included 2011; often described as Jenson's "greatest" year as a McLaren driver. I maintain that beating Lewis is the main reason JB's 2011 season is described with such reverence despite being one of a number of drivers who were utterly dominated by Seb in the RB7.


#134 aditya-now

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 00:54

OK, it was definitely time to kill off the 'live' versus thread but there is no doubt that our discussions here will linger on and outlast their on-track rivalry as team mates long after the drivers themselves have moved on.

The purpose of this thread is for people to discuss the overall outcome, perhaps revisit their original predictions from when the partnership was announced, and to dissect the entire time together which is where that thread was anyway. If you wish to discuss any single year in isolation, then please do. Perhaps a new thread gives those not brave enough to dive into the older threads a chance to put a different view forwards. It is not about their future careers and may not be used to discuss 2013 and onwards.


As I have supported Jenson from the get-go I am not surprised that he bettered Lewis by a few points over the three years they raced together. The calm and collected style wins over the ultra-fast genius.

Having said that, I am curious how Jenson will fare in a McLaren developed more to his likings/understeer. And Lewis has won enormous respect from me in the last season (2012). In 2011 I thought he would crack (remember my "no mental zeal" discussion concerning Lewis), but 2012 has shown a more rounded, mature side of Lewis.

Lewis' last funny moments when in the team were his Twitter moments and his being hurt when Jenson "unfollowed" him. Apart from that he has grown immensely. With Jenson everything happened as predicted. McLaren was not the lion's den for him that Sir Jackie (channeling his frustrations yet again) feared it would be. In fact, Jenson has become the lion in the den...


#135 P123

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 00:56

Jenson has become the lion in the den...


For Perez?

#136 Rocket73

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:45

no for lewis

#137 Rocket73

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:49

Don't get it twisted. Of course he cares; but beating JB was step one in a series of steps required to be World Champion. Before I can drive to work I have to open my garage door. The garage door opening is a darn important step, but I don't rejoice in accomplishment when it opens and I'm able to drive away from my home.

You only have to listen to how they describe each other as drivers to see that Lewis is a significant benchmark for JB. While Lewis is intelligent enough to respect JB as a driver, he has never been the benchmark for Lewis that Alonso was when they were teammates. More often than not, Lewis has had the measure of JB both on one-lap and race pace. That trend included 2011; often described as Jenson's "greatest" year as a McLaren driver. I maintain that beating Lewis is the main reason JB's 2011 season is described with such reverence despite being one of a number of drivers who were utterly dominated by Seb in the RB7.


So are you saying that for lewis it is a challenge just to get out of the garage?!

#138 Lazy

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:03

Good argument.


Well it beats "he's neurotic but he doesn't care". We've never seen JB as bothered by being beaten as Lewis at Spa.

Also MW has clearly stated that being beaten by JB in 2011 was a massive blow to LH, but ofc he's just making stuff up just to piss off Lewis fans.

#139 f1fastestlap

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:30

Also MW has clearly stated that being beaten by JB in 2011 was a massive blow to LH, but ofc he's just making stuff up just to piss off Lewis fans.


No, he's making JB better than he is...


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#140 Rocket73

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 09:44

No, he's making JB better than he is...


same thing

#141 Coral

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:43

Well it beats "he's neurotic but he doesn't care". We've never seen JB as bothered by being beaten as Lewis at Spa.

Also MW has clearly stated that being beaten by JB in 2011 was a massive blow to LH, but ofc he's just making stuff up just to piss off Lewis fans.


Well I think Whitmarsh was talking rubbish when he said that. The same rubbish as when he insisted that Lewis wanted to stay at McLaren.  ;) I don't think Lewis was bothered about Jenson beating him...he was more bothered by not having a car good enough to challenge the Red Bull. Though I do think that Whitmarsh and Co's fawning over Jenson must have hurt Lewis.

#142 garoidb

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 12:18

Well I think Whitmarsh was talking rubbish when he said that. The same rubbish as when he insisted that Lewis wanted to stay at McLaren. ;) I don't think Lewis was bothered about Jenson beating him...he was more bothered by not having a car good enough to challenge the Red Bull. Though I do think that Whitmarsh and Co's fawning over Jenson must have hurt Lewis.


There would be no point in beating the Red Bulls if Jenson scored more points than him. I think losing to Jenson in 2011 did focus his attention on making sure to finish races and score points, and it showed in a much better season in 2012.

#143 PretentiousBread

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 13:23

Well it beats "he's neurotic but he doesn't care". We've never seen JB as bothered by being beaten as Lewis at Spa.

Also MW has clearly stated that being beaten by JB in 2011 was a massive blow to LH, but ofc he's just making stuff up just to piss off Lewis fans.


Only we (Juggles and I) didn't say that, of course he cares about beating JB, just that it's obvious he's not as concerned with beating him in general as the other way around. When you know you have your team mate in your pocket in qualifying it's hard to see them as the primary target, especially when there's other cars ahead of you, namely a certain German in a Red Bull.

In the case of 2011, despite early signs of discontent from Hamilton (Malaysia, Turkey), and even after Monaco, Hamilton still led JB by 9 points in the standings. It didn't start to spiral downwards until after Germany, at which point he was a full 25 points clear of JB. The indications are that he was frustrated at being unable to challenge Vettel, and if he was more focused on simply beating JB, then why did his form spiral downwards so badly when he had such a clear margin on him after Germany, what was he chasing?

I'm sure being beaten by JB was a big blow to him in terms of his reputation, but I don't see how it would affect his mindset in terms of which target he was aiming at first and foremost. He knew that but for his own mistakes he could have beaten JB in 2011. If JB was regularly outpacing him, it would be a lot, lot different i'm sure, and indeed he looked shell shocked after Australia 2012, which IMO was JB's most resounding and silencing victory over Hamilton in their whole time as team mates - in terms of being an equally pitted, straightforward battle out front in a dry race, which JB won comfortably. That clearly disturbed Hamilton, and I had to cringe in disbelief at half of this forum wondering why Hamilton appeared so downbeat after the race considering he had just scored a podium, wasn't it obvious?

This goes some way to illustrating how his mindset differed to JB - he only looked so shell shocked because he was, well... shocked, just as he was at Spa. He felt it was unusual to be beaten so resoundingly by JB, because normally he knew that he had the legs on him in qualifying, and that he was almost always at least a match for him on race pace, which is a crucial factor in determining the mindset of a driver - that was his equilibrium, which was disturbed on these two occasions.

JB on the other hand can take getting beaten more on the chin and not let it affect him. He's quite obviously a more mature, well rounded individual than Hamilton is, and frankly, is more used to getting outpaced than Hamilton is - he doesn't have to rationalise it in his own head with excuses like Hamilton does. That's why he never spat out the dummy in the way Hamilton did at Spa 2012.


#144 jjcale

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 14:27

The rumours in 2011 about LH being destabilsed came out of Macca (and not just Whitmarsh)... which itself tells a story - as it is clear that he started to spit the dummy as early as Mal and for the early part of the season he was in front of JB..... By Canada LH clearly wanted out of the team hence he publicly went to see Horner.

We will have to wait - maybe till the end of his career - to find out exactly what happened in 2011 .... but I dont buy that his problem was that he was being beaten by JB - it certainly was not the case at the start and his conduct was equaly bad at the start as it was at the end of that season.

#145 garoidb

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 14:52

The rumours in 2011 about LH being destabilsed came out of Macca (and not just Whitmarsh)... which itself tells a story - as it is clear that he started to spit the dummy as early as Mal and for the early part of the season he was in front of JB..... By Canada LH clearly wanted out of the team hence he publicly went to see Horner.

We will have to wait - maybe till the end of his career - to find out exactly what happened in 2011 .... but I dont buy that his problem was that he was being beaten by JB - it certainly was not the case at the start and his conduct was equaly bad at the start as it was at the end of that season.


Perhaps. Or the stories could come out sooner now that Lewis is no longer at McLaren (either through Lewis being more free to talk, or people who are or were at McLaren feeling able to comment now). The idea, seemingly entertained by himself, that Lewis may return to McLaren might keep people quiet for the moment though.

#146 Lazy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:31

Rene Speksnijder:
 We learned that you are a bit more harsh on the engine then Romain. In which way does that affect the car? Furthermore, how do you like the engine to pick-up regarding your use of the throttle?

KR: I have driven the car and used the throttle in the same way all my career. Every driver has his own style of going fast. This is mine. It is maybe a bit harsh, but it remains within the scope of what the Renault engine can take.


Interesting quote from kimi for those that think the driver has no affect on car reliability.


#147 f1fastestlap

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:50

Rene Speksnijder:
 We learned that you are a bit more harsh on the engine then Romain. In which way does that affect the car? Furthermore, how do you like the engine to pick-up regarding your use of the throttle?

KR: I have driven the car and used the throttle in the same way all my career. Every driver has his own style of going fast. This is mine. It is maybe a bit harsh, but it remains within the scope of what the Renault engine can take.


Interesting quote from kimi for those that think the driver has no affect on car reliability.


Oh lazy, lazy, guess you missed the last part "but it remains within the scope of what the Renault engine can take."
Go and find another gem for us will you...

Edited by f1fastestlap, 10 December 2012 - 07:51.


#148 Lazy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:06

Oh lazy, lazy, guess you missed the last part "but it remains within the scope of what the Renault engine can take."
Go and find another gem for us will you...


Doh.

Ofc, and no driver would deliberately drive so as to damage the car.

What it indicates is that some drivers are harder on their equipment than others and that driver input is not isolated by modern control systems. There will always be flaws in design and production, these drivers are more likely to aggravate these issues than others.

I'm sorry if the point is a bit subtle for you to grasp.

#149 jjcale

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:17

Rene Speksnijder:
 We learned that you are a bit more harsh on the engine then Romain. In which way does that affect the car? Furthermore, how do you like the engine to pick-up regarding your use of the throttle?

KR: I have driven the car and used the throttle in the same way all my career. Every driver has his own style of going fast. This is mine. It is maybe a bit harsh, but it remains within the scope of what the Renault engine can take.


Interesting quote from kimi for those that think the driver has no affect on car reliability.


Great example dude - the guy who finished every race this season telling us that even his harsh throttle inputs are well within modern tolerances....

#150 Lazy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:23

Great example dude - the guy who finished every race this season telling us that even his harsh throttle inputs are well within modern tolerances....


Indeed, but it clearly indicates that some drivers input is harsher than others.

Why do you think the question was asked if there is no issue?