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Briatore- The only one who helped Ferrari was Webber


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#51 chrisj

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 16:15

What I dont understand is why people are surprised and outraged that 1) Briatore remains influential as a driver manager and otherwise behind the scenes... and that an "upstanding guy" like MW would be managed by him 2) MS let SV past in the last race.

Why do you guys think F1 is some kind of super professional, utra ethical zone... when a) its run by a guy under investigation for bribery, b) its owned by private equity funds, c) most of the teams have at least one owner who is ...shall we say, questionable, in some way. d) Every year leading teams are caught cheating in one way or another. e) the specialist press is bought and paid for with access and other perks and behave like PR for the teams and "sport" in general - when is the last time one of them did any kind of investigation into the stuff that's wrong in F1... these guys call cheating "looking for loopholes" and "rule bending" FFS. g) the ruling body often actively intervenes in the championships via rulings and mid season technical "clarifications". etc etc

What would it take to get some of you guys to take the blinders off and stop putting these guys on a pedastal?

In this context, am I not entitled to my opinion after two and a half decades of watching that LH and MW did not defend against FA to 100% of their abilities in the last third of the season.... if you dont think that happened, you are entitled to your opinion but dont be behaving like "oh my god - that would never happen - they are professionals and "racers"".


Congratulations. That is the post of the year and sums up my feelings of the state of the "sport" perfectly.

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#52 BackOnTop

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 16:45

What I dont understand is why people are surprised and outraged that 1) Briatore remains influential as a driver manager and otherwise behind the scenes... and that an "upstanding guy" like MW would be managed by him 2) MS let SV past in the last race.

Why do you guys think F1 is some kind of super professional, utra ethical zone... when a) its run by a guy under investigation for bribery, b) its owned by private equity funds, c) most of the teams have at least one owner who is ...shall we say, questionable, in some way. d) Every year leading teams are caught cheating in one way or another. e) the specialist press is bought and paid for with access and other perks and behave like PR for the teams and "sport" in general - when is the last time one of them did any kind of investigation into the stuff that's wrong in F1... these guys call cheating "looking for loopholes" and "rule bending" FFS. g) the ruling body often actively intervenes in the championships via rulings and mid season technical "clarifications". etc etc

What would it take to get some of you guys to take the blinders off and stop putting these guys on a pedastal?

In this context, am I not entitled to my opinion after two and a half decades of watching that LH and MW did not defend against FA to 100% of their abilities in the last third of the season.... if you dont think that happened, you are entitled to your opinion but dont be behaving like "oh my god - that would never happen - they are professionals and "racers"".

Because 99% of the population are not Cheaters, and cannot subscribe to your views that just because cheating is rampant, we need to accept it!!!

There are other things to love about Formula 1.... and these shady characters are least of those things. Only another cheat would try and defend these a$$holes, and not everyone thinks they are correct to run this sport in the first place.

For example, I like a particular driver because he doesn't feel the need to cheat, force his team to cheat, or act honourable by stealing/arm-twisting teammates into submission. Apart from hardcore Alonso & Schumi fans, neutral F1 fans & journalist have hardly shed a tear for their failures in recent years.... it's logical not to shed. It was more logical for me to understand Felipe Massa's emotions on the podium at Brazil than Alonso's.

You trying to say what Lance Armstrong supporters keep harping till now.... "Everyone cheated, so it was okay for Armstrong to blood dope as he was the best of the cheaters".

No thanks, I don't subscribe or 'want' to understand corrupted people, especially when they ruin other drivers/riders career while doing it.

PS- You do realize I hope that Briatore & Alonso didn't care a jot if Nelson Piquet Jr got injured fatally.... but I guess you are the type who'll say that it was a 'safe accident', so I don't know what the fuss is all about. I would suggest you drive your car into a tree at 40 KMPH to get an idea.

Edited by BackOnTop, 08 December 2012 - 17:18.


#53 choyothe

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 16:55

Really? I remember Mark saying before the race his focus was on his own race, not necessarily helping anyone. However I remember when he let Seb by, the team thanking him very much for moving over. I remember Silverstone where Mark was told to hold position and not try to overtake Seb, and he didn't. That's being a good team player in my book. Not sure what some of you all expect from him.


You remember wrong considering Webber obviously disregarded that order and tried his best to overtake Vettel in the last 2 laps anyway. Webber is a very poor team player, at least in his career for RB.

Flavio is a great guy, I have a lot of respect for him. F1 needs such soulful characters like him and not droids like Christian Horner.


Pathetic.

#54 BackOnTop

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 19:15

The question is why should we hear this guy talk? Why give any importance to the non-sense and no information he has to mutter? I don't think this is news worthy at all. We are giving it unnecessary attention by opening a thread for non-information like this. Best way to treat this guy is post his utterances in some already existing threads, if at all. Nothing against you BackonTop, it's just about the guy!

2008 is a long time ago and new fans join F1 every year.

This thread, & people like Briatore needs to be constantly brought up so that it is never forgotten that cheats like him existed... And still exist!

If anything, it's beneficial that a reminder is sounded & his action/words scurtinized. Hell, one guy above is actually missing a Soulful character like this fat bastard... To the point he prefers this cheat to Christian Horner.

You get my point I hope, SM.

Edited by BackOnTop, 08 December 2012 - 19:41.


#55 H2H

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 19:34

2008 is a long time ago and new fans join F1 every year.

This thread, & people like Briatore needs to be constantly brought up so that it is never forgotten that cheats like him existed... And still exist!

If anything, it's beneficial that a reminder is sounded & his action/words scurtinized. Hell, one guy above is actually missing a Soulful character like this fat bastard... To the point he prefers this cheat to Christian Horner.

You get my point I hope.


Indeed. Pathetic, as choyothe put it, with which I agree also on the rest of his post.

Edited by H2H, 08 December 2012 - 19:35.


#56 rolf123

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 20:37

How can anyone who ordered a pilot to purposefully crash for his own prodigal son to win a race be labelled as a "good" guy? :confused:

Call it whatever you'd like. I personally thought It was great to see the maestro pass the baton to his younger German counterpart on his way to setting another record in the sport Michael once dominated.



Oh come on, look how many people adore Senna and Schumacher and ignore the dangerous and shameful incidents both are well known for in their careers. Briatore instructed some strategy and you vilify him for it. I'm still shocked at the penalty to him. It wasn't that bad what he did, I personally don't see anything wrong with initiating a safe crash and a SC.


Pathetic.



You call this discussion/debate?

Edited by rolf123, 08 December 2012 - 20:38.


#57 Cult

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 20:52

Oh come on, look how many people adore Senna and Schumacher and ignore the dangerous and shameful incidents both are well known for in their careers. Briatore instructed some strategy and you vilify him for it. I'm still shocked at the penalty to him. It wasn't that bad what he did, I personally don't see anything wrong with initiating a safe crash and a SC.





You call this discussion/debate?


So we're to actually ignore that:

a) he blackmailed someone threatening to end their career
b) he pre-meditated an accident not involving himself

I'm glad you can be okay with someone doing this because this type of thing disgusts me.

#58 Clatter

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 21:04

Oh come on, look how many people adore Senna and Schumacher and ignore the dangerous and shameful incidents both are well known for in their careers. Briatore instructed some strategy and you vilify him for it. I'm still shocked at the penalty to him. It wasn't that bad what he did, I personally don't see anything wrong with initiating a safe crash and a SC.





You call this discussion/debate?


Wow. I really hope your joking and forgot to add the smilies.


#59 krapmeister

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 21:19

Oh he's not joking - the Godfather is always calling for a safe crash and usually for Seb... :p :lol:

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#60 rijole1

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 21:45

Domenicali beware! Flavio is after your seat!

:p :lol: Flavio never gives upp.
He really personalize the dark side of F1. Darth Flavio

#61 BackOnTop

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 21:52

Oh come on, look how many people adore Senna and Schumacher and ignore the dangerous and shameful incidents both are well known for in their careers. Briatore instructed some strategy and you vilify him for it. I'm still shocked at the penalty to him. It wasn't that bad what he did, I personally don't see anything wrong with initiating a safe crash and a SC.





You call this discussion/debate?

Nobody can debate your point of view!

It's so crazy & fundamentally cracked. Like I said earlier, only a Cheater can sympathize with another.

Also, dropping names to justify your "clients" acts doesn't help either, which funnily enough, you have labelled it yourself as Dangerous & Shameful.

Edited by BackOnTop, 08 December 2012 - 21:58.


#62 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 23:08

Congratulations. That is the post of the year and sums up my feelings of the state of the "sport" perfectly.


Except that it hasn't been any different since the 50ies. If you don't like it, why are you watching?

#63 SpaMaster

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:19

Briatore instructed some strategy and you vilify him for it. I'm still shocked at the penalty to him. It wasn't that bad what he did, I personally don't see anything wrong with initiating a safe crash and a SC.





You call this discussion/debate?

Non-sense. Pure non-sense. Yes, I call 'pathetic' as discussion or debate for this. If only F1 could impose bans for fans also who side with actions like that of Singapore 2008. Race fixing, crashing and scandal of the worst kind, you have the sense to call it as 'strategy'? I am sure you see Armstrong's doping and match fixing scandals of Cricket as strategy as well.

#64 SpaMaster

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:21

Except that it hasn't been any different since the 50ies. If you don't like it, why are you watching?

Just because it hasn't been any different, it can't be condemned or even hope for a change. Or, everyone who watches it likes it. That post was written in very right context.

#65 baddog

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:06

Racing ethics lessons from Flav? riiight

#66 apoka

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:10

Really? I remember Mark saying before the race his focus was on his own race, not necessarily helping anyone. However I remember when he let Seb by, the team thanking him very much for moving over. I remember Silverstone where Mark was told to hold position and not try to overtake Seb, and he didn't. That's being a good team player in my book. Not sure what some of you all expect from him.

Looking at the past years, In my opinion, Webber is good at playing the media and creating drama out of possible inequality. He basically races for himself and rather wants his opponents to win than his team mate. That is certainly an attitude you can have and understandable, but I don't think it makes him a particular good team player.


#67 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 13:14

Just because it hasn't been any different, it can't be condemned or even hope for a change. Or, everyone who watches it likes it. That post was written in very right context.


But if all evidence since the inception of the sport shows that this is how it is, it seems nonsensical to complain after 60 years. EDIT: What I actually wanted to say, I think, is that it seems nonsensical to call it "the state" of the sport, as if it was a new and temporary thing.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 09 December 2012 - 13:54.


#68 fabr68

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 13:51

Oh come on, look how many people adore Senna and Schumacher and ignore the dangerous and shameful incidents both are well known for in their careers. Briatore instructed some strategy and you vilify him for it. I'm still shocked at the penalty to him. It wasn't that bad what he did, I personally don't see anything wrong with initiating a safe crash and a SC.

You call this discussion/debate?


You got a point there. Senna once before a race called that he will puposly crash and take someone out to fix the outcome of a championship. And he did. Not many call him a "cheat" for that. The opposite, he makes no. 1 spot in many of their "all time greats" lists.

It just goest to show the bias and double standards existing inside the F1 world. What outrages some is ok if somebody popular or well liked does it.

I don't think what Briatore did with Piquet or the way Senna crashed Prost were good incidents. Both could have resulted in a third party killed or severely injured. But you can bet some people will think one of these incidents was ok and justified. Lets not be hypocrites.

Edited by fabr68, 09 December 2012 - 13:55.


#69 kpchelsea

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 14:27

Sure, blame MS for Ferrari failing to win...
What was MS suppose to do with a car that was significantly slower?
And besides, Vettel already had what he needed (7th place), it's not as if Michael handed the Wdc to him.

Plus Webber was on hand to give up his place, its just the blame game

#70 kpchelsea

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 14:32

What I dont understand is why people are surprised and outraged that 1) Briatore remains influential as a driver manager and otherwise behind the scenes... and that an "upstanding guy" like MW would be managed by him 2) MS let SV past in the last race.

Why do you guys think F1 is some kind of super professional, utra ethical zone... when a) its run by a guy under investigation for bribery, b) its owned by private equity funds, c) most of the teams have at least one owner who is ...shall we say, questionable, in some way. d) Every year leading teams are caught cheating in one way or another. e) the specialist press is bought and paid for with access and other perks and behave like PR for the teams and "sport" in general - when is the last time one of them did any kind of investigation into the stuff that's wrong in F1... these guys call cheating "looking for loopholes" and "rule bending" FFS. g) the ruling body often actively intervenes in the championships via rulings and mid season technical "clarifications". etc etc

What would it take to get some of you guys to take the blinders off and stop putting these guys on a pedastal?

In this context, am I not entitled to my opinion after two and a half decades of watching that LH and MW did not defend against FA to 100% of their abilities in the last third of the season.... if you dont think that happened, you are entitled to your opinion but dont be behaving like "oh my god - that would never happen - they are professionals and "racers"".

Out of curiosity when did this happen with Hamilton and Alonso?

#71 Mandzipop

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 17:05

Please stay on topic. This is related to what Flavio said about Mark, not the 2008 incident.

#72 sailor

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 14:50

Let's take Hamilton:-

Singapore - winning
Japan - no opportunity to defend against Alonso, race cut short
Korea - Alonso outdragged Hamilton down the straight along with the Lotus and Massa. Not sure how he could have defended better than that without targeting Alonso and crowding him which is illegal.
India - unbelievable stuff at the beginning between the two and Jenson. Surely that wasn't not defending to 100% of your abilities.
Abu Dhabi - no opportunity to defend, too far up the field
US - no opportunity to defend, too far up the field
Brazil - no opportunity to defend, winning for large parts

As for Webber you might have slightly more of a point as there's absolutely none for Hamilton. 2 overtakes, both right at the start when the Ferrari had far more drag on both occasions (down the straight).


Germany - Hamilton unlapped himself from Vettel , then sits in between him and Alonso .
Brazil - Webber gets a run on Alonso after he messes up a corner , Webber backs off before next braking zone even with Alonso sliding and missing braking points .

If you looks closely - you can see elements in F1 who wanted Alonso to take the challenge to Vettel and I dont think thats really a bad thing - in every multi entry sport , you have your own favorites.

But its lame to accuse the other when he gets a similar benefit .