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Jenson v's Lewis - a retrospective view of their time as team mates


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#401 Darth Sidious

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 12:33

Jb comments on the front page seem a bit off to me.

Macca had one of the fastest cars they have had for years this season yet JB thinks outright pace cost them the championships not reliability and operational mistakes.

Whats that about?


I think he's speaking for himself, rather than the team.
For him the pace of the car wasn't there for much of the season, and cost him a lot of points, so from that perspective he would be correct.
For the other driver, however, the pace of the car did seem to be there for much of the season, but operationally and reliability wise McLaren fumbled it big time and that cost the other driver just as many points.

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#402 Alx09

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 16:01

Button: Pace cost titles not glitches


Is he speaking about his pace? If not :rotfl:

#403 peroa

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 17:04

Jb comments on the front page seem a bit off to me.

Macca had one of the fastest cars they have had for years this season yet JB thinks outright pace cost them the championships not reliability and operational mistakes.

Whats that about?

It's just he and his press buddies rewriting his 2012 achievements, or rather lack of.
Since the end of the season we got a new bit on JB every few days, "explaining" how the car was sh**.

#404 DaddyCool

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 18:09

I'm indifferent to McLaren drivers, but that article is one of the biggest BS I've read this year.

#405 dhill39

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 19:18

I was waiting for someone to bring that article up,what bs from Jenson.Every team goes through a slump,Red Bull early in the season, Mclaren in the middle,only difference,one team had no problems when it counted, and the other team did.I wish jornos would call him out for that bs.

#406 Rybo

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 20:30

Whatever. Jenson drove brilliantly after a dreadful start to the race. You race the conditions and the situation presented to you.


I am not diminishing his drive. It was a great drive in changing conditions and he was best that day. But when two of your competitors dnf on racing incidents. It does kinda take the shine off.

#407 Dalton007

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 21:24

I am not diminishing his drive. It was a great drive in changing conditions and he was best that day. But when two of your competitors dnf on racing incidents. It does kinda take the shine off.


But you could say that of any race with any driver. "It was a great drive by Lewis, but Alonso not having a fast car takes the shine off it."

#408 peroa

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 21:52

Two pieces in one day, one could think he is the newly crowned WDC.
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104935

#409 undersquare

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 22:41

But you could say that of any race with any driver. "It was a great drive by Lewis, but Alonso not having a fast car takes the shine off it."

Well Canada 2011 WAS a bit different, in that JB luckily took out two of his biggest rivals, was decisively slower than his teammate, and drove himself down to last place. Then had the SC, got his tyres into the window and drove beautifully. But it was really a race of two halves. And they all look brilliant if theirs are the only tyres that are fully switched on. Not that it doesn't take skill but still, the hype got completely out of hand - 'best drive ever' did Whitmarsh say?

#410 P123

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 22:49

Well Canada 2011 WAS a bit different, in that JB luckily took out two of his biggest rivals, was decisively slower than his teammate, and drove himself down to last place. Then had the SC, got his tyres into the window and drove beautifully. But it was really a race of two halves. And they all look brilliant if theirs are the only tyres that are fully switched on. Not that it doesn't take skill but still, the hype got completely out of hand - 'best drive ever' did Whitmarsh say?


Why not- from dead last to first. I'm not surprised Whitmarsh was ecstatic as it was a brilliant comeback. Of course there is the twist of fate that had Alonso not become beached on the kerb then JB would have had to limp back to the pits under racing speed with his self-inflicted puncture from the contact and therefore no SC to bunch the pack and negate the time loss of limping back and pitting. I bet when JB drops his toast it always lands butter side up.  ;)

#411 karlth

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 23:23

Well Canada 2011 WAS a bit different, in that JB luckily took out two of his biggest rivals, was decisively slower than his teammate, and drove himself down to last place.


:p

There is more than a grain of truth in that "sledgehammer" analysis. The win looked good though!


#412 andrewf1

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 23:30

what's with all this button love-fest on autosport and the rewriting of history? it's quite pathetic.
how can he give off quotes such as 'But the most difficult part for us was before the summer break when we just didn't have the pace', when it was clear as day to everyone that he was the only guy out there actually lacking the pace in a car which was scoring poles, front rows, wins and podiums in his teammate's hands.

if i were an engineer at mclaren i would feel very insulted, because the guys produced a great car, but quotes such as these from button make it look as if they failed to deliver him a good car. quite a nice way to wash your hands.

#413 Seano

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 00:06

Words are cheap.

He can run but there won't be anywhere to hide in 2013 - the driver's contribution to the team will rest on his shoulders alone. As a Brit, I'd be delighted if he can do it - but surprised too.

Seano

#414 Rybo

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 00:10

But you could say that of any race with any driver. "It was a great drive by Lewis, but Alonso not having a fast car takes the shine off it."


Japan 2011? Sure Hamilton was off, but Seb and Fred were on it. There will always be cases when faster cars don't finish Valencia 12 in particular, but that's racing.

I don't know why some posters can't admit that sometimes you need luck. Doesn't mean the drive was less impressive they just had help along the way.

#415 senna da silva

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:56

what's with all this button love-fest on autosport and the rewriting of history? it's quite pathetic.
how can he give off quotes such as 'But the most difficult part for us was before the summer break when we just didn't have the pace', when it was clear as day to everyone that he was the only guy out there actually lacking the pace in a car which was scoring poles, front rows, wins and podiums in his teammate's hands.

if i were an engineer at mclaren i would feel very insulted, because the guys produced a great car, but quotes such as these from button make it look as if they failed to deliver him a good car. quite a nice way to wash your hands.


Autosport clearly have their heads up button's ass. Just ridiculous!

#416 dhill39

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:05

Thats why Lewis couldn't win the fight with button,they are both British,but he always get the better press coverage from the uk press,I so glad that they are not teammates anymore.

#417 teejay

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:11

Yes, I am sure Lewis simply gave up trying when he read Jenson had more press releases.

#418 paulogman

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:06

if f1 was only about driving really really fast I would choose hamilton because he is devastatingly quick
fortunately, f1 is a team sport that requires more than just an individual.

in that case jenson knows it far better than hamilton which is why JB is still in mclaren and hamilton is going to the mercedes team

#419 Ramses1348

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:52

Autosport clearly have their heads up button's ass. Just ridiculous!


indeed this is getting silly

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#420 Alx09

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 10:20

What is most insulting with articles like these is that McLaren, Button and Autosport all treats the readers/fans like retards. Who do they think buy into this kind of bullshit?

Button was shit this season. The car was fast but unreliable. To say that car pace was issue is mind boggling, when looking at what Lewis was able to do with it.

Why on earth try to repair something with lies afterwards? This type of ego/corporate bs makes me mad.

Edited by Alx09, 27 December 2012 - 10:31.


#421 undersquare

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 10:34

if f1 was only about driving really really fast I would choose hamilton because he is devastatingly quick
fortunately, f1 is a team sport that requires more than just an individual.

in that case jenson knows it far better than hamilton which is why JB is still in mclaren and hamilton is going to the mercedes team

Of course it's nothing so simplistic. For just one thing McLaren were clearly upset when they found Lewis had signed elsewhere - it was a mistake to lose him, by taking him for granted.

Other factors include the way the team were like parents to Lewis and hadn't updated their relationship with him whereas Jenson was treated as the reigning wdc. There's the race engineer issue (which I think was huge). The fact that after six years Lewis wanted to try something new. There's the role Merc are offering which is on a par with Alonso and Vettel. The team cockups and car failures.

I daresay the Jenson-love was a factor too, and well done JB. He is very affable. That's evidently important to Whitmarsh's McLaren, and next year we'll see them reap their due results. Though I think Lewis is also very likeable (more so afaic) and for all the rumours spread about on here by his detractors he was pretty popular in the team.

#422 P123

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 10:58

what's with all this button love-fest on autosport and the rewriting of history? it's quite pathetic.
how can he give off quotes such as 'But the most difficult part for us was before the summer break when we just didn't have the pace', when it was clear as day to everyone that he was the only guy out there actually lacking the pace in a car which was scoring poles, front rows, wins and podiums in his teammate's hands.

if i were an engineer at mclaren i would feel very insulted, because the guys produced a great car, but quotes such as these from button make it look as if they failed to deliver him a good car. quite a nice way to wash your hands.


Both McLaren's struggled in Bahrain, and also at Silverstone, so even discounting JB's issues the pace wasn't always there. From JB's perspective he suffered more from lack of pace (add in Monaco, Spain and Canada) than unreliabillity, which was the reverse for Hamilton.

#423 P123

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:05

in that case jenson knows it far better than hamilton which is why JB is still in mclaren and hamilton is going to the mercedes team


Does he, really? He knows it so well that he got hugely lost on setup, leading him to fight with a caterham in Monaco and be lapped in Canada? Both have their strengths and weaknesses. They complimented each other quite well. It could be said that Button was quite fortunate in that Hamilton suffered so many issues whilst running at the front in 2012. We wouldn't be hearing so much about 3 year points totals and such...

#424 PARAZAR

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:17

So now people are taking offence because Autosport posted articles on JB? Ease up guys.

#425 P123

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:42

So now people are taking offence because Autosport posted articles on JB? Ease up guys.


I expect they will be doing the same for other drivers if it's the '2012 in quotes' article people are questioning- in a way it's a sneaky way of getting people to use up their number of free view articles before hitting the pay wall on autosport.com...

#426 Fox1

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:03

Of course it's nothing so simplistic. For just one thing McLaren were clearly upset when they found Lewis had signed elsewhere - it was a mistake to lose him, by taking him for granted.

Other factors include the way the team were like parents to Lewis and hadn't updated their relationship with him whereas Jenson was treated as the reigning wdc. There's the race engineer issue (which I think was huge). The fact that after six years Lewis wanted to try something new. There's the role Merc are offering which is on a par with Alonso and Vettel. The team cockups and car failures.

I daresay the Jenson-love was a factor too, and well done JB. He is very affable. That's evidently important to Whitmarsh's McLaren, and next year we'll see them reap their due results. Though I think Lewis is also very likeable (more so afaic) and for all the rumours spread about on here by his detractors he was pretty popular in the team.

Well said.

#427 Fox1

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:16

So now people are taking offence because Autosport posted articles on JB? Ease up guys.

Not the end of the world, just a matter of calling BS when you see it.

#428 PARAZAR

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:28

Not the end of the world, just a matter of calling BS when you see it.


I think P123 has a valid point there by saying that the season in quotes article is probably sth they're also going to do with other drivers. As far as the calling BS thing is concerned, I'm not sure what you're referring to.

#429 Dalton007

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:34

Well Canada 2011 WAS a bit different, in that JB luckily took out two of his biggest rivals, was decisively slower than his teammate, and drove himself down to last place. Then had the SC, got his tyres into the window and drove beautifully. But it was really a race of two halves. And they all look brilliant if theirs are the only tyres that are fully switched on. Not that it doesn't take skill but still, the hype got completely out of hand - 'best drive ever' did Whitmarsh say?


Jenson only took out Alonso, Lewis hit Jenson. :wave:

#430 Buttoneer

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:43

If you wish to complain about Autosport articles, there is a feedback forum for the purpose. There is also a thread here in which the issue of BBC and general media bias may be discussed.

This thread is to discuss the performance of the two drivers in their three years together at McLaren, not how friendly the drivers are with journalists.

#431 andrewf1

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 13:03

Both McLaren's struggled in Bahrain, and also at Silverstone, so even discounting JB's issues the pace wasn't always there. From JB's perspective he suffered more from lack of pace (add in Monaco, Spain and Canada) than unreliabillity, which was the reverse for Hamilton.


you are right about Bahrain and Silverstone, but come on, those are 2 races - out of how many (and btw, bahrain was made to look worse because of the pit-stop blunders, the car wasn't that slow) or are you implying that in order to win the championship you need to have race winning pace at every single event in a 20 race season? alonso and vettel might argue otherwise.

also, i disagree with the wording 'he suffered from' - just like in the article, that implies it was somehow inflicted upon him, because of the car, while he did everything right.


#432 undersquare

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 13:25

Jenson only took out Alonso, Lewis hit Jenson. :wave:

Lol, they were both somewhat 50-50 / 70-30 IMO but in the case of LH we clearly saw Jense look in his left mirror, then stop looking, then move left. A mistake. Claimed he couldn't see but mysteriously Lewis' onboard could see quite well in the opposite direction! This year he'd have breached the rule about leaving a car's width. In any case he was very lucky to stay out of the wall himself while putting Lewis into it. So it definitely belongs in the 'bad' half of that race and the 'lucky' section too.

JB's Canada 11 might possibly have been among the best HALF-races ever, but calling the whole thing best is classic buttonophilia :D .

#433 ali_M

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 14:04

For this year, Button had issues with his car setup for a while. This has little to do with his potential pace. We have repeatedly seen what Jenson can be like when his car setup is to his liking. We may say that he's very sensitive to setup and this is likely the case though this may be overemphasized. I think it's more that Hamilton may have had the upper hand in setup with the tyres this year.

When they're both doing well, there's little that seems to separate them. I've been seriously surprised by this since Button was so underrated, it would seem and/or Lewis was so overrated, it would seem. As to the Lewis overrating, this is likely why Vettel is now a triple champion and all we're hearing is how dominant the Red Bull was. We more than rarely see where the dominant car doesn't turn out to be the one driven by the driver champion. This cannot seem to be the case for the last 3 yrs., 2 of which, the Red Bull really wasn't that far ahead.

Hamilton lacks completeness while Jenson is complete while lacking the edge in pace. As a result, the two have been quite evenly matched over three years and the pace obsessed who believe that's all there is to it, are quite full of unending excuses to account for their similar points tallies over 3 yrs within the same team.

Edited by ali_M, 27 December 2012 - 14:05.


#434 tkulla

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 14:58

Even though it's the team he grew up with, I don't think McLaren is really a great fit for Lewis. Jenson is far better suited to their data-driven clinical approach. They will now have a very clear engineering focus - give Jenson a car just as he likes it. That really wasn't necessary with Lewis, and I think the team will benefit from having a very specific technical goal. I expect a smoother, more harmonious effort from Woking this year.

Lewis to me is more of a Williams-style driver. If they could regain their old competitiveness I think it would be the perfect place for him. Give him the car and let him drive the wheels off it to get as much performance as possible. He'd also make a good Ferrari driver if they ever decide to put passion ahead of practicality again. The tifosi would learn to love his style rather quickly I would think.

#435 P123

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:03


That's a very airy-fairy arguement for 'completeness'. Maybe JB was lucky with the tyres in previous seasons, as you suggest Hamilton was this season? Maybe issues with set-up indicate a lack of 'completeness', whatever that is, although you seem to have skipped over that in your judgement,so maybe it doesn't? You will argue for JB's issues with setup, but anything stated for Hamilton is an 'unending excuse'? Perhaps you shouldn't be surprised that the points were so close- as you say, when they are both doing well they are close, and they've both had their off-form moments. Same for Webber and Vettel, or Alonso and Massa, except neither Webber nor Massa have shown to be as consistant performers as Button has.

Could it possibly be that you dislike talk of the competitiveness of the Red Bull, and would rather be more comfortable with a reality in which Hamilton was crap and Vettel did it all?

#436 boldhakka

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:20

Even though it's the team he grew up with, I don't think McLaren is really a great fit for Lewis. Jenson is far better suited to their data-driven clinical approach. They will now have a very clear engineering focus - give Jenson a car just as he likes it. That really wasn't necessary with Lewis, and I think the team will benefit from having a very specific technical goal. I expect a smoother, more harmonious effort from Woking this year.

Lewis to me is more of a Williams-style driver. If they could regain their old competitiveness I think it would be the perfect place for him. Give him the car and let him drive the wheels off it to get as much performance as possible. He'd also make a good Ferrari driver if they ever decide to put passion ahead of practicality again. The tifosi would learn to love his style rather quickly I would think.


:up: Hamilton might fit into RBR as well, but I wouldn't be surprised if it goes either way. Button is just really happy with his lot in life now, McLaren is turning out to be a great fit for him.

#437 Rybo

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:45

For this year, Button had issues with his car setup for a while. This has little to do with his potential pace. We have repeatedly seen what Jenson can be like when his car setup is to his liking. We may say that he's very sensitive to setup and this is likely the case though this may be overemphasized. I think it's more that Hamilton may have had the upper hand in setup with the tyres this year.

When they're both doing well, there's little that seems to separate them. I've been seriously surprised by this since Button was so underrated, it would seem and/or Lewis was so overrated, it would seem. As to the Lewis overrating, this is likely why Vettel is now a triple champion and all we're hearing is how dominant the Red Bull was. We more than rarely see where the dominant car doesn't turn out to be the one driven by the driver champion. This cannot seem to be the case for the last 3 yrs., 2 of which, the Red Bull really wasn't that far ahead.

Hamilton lacks completeness while Jenson is complete while lacking the edge in pace. As a result, the two have been quite evenly matched over three years and the pace obsessed who believe that's all there is to it, are quite full of unending excuses to account for their similar points tallies over 3 yrs within the same team.


What makes a complete driver? How can Button be complete, but lacking in pace?

#438 CHIUNDA

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 16:05

I can't see any team boss that would choose Button over Hamilton..


Whitmarsh chose Button over Hamilton

#439 CHIUNDA

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 16:12

I bet Jenson is having a much better xmas than Lewis!


Of course Jenson is breathing better air, drinking better water, passing better stool and generally doing and experiencing all things better than Lewis.

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#440 senna da silva

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 16:55

Hamilton lacks completeness


Yeah, Lewis was completely let down by McLaren.

#441 undersquare

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 17:24

Even though it's the team he grew up with, I don't think McLaren is really a great fit for Lewis. Jenson is far better suited to their data-driven clinical approach. They will now have a very clear engineering focus - give Jenson a car just as he likes it. That really wasn't necessary with Lewis, and I think the team will benefit from having a very specific technical goal. I expect a smoother, more harmonious effort from Woking this year.

Lewis to me is more of a Williams-style driver. If they could regain their old competitiveness I think it would be the perfect place for him. Give him the car and let him drive the wheels off it to get as much performance as possible. He'd also make a good Ferrari driver if they ever decide to put passion ahead of practicality again. The tifosi would learn to love his style rather quickly I would think.

Yeah I agree McLaren is the team Jenson always needed. Lewis surely belongs at Red Bull though - aggressive design, music and youth appeal.

#442 Fox1

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 17:25

Whitmarsh chose Button over Hamilton

Well, there's always one, isn't there.

#443 techspeed

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 18:15

Whitmarsh chose Button over Hamilton

That comment has so much fail.

Whitmarsh didn't have to choose between them at all. Considering Button renewed his contract last year, Button was going to be there next year whether Hamilton wanted to choose McLaren or Mercedes. To suggest Whitmarsh had a choice would mean that if McLaren renewed Hamiltons contract they would have to end Buttons contract two years early.

Next is the implication that such a major decision is entirely down to Whitmarsh, while forgetting that Ron Dennis is still his boss even though he doesn't turn up at the races and forgetting that there another six members of the board. To suggest it was Whitmarsh's choice implies he has control over the board.

Again, to suggest it was Whitmarsh's choice would mean that if Whitmarsh wanted Hamilton to race for McLaren then Hamilton would have to race for them even though he wanted to race elsewhere. Everything coming out of McLaren and Hamilton says time and again that it was down to Hamilton wanting to try something new, not that he was forced out and had to find somewhere else to drive. McLaren wanted to keep Hamilton, Red Bull told Hamilton they didn't want him when he approached them. Mercedes went looking for a Schumacher replacement because Schumacher was dithering over a new contract and Hamilton saw an opportunity there. I'm sure if the Mercedes seat hadn't been available Hamilton would still be racing for McLaren next year.

If you want to point fingers at someone to 'blame' that Hamilton won't be in one of the big three teams next year, then you had better look at Hamilton and no one else.

Edited by techspeed, 27 December 2012 - 18:23.


#444 lewymp4

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 18:46

Lewis surely belongs at Red Bull though - aggressive design, music and youth appeal.


Lewis is surely on Mateschitz list if Vettel should leave Red Bull, as he said....." if he ever leave us, we would wish him well, and then nothing would stop Alonso or Hamilton driving for us. "

http://www.motorsport.com/#!/f1/news/a...tel-mateschitz/


#445 tkulla

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 22:05

Yeah I agree McLaren is the team Jenson always needed. Lewis surely belongs at Red Bull though - aggressive design, music and youth appeal.


So funny that I didn't even think of Red Bull. You're exactly right, of course. It's just hard for me not to think of it as Seb's team now after the 3 WDCs I guess.

Before Webber re-signed I thought there was some possibility of Lewis heading there because although it would probably destabilize a well-oiled machine somewhat it would be spectacular from a marketing point of view. I wonder if they knew then that Seb was going to win the championship again (which didn't seem likely then) if they woujld have offered him a deal. After all, Seb winning the title over and over is starting to lose some of its freshness from a news/PR/advertising perspective.


#446 undersquare

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 23:54

So funny that I didn't even think of Red Bull. You're exactly right, of course. It's just hard for me not to think of it as Seb's team now after the 3 WDCs I guess.

Before Webber re-signed I thought there was some possibility of Lewis heading there because although it would probably destabilize a well-oiled machine somewhat it would be spectacular from a marketing point of view. I wonder if they knew then that Seb was going to win the championship again (which didn't seem likely then) if they woujld have offered him a deal. After all, Seb winning the title over and over is starting to lose some of its freshness from a news/PR/advertising perspective.

It's ironic really. Sebi the least marketable wdc since Mansell at the most marketing-driven brand in F1, while Lewis the most marketable guy in F1 ever, probably, now joins his second grey team. Makes me think Dietrich has been more lucky than clever amassing his fortune lol.

Well it'll be interesting to see what happens at Mercedes F1.

#447 CHIUNDA

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 00:08

If you want to point fingers at someone to 'blame' that Hamilton won't be in one of the big three teams next year, then you had better look at Hamilton and no one else.


Nope I am not looking for someone to blame because:-
1. I was trying to illustrate that there are team principals who are willing to choose Button over Lewis for whatever reasons they may fancy
2. It was great that Lewis got himself out of the toxic atmosphere at McLaren. If it was for more money then good for him - after all he is a professional driver and is in the business for the money just like everyone else in the paddock.

In my opinion, Whirtmarsh chose Button over Lewis as evidenced by the great lengths he went to to make him feel comfortable and perform at his best at the disadvantage of not only Lewis but the team as well by sometimes raiding resources and information from Hamilton's side to prop up Jenson


#448 Seano

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 00:47

Who are the Teams that want to sign Button? I know that the big teams have indicated that they would sign Hamilton if a suitable opportunity arose, but I don't recall them ever mentioning Button recently - if at all.

Button and Whitmarsh have publicly announced their regret that Hamilton chose to leave despite Whitmarsh's last minute price match offer.

All of the major players agree that McLaren have been considerably weakened by Hamilton's choice and with the exception of Jenson and Martin, well are frankly, pretty pleased.

Seano

#449 SmokeScreen

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:01

the assumption that Button is well settled, universally liked and an immovable object in McLaren is, i think, worth further scrutiny. Likewise i’m not of opinion Button @ McLaren in 2014 is a foregone conclusion.
...
slightly OT
Button over next season is not just about beating his inexperienced team mate – who is moving into a top team for the first time-only general public and Button-friendly media will assess on that criteria alone. if he has a similar season to 2012 then questions about taking up his option will (rightly) have to be asked. Its all right to point finger at Hulkenburg in Brazil for being beaten by Ferrari but Button’s slump did cost McLaren a lot of points, points which could have given the chance for WCC, notwithstanding Operational & reliability issues, the team will first look to blame drivers before any other internal group.

for sure he may be joined with Whitmarsh at the hip but Whitmarsh as Team Principal has not covered himself in glory, and with a young, near in-experienced driver coming in will have to man up into a less obviously biased position if he is to avoid further scrutiny. (not that I hold out much hope of MW figuring this out on his own).

even if there were no financial considerations involved with hiring Perez McLaren are already on the defensive and though they will be working hard to polish him up, there will further pressure on Button to deliver while Perez is getting up to speed –no matter how bad he turns out the least he shld get is 2 years but can you imagine if Perez is qualifying 12th-Would a corresponding 5-8th by Button be acceptable to Mclaren-just because he is winning the Teammate battle?

It gets even more complicated if there are/were financial considerations in the Perez decision then be prepared for serious support going his way to MAKE SURE he does work out with all sorts of unknown consequences.
i could on that basis, easily go into the 2014 silly season thread to speculate:
McLaren – Perez & hulkenburg
Ferrari - Alonso & Button
....
Corporate entities like McLaren are never one-mind-think-alike institutions – next year will be very intriguing. there was a number of drip drip negative briefing against Lewis even when the team cocked up there was always a way for Lewis to get the flak (& yes Button’s “free from BS criticism” pass is getting tiresome).

They may all be Button’s allies (not that these articles will do him many favours) but Poor performance(whether from Team or Driver), will generate its own friction, in private for sure as Button does know how to play the game, but friction all the same and now his is the head that sticks out highest.

Button for his own part (and perhaps as his own strategy)is tying up loose ends from this season and laying groundwork for next...

he (or someone with his tacit approval) has been churning out these autosport interviews on a regular basis this off season. a few articles back one of them appeared to almost be a job lobbying exercise – “about how he would have been with the team for 4 yrs by the end of 2013 so settled with the Engineers and that it is risky going for a new driver when the regulations are changing etc...” paraphrasing.

this one about pace amounts to a slap in the face to Lowe’s Team (whom I don’t believe are his staunchest ally even with the ‘Birthday Cake’ tweet at the start of the season but that’s another post) but the one stating “Hamilton will surprise Rosberg” also had some sting to it – “what he can do in a bad car” to paraphrase again. Was he suggesting that the times there was a performance differential between them the car was “bad”?

....Next year’s McLaren watch will be tasty.


... I’m just saying.

Edited by SmokeScreen, 28 December 2012 - 01:39.


#450 ali_M

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:11

That's a very airy-fairy arguement for 'completeness'. Maybe JB was lucky with the tyres in previous seasons, as you suggest Hamilton was this season? Maybe issues with set-up indicate a lack of 'completeness', whatever that is, although you seem to have skipped over that in your judgement,so maybe it doesn't? You will argue for JB's issues with setup, but anything stated for Hamilton is an 'unending excuse'? Perhaps you shouldn't be surprised that the points were so close- as you say, when they are both doing well they are close, and they've both had their off-form moments. Same for Webber and Vettel, or Alonso and Massa, except neither Webber nor Massa have shown to be as consistant performers as Button has.

Could it possibly be that you dislike talk of the competitiveness of the Red Bull, and would rather be more comfortable with a reality in which Hamilton was crap and Vettel did it all?


Hamilton is the one supposedly miles ahead of Jenson with Jenson not in his league etc. etc. etc. Yet, the the points tally doesn't reflect this. A points tally spanning three seasons. Hamilton isn't the one who needs his abilities explained. It's Jenson who needs his explained.

While Hamilton is better on pace, he's not as good mentally, in race craft or team leading as Jenson. Button came on as the underdog and 'stole the show' within the team. Those who are enamored by speed only, will always be at odds with those who come along and do better despite not being as quick as their darling 'quick' driver.

What makes a complete driver? How can Button be complete, but lacking in pace?


Button is lacking in pace compared to Hamilton... perhaps the quickest of all the drivers on the grid now. It's not that Button isn't quick. It's not that Alonso isn't quick.

I'm comparing the two drivers and not making absolute statements/claims even if they seem that way from my admittedly dodgy wording. For me, Hamilton's speed doesn't make up for his other issues and this is why he's not as successful as he could be given the equipment that he's had at his disposal since his career's start. Button makes up for his pace through his strength in other areas. One could actually argue that neither of them are complete since Button's lack of pace compared to Hamilton is too much. I don't have much of an issue with that POV actually.

I'd not at all be surprised if they continued to score similarly in the points given a chance at another season. But we'll never know. For me, their pretty much equal performance level as a result of a different mix of strength/weaknesses is a point well made. Time for something different as we'll get with Hamilton now at Mercedes.