296 replies to this topic

[Winter98]

"Third fastest car" has potential to be fifth or six on the grid. "Fourth fastest" is seventh or eighth. Not necessarily third or fourth on the grid.

True.

But if a fourth fastest car is the most reliable, it could still effectively be the "best" car to have in terms of earning championship points.

[CrucialXtreme]

How did the Red Bull suddenly become the fastest car in the field?
McLaren was faster 10 times, and about equal 3 times, not to mention other teams at times.

Here you go trying to downplay the pace of the RB8. Did you forget about Singapore, Korea, Japan & India? Did you not see the pace of the RB8 coming through the field in AD? I'm not saying the RB8 was head & shoulders above the McLaren because at times the MP4-27 was surely the quickest car in the field but at no point after the summer break other than Monza was the F2012 quicker than the RB8. That's what matters. This thread isn't about the outright fastest. It's about whether or not Fernando "choked" because he lost to a quicker car.

No he didn't "choke". It's the superb reliability of the F2012 that kept Fer in contention throughout the year. Reliability, some good driving & some good luck is what kept him in it. However when your rivals are bringing updates that actually work and you're bringing updates that don't work as they should, well that tells the story. Ferrari improved their car up until the summer break, Germany at the latest. RB & McLaren brought updates until the last races that worked. Other than Monza the F2012 wasn't capable of winning a race on pace(like much of the season) whereas the RB & McLaren were capable.
It's widely recognized in the paddock that Ferrari didn't really improve the car after summer so why there is a question about Alonso "choking" is beyond me.

[Mauseri]

With regards to the relative strength of the cars, it's clear to me that the Ferrari was not a strong qualifying car but was competitive in the races (within a couple of tenths most of the time).

It could, at least partially be because of Alonso. Not so many memorable qualifying efforts in his career, but always gets his chances in the races. I have no doubt that Lewis or Vettel would have occupied more top-3 grid slots with that.

[ViMaMo]

So true, the ferrari was the most underrated car of the season. Sure, it started a dog but alonso had super luck to get massive points (and a win in rain), but at a point in the season it was even the pace-setter. And like you say, the faster starting car by a margin.
Regarding the choking, if you see massa outperforming alonso by a clear margin in the last two races, you could perfectly argue that yes, he got shaken at the end and didnt extract everything from the car, both in qualy and race trim.

Nice

Add to that Alonso's slight qualifying handicap, the recipe is complete. Alonso and Ferrari lost the 2012 championship.

If you can agree that Ferrari was at the most 3rd fastest in race trim which is really a consensus (ask any stat guru here who have compiled data), while being 4th fastest in qualifying; its just another of those things Alonso fans make up to glorify him.

Edited by ViMaMo, 27 December 2012 - 02:57.

[BackOnTop]

If Alonso is given credit for the results in the season beginning.... Then it is only fair to state that Alonso failed to utilize the Ferrari's true potential in the last races of the season in qualifying, which directly affected him not winning one of the last 4 races.

All of a sudden, Massa looked like Ferrari's No.1 performer Monza onwards, so much so that in Brazil... He was comfortably beating Alonso in trecherous condition... While Alonso was all over the shop. Hulkenberg, in a Force India, left him in trailing in his spray.

The biggest glare was Abu Dhabi, where Alonso & Ferrari got outperformed by a Lotus throughout the race. Alonso really should have won that race & collected the extra 7 points for the championship. Here was a real case when a driver managed to outperform his car with sheer determination and will to win- over a mega, string of fastest lap setting Ferrari.

He even got massive help from the safety car, but the Lotus driver simply blew him away at the restart. A heavily updated Ferrari with gazzilons of dollars getting beaten by a team hit badly by lack of resourses was really when Alonso lost the Championship.

Edited by BackOnTop, 27 December 2012 - 06:25.

[Oho]

The "I'm racing Newey" campaign clearly demonstrates a lack of mental strength, and character for that matter.

Yes that was just plain stupid, like shooting yourself on the foot by trying to alienate yourself from the very people you depend on as far as professional life is concerned.

[Group B]

Yes that was just plain stupid, like shooting yourself on the foot by trying to alienate yourself from the very people you depend on as far as professional life is concerned.

Indeed. Michael very rarely slagged his car/team off, even in the dark days of 1996, which must've been beneficial to him in the long.

[selespeed]

Indeed. Michael very rarely slagged his car/team off, even in the dark days of 1996, which must've been beneficial to him in the long.

michael very rarely had a slower car for a whole season when he fought for championships...

[1Devil1]

michael very rarely had a slower car for a whole season when he fought for championships...

yeah, Michael never had a slower car fighting against the mighty Newey cars (97,98). oh wait he never shouted out loud he is fighting against a superior machine like Alonso did. I would rate both seasons higher than Alonso 2012 campaign

[ensign14]

Indeed. Michael very rarely slagged his car/team off, even in the dark days of 1996, which must've been beneficial to him in the long.

Basically because Ferrari replaced the team with Benetton's.

[Group B]

Basically because Ferrari replaced the team with Benetton's.

So what? The fact remains that there were several seasons at Ferrari where he didn't have the best car, but never resorted to the superhero in a crap car whining that Fred came out with this year.

[Group B]

michael very rarely had a slower car for a whole season when he fought for championships...

No, really.

[ensign14]

So what? The fact remains that there were several seasons at Ferrari where he didn't have the best car, but never resorted to the superhero in a crap car whining that Fred came out with this year.

What I meant was that there was little point in blaming the team, when he was getting a world championship team behind him. Ferrari in 2000 was what Benetton would have been had everyone stayed put. And one wonders how much Bernardo Ecclepietri had in manipulating F1's top brand into the leading position.

[selespeed]

No, really.

in 1998. he had 3 wins in a row....and 3 poles in a row...268 laps led...

Edited by selespeed, 27 December 2012 - 10:40.

[Group B]

in 1998. he had 3 wins in a row....and 3 poles in a row...268 laps led...

...and was clearly beaten by his team mate who nearly won the championship in the same car...

[apoka]

My biggest annoyance with threads like this is that mistakes and underperformance are judged by their consequence rather than for the mistake itself. For example, Vettel crashed at both Abu Dhabi and Brazil but got away with it. Had those incidents ended his race (particularly Brazil) then Vettel would be the one under scrutiny for choking. The error from the driver would have been the exact same but the perception of that error different. This applies to all drivers and all mistakes.

You make a good point, but I am not sure whether those two incidents are the best examples, since both were mostly judged to be racing incidents.

[selespeed]

...and was clearly beaten by his team mate who nearly won the championship in the same car...

yeah...same as alonso this year...

[smoothcrim]

What i dont like is Alonso saying he had the perfect season.How can it be perfect if he didnt win the WDC,surely u can always do better,especially since u came second.

I wouldnt say he choked,but he certainly was far from perfect.He had the most luck and the most help from his team mate out of all the drivers,sure his car wasnt the best but none of this years cars were dominant.

Vettel is a great Champion who rises to the occasion like few that i have seen.Every other driver in the paddock should be watching over their shoulder as Vettel is the man of the moment.Alonso didnt choke but he certainly felt Vettels pressure and was beaten by the better man.

[Group B]

yeah...same as alonso this year...

You clearly weren't paying attention if you think Massa beat Fred this year.

[Buttoneer]

Posts deleted.

If you think someone is trolling, report them and say why. Please do not call other posters names.

[prty]

It was Alonso who should have driven aggressively and take risks. But it was him who played it very cautious, drove carefully to the point of even his teammate had to let him pass. Reminded one of Abu Dhabi 2010 when he did not even try an ovetaking attempt. Alonso always deferrs and gets very cautios in high pressure situation when he is actually supposed to attack.

You keep repeating that, even made a thread about it. Then you get replied with images like these:



But still keep saying the same
There wasn't a "brake a bit later" anymore, actually after the moment of that image, he went off the track, as he already broke too late.

About him not taking risks:

[sniper80]

Alonso was far ahead of what was logically possible at the summer break. The results were not given by a great car, just by great performances of the driver, and the fact that his 'real' title rivals all messed up at some races, giving him all the advantage.
Then came a period where Alonso had lesser luck (something that happens to every driver over 20 races...) and title favorites Vettel / Red Bull came back on top in that period. That's what killed his championship off. Nothing else. He didn't choke, the guy has battled for so many championships already, he's not going to choke

[halifaxf1fan]

If Alonso is given credit for the results in the season beginning.... Then it is only fair to state that Alonso failed to utilize the Ferrari's true potential in the last races of the season in qualifying, which directly affected him not winning one of the last 4 races.

All of a sudden, Massa looked like Ferrari's No.1 performer Monza onwards, so much so that in Brazil... He was comfortably beating Alonso in trecherous condition... While Alonso was all over the shop. Hulkenberg, in a Force India, left him in trailing in his spray.

The biggest glare was Abu Dhabi, where Alonso & Ferrari got outperformed by a Lotus throughout the race. Alonso really should have won that race & collected the extra 7 points for the championship. Here was a real case when a driver managed to outperform his car with sheer determination and will to win- over a mega, string of fastest lap setting Ferrari.

He even got massive help from the safety car, but the Lotus driver simply blew him away at the restart. A heavily updated Ferrari with gazzilons of dollars getting beaten by a team hit badly by lack of resourses was really when Alonso lost the Championship.

I agree with you about Abu Dhabi. Alonso I think was demoralized by the outcome of that race: he was unable to catch Raikkonen even though he had a better car and Vettel in spite of starting at the back managed to put himself on the podium and limited the damage to a few points to Alonso's disbelief. Also I think that Alonso by the season's end had physically run out of steam, he looked exhausted after AD while Vettel and Raikkonen appeared ready to do it all again.

I don't think 'choke' is the right term but perhaps he was just a bit tired and worn down by the long season where he had carried the weight for Ferrari by himself.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 27 December 2012 - 17:04.

[paulogman]

alonso drove out of his skin to even be in contention
no choke at all
I think he was the best driver of the year

[ensign14]

alonso drove out of his skin to even be in contention
no choke at all
I think he was the best driver of the year

#haikufail

[Winter98]

Alonso was far ahead of what was logically possible at the summer break.

That makes no sense.

The results were not given by a great car, just by great performances of the driver, and the fact that his 'real' title rivals all messed up at some races, giving him all the advantage.

And Alonso messed up by not getting the most out of the car down the stretch. As Massa comprehensively demonstrated, the Ferrari was capable of earning Alonso four more points in the final races.

Then came a period where Alonso had lesser luck (something that happens to every driver over 20 races...) and title favorites Vettel / Red Bull came back on top in that period. That's what killed his championship off. Nothing else.

We do know Alonso was mentally rattled, as his "I'm racing Newey" campaign clearly demonstrates.

My opinion is that as Alonso watches his historical legacy of "Best of his generation" slip away, he is letting it affect his mental state and thus his driving.

Edited by Winter98, 27 December 2012 - 17:47.

[Group B]

That makes no sense.


And Alonso messed up by not getting the most out of the car down the stretch. As Massa comprehensively demonstrated, the Ferrari was capable of earning Alonso four more points in the final races.


We do know Alonso was mentally rattled, as his "I'm racing Newey" campaign clearly demonstrates.

My opinion is that as Alonso watches his historical legacy of "Best of his generation" slip away, he is letting it affect his mental state and thus his driving.

Fred is a fantastic driver, but he's not faultless.

[pRy]

He drove the balls off that Ferrari in every race. I can't think of a race where he finished and people could suggest he had an average race or a poor race. He moved forward from his grid position in many of the races and quite often at the end in the hat room he looked exhausted, pouring water over his head etc while Vettel and Button etc looked like they'd come back from a casual Sunday afternoon drive in the countryside. Yes Alonso is a little older but he isn't unfit.. I think it was more because of the effort he had applied during those races that the others did not.

As for the Massa thing at the end of the year.. I wonder if that was more to do with the direction Ferrari went with setup on Alonso's car, trying to compensate for their lack of one lap qualifying pace and giving Fernando a car he could work with in the races. They perhaps over compensated and hindered him in qualifying when they perhaps did not need to (As Massa showed in the races). But that's just my own theory.

But "choke"? Absolutely not. Let's not forget who had the messy race in Brazil and was lucky to finish.

[BackOnTop]

I agree with you about Abu Dhabi. Alonso I think was demoralized by the outcome of that race: he was unable to catch Raikkonen even though he had a better car and Vettel in spite of starting at the back managed to put himself on the podium and limited the damage to a few points to Alonso's disbelief. Also I think that Alonso by the season's end had physically run out of steam, he looked exhausted after AD while Vettel and Raikkonen appeared ready to do it all again.

I don't think 'choke' is the right term but perhaps he was just a bit tired and worn down by the long season where he had carried the weight for Ferrari by himself.

Well, then we can safely assume that the weight & weariness on Vettel must have been enormous, considering he basically had to hunt down a 42 Poins defecit, and really had to drive his balls out in the final 10 races to eventually triump.

Long Season weariness simply cannot be used as an excuse for performance drop off, especially amongst the Top 3 drivers in the standing. The 20 race season was for everyone, so one has to assume all drivers were equally weary by the end of it all, except Grosjean who had a nice holiday in Italy to the envy of the entire grid who had to slug it out for one extra weekend.

Choke is not the word, I agree. Lack of Mental strenght to carry on when the opposition is hammering you (4 wins in a row)... Maybe so.

As is Vettel as a competitor wasn't enough, Alonso kinda doomed his own brains by adding "Newey" to his list of "enemies" fighting in the sea & mountains. It was unnecessary by any standards.

Edited by BackOnTop, 27 December 2012 - 18:28.

[Group B]

He drove the balls off that Ferrari in every race. I can't think of a race where he finished and people could suggest he had an average race or a poor race. He moved forward from his grid position in many of the races and quite often at the end in the hat room he looked exhausted, pouring water over his head etc while Vettel and Button etc looked like they'd come back from a casual Sunday afternoon drive in the countryside. Yes Alonso is a little older but he isn't unfit.. I think it was more because of the effort he had applied during those races that the others did not.

As for the Massa thing at the end of the year.. I wonder if that was more to do with the direction Ferrari went with setup on Alonso's car, trying to compensate for their lack of one lap qualifying pace and giving Fernando a car he could work with in the races. They perhaps over compensated and hindered him in qualifying when they perhaps did not need to (As Massa showed in the races). But that's just my own theory.

But "choke"? Absolutely not. Let's not forget who had the messy race in Brazil and was lucky to finish.

I don't think he choked as such, but nor was he perfect. You can blame set-up or whatever, but there's no getting away from the fact that the much maligned Massa made that car look good enough in the last few races to get those extra 4 points; the pace was potentially there. As for Vettel being 'messy'; let's not forget who overcame numerous setbacks to get the job done, while Alonso was unable to capitalise.

Was Fred the better driver over the year? Probably, but only those to wish to slip inside his pants buy the idea that he was an untouchable god at every race while Vettel was just lucky to be in a Newey rocket.

[1Devil1]

He drove the balls off that Ferrari in every race. I can't think of a race where he finished and people could suggest he had an average race or a poor race. He moved forward from his grid position in many of the races and quite often at the end in the hat room he looked exhausted, pouring water over his head etc while Vettel and Button etc looked like they'd come back from a casual Sunday afternoon drive in the countryside. Yes Alonso is a little older but he isn't unfit.. I think it was more because of the effort he had applied during those races that the others did not.

As for the Massa thing at the end of the year.. I wonder if that was more to do with the direction Ferrari went with setup on Alonso's car, trying to compensate for their lack of one lap qualifying pace and giving Fernando a car he could work with in the races. They perhaps over compensated and hindered him in qualifying when they perhaps did not need to (As Massa showed in the races). But that's just my own theory.

But "choke"? Absolutely not. Let's not forget who had the messy race in Brazil and was lucky to finish.

Moving forward in the race doesn't mean you have done everything that was possible. Massa had massive problems at the beginning of the season but was really no measuring stick of the performance level of the ferrari. People tend to think Alonso drove the wheels of the Ferrari. We don't know what Vettel or Hamilton would have achieved in a Ferrari. Both are known to be the best qualifiers of the top drivers and Alonso was never special in qualifying. So behind his performance in qualifying is big questions mark for me. The starting position is important in F1 even in the days of pirelli and DRS. If you believe Alonso squeezed everything out of the car in qualifying - he did great if you believe otherwise he gained his lost positions back in the race. There is no questions about his race craft. He is most likely the best driver out there but there are three things I think why this season is not perfect.

- Qualifying performance
- mistake in Suzuka
- losing out against Massa the last races

[ViMaMo]

Moving forward in the race doesn't mean you have done everything that was possible. Massa had massive problems at the beginning of the season but was really no measuring stick of the performance level of the ferrari. People tend to think Alonso drove the wheels of the Ferrari. We don't know what Vettel or Hamilton would have achieved in a Ferrari. Both are known to be the best qualifiers of the top drivers and Alonso was never special in qualifying. So behind his performance in qualifying is big questions mark for me. The starting position is important in F1 even in the days of pirelli and DRS. If you believe Alonso squeezed everything out of the car in qualifying - he did great if you believe otherwise he gained his lost positions back in the race. There is no questions about his race craft. He is most likely the best driver out there but there are three things I think why this season is not perfect.

- Qualifying performance
- mistake in Suzuka
- losing out against Massa the last races

Funny that Massa isn't the yard stick, then when he starts to match Alonso, he is the yard stick.

We don't know how Fernando or Lewis would have performed either in the Red Bull.

How do you know that Fernando didn't squeeze everything out in qualifying? Maybe he isn't the greatest qualifier but look at his history in qualifying from other seasons, he isn't very far off from the qualifying gurus given the equipment. Qualified 12 times in second row or better in 2010, enough ?

Edited by ViMaMo, 28 December 2012 - 01:49.

[BackOnTop]

Funny that Massa isn't the yard stick, then when he starts to match Alonso, he is the yard stick.

We don't know how Fernando or Lewis would have performed either in the Red Bull.

How do you know that Fernando didn't squeeze everything out in qualifying? Maybe he isn't the greatest qualifier but look at his history in qualifying from other seasons, he isn't very far off from the qualifying gurus given the equipment. Qualified 12 times in second row or better in 2010, enough ?

Ferrari 2010 development started mid-season in 2009!! All resources & technical brains were taken away from that car & put into Lord Alonso's future car with the idea being Alonso should get the best equipment upon his arrival at the expense of Kimi Raikkonen's Ferrari.

All Kimi was left with to wage a lone battle was his personal expertise on Car Setup to remotely stand a chance of fighting the Brawns, RBR & a mega developing Mclaren... & came out triumpant by scoring Maximum points along with Hamilton Hungary onwards.

To imply that Ferrari in 2010 was poor is pretty lame. Even so, it seemed like Alonso managed to take a Race winning car at season start (Bahrain 1-2) backwards with his feedback & setup ideas. How else can it be, when the whole team & gazzilions of dollars is spent purposely for 1 man alone... And he still fails 3 years in a row.

[ViMaMo]

Im not implying 2010 car was poor, im saying he historically isnt a bad qualifier as some make him out to be this season.

------------

I made a statistic of Vettel versus Alonso. Its the no of times Vettel was faster than Alonso. Example 46-12 means Vettel put in 46 laps that were faster than Alonso's.
Haven't gone completely into it. Alonso was completely dominating in Spanish GP. Whereas Vettel was completely dominant in Aus, Bhn, Hun, Sin, Kor and Usa. The numbers in brackets show finish positions.

Aus: 46 - 12 (2-5)
Mal: 23 - 33 (11-1)
Chn: 24 - 32 (5-9)
Bhn: 50 - 07 (1-7)
Spn: 15 - 51 (6-2)
Mon: 40 - 38 (4-3)
Can: 37 - 33 (4-5)
Eur: Vet was leading until retiring.
Gbr: 27 - 25 (3-2)
Ger: 31 - 36 (5-1)
Hun: 50 - 19 (4-5)
Spa: Alonso Crash
Ita: 20 - 27 (7-2) (SV was 7th before he retired)
Sin: 42 - 17 (1-3)
Jap: Alonso Crash
Kor: 41 - 14 (1-3)
Ind: 36 - 24 (1-2)
Abu: 21 - 34 (3-2)
Usa: 48 - 08 (2-3)
Bra: 39 - 32 (6-2)

[selespeed]

Eur: Vet was leading until retiring.

situation before vettel retired??

[BackOnTop]

Both Alonso & Kimi were & still are very good at qualifying overall.

Then they had to switch to Bridgestones taking away certain advantages that they had built up over their initial career. Massa held the advantage against Kimi on saturdays as he continued his understanding of the bridgestones shod Ferrari. Meanwhile, Hamilton got the better off Alonso in the same year when he switched to Mclaren & took some time to make them work to his liking relates to losing all his setup data left behind at Renault. Hamilton seemed to get on it from the start.

But what both have proved in 2012 is that they have deliberately gone a bit conservative since that experience, & have chosen to play their set-ups for maximum benefit for the race with the Pirelli tyres.

Grosjean got slower than Kimi on race day in all races, except Valencia maybe. So saturdays, under no pressure, certqin drivers can do a fast lap, but they lack Raceday skills when startegy needs to be executed as per plan.

Massa does lack that skill that Alonso has... & even against Raikkonen in 2008 Massa did not have the skills to match Kimi's race pace as can be ascertained with KR record equalling 10 fastest laps.

Alonso & Raikkonen both got badly hampered in their Race Strategies 2007 onwards thanks to an era where overtaking became a luxury.

As 2012 has proven again, both champions are awesome in the race, and DRS & Kers have handed some advantage back to drivers who have great race crafts.

I don't think it'll take long for Kimi to get Saturdays car ready next year with his comeback year now done and dusted. Alonso seems to have figured it out too, but would really be a touch annoyed with the last 4 races when Massa seems to gain some extra pace out of nowhere.

2013 is citical year for Alonso, & he must not slack with a couple of bad races in the season beginning & handing any advantage back to Massa. Should be interesting.

Edited by BackOnTop, 28 December 2012 - 10:31.

[Buttoneer]

Kimi is off topic here.

While the title uses an inappropriately emotive term, the question for this thread is nevertheless whether Alonso failed to perform to his best possible standard because the pressure got to him.

If there is nothing more to say on that subject, please do not post.

[Taxi]

I was almost forgeting Canada. Alonso and Ferrari didn't make the right call there. He could have been higher.

As for Alonso not being a good qualifyer it's nonsense: Look at his stats. Maybe, just maybe, a 0,1 behind Vettel and Hamilton but that's it, he's easily the 3 rd best right now. In 2012 last races he didn't do brilliantly, granted, specialy at Abu Dabhi and USA.

Edited by Taxi, 28 December 2012 - 11:16.

[RayInTorontoCanada]

How do you know that Fernando didn't squeeze everything out in qualifying?

I do believe that Pat Fry alluded to it on the morning following the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix.

Perhaps someone here can provide the details but when Fry - on the Monday following Abu Dhabi - suggested that Fernando wasn’t getting the best out of qualifying, Nando reportedly had a minor meltdown. It was reported it in the Latin languages media and forum members on Autosport.com picked up on it.

Alonso continued to down play the car's qualifying capability ["...the car is only capable of 8th..." or somesuch.]

But, then, Fry was proven to be right when Massa put the car higher up on the grid at Austin (only to be grid dropped) and Interlagos (where he was again the faster Ferrari driver and drove circles around Webber).

While the title uses an inappropriately emotive term, the question for this thread is nevertheless whether Alonso failed to perform to his best possible standard because the pressure got to him.

Yes. Looks like it. Especially in light of Pat Fry's observation. Lucky for the Englishman, Massa proved him right.

It's gotten to the point that no one is allowed to criticize Nando for some sort of fear of raising his ire or pissing him off.

Yet Ferrari have had no problem ditching drivers who've been far more successful: Schumacher, Prost, Lauda come to mind. Even with Raikkonen they were 3 for 6 in terms of World Championships.

Alonso's been there a full 3 seasons with Ferrari getting a huge lead start for 2010 when they stopped development on the F60 mid-way through 2009.

Yet there's been no championships and an extreme subjugation of the 2nd driver.

If Alonso doesn't deliver, Ferrari will ditch him because Spain and it's banks (like Santander) are going to go down the bail-out route and Santander won't be the be-all-end-all for Ferrari for ever.

I can see Ferrari dumping Alonso for Vettel sooner than 2016 if Nando fails to deliver and continues to undervalue the over-all quality of the Ferraris.

The other thing that is in poor order was Alonso blaming Kimi for Suzuka T1. ["...I don't know what Kimi's plan was for the first corner/Kimi should have lifted..." or somesuch]

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 28 December 2012 - 14:33.

[Taxi]

Even so it does not label Alonso as a poor qualifyer. In fact IMO he was only bested this year by Hamilton. Vettel was beated by Webber, remember?

Edited by Taxi, 28 December 2012 - 14:09.

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Even so it does not label Alonso as a poor qualifyer. In factIn fact IMO he was only bested this year by Hamilton. Vettel was beated by Webber, remember?

Webber has always been a qualifying specialist.

Button hadn't had a Pole since Monaco in 2009 until he took Pole at Spa this year.

Barrichello and Hamilton were able to extract Poles from Brawns and McLarens from post-Monaco 2009 to pre-Spa 2012...but Button wasn't capable of it. A sure sign that Button isn't great at singular lap speed.

Webber, historically, has been regarded as a great qualifyer.

[mnmracer]

Even so it does not label Alonso as a poor qualifyer. In fact IMO he was only bested this year by Hamilton. Vettel was beated by Webber, remember?

Alonso was bested by Hamilton 8:9 in 2007.
He was bested by Trulli 7:8 in 2004 (tied 8:8 in 2003).

Vettel's 'closest call' was beating Webber by 'only' 11:9 this year, but still has bested Webber by 54:21 overall (72%).
Hamilton's 'closest call' was Alonso, and has beaten Button with 44:14 overall (75.9%).

[prty]

Alonso was bested by Hamilton 8:9 in 2007.
He was bested by Trulli 7:8 in 2004 (tied 8:8 in 2003).

So it's as equal as it gets with two of the best qualifiers of those times, beats Massa 17-2, but Alonso apparently lacks in qualifying, love it

Also, the historic team mate comparison in qualifying:

Alonso: 147-50 (2.94:1 ratio)
Hamilton: 78-31 (2.51:1 ratio)
Vettel: 70-30 (2.33:1 ratio)
Raikkonen: 105-71 (1.48:1 ratio)

Again, definite proof that he lacks in qualifying, poor guy

Edited by prty, 28 December 2012 - 14:40.

[mnmracer]

So it's as equal as it gets with two of the best qualifiers of those times, beats Massa 17-2, but Alonso apparently lacks in qualifying, love it

Also, the historic team mate comparison in qualifying:

Alonso: 147-50 (2.94:1 ratio)
Hamilton: 78-31 (2.51:1 ratio)
Vettel: 70-30 (2.33:1 ratio)
Raikkonen: 105-71 (1.48:1 ratio)

Again, definite proof that he lacks in qualifying, poor guy

In comparisson to Hamilton and Vettel, yes.
Apart from the two mentioned (Trulli and Hamilton), none of his team-mates have been remarkable qualifiers.

[selespeed]

so massa is a bad qualifier??
15 pole positions...

[Buttoneer]

It's clear that the topic has lost it's flavour from too much chewing. Closed.

[prty]

In comparisson to Hamilton and Vettel, yes.
Apart from the two mentioned (Trulli and Hamilton), none of his team-mates have been remarkable qualifiers.

Again, 8:9 to Hamilton is as close as it can get, so you can't say he's any worse than him, at least.