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Austrian Grand Prix to return to calendar in 2014 [Merged]


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#151 st99

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 18:02

An on-board with Marc Gené in the Ferrari F60 in 2011

Edited by st99, 23 July 2013 - 18:04.


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#152 Skinnyguy

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 18:26

How it used to be (1987).


How about onboard:


In '87, the lap record had an average speed of 257km/h (~160mph). In 2003, the lap record on the new track was only 228km/h (140mph). I bet the 2003 car on the old ('87) track would have been pushing 280km/h (175mph) average.


Now THAT´S a circuit. I had never seen it, I always thought it´d be a straight-chicane festival with high average speed (like pre 2002 Hockenheim) but this is good stuff instead. I have no interest at all in the old Hockenheim comming back, I don´t even like it, but boy, this circuit was really worth. :up:

#153 Les

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 18:31

Its great to see the Osterreichring/A1/Red Bull Ring back in F1, hopefully not at the expense of another European race though. Its not the original Osterreichring of course but its a fine modern day circuit. Its very short as well so probably lots of action with traffic coming into play and good value for spectators at the track. I would happily bet on the fact that the New Jersey race is now dead in the water. I wouldn't imagine the calendar would go above 20 races so something will have to give since Russia looks like its happening. Hopefully its Korea (or maybe India with its money troubles) that will drop instead of Belgium or Germany, for example.

#154 mattferg

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 18:56

The cars were doing sub 1:10 laps by 2002-03. I can't imagine that they're going to be significantly slower come 2014 with turbos, KERS and DRS, even if they're down on overall engine power.

Well then, is it possible to see the first sub 1 min lap time?

You know the cars are significantly slower than they were in 2002-3, right?

To put it in perspective, I've chosen two dry weather races from then and now in Brazil:

2004 - fastest lap: 1:11.473
2011 - fastest lap: 1:15:324

2004 - pole position: 1:10:646
2011 - pole position: 1:11:918

And that's with the EBD for 2011. I'd be surprised if the 2014 cars even reach 1:11.

Edited by mattferg, 23 July 2013 - 18:57.


#155 anbeck

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 19:00

DTM really has troubles to keep the drivers from using the asphalt run-offs in the first and last turns, so I hope F1 will find a solution.

In any case it's good news, and I am really looking forward to it!

#156 HaydenFan

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 19:35

Well then, is it possible to see the first sub 1 min lap time?


Already covered.

But to the above post, while I don't see more grass or dirt run off to come, but at least for DTM, bringing little runoff to the final corner like they have at Road America would solve the problem. Because now we have F1, what does the Bahrain circuit do?

Edited by HaydenFan, 23 July 2013 - 19:38.


#157 froggy22

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 19:38

You know the cars are significantly slower than they were in 2002-3, right?

To put it in perspective, I've chosen two dry weather races from then and now in Brazil:

2004 - fastest lap: 1:11.473
2011 - fastest lap: 1:15:324

2004 - pole position: 1:10:646
2011 - pole position: 1:11:918

And that's with the EBD for 2011. I'd be surprised if the 2014 cars even reach 1:11.

Actually, not quite true. The 2004 cars were massively faster than the 2003 cars. If we compared a 2003 car(last car to race at the A1 Ring) to a 2012 car, the 2012 car is actually slightly faster.
2003 Hungarian GP Pole : 1:21.688 by Alonso
2012 Hungarian GP Pole : 1:20.953 By Hamilton
I'd expect the 2013 car to be able to get a 1:09 at least at the Red Bull ring. Obviously we don't know how fast the 2014 cars will be so that's anyone's guess. Doubt it will be faster than 1:08

#158 RetroF1

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 19:40

:D

The lighter shade is the very original layout back in the 70s or whenever it was, the black one is the current circuit layout!

The black line is what was used last time F1 was there. The grey is the old track from 77-95. (from 69-76, the chicane at T1 wasn't there).

lol, ok thank heavens for that :p

Edited by RetroF1, 23 July 2013 - 19:40.


#159 Goron3

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 19:54

You know the cars are significantly slower than they were in 2002-3, right?

To put it in perspective, I've chosen two dry weather races from then and now in Brazil:

2004 - fastest lap: 1:11.473
2011 - fastest lap: 1:15:324

2004 - pole position: 1:10:646
2011 - pole position: 1:11:918

And that's with the EBD for 2011. I'd be surprised if the 2014 cars even reach 1:11.


They will be much slower at first, just like the 2009 cars...by 2015/2016 they will be bloody quick though and I could see them doing a 70 second lap once we reach that point.

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#160 Myrvold

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 20:12

I want gravel/grass outside the track.

#161 prty

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 20:29

Great, after getting having two F1 teams, and the WRC promotion, Red Bull puts itself into an even more influential position with a circuit in the calendar.

#162 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 20:30

I want gravel/grass outside the track.


Unfortunately unlikely to happen. I imagine they'll put some slippy astro-turf style kerbing on the exit of Turn 1. To whoever said the layout had been changed since 2003, I'm not sure that it has. Well, it certainly didn't look like it had when I was watching the WSR at the weekend!

And even if astro-turf style kerbing isn't installed, Whiting could still impose punishments - there were no end of 'track limits' warnings in the WSR. Maybe a 3-strikes rule could be implemented, like they did with regards to cutting the Monza chicane if I remember correctly?

Edited by Gene and Tonic, 23 July 2013 - 20:30.


#163 Atreiu

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 20:46

Actually, not quite true. The 2004 cars were massively faster than the 2003 cars. If we compared a 2003 car(last car to race at the A1 Ring) to a 2012 car, the 2012 car is actually slightly faster.
2003 Hungarian GP Pole : 1:21.688 by Alonso
2012 Hungarian GP Pole : 1:20.953 By Hamilton
I'd expect the 2013 car to be able to get a 1:09 at least at the Red Bull ring. Obviously we don't know how fast the 2014 cars will be so that's anyone's guess. Doubt it will be faster than 1:08


There was a considerable jump from 2003 to 2004, and both were much faster than the 2012 cars. Check Hungaroring's fastest laps (qualifying was skewed by cars carrying race loads of fuel in 2003 and 2004):

2003, Montoya - 1'22.095
2004, Schumacher - 1'19.071
2012, Vettel - 1'24.136

To put it in perspective, the current cars would have a hard enough time keeping up with the non-refueling 2010 cars (the 2010 Hungarian GP was only .068 of a seconds slower than 2012 despite the SC appearance) and they would only see the 2003 cars whenever they were lapped. Not to mention the 2004 cars...

Anyhow, again, there won't be a sub one minute lap at the A1 Ring/Red Bull Ring anytime soon. It's just a number, hopefully the races will be good.

#164 Antonov

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 20:59

that's 2 new grand prix in Europe (in the large sense).

I can see Valencia going. Costs a chunk of money to organise the event and doesn't seem to be that popular either. I wouldn't shed tears for its disappearance.

next we'll have
- Brands Hatch
- Zandvoort
- Paul Ricard (graveled)
- Imola
- downtown Detroit

all back on the calendar :cool:

#165 r4mses

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 21:03

[...]
next we'll have
[...]
- downtown Detroit

all back on the calendar :cool:


since everyone and his dog left "moto city"... at least there's enough space for a race track and nobody cares about the noise ;)

#166 Shiroo

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 21:13

Detroit is bankrupt. Won't host any F1 race ever again.

#167 Afterburner

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 21:17

Unfortunately I never got to see a race on this track in any of its incarnations, despite having driven it on games and always wanting to see it on TV/live. Really glad that it's come back--more races on classic tracks in Europe can only be a good thing. :up:

Now if only we could get Estoril and Magny-Cours or Paul Ricard on the calendar...

Edited by Afterburner, 23 July 2013 - 23:10.


#168 Risil

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 21:23

Detroit is bankrupt. Won't host any F1 race ever again.


Wait till Belle Eel declares independence

#169 HaydenFan

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 21:27

since everyone and his dog left "moto city"... at least there's enough space for a race track and nobody cares about the noise ;)


You could bulldoze half the town and nearly nobody would be effected to build a track. Kinda like India or Shanghai.

What I have seen posted is the excitement that it is a European GP and not an Asian event that is sparsely attended.

#170 DinocoBlue

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 21:30

Great, after getting having two F1 teams, and the WRC promotion, Red Bull puts itself into an even more influential position with a circuit in the calendar.

True, but then they've got their hand in no end of other things (ie. New York Red Bulls (football) or EC Red Bull Salzburg (ice hockey)) its almost as if this is a drop in the ocean.

On one hand it could be troubling, on the other its good that they've used their pots of cash to bring a track like Spielberg's back to the calendar.

Edited by DinocoBlue, 23 July 2013 - 21:31.


#171 hogstar

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 22:15

I remember the A1 Ring being slated by many F1 fans and weren't exactly heartbroken when it was off the calendar, so I find the interest in its 2014 return rather odd.

The old long circuit was lovely, if somewhat dangerous. That version isn't coming back!

#172 scheivlak

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 22:31

I remember the A1 Ring being slated by many F1 fans and weren't exactly heartbroken when it was off the calendar, so I find the interest in its 2014 return rather odd.

There wasn't much enthousiasm for the track when it emerged again in its new form on the calendar in 1997 but when we lost it after 2003 feelings became rather different.


#173 P123

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 22:34

Great, after getting having two F1 teams, and the WRC promotion, Red Bull puts itself into an even more influential position with a circuit in the calendar.


At least we have one 'traditional' sponsor putting money into the sport. The likes of Enstone, Sauber, Force India and Caterham lack independent sponsors.

#174 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 23:40

I remember the A1 Ring being slated by many F1 fans and weren't exactly heartbroken when it was off the calendar, so I find the interest in its 2014 return rather odd.

The old long circuit was lovely, if somewhat dangerous. That version isn't coming back!



Osterriechring >>>>A1/Red Bull Ring > Generic Asian Tilkedrome

It isn't that the new tracks are inherently bad. It is just that they all have a certain sameness to each other. There is no need for all of them. Even if it isn't a great track, at least Red Bull Ring is somewhat unique on the calendar, which is a step up. Less same, more different. Which is the same reason that the old Hockenheimring is better than the new one. It was unique.

#175 mattferg

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 23:45

True, but then they've got their hand in no end of other things (ie. New York Red Bulls (football) or EC Red Bull Salzburg (ice hockey)) its almost as if this is a drop in the ocean.

On one hand it could be troubling, on the other its good that they've used their pots of cash to bring a track like Spielberg's back to the calendar.


EC RB Saltzburg and the NY RBs aren't as famous as FC RB Saltzburg, the football team.

As for the layout, anyone interested should buy Grid 2. It's got all the RBR layouts.

Edited by mattferg, 23 July 2013 - 23:46.


#176 mattferg

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 23:52

Actually, not quite true. The 2004 cars were massively faster than the 2003 cars. If we compared a 2003 car(last car to race at the A1 Ring) to a 2012 car, the 2012 car is actually slightly faster.
2003 Hungarian GP Pole : 1:21.688 by Alonso
2012 Hungarian GP Pole : 1:20.953 By Hamilton
I'd expect the 2013 car to be able to get a 1:09 at least at the Red Bull ring. Obviously we don't know how fast the 2014 cars will be so that's anyone's guess. Doubt it will be faster than 1:08


In 2003 they carried larger race fuel loads in qualifying, skewing the results. Also, 2014 cars aren't going to be faster than 2013 on a single lap on a power track. The cars will qualify slower than 2003, I bet you that.

#177 George Costanza

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 00:36

There was a considerable jump from 2003 to 2004, and both were much faster than the 2012 cars. Check Hungaroring's fastest laps (qualifying was skewed by cars carrying race loads of fuel in 2003 and 2004):

2003, Montoya - 1'22.095
2004, Schumacher - 1'19.071
2012, Vettel - 1'24.136

To put it in perspective, the current cars would have a hard enough time keeping up with the non-refueling 2010 cars (the 2010 Hungarian GP was only .068 of a seconds slower than 2012 despite the SC appearance) and they would only see the 2003 cars whenever they were lapped. Not to mention the 2004 cars...

Anyhow, again, there won't be a sub one minute lap at the A1 Ring/Red Bull Ring anytime soon. It's just a number, hopefully the races will be good.


Schumacher's fastest lap was faster than his pole lap in 2004, now that's remarkable....

But, yes, 2004 is the fastest cars of all time, faster than 2005?

#178 Atreiu

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:09

I believe cars were faster in 2004 than in 2005, but not by a huge ammount. The 2004 fastest laps tended to be quicker and there were't so many races in which the F2004 was forced to run at ten tenths to win.

#179 bourbon

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:25

This is great news. While Seb is at RBR he'll ahve an official home race - those are nice.

I still think we need a French GP and when is Russia happening? Still in 2014? Any word on that? What about Jersey?

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#180 AustinF1

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:21

I can see Valencia going. Costs a chunk of money to organise the event and doesn't seem to be that popular either. I wouldn't shed tears for its disappearance.

Umm....

#181 Jimisgod

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:25

Good track, what little of it there is.

I hope they don't decide to add a useless Silverstone like expansion.

#182 Kristian

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:44

I remember the A1 Ring being slated by many F1 fans and weren't exactly heartbroken when it was off the calendar, so I find the interest in its 2014 return rather odd.


Personally I've always loved it, but indeed many fans yearned for the days of the Osterreichring.

But back in the late 90s people found the Hungaroring unspiring and boring, and now its known as a classic track, with nice challenges and elevation... the influx of flat Tilkedromes has put it all into perspective.

#183 wingwalker

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 09:37

As it's been said already, the comments on lap time from the first page are way too optimistic, 2014 cars will clock in at around 1:09 in a low fuel run, and I don't mind that at all, short tracks are fun. My main concert is that with DRS and KERS it's overtaking will be laughably easy, I hope DRS zones will be really short.


edit: also, we might see some really unusually cambered wheels. Only two left turns on the entire track!

Edited by wingwalker, 24 July 2013 - 09:38.


#184 abundance

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:31

Do Austrian people actually support Red Bull the same way italians support Ferrari or Brits support Mclaren?

#185 jstrains

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:35

Austrian news inform about no license for 2014, problems with farmers and about a limitation to 40.000 spectators per year
http://sport.orf.at/...189139/2189138/

Posted Image

Edited by jstrains, 24 July 2013 - 10:39.


#186 abundance

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:38

good pic jstrains, it looks like a nice area. however ive heard that access to this place is quite difficult for teams and fans.

#187 plumtree

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:42

Do Austrian people actually support Red Bull the same way italians support Ferrari or Brits support Mclaren?

Austrian fans would give the right answer, but it's not a fair comparison, IMO. The team is still very young and their factory is based in UK.

#188 Fangiola

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:50

Austrian fans would give the right answer, but it's not a fair comparison, IMO. The team is still very young and their factory is based in UK.


Do the Brits actually support McLaren, or do they Support british drivers . I will think the latter, I think its fortunate that in recent years 2 Brit drivers just happened to drive for McLaren. Am sure Williams receives as much support as McLaren does.

a bit random and OT

Edited by Fangiola, 24 July 2013 - 10:51.


#189 jstrains

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:51

Do Austrian people actually support Red Bull the same way italians support Ferrari or Brits support Mclaren?


I do not think so. If there was an Austrian driver winning for them instead of Vettel, it would be a different story. I think they admire Jochen Rindt, Niki Lauda or Gerhard Berger more. Many times you can see F1 on TV in restaurants and pubs...

Edited by jstrains, 24 July 2013 - 10:56.


#190 plumtree

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:56

Do the Brits actually support McLaren, or do they Support british drivers . I will think the latter, I think its fortunate that in recent years 2 Brit drivers just happened to drive for McLaren. Am sure Williams receives as much support as McLaren does.

a bit random and OT

Good question and I tend to agree with you. Then again, I'm not the right person to answer to that question either.

#191 Shiroo

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:58

I do not think so. If there was an Austrian driver winning for them instead of Vettel, it would be a different story. I think they admire Jochen Rindt, Niki Lauda or Gerhard Berger more. Many times you can see F1 on TV in restaurants and pubs...

also you can't compare a team that is like few years old vs teams that has legacy of 60 years in F1 and even more in motorsport in general

#192 Skinnyguy

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 13:53

I believe cars were faster in 2004 than in 2005, but not by a huge ammount. The 2004 fastest laps tended to be quicker and there were't so many races in which the F2004 was forced to run at ten tenths to win.


It was all down to tyres I think. The much harder tyres for 2005 made the difference and allowed the 2004 machines to score most of the track records and of course completing the GP distances much faster. However, even with the much harder tyres, by the end of the season, the 2005 cars were lapping faster in some special occasions, like the Japanese GP.

The 2005 cars were probably faster despite the aero restrictions (higher FW, pushed forward RW) and the further reliability requirements (engines having to last twice as much). The new tyres however slowed them massively, both in peak speed and (especially) over a GP distance.

#193 William Hunt

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 14:08

good pic jstrains, it looks like a nice area. however ive heard that access to this place is quite difficult for teams and fans.


It's a bit in the middle of nowhere to be honest, the biggest city located to it is Linz. It is however in a lovely area. Austria in the summer is a wonderful (and not expensive at all) place to spend 1 or 2 weeks on holiday so I'm considering visiting the GP next year.

#194 Atreiu

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 14:09

It was all down to tyres I think. The much harder tyres for 2005 made the difference and allowed the 2004 machines to score most of the track records and of course completing the GP distances much faster. However, even with the much harder tyres, by the end of the season, the 2005 cars were lapping faster in some special occasions, like the Japanese GP.

The 2005 cars were probably faster despite the aero restrictions (higher FW, pushed forward RW) and the further reliability requirements (engines having to last twice as much). The new tyres however slowed them massively, both in peak speed and (especially) over a GP distance.


You're most probably right. And the good old V10s... I sometimes wonder if it'd be better to set a hp cap, say 850 HP and no refueling, and then let the teams work out whatever architecture they wish. Turbos, V8, V10, V12... KERS nor KERS...

Great picture jstrains. From the looks of it, the layout is entirely intact, except for the T1 exit sort of bending on itself on that dark tarmac patch. The pit entry has also been moved backwards towards the T7 exit instead of T8 entrance.

#195 Sin

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 14:56

I do not think so. If there was an Austrian driver winning for them instead of Vettel, it would be a different story. I think they admire Jochen Rindt, Niki Lauda or Gerhard Berger more. Many times you can see F1 on TV in restaurants and pubs...


You sure they not cheering for Seb? I think it would be more the fact that Red Bull is not really a car manufacturer like Ferrari, people love Ferrari cause they love their cars... Red Bull doesn't have a similar cult status...

even tho personally I dislike Ferrari and love RBR, I guess that the thing...

I think Seb might be more popular in Austria than in non german speaking countries... dunno, tho I got a few friends in Austria, maybe I should ask them

After all Austria is not only getting F1 on ORF, they also get the german private TV channels, just like Switzerland and RTL is part of those...

Edited by Sin, 24 July 2013 - 15:04.


#196 Der Pate

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 18:11

Good track, what little of it there is.

I hope they don't decide to add a useless Silverstone like expansion.


The environment wouldn´t allow any expansion.

Do Austrian people actually support Red Bull the same way italians support Ferrari or Brits support Mclaren?


Red Bull is a very popular brand here in Austria! There will be a huge crowd at the Red-Bull-Ring cheering for Red Bull, but maybe the same number will cheer for Ferrari, as it stands for motorsport. Vettel is also very popular in Austria, as he isn´t the typical German, which isn´t liked by the Austrians. If Raikkonen would drive the Red Bull next year, there could be more fans for him...

It's a bit in the middle of nowhere to be honest, the biggest city located to it is Linz. It is however in a lovely area. Austria in the summer is a wonderful (and not expensive at all) place to spend 1 or 2 weeks on holiday so I'm considering visiting the GP next year.


The biggest city near Spielberg would be Graz, which is the second largest city in Austria. It is 78km from the track. I was at the last GP at the A1-Ring, and there were no hotels near the track. You can only rent rooms at family-houses, but as I heard today morning, these familys already received the first phone-calls from people, who want rooms. Taking a hotel a bit outside would be a great idea, but it is all very narrow near the track and the parking-space is small. The best thing would be camping, which I want to do next year.

#197 midgrid

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 18:30

Good news; the layout is simple but each and every corner is a challenge to get right, the result being something which is unlike anything else on the calendar at present.

I'm still a bit sad, however, that this proposed extension, using parts of the old circuit, was not built when Red Bull acquired the circuit:

Posted Image

#198 Der Pate

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 18:43

Never saw this proposed extension before! Would have been great!

When I drove at the A1-Ring myself (must be 1999 or 2000) the old circuit was still there. I drove there, and it was a strange mood with the old advertising-banners. I was at the Red-Bull-Ring last summer, and the track is one of the most pitoresque and beautiful race-tracks I know. But I still don´t know, if the old track is still there. As far as I know, it was demolished with the A1-Ring, when Red Bull took over. Is there anyone, who knows more?

#199 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 19:15

Good news; the layout is simple but each and every corner is a challenge to get right, the result being something which is unlike anything else on the calendar at present.

I'm still a bit sad, however, that this proposed extension, using parts of the old circuit, was not built when Red Bull acquired the circuit:

Posted Image


Comparing that to the photo above, the first part of the extension would cut through that forest. Apart from environmental reasons, it looks like it would be on the side of a hill, so I'm not sure exactly how that would work without major landscaping. Also the proposed bit at Remus looks a bit Mickey Mouse too. I'm not surprised it didn't go ahead.

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#200 Kobasmashi

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 19:21

Never saw this proposed extension before! Would have been great!

When I drove at the A1-Ring myself (must be 1999 or 2000) the old circuit was still there. I drove there, and it was a strange mood with the old advertising-banners. I was at the Red-Bull-Ring last summer, and the track is one of the most pitoresque and beautiful race-tracks I know. But I still don´t know, if the old track is still there. As far as I know, it was demolished with the A1-Ring, when Red Bull took over. Is there anyone, who knows more?


Man that must have been spooky! I love the old sponsor barriers like John Player, Martini, Campari, Agip... :love: :love:! Considering how simple it's layout is, I always found the A1 Ring picturesque, however the massive tarmac runoffs have somewhat ruined it, more so than they have ruined other older tracks. Look how pretty the little Nurburgring in a similar setting is still, because it's retained so much grass and gravel!

Edited by Kobasmashi, 24 July 2013 - 19:22.