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Jenson v's Lewis - a retrospective view of their time as team mates


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#151 Obi Offiah

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:25

Doh.

Ofc, and no driver would deliberately drive so as to damage the car.

What it indicates is that some drivers are harder on their equipment than others and that driver input is not isolated by modern control systems. There will always be flaws in design and production, these drivers are more likely to aggravate these issues than others.

I'm sorry if the point is a bit subtle for you to grasp.

Well an argument could be made that this is almost always the case with the faster driver in a team. If the the faster driver carries more speed through a corner and subsequently down the following straight, the engine behind him would have a higher duty cycle and thus be naturally subjected to more stress/wear and tear.

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#152 f1fastestlap

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:36

Doh.

Ofc, and no driver would deliberately drive so as to damage the car.

What it indicates is that some drivers are harder on their equipment than others and that driver input is not isolated by modern control systems. There will always be flaws in design and production, these drivers are more likely to aggravate these issues than others.

I'm sorry if the point is a bit subtle for you to grasp.


Doh, what indicates is the faster driver will stress the machine more than the slower one, for ex: you can't go faster with less RPMs, on the throttle later, and so on....
Is this subtle enough for you to grasp?

#153 Lazy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:40

Well an argument could be made that this is almost always the case with the faster driver in a team. If the the faster driver carries more speed through a corner and subsequently down the following straight, the engine behind him would have a higher duty cycle and thus be naturally subjected to more stress/wear and tear.


Indeed, there is always a trade off between ultimate speed and it's consequences.

As has been said many times, there is more to motor racing than just pace.

#154 teejay

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:45

How many times with all things being equal (no car damage, crashes etc) did Jenson lap Lewis on the way to winning a GP?

#155 Rocket73

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 10:00

Doh, what indicates is the faster driver will stress the machine more than the slower one, for ex: you can't go faster with less RPMs, on the throttle later, and so on....
Is this subtle enough for you to grasp?


Do you REALLY think that the driver has no affect on the reliability of the car?

Really?

#156 kpchelsea

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 10:23

Do you REALLY think that the driver has no affect on the reliability of the car?

Really?

In 2005 Kimi must have had the worse reliability of all the drivers this year he had the best reliability, yet he states he's never changed the way he drives the car. Schumacher's dominant years at Ferrari were based in part to excellent reliability but this year he's experienced poor reliability, even super car friendly Button has experienced some reliability issues at McLaren, i'm tipping its more to do with the car.

#157 Rocket73

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 10:31

In 2005 Kimi must have had the worse reliability of all the drivers this year he had the best reliability, yet he states he's never changed the way he drives the car. Schumacher's dominant years at Ferrari were based in part to excellent reliability but this year he's experienced poor reliability, even super car friendly Button has experienced some reliability issues at McLaren, i'm tipping its more to do with the car.


so at the end of the day the driver DOES have an affect on reliability.



#158 MP422

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 10:57

How many times with all things being equal (no car damage, crashes etc) did Jenson lap Lewis on the way to winning a GP?


Zero.

#159 Lazy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 11:06

Doh, what indicates is the faster driver will stress the machine more than the slower one, for ex: you can't go faster with less RPMs, on the throttle later, and so on....
Is this subtle enough for you to grasp?


This clearly shows a superficial understanding of the process.

It's not a matter of having the highest rpm or being on the throttle earliest, it's a matter of having the right rpm for the situation, of having the right amount of throttle at the right time.

Any idiot can jump on the throttle early and rev the **** out of the engine, it won't necessarily result in the fastest lap times though.

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#160 kpchelsea

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 11:11

so at the end of the day the driver DOES have an affect on reliability.

Only if certain parts get broken like from wacking a kerb miles to hard, apart from that there's no evidence whatsoever its the drivers fault and any such claim can be shot down in many different ways

#161 Rocket73

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:25

Only if certain parts get broken like from wacking a kerb miles to hard, apart from that there's no evidence whatsoever its the drivers fault and any such claim can be shot down in many different ways


yeah right that's ALL a driver can do that harm the car!

Lewis is praised often for his tail happy style...but this places more stress in the gearbox...what's not talked about so often by his admirers is the amount of gearboxes he gets through compared to JB.

It amazes me that we are having this discussion tbh..though it shouldn't because I have had many times before on this thread... :|


#162 kpchelsea

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:40

yeah right that's ALL a driver can do that harm the car!

Lewis is praised often for his tail happy style...but this places more stress in the gearbox...what's not talked about so often by his admirers is the amount of gearboxes he gets through compared to JB.

It amazes me that we are having this discussion tbh..though it shouldn't because I have had many times before on this thread... :|

I'm busy atm so just a short reply for now

Regarding tail happy slides, you can't do that with the Pirelli's unless you want to be changing tyres more than the norm

#163 Rinehart

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 13:11

Judging by some of the posts JB supporters have submitted, one can be forgiven for believing that the consensus among them is that JB and LH are equals.
Considering that JB only ceded 3 points to LH at the seasons conclusion (which is virtually nothing) such any argument can be made, but does it really have any validity? Why is JB's name not generally mentioned in the same breathe as FA, LH & SV considering he 'is' LH's equal?


I find a lot of "popular views" are peddled on here as being "popular views" when actually they are the views of someone wanting it to be the "popular view" but there being no actual evidence for it being the "popular view".

For just one instance, CH has just identified Lewis, Jenson and Nando as key challengers next season. Do we dismiss that due to some cunning agenda? Would CH blatantly state something unbelievable for effect?

I think its fir to say JB's stock has fallen a little this year due to his problems, so on current form LH, SV and FA sit a nose ahead of him, fair enough, but over the long term I get the impression a lot of the paddock rate JB extremely highly and would worry just as much about him in a top car as they do about the others. And the tables are reset for 2013. How could they not. He did the business in 2009, so given the car, they can't and don't dismiss him. I also believe that the F1 fraternity value any WDC won much more highly than many fans do. It really doesn't matter how advantageous the car is, F1 teams know who tight the margins are and how high the pressure is regardless. To win won, puts you up there in their eyes, be in no doubt about that.




#164 ExFlagMan

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 13:14

Oh lazy, lazy, guess you missed the last part "but it remains within the scope of what the Renault engine can take."
Go and find another gem for us will you...

Right up to the point until it goes bang...

#165 Rinehart

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 13:15

I do tell you that. You think Hamilton went into his last race at McLaren devoting a single brain cell of thought to "the statistical purity of finishing ahead of the other on aggregate" - a previously non-existent measure of an F1 driver's performance which has suddenly become vital - instead of focussing all his energy on simply winning the race? I'd be willing to bet that Hamilton wasn't even aware of the statistic.


Well, your theory is as likely to be correct as mine. I'm completely sure he would have been very aware of and cared about that statistic. Your not. Fine. Irrespective, they were surely motivated to beat each other one last time, that can't be disputed. It was a "pure" final race. Both drivers happy, no title at stake, just the best result to aim for.

#166 Rinehart

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 13:18

Don't get it twisted. Of course he cares; but beating JB was step one in a series of steps required to be World Champion.



Practice what you preach then. The claim was he doesn't care. But Hamilton is quoted as stating his number 1 focus was his teamate, JB. Any deviation from that, is a twist. Thank you.

#167 Rinehart

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 13:23

Well I think Whitmarsh was talking rubbish when he said that.


1. It would have been completely counter-productive and needlessly disruptive if MW had been lying so I don't see any grounding to say it was a lie.

2. The agenda is obvious. People who think that Lewis is much better than Jenson, can't possibly believe that Lewis was focused on beating Jenson (as ALL teamates are) as it undermines their argument/belief. Much better to claim Lewis was above it and in doing so imply Lewis is better and belittle Jenson at the same time. But don't kid yourself, everyone here knows both sides of this little tap dance.

#168 Rinehart

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 13:27

Oh lazy, lazy, guess you missed the last part "but it remains within the scope of what the Renault engine can take."
Go and find another gem for us will you...


But it confirms that (1) the driver has influence (2) there is operating beyond what the engine can take.
Not to mention, the "limit" isn't an exact science or cars would never fail...

#169 P123

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 13:30

And why is what Whitmarsh said deemed so worthy of arguement? A driver not happy with finishing behind a teammate- seems obvious for a competitive person, so I don't see the need for the 'no, it's not true' responses. Similarly, for those who wish to spin it as affecting Hamilton's driving.... well he was ahead in the WDC after Monaco, and when he fell behind after Canada (his two most troubled races) fought back again and led once more, so that spin is just another forum myth being presented as fact. I had always thought it was a combination of LH tripping over the likes of Kobayashi and Massa, and JB driving at his peak.

Edited by P123, 10 December 2012 - 13:30.


#170 P123

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 13:38

But it confirms that (1) the driver has influence (2) there is operating beyond what the engine can take.
Not to mention, the "limit" isn't an exact science or cars would never fail...


We do knowthat McLaren were scratching ther heads over several failures this season, including those for JB. F1 is as reliable as it ever has been- so either the drivers are so much better these days, or the engineering safeguards and parameters have evolved in their favour. I suppose teh arguement here is the wish to pin the main influence of the failures on Hamilton. Quite a turnaround from previous digs about Hamilton having such a reliable car... but he's not the first driver to face such criticism based on little to no evidence. Unless he tweets his telemetry.  ;)

#171 Watkins74

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 13:39

And why is what Whitmarsh said deemed so worthy of arguement? A driver not happy with finishing behind a teammate- seems obvious for a competitive person, so I don't see the need for the 'no, it's not true' responses. Similarly, for those who wish to spin it as affecting Hamilton's driving.... well he was ahead in the WDC after Monaco, and when he fell behind after Canada (his two most troubled races) fought back again and led once more, so that spin is just another forum myth being presented as fact. I had always thought it was a combination of LH tripping over the likes of Kobayashi and Massa, and JB driving at his peak.

Lewis driving was fantastic in 2012 that cannot be denied, however I see more and more the attempts to absolve him of any fault in numerous accidents in 2011.



#172 Rinehart

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 14:10

We do knowthat McLaren were scratching ther heads over several failures this season, including those for JB. F1 is as reliable as it ever has been- so either the drivers are so much better these days, or the engineering safeguards and parameters have evolved in their favour. I suppose teh arguement here is the wish to pin the main influence of the failures on Hamilton. Quite a turnaround from previous digs about Hamilton having such a reliable car... but he's not the first driver to face such criticism based on little to no evidence. Unless he tweets his telemetry. ;)


Not at all. My view is that drivers can and do have an effect on the reliability of the car and therefore the more retirements a driver has, it stands to reason he's may have had an effect on that but how often and on which occasions haven't been disclosed to me or you so all we can do is speculate. There is definitely nothing concrete we can pin on Hamilton and its possible that even with the greater statistics its possible he wasn't influential. So would the other side admit that equally it is possible? That is all. You won't here me stating "defiantly" just that the possibilities exist.

#173 Rinehart

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 14:11

Lewis driving was fantastic in 2012 that cannot be denied, however I see more and more the attempts to absolve him of any fault in numerous accidents in 2011.


Time being a healer and all that. If the seasons had gone 2012, 2010, 2011 we'd be having a different discussion!

#174 Obi Offiah

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 14:42

This clearly shows a superficial understanding of the process.

It's not a matter of having the highest rpm or being on the throttle earliest, it's a matter of having the right rpm for the situation, of having the right amount of throttle at the right time.

Any idiot can jump on the throttle early and rev the **** out of the engine, it won't necessarily result in the fastest lap times though.

I have serious doubts about whether such an ability can exist in a drivers skill set. There are reasons why some drivers may be more mechanically sympathetic that others, but 'having the right rpm for the situation' isn't one of them in my book. Drivers are supposed to drive to the limits of the equipment they have been provided and some drivers are able to place their cars closer to this limit than others by virtue of their talent. Their are occasion when drivers have been cruising and their equipment still fails.

#175 tifosiMac

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 14:43

Not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Join the club.

#176 Obi Offiah

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 14:47

I find a lot of "popular views" are peddled on here as being "popular views" when actually they are the views of someone wanting it to be the "popular view" but there being no actual evidence for it being the "popular view".

For just one instance, CH has just identified Lewis, Jenson and Nando as key challengers next season. Do we dismiss that due to some cunning agenda? Would CH blatantly state something unbelievable for effect?

I have said in the past that JB is very quick, however I think CH (Christian Horner (I haven't seen or heard these statements)?) would be unwise to discount McLaren and JB will be the lead driver for McLaren, Perez is an unknown.

#177 Rybo

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 14:59

So are you saying that for lewis it is a challenge just to get out of the garage?!


I think he means beating your team mate is the first as you share a garage, once you do that you can take on everyone else. So to win the WDC you have to "get out of the garage."

#178 Burtros

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 15:12

We do knowthat McLaren were scratching ther heads over several failures this season, including those for JB. F1 is as reliable as it ever has been- so either the drivers are so much better these days, or the engineering safeguards and parameters have evolved in their favour. I suppose teh arguement here is the wish to pin the main influence of the failures on Hamilton. Quite a turnaround from previous digs about Hamilton having such a reliable car... but he's not the first driver to face such criticism based on little to no evidence. Unless he tweets his telemetry.;)


The idea that a driver has no influence on it all just doesnt sit with me. Every user of an item has an impact on its performance. My brother gets through mobiles like theres no tomorrow. Ive broken one in my life. Its not down to luck. I just treat mine more gently. My car keeps muching gearboxes. Its not bad luck, its because my driving style makes gear changes very harsh - something that would cope for the most part doesnt so well with my driving.

Why are components of an F1 car different? They are designed, have built in life spans and how one person uses that will differ to the next person. Does that difference have no effect at all on the item in question?

I suspect you give away rather a lot more than you realise with your 'I suppose teh arguement here is the wish to pin the main influence of the failures on Hamilton. Quite a turnaround from previous digs about Hamilton having such a reliable car..'

I dont see anyone saying Hamilton is the 'main' influence, and would suggest you are more interested in absolving Hamilton of any blame than you are of finding the truth.

Edited by Burtros, 10 December 2012 - 15:12.


#179 inca_roads

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 15:21

yeah right that's ALL a driver can do that harm the car!

Lewis is praised often for his tail happy style...but this places more stress in the gearbox...what's not talked about so often by his admirers is the amount of gearboxes he gets through compared to JB.

It amazes me that we are having this discussion tbh..though it shouldn't because I have had many times before on this thread... :|


He was way more "tail happy" when he was team-mates with Alonso, as the tyres would stand it. Their reliability record was pretty much dead even, gearbox included. Also, Lewis had a better reliability record than Kovalainen.

IIRC, Hamilton had ONE technical failure resulting in DNF in his first three years at McLaren, and that was the last race of 2009. And the cars were driven harder in 2007-08 certainly, than they are now. Doesn't quite add up, unless you are suggesting Button is not only smoother with equipment than Hamilton, but Alonso and Kovalainen (in Heikki's case, it would appear to be to a ridiculous degree) too.

Edited by inca_roads, 10 December 2012 - 15:21.


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#180 Obi Offiah

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 15:31

IIRC, Hamilton had ONE technical failure resulting in DNF in his first three years at McLaren, and that was the last race of 2009. And the cars were driven harder in 2007-08 certainly, than they are now. Doesn't quite add up, unless you are suggesting Button is not only smoother with equipment than Hamilton, but Alonso and Kovalainen (in Heikki's case, it would appear to be to a ridiculous degree) too.

:up:

#181 Lazy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 15:38

Doesn't quite add up, unless you are suggesting Button is not only smoother with equipment than Hamilton, but Alonso and Kovalainen (in Heikki's case, it would appear to be to a ridiculous degree) too.


I think Button is easier on his equipment than practically everybody on the grid, I suspect the paddock would agree, he's well known for it.

#182 Lazy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 15:39

I have said in the past that JB is very quick, however I think CH (Christian Horner (I haven't seen or heard these statements)?) would be unwise to discount McLaren and JB will be the lead driver for McLaren, Perez is an unknown.


No, he said Jenson.

#183 Lazy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 15:45

I have serious doubts about whether such an ability can exist in a drivers skill set. There are reasons why some drivers may be more mechanically sympathetic that others, but 'having the right rpm for the situation' isn't one of them in my book. Drivers are supposed to drive to the limits of the equipment they have been provided and some drivers are able to place their cars closer to this limit than others by virtue of their talent. Their are occasion when drivers have been cruising and their equipment still fails.


Of course it is, you always use revs that give you the right torque for the situation, you must have heard drivers pick a gear for a corner and then hold the revs at the same level through the corner for example. It's one of the fundamental skill sets for a race driver.

#184 trogggy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 16:01

Join the club.

Which part don't you understand? I'm happy to explain why the last 6 races of a season (or any other snapshot) doesn't 'prove' one driver's superiority if you like - I didn't think it would be necessary, but hey-ho.

#185 Obi Offiah

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 16:24

No, he said Jenson.

McLaren have been tipped to be strong by most in 2013 and Perez is unproven in such an environment, that leaves Jenson.

#186 Obi Offiah

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 16:28

Of course it is, you always use revs that give you the right torque for the situation, you must have heard drivers pick a gear for a corner and then hold the revs at the same level through the corner for example. It's one of the fundamental skill sets for a race driver.

But a driver doing so isn't specifically picking e.g 14225 rpm because that offers the best trade-off between speed and reliability, they are trying to be as fast as possible. As I mention earlier cars have broke down with drivers cruising in them.

#187 Rocket73

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 16:52

But a driver doing so isn't specifically picking e.g 14225 rpm because that offers the best trade-off between speed and reliability, they are trying to be as fast as possible. As I mention earlier cars have broke down with drivers cruising in them.


no that's the whole point! lewis tries to go as fast as possible...jb plays a more cautious approach...tortoise and the hare..

#188 Lazy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 16:55

Doh, what indicates is the faster driver will stress the machine more than the slower one, for ex: you can't go faster with less RPMs, on the throttle later, and so on....



It's not a matter of having the highest rpm or being on the throttle earliest, it's a matter of having the right rpm for the situation, of having the right amount of throttle at the right time.

Any idiot can jump on the throttle early and rev the **** out of the engine, it won't necessarily result in the fastest lap times though.



But a driver doing so isn't specifically picking e.g 14225 rpm because that offers the best trade-off between speed and reliability, they are trying to be as fast as possible. As I mention earlier cars have broke down with drivers cruising in them.


Well I think they do that all the time, there is probably a button for max revs on the steering wheel and you often hear them talk about short shifting etc.

But my post was disputing the assertion that more revs and earlier on the throttle equals faster.



#189 Obi Offiah

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 17:02

no that's the whole point! lewis tries to go as fast as possible...jb plays a more cautious approach...tortoise and the hare..

I don't buy that because it assumes that whenever JB is slower (race conditions) the situation is one of him taking it easy. JB may take things easier at certain points, e.g the early stages of a stint to assist in preserving the tyres and speed up later, but the speed will still be there if he has it. Again cars break down with drivers cruising.

#190 Lazy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 17:04

McLaren have been tipped to be strong by most in 2013 and Perez is unproven in such an environment, that leaves Jenson.


Oh I see what you mean, sorry I misread the original post.

#191 Obi Offiah

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 17:08

Well I think they do that all the time, there is probably a button for max revs on the steering wheel and you often hear them talk about short shifting etc.

But my post was disputing the assertion that more revs and earlier on the throttle equals faster.

Under specific conditions such as fuel saving/cruising. If a driver is fighting for position and fuel isn't an issue and the team aren't worried about any aspect of the car mechanically, the driver will not be short shifting unless not doing so is detrimental to lap time/tyre life e.g too much wheel spin. Max revs is a separate issue that teams will make available to drivers should they need it and the engine is within margin.

#192 robefc

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 17:18

no that's the whole point! lewis tries to go as fast as possible...jb plays a more cautious approach...tortoise and the hare..


Jenson might deliberately drive slower than he is capable of at times in order to conserve tyres but I don't think he's ever given up laptime to make sure his gearbox doesn't give out.

It would be obtuse not to conceded that the driver has some impact on the reliability but, and I can't remember if anyone has ever come up with a plausbile explanation for this, lewis's stellar relaibility record in his first 3 years makes it difficult to point to him as a 'car breaker'.

Edited by robefc, 10 December 2012 - 17:19.


#193 Obi Offiah

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 17:21

Jenson might deliberately drive slower than he is capable of at times in order to conserve tyres but I don't think he's ever given up laptime to make sure his gearbox doesn't give out.

It would be obtuse not to conceded that the driver has some impact on the reliability but, and I can't remember if anyone has ever come up with a plausbile explanation for this, lewis's stellar relaibility record in his first 3 years makes it difficult to point to him as a 'car breaker'.

:up: :up: :up:

#194 Lazy

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 17:23

Under specific conditions such as fuel saving/cruising. If a driver is fighting for position and fuel isn't an issue and the team aren't worried about any aspect of the car mechanically, the driver will not be short shifting unless not doing so is detrimental to lap time/tyre life e.g too much wheel spin. Max revs is a separate issue that teams will make available to drivers should they need it and the engine is within margin.


I'm not really disagreeing with you on that point, sure, in that situation you will be at max, but that's only one aspect of the race.

The team are always worried mechanically.

#195 lewymp4

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 17:35

no that's the whole point! lewis tries to go as fast as possible...jb plays a more cautious approach...tortoise and the hare..

Being a tortise may bring about the odd race win, but hardly a WDC!





#196 tkulla

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 19:15

Curb use is one area where drivers differ that has an impact on mechanical failures. How much is hard to know though.

#197 Peter Perfect

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 20:09

This brings to mind the story about Takuma Sato. Apparently when he was at BAR the team had to make alterations to the rev limiter as he was slowly damaging his gearbox by hitting the limit every time he changed down. The point being that, as a one off gear change, hitting the limiter isn't a problem. What is a problem is doing it repeatedly for the whole race. So while I'd say it is possible to damage a car, its more a case of repeatedly abusing the car in a particular way e.g. aggressively hitting the rev limiter, hitting prominent kerbs, etc...all IMHO of course.

#198 kpchelsea

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 20:22

This clearly shows a superficial understanding of the process.

It's not a matter of having the highest rpm or being on the throttle earliest, it's a matter of having the right rpm for the situation, of having the right amount of throttle at the right time.

Any idiot can jump on the throttle early and rev the **** out of the engine, it won't necessarily result in the fastest lap times though.

So please tell me how Hamilton is able to go that bit faster when he's the one driving more like a hooligan which lends itself to more mechanical retirements?

#199 kpchelsea

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 20:36

But it confirms that (1) the driver has influence (2) there is operating beyond what the engine can take.
Not to mention, the "limit" isn't an exact science or cars would never fail...



Not at all. My view is that drivers can and do have an effect on the reliability of the car and therefore the more retirements a driver has, it stands to reason he's may have had an effect on that but how often and on which occasions haven't been disclosed to me or you so all we can do is speculate. There is definitely nothing concrete we can pin on Hamilton and its possible that even with the greater statistics its possible he wasn't influential. So would the other side admit that equally it is possible? That is all. You won't here me stating "defiantly" just that the possibilities exist.



no that's the whole point! lewis tries to go as fast as possible...jb plays a more cautious approach...tortoise and the hare..



Curb use is one area where drivers differ that has an impact on mechanical failures. How much is hard to know though.



This brings to mind the story about Takuma Sato. Apparently when he was at BAR the team had to make alterations to the rev limiter as he was slowly damaging his gearbox by hitting the limit every time he changed down. The point being that, as a one off gear change, hitting the limiter isn't a problem. What is a problem is doing it repeatedly for the whole race. So while I'd say it is possible to damage a car, its more a case of repeatedly abusing the car in a particular way e.g. aggressively hitting the rev limiter, hitting prominent kerbs, etc...all IMHO of course.

Has as been pointed out earlier Hamilton was driving far harder in 2007, 2008 and 2009 and wasn't having reliability problems, this is just all supposition to meet an agenda

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#200 Obi Offiah

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 21:18

This brings to mind the story about Takuma Sato. Apparently when he was at BAR the team had to make alterations to the rev limiter as he was slowly damaging his gearbox by hitting the limit every time he changed down. The point being that, as a one off gear change, hitting the limiter isn't a problem. What is a problem is doing it repeatedly for the whole race. So while I'd say it is possible to damage a car, its more a case of repeatedly abusing the car in a particular way e.g. aggressively hitting the rev limiter, hitting prominent kerbs, etc...all IMHO of course.

I agree with this.