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Jenson v's Lewis - a retrospective view of their time as team mates


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#201 ermo

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 22:26

Jenson might deliberately drive slower than he is capable of at times in order to conserve tyres but I don't think he's ever given up laptime to make sure his gearbox doesn't give out.

It would be obtuse not to conceded that the driver has some impact on the reliability but, and I can't remember if anyone has ever come up with a plausbile explanation for this, lewis's stellar relaibility record in his first 3 years makes it difficult to point to him as a 'car breaker'.


In the races where he's been leading towards the end or when he has conceded that he was unlikely to gain positions, he's often turned down the revs and cruised to the finish line.

Has as been pointed out earlier Hamilton was driving far harder in 2007, 2008 and 2009 and wasn't having reliability problems, this is just all supposition to meet an agenda


The regulations weren't as severe regarding gearbox and engine life in 07 and 08, so that may also have been a factor as you could simply change damaged or overstressed components earlier/more often. That still leaves '09 of course.

In any case, as several others have stated, it is hard to know to which extent the driver influences component life. But I think it is fairly obvious that the driver contribution is strictly more than 0 percent -- but whether it is 0.01, 0.1, 1 or even 10% ? I simply don't know.

Do I think Lewis has contributed more to his car failures than Jenson in their 3 years together? I'd be inclined to say more likely than not. But that is indeed only speculation based on the perception that Jenson generally strikes me as smoother and more careful/cautious/tidy in his approach to racing.

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#202 robefc

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 22:40

In the races where he's been leading towards the end or when he has conceded that he was unlikely to gain positions, he's often turned down the revs and cruised to the finish line.



The regulations weren't as severe regarding gearbox and engine life in 07 and 08, so that may also have been a factor as you could simply change damaged or overstressed components earlier/more often. That still leaves '09 of course.

In any case, as several others have stated, it is hard to know to which extent the driver influences component life. But I think it is fairly obvious that the driver contribution is strictly more than 0 percent -- but whether it is 0.01, 0.1, 1 or even 10% ? I simply don't know.

Do I think Lewis has contributed more to his car failures than Jenson in their 3 years together? I'd be inclined to say more likely than not. But that is indeed only speculation based on the perception that Jenson generally strikes me as smoother and more careful/cautious/tidy in his approach to racing.


Everybody does that

Incidentally, in terms of DNFs has lewis had anymore than lewis due to unreliability? I think it was 13-8 LH to JB non finishes (JA's site) and I imagine Lewis has at least 5 more DNFs due to incidents that JB.

Doesn't take into account Barcelona or Japan 2010 or Japan and Korea this year mind.

#203 Rinehart

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 22:40

Has as been pointed out earlier Hamilton was driving far harder in 2007, 2008 and 2009 and wasn't having reliability problems, this is just all supposition to meet an agenda


Was he driving harder in those years?
I'd argue he's driving harder in more recent years.
We're all guilty of posturing from angles!

#204 robefc

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 22:41

Was he driving harder in those years?
I'd argue he's driving harder in more recent years.
We're all guilty of posturing from angles!


Ahem, I believe Lewis always drives H.A.M :p

#205 Rocket73

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 23:01

Jenson might deliberately drive slower than he is capable of at times in order to conserve tyres but I don't think he's ever given up laptime to make sure his gearbox doesn't give out.

It would be obtuse not to conceded that the driver has some impact on the reliability but, and I can't remember if anyone has ever come up with a plausbile explanation for this, lewis's stellar relaibility record in his first 3 years makes it difficult to point to him as a 'car breaker'.


Ok allow me to add that his style lends itself to be easy on the car as well as a cautious approach to avoid crashes and stuff like heavy kerb abuse..

what you quoted is supposed to be generalistic - honest

#206 Lazy

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:14

Jenson might deliberately drive slower than he is capable of at times in order to conserve tyres but I don't think he's ever given up laptime to make sure his gearbox doesn't give out.

It would be obtuse not to conceded that the driver has some impact on the reliability but, and I can't remember if anyone has ever come up with a plausbile explanation for this, lewis's stellar relaibility record in his first 3 years makes it difficult to point to him as a 'car breaker'.


I seem to remember that the FIA reduced the engine and gearbox allocations at some point which may have had an effect.

Red Bull have upped the game a bit as well, I think, forcing teams to push the envelope that bit more. Also they are close to maximising the current set of regulations which may also be pushing the teams to use finer tolerances.

Maybe Lewis used all his good luck in those years and it caught up with him this year?;)

Edit: I would stress that in no way would I class Lewis as a car breaker, just that he's probably that little bit harder on his equipment than JB, but that would be true of most drivers on the grid.

Edited by Lazy, 11 December 2012 - 07:30.


#207 Obi Offiah

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:14

I seem to remember that the FIA reduced the engine and gearbox allocations at some point which may have had an effect.

Red Bull have upped the game a bit as well, I think, forcing teams to push the envelope that bit more. Also they are close to maximising the current set of regulations which may also be pushing the teams to use finer tolerances.

In the sprint era gearboxes were designed to last a race and that was the limit the designers and engineers had to work to. Now gearboxes have to last four races and the designers and engineers have to adjust their limits accordingly.

Teams are always pushing to the limit, there is nothing new in that. I don't believe RBR's success changes that.

#208 oligc94

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:16

Was he driving harder in those years?
I'd argue he's driving harder in more recent years.
We're all guilty of posturing from angles!


Really? You only have to look back at some videos of him in 07/08 to see how hard he was whacking kerbs and overtseering all over the place! I think he has really toned down his style now.

#209 akshay380

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:16

http://www.dailymail...ial-outing.html

Quotes from Jenson,

‘I can really build that team around me and direct the team in a direction I like with the car.

‘We all drive differently and have different styles. For me, I need a car I can develop beneath me and feel comfortable in. If the car feels neutral and unbalanced it doesn't work for me.

‘I need to develop a car and engineer a car in a position that feels comfortable for me, and I don't think anyone can do a better job than I can in that position. The problem for me is if I can't get the car there I do struggle more than some.'


So in reality 2012 car was designed to Lewis's preferences though Jenson said it was designed for his?

#210 Juggles

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:17

http://www.dailymail...ial-outing.html

Quotes from Jenson,

So in reality 2012 car was designed to Lewis's preferences though Jenson said it was designed for his?


Sounds more like the car was designed with both of them in mind to be as fast as it could be, as you'd expect. Hamilton was able to get more out of it than Button because the combined car and tyre requirements of 2012 played more into Hamilton's hands than Button's (the opposite of last year when the tyres were predictable but went off faster than a drunk on a bicycle).

Also, I don't agree with Button that no one "can do a better job" than he can with a car that perfectly suits him. Hamilton in his perfect F1 car is still a faster racing driver than Button in his perfect F1 car. He just happens to be more adaptable on top of that.

EDIT - I should have been slightly clearer in my first paragraph. When I said "Hamilton was able to get more out of it than Button because [of] the requirements of 2012" I should stress that isn't the only reason. Hamilton was also far more consistent this year than he was last. Despite last season suiting Button's style more than Hamilton the latter's qualifying advantage remained and, had he been as error free as this season, would still have finished ahead. This season, with a flawless Hamilton driving a car and tyre package which rewarded adaptability and (in qualifying) aggression rather than patience (that's the best word I can think of to describe the requirements of 2011), it wasn't much of a surprise to see how outclassed Button was compared to last year.

Edited by Juggles, 12 December 2012 - 07:31.


#211 tifosiMac

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:55

I keep seeing the claim a car was designed for a specific driver and in reality its total rubbish.
Teams design a car to go as fast as possible and then work on adapting the car to suit a specific driver. They both get an equal chance to adapt their styles or give feedback to change setup to their own preferences. Designers don't sit down and design elements of a car specifically to suit a certain driver at all.

#212 Rinehart

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:37

I keep seeing the claim a car was designed for a specific driver and in reality its total rubbish.
Teams design a car to go as fast as possible and then work on adapting the car to suit a specific driver. They both get an equal chance to adapt their styles or give feedback to change setup to their own preferences. Designers don't sit down and design elements of a car specifically to suit a certain driver at all.


Agree in principle, but there are a couple of caveats. Although the car is predominantly designed to be as quick as possible with a generic driver in it, they do of course consider the drivers in terms of their handling preferences and will try to build those characteristics into the car or, moreso inherent flexibility to get there through set up.

But overall, they are quite neutral, its just the luck of the draw as to which driver the car suits more as a baseline. I think it was pretty even in Australia 2012 spec, I think the problem was the set up direction the car went in as they began to understand the tyres, took it away from Jenson for a while.

#213 tifosiMac

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:10

But overall, they are quite neutral, its just the luck of the draw as to which driver the car suits more as a baseline. I think it was pretty even in Australia 2012 spec, I think the problem was the set up direction the car went in as they began to understand the tyres, took it away from Jenson for a while.

I don't think that has anything to do with them following the preferences of Lewis though. Of course its luck of the draw with set up and Hamilton's side of the garage found the balance easier than Jenson's for most of this season. Each driver provides feedback to their group of engineers and its their job as a team to find the balance that suits the driver best. If a driver struggles once they started trying to understand the tyres then its the job of the driver to adapt his style to suit the conditions and the engineers to follow his preferences. I know thats easier said than done, but these guys are expected to do this and its what makes them the best drivers in the world. Jenson paid credit to Lewis for being very adaptable in his approach and I think this season every driver has been expected to do this. If Pirelli deliver the tyres Jenson is expecting next season I think we'll see him in a stronger position as this season (mostly) he has been way off Lewis and more so than the points suggest IMO.

#214 as65p

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:07

I keep seeing the claim a car was designed for a specific driver and in reality its total rubbish.
Teams design a car to go as fast as possible and then work on adapting the car to suit a specific driver. They both get an equal chance to adapt their styles or give feedback to change setup to their own preferences. Designers don't sit down and design elements of a car specifically to suit a certain driver at all.


Is it rubbish too when Hamilton says it?

Hamilton did however stress he would need half a year to begin having an impact on the teams' development, making 2014 his primary focus.

"I don't get in the car until February so I won't be able to have a big enough impact until at least six months down the line," he explained.


#215 slmk

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:13

Is it rubbish too when Hamilton says it?

Hamilton did however stress he would need half a year to begin having an impact on the teams' development, making 2014 his primary focus.

"I don't get in the car until February so I won't be able to have a big enough impact until at least six months down the line," he explained.


Where did Lewis specifically said that?

Giving feedback on a car isn't the same as tailoring the car to your driving style.

#216 as65p

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:22

Where did Lewis specifically said that?


In the article I linked.

Giving feedback on a car isn't the same as tailoring the car to your driving style.


He's saying that from the moment he steps in the car it will take 6 months until his 'impact' will be felt on the car. From a drivers perspective, there is no other way of feedback than to tailor the car to ones needs. He will report back what he feel is wrong with it and (maybe) how he thinks they should improve it. Drivers don't operate on a theoretical level of what's fast on paper, like engineers.

Hamilton is talking about the exact same thing as Button, i.e. how he, the driver, will try to get the car to his liking as best as possible.

#217 tifosiMac

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:51

Is it rubbish too when Hamilton says it?

Hamilton did however stress he would need half a year to begin having an impact on the teams' development, making 2014 his primary focus.

"I don't get in the car until February so I won't be able to have a big enough impact until at least six months down the line," he explained.

It is rubbish yes. By February the car has been designed anyway and its only driver preferences that can be taken into account. Teams can set the car up to how they think the drivers will like them but its down to the drivers to give the necessary feedback. Adrian Newey did a really good interview a while back where he said he doesn't design any of his cars with any particular driver in mind. Its down to the driver to adapt and the team to make the necessary changes as designing a car perfectly for one driver is a total nightmare.

#218 Rinehart

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:01

I don't think that has anything to do with them following the preferences of Lewis though.


I never said it was. I said it was the consequence of following understanding of the tyres. Lewis was able to drive the car as it evolved in a direction that extracted performance from the tyre - his adaptability is shown here. Or is it. Perhaps luckily the set up to work the tyres played into Lewis hands as opposed to Lewis adapting? Anyhow I think the team were concentrating on the tyres across both cars as opposed to either driver. For Jenson, it went away from him so they had to find new way for him to be happy after they had understood the tyres. Lewis is totally blameless. Equally, to say "it was Jensons problem to solve" is harsh, it was Jenson and the teams. They got there in the end and I think this recovery is under-rated. Just look at Kimi in 2008. He had a balance problem and didn't solve it all season.

#219 tifosiMac

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:13

I never said it was. I said it was the consequence of following understanding of the tyres. Lewis was able to drive the car as it evolved in a direction that extracted performance from the tyre - his adaptability is shown here. Or is it. Perhaps luckily the set up to work the tyres played into Lewis hands as opposed to Lewis adapting? Anyhow I think the team were concentrating on the tyres across both cars as opposed to either driver. For Jenson, it went away from him so they had to find new way for him to be happy after they had understood the tyres. Lewis is totally blameless.

I agree with what you are saying and yes Jenson should receive credit for his recovery. He still wasn't quite on the pace of his team mate but was in a better position to capitalise at the end of the season after the issues had been understood..

Equally, to say "it was Jensons problem to solve" is harsh, it was Jenson and the teams.

I didn't say that though. I said Jenson and 'his side of the garage' meaning the team too.

Just look at Kimi in 2008. He had a balance problem and didn't solve it all season.

They did solve it towards the end of the season and after Kimi's management and lawyers got involved. The floor was changed/upgraded on the Ferrari and it didn't suit Kimi. Ferrari were stubborn on this and this issue was resolved a few races from the end of that season. This is an example of where an update suits one driver and not the other. That time it was Massa who benefited but again this was luck of the draw.

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#220 Clatter

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:20

They did solve it towards the end of the season and after Kimi's management and lawyers got involved. The floor was changed/upgraded on the Ferrari and it didn't suit Kimi. Ferrari were stubborn on this and this issue was resolved a few races from the end of that season. This is an example of where an update suits one driver and not the other. That time it was Massa who benefited but again this was luck of the draw.


Are you saying that KR called the lawyers in to force Ferrari to change the car?

#221 tifosiMac

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:25

Are you saying that KR called the lawyers in to force Ferrari to change the car?

It was suggested at the time that he took advice and management and lawyers got involved with discussions into changing the car back to its original floor after a 5 race bad spell.

#222 Buttoneer

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:29

I seem to remember that the FIA reduced the engine and gearbox allocations at some point which may have had an effect.

Red Bull have upped the game a bit as well, I think, forcing teams to push the envelope that bit more. Also they are close to maximising the current set of regulations which may also be pushing the teams to use finer tolerances.

Maybe Lewis used all his good luck in those years and it caught up with him this year?;)

Edit: I would stress that in no way would I class Lewis as a car breaker, just that he's probably that little bit harder on his equipment than JB, but that would be true of most drivers on the grid.

Is this what people really mean when they say a driver 'out drove the car'?

One point on this is if you can say that a driving style affects the car detrimentally whether one can say exactly how or in what way a car is affected.

There was a quote/article/statement/whatever from one of the McEngineers who said that Lewis has a more direct turn-in which means he puts a lot of stress on the tyres and suspension system for a brief period of time, while Jenson's style put a lower but more sustained stress on the system. What hurts the car more or is easier to counter?

I wouldn't give Jenson a clean bill of health on this without understanding all the dynamics because I can see there is potential for damage.

#223 Clatter

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:29

It was suggested at the time that he took advice and management and lawyers got involved with discussions into changing the car back to its original floor after a 5 race bad spell.


OK. Hadn't heard that one about the lawyers being involved.


#224 ayali

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:33

It was suggested at the time that he took advice and management and lawyers got involved with discussions into changing the car back to its original floor after a 5 race bad spell.

Lawyers involved to force Ferrari to change the car back??
Me thinks not
any links?

#225 tifosiMac

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:43

OK. Hadn't heard that one about the lawyers being involved.

James Allen did a piece on it at the time I think it was? I don't think it got serious but Kimi's management had to act on his behalf after Ferrari refused to revert. Things were not all rosy for Kimi during 2009 and he'd obviously fallen out of love with the Maranello squad, or that's the impression we got at least. I don't have any links I'm afraid as I don't have time to really look today. I'm in and out of here depending on work :)

#226 WitnessX

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 14:23

I don't think that has anything to do with them following the preferences of Lewis though. Of course its luck of the draw with set up and Hamilton's side of the garage found the balance easier than Jenson's for most of this season. Each driver provides feedback to their group of engineers and its their job as a team to find the balance that suits the driver best. If a driver struggles once they started trying to understand the tyres then its the job of the driver to adapt his style to suit the conditions and the engineers to follow his preferences. I know thats easier said than done, but these guys are expected to do this and its what makes them the best drivers in the world. Jenson paid credit to Lewis for being very adaptable in his approach and I think this season every driver has been expected to do this. If Pirelli deliver the tyres Jenson is expecting next season I think we'll see him in a stronger position as this season (mostly) he has been way off Lewis and more so than the points suggest IMO.

To cut a long story short, there were 3 races where they (in hindsight) got the tyre/brake cooling wrong. (spain/monaco/canada). It was only after Canada and a pow-wow with the engineers back at base did they figure out that this was the root cause.

It was not just a simple case of "not finding a balance". The problem was the balance was changing dynamically as the grip levels between front and rear changed over different fuel loads, speeds and environmental conditions. In Canada the rear wheels were shredding.

For those 3 races I cannot see how he could adapted because they just did not know what what the cause was. The following 2 races (Valencia, Silverstone) his race pace was back, but were masked by his bad starting positions (which are another story).

What happened was that he had to change his normal brake material (Brembo) to a higher temperature material (Carbon Industries). The problem was the cooling or lack of it. I presume because the engineers at McLaren had opted to standardise on these as the preferred choice for there tyre temperature management. There is a difference in how the drivers use there brakes (and tyres).

It did not effect Lewis because "Carbon Industries" are his standard brake material anyway.

AFAIK he used the CI brakes for the second half of the season so he has had to make a compromise and adapt.

#227 Lazy

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 14:36

Is this what people really mean when they say a driver 'out drove the car'?

One point on this is if you can say that a driving style affects the car detrimentally whether one can say exactly how or in what way a car is affected.

There was a quote/article/statement/whatever from one of the McEngineers who said that Lewis has a more direct turn-in which means he puts a lot of stress on the tyres and suspension system for a brief period of time, while Jenson's style put a lower but more sustained stress on the system. What hurts the car more or is easier to counter?

I wouldn't give Jenson a clean bill of health on this without understanding all the dynamics because I can see there is potential for damage.


All true and the whole effect is very hard to pin down.

Normally you would say that short sharp shocks are what cause the damage but sustained stress may cause more damage to bearings etc.

Also if the car is moving around more it can cause stress in a sub-optimal direction for a specific part. Carbon fibre can take tension all day long but is brittle under compression. I would think that the prolonged smooth stress would be more likely to be stress the part in the way that it is optimally designed for.

I think if you want to break something you hit with a hammer, engineers try to avoid peaks of stress as a general rule.

#228 Rinehart

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 15:08

The floor was changed/upgraded on the Ferrari and it didn't suit Kimi. Ferrari were stubborn on this and this issue was resolved a few races from the end of that season. This is an example of where an update suits one driver and not the other. That time it was Massa who benefited but again this was luck of the draw.


Which is why, when people rate JB v LH, they should consider how easily things could have been different if (a) Hamilton hadn't suffered such unreliability, or (b) the car had been developed to work the tyres conveniently more suited to JB in 2012. Fine margins, the luck of the draw...

#229 MP422

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 17:31

Which is why, when people rate JB v LH, they should consider how easily things could have been different if (a) Hamilton hadn't suffered such unreliability, or (b) the car had been developed to work the tyres conveniently more suited to JB in 2012. Fine margins, the luck of the draw...



So one has broken equipment and the latter just doesn't like the provided tires ???

#230 sheepgobba

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 17:49

So one has broken equipment and the latter just doesn't like the provided tires ???



Well, which one would you prefer ? :lol:  ;)

#231 Fox1

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 21:34

Just shows the constant attempt to completely ignore a significant deficiency of Jenson's as a racing driver; his inability to adapt. If McLaren revise their front suspension geometry and create a car with a more narrow setup window, you don't know what you'll get from JB. He could be on the front row or fighting with the midpack. That should be troubling for any McLaren supporter.

#232 Peter Perfect

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 21:54

I never said it was. I said it was the consequence of following understanding of the tyres. Lewis was able to drive the car as it evolved in a direction that extracted performance from the tyre - his adaptability is shown here. Or is it. Perhaps luckily the set up to work the tyres played into Lewis hands as opposed to Lewis adapting? Anyhow I think the team were concentrating on the tyres across both cars as opposed to either driver. For Jenson, it went away from him so they had to find new way for him to be happy after they had understood the tyres. Lewis is totally blameless. Equally, to say "it was Jensons problem to solve" is harsh, it was Jenson and the teams. They got there in the end and I think this recovery is under-rated. Just look at Kimi in 2008. He had a balance problem and didn't solve it all season.

After a year of Hamilton-can-adapt-Button-can't I must admit in hindsight I'm not sure what Hamilton actually did. Certainly my impression/reading between the lines from Buttons recent quotes is that as far as he's concerned the tyres really played into Hamiltons hands as far as driving style is concerned.

#233 as65p

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:46

Just shows the constant attempt to completely ignore a significant deficiency of Jenson's as a racing driver; his inability to adapt. If McLaren revise their front suspension geometry and create a car with a more narrow setup window, you don't know what you'll get from JB. He could be on the front row or fighting with the midpack. That should be troubling for any McLaren supporter.


OTOH, Hamilton has driven McLarens, following a similar car design philosophy, all his F1 live. Now he's onto 'something completely different' at MGP.

I say lets sit back and watch the first half of 2014. It will be a great test of Hamiltons famed adaptability.

#234 senna da silva

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:36

OTOH, Hamilton has driven McLarens, following a similar car design philosophy, all his F1 live. Now he's onto 'something completely different' at MGP.

I say lets sit back and watch the first half of 2014. It will be a great test of Hamiltons famed adaptability.


Lewis will prove he's just as adaptable as Senna. Maybe even more so, Ayrton struggled in the Williams.  ;)

#235 Rocket73

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:04

OTOH, Hamilton has driven McLarens, following a similar car design philosophy, all his F1 live. Now he's onto 'something completely different' at MGP.

I say lets sit back and watch the first half of 2014. It will be a great test of Hamiltons famed adaptability.


it will be the CAR or the TEAM to blame if he fails...

or Rosberg's voodoo doll

#236 Rinehart

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:00

Just shows the constant attempt to completely ignore a significant deficiency of Jenson's as a racing driver; his inability to adapt. If McLaren revise their front suspension geometry and create a car with a more narrow setup window, you don't know what you'll get from JB. He could be on the front row or fighting with the midpack. That should be troubling for any McLaren supporter.


You need to read the trail of conversation back further than my retort.

Your response doesn't make sense in the context of the strand of conversation, because the discussion was WHAT IF the Pirellis had required a set up direction that suited Jenson. It could have been Hamilton at sea. Just saying "its all because Jenson isn't adaptable, nothing else" is a real fingers in the ears moment to the possibility, quite frankly. Drivers like Kimi in the first half of 08, Vettel in the first half of 12, for example, have shown that sometimes a car doesn't work for them and it has to be developed. I don't remember Kimi or Vettel changing their styles to adapt. Given that Hamilton beat JB this year, I don't see why its such a concession to admit that it could have been different, had the front tyres operated better, cooler. Given Hamilton puts a lot of load into the front tyres especially late braking entry, would he have changed his style or would McLaren have spent several races working out how to extract pace they way he does, whilst keeping the fronts cooler? Just think about it. None of the teams really understood these tyres at the beginnng of the season. There will probably never be another season like it where the tyre performance is such a dark art. JB and a few others were a casualty of that phenomenon. It could have been Hamilton. It depended on the tyres Pirelli produced. To dismiss all this and say Jenson is not adaptable therefore he is nowhere near as good - is to hide behind essentially a massive stroke of misfortune for Button.

#237 as65p

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:41

Lewis will prove he's just as adaptable as Senna. Maybe even more so, Ayrton struggled in the Williams. ;)


So you expect Hamilton to lap Rosberg in the first race?  ;)

#238 Clatter

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:48

Lewis will prove he's just as adaptable as Senna. Maybe even more so, Ayrton struggled in the Williams. ;)


He did?

#239 Obi Offiah

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:54

Lewis will prove he's just as adaptable as Senna. Maybe even more so, Ayrton struggled in the Williams. ;)

My understanding is that the early FW-16 had handling problems due to issues such as pitch sensitivity, that's why the side-pods were brought back with the 16B. This reduced overall down-force, but made the car more predictable.

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#240 F1ultimate

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:28

"I think he'll (Rosberg) probably get a bit of a surprise at his speed," Button said of his German rival. "I know he's been his team-mate in the past but I think he'll be surprised at how Lewis can get performance out of a bad car. I think that will be the biggest thing."


Quite a flattering comment by Button

Source: http://www.gpupdate....rprise-rosberg/

#241 jjcale

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:29

Button: Hamiltons speed will surprise rosberg.


:lol: at JB the politician .... check out this press release from him. The last line is a cracker!

#242 ayali

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:35

:lol: at JB the politician .... check out this press release from him. The last line is a cracker!

Indeed lol :up:
Now that is how it should be done
Hamilton cs. should take note
:lol:

#243 Clatter

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 13:04

:lol: at JB the politician .... check out this press release from him. The last line is a cracker!


Press release? Isn't it just an interview? And what's wrong with the last line? That's not a quote from JB.

#244 jrg19

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 14:40

Just a thought about what would have happened if the tyres could be pushed for the whole race at every race this season, considering it was 17-3 in qualifying that would have translated into the races in theory... what would JB fans excuse be then?

Surely these tyres which "don't suit" Jenson are a blessing?

#245 TurboF1

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 15:09

Just a thought about what would have happened if the tyres could be pushed for the whole race at every race this season, considering it was 17-3 in qualifying that would have translated into the races in theory... what would JB fans excuse be then?

Surely these tyres which "don't suit" Jenson are a blessing?



I have never seen a driver saved from such an utter embarrassment before. Jensons performance as a whole this year has been lacklustre overall considering the machinery at his disposal, while his teammate was on course for top results but was consistently denied due to factors beyond the driver. A 17-3 qualifying showing is an absolute beating, especially when considered that Button scored 1 pole position, while Hamilton put the car on pole position 8 (!!!) times though was disqualified from 1 through no fault of his own. The depths of McLarens failure this year cannot be overstated, to have such an inherently quick car in the 27, and such a driver as Lewis to maximize it's results but coming away from the year with absolutely nothing to show for it except 3rd in the WCC is shocking.

#246 robefc

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 15:20

I was quite surprised to see JB so high up on the Team Principal's top ten and Mark Hughes's version.

Thoughts of JB fans?

#247 TurboF1

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 15:32

I was quite surprised to see JB so high up on the Team Principal's top ten and Mark Hughes's version.

Thoughts of JB fans?



Skewed by Brazil mate. You're only as good as your last race remember? :p It's easier to forget all the races where he was dead slow and nowhere to be found because he had a good race in brazil.

#248 paulrobs

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 15:43

For me it's just a tantalising prospect to see how Jenson fares at McLaren and Lewis fares at Mercedes next year. Can't wait.

#249 Lazy

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 16:20

I was quite surprised to see JB so high up on the Team Principal's top ten and Mark Hughes's version.

Thoughts of JB fans?


Probably because they have a much clearer picture of what happened this year and why.

#250 Burtros

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 16:29

I was quite surprised to see JB so high up on the Team Principal's top ten and Mark Hughes's version.

Thoughts of JB fans?


Not really....

He might have had a bad year, but its easy for non-Button fans to forget he won 3 races all on his own merit which is only less than Hamilton and Vettel.

Non Button fans apply to much focus to a small 4 race window this year where he struggled. It defines the year for them to much hence they under-rate him - everything else pails into insignificance, despite the fact he recovered well and won 2 more races.

It wasnt Jensons strongest year, but then last year he must have been 2nd? The drop in the ratings probably reflects the drop in his performace adequatley.

Edited by Burtros, 13 December 2012 - 16:30.