Jump to content


Photo

Did Alonso "Choke" In The 2012 World Championship?


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
296 replies to this topic

#51 TigersWood

TigersWood
  • Member

  • 132 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 10 December 2012 - 22:11

The fact that Fernando Alonso lost the 2012 championship had nothing to do with his car, it was his fault because Massa outperformed him and showed how bad he is.


Have I said enough to fit in this post?

Advertisement

#52 RayInTorontoCanada

RayInTorontoCanada
  • Member

  • 536 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 10 December 2012 - 22:22

So much for non-inflammatory. :wave:


I apologize if that was inflammatory.

Regardless, I feel that Alonso got a HUGE boost when Vettel's RBR broke down in Valencia. That was a BIG swing right there.

But Vettel didn't cave in. When he got that penalty and another Renault-related DNF at Monza, he could have easily caved. But he didn't.

Alonso, on the other hand, I feel, seemed to bottle it after the Spa-Suzuka 1-2 punch to the Solar Plexis. Vettel made BIG inroads in those 2 rounds and, this, I feel, rattled Alonso.

Massa, then, started to extract more from the Ferraris...and no amount of help from Ferrari (Grid Manipulation at Austin) and Massa (Tail-Gunner at Korea and Interlagos) could get Alonso "going" - in what was a solid, fast racing car which he was under-qualifying towards the end.

Perhaps Alonso may not have choked (an "opinion", remember) but perhaps he didn't want it as badly as Vettel...who - following on from Monza - could have "caved in" after the Abu Grid Penalty and then the Interlagos first half lap...but he didn't.

I still feel that Alonso bottled it. It's only a matter of opinion. And for those who think he didn't, more power to them. Let's just keep it civil.

I promise I will. Going forward.

#53 Menace

Menace
  • Member

  • 12,000 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 10 December 2012 - 22:23

I'm trying to understand, how could Alonso choke when he was the most consistent performer of the year? Because his teammate actually showed some speed in the last races?

C'mon...

#54 JSDSKI

JSDSKI
  • Member

  • 1,439 posts
  • Joined: August 06

Posted 10 December 2012 - 22:26

He drove well and got podiums in the last races but didn't manage to win when it was crucial.
He had a car which could deliver racewins.

I got the impression that he lost a bit of his selfconfidence when Vettel got his act together and the hunt began.
It's interesting that this year reminds so much about 2010 season.

Or maybe he just got a bit tired.


There was nothing anyone could really do once Newey and the RBR tech team fine tuned the aero on their car. Vettel delivered in the best car that had the best development. It's really that simple (and that difficult). If RBR had not figured out how to get the last bit of pace and driveability out of their car after the summer break then Ferrari and Alonso would have won. Because RBR was maybe 3 - 6 tenths quicker under race conditions than the F2012 and a bit more in qualy.

Neither team nor their drivers have any reason whatsoever to hang their heads. McLaren is the team that should be kicking themselves - they had a WDC and WCC winning car with a sweet spot they couldn't quite manage.

It is exceedingly difficult to win ONE GP much less a Championship. And to win multiple championships in a row is even more amazing.

#55 FNG

FNG
  • Member

  • 3,122 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 10 December 2012 - 22:32

Alonso's results in the final five races of the year were 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 2nd. This in a car that was not nearly up to the speed of either the Redbulls or the McLarens.



That's about all that needs to be said right there. He didn't choke, quite the opposite really.

#56 Craven Morehead

Craven Morehead
  • Member

  • 4,485 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 10 December 2012 - 22:38

I'd like to see a level-headed retort of my 3 paragraphs in this post.


In fact, you have had several. :)

#57 2ms

2ms
  • Member

  • 2,212 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 10 December 2012 - 22:38

I'm trying to understand, how could Alonso choke when he was the most consistent performer of the year? Because his teammate actually showed some speed in the last races?

C'mon...


He may have been consistent. But is there any particular reason why you say he was the most consistent performer of the year? Of the top 3, Raikkonen was clearly the most consistent, and I'd say Vettel the second. It's not that Alonso wasn't good, but I didn't see the others doing any of what Alonso did at Suzuka, and let's face it, the people who say Alonso did poorly relative to his teammate do have a point regarding the second half of season.

#58 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 8,529 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 10 December 2012 - 22:46

This is an utterly ridiculous thread. He had a championship lead which defied the ability of the car. Vettel very nearly chocked it, Alonso was just doing his best to stay in a title fight he had no business being involved in!

#59 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

HuddersfieldTerrier1986
  • Member

  • 1,613 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 10 December 2012 - 22:54

The fact that Fernando Alonso lost the 2012 championship had nothing to do with his car, it was his fault because Massa outperformed him and showed how bad he is.


Have I said enough to fit in this post?


I really hope you're not being serious. If you are, even the tiniest bit, then to put it simply, you're talking a load of absolute *******s.

Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 10 December 2012 - 22:54.


Advertisement

#60 F1AC

F1AC
  • Member

  • 74 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 10 December 2012 - 23:11

Yes. :)

#61 showtime

showtime
  • Member

  • 2,583 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 10 December 2012 - 23:16

I wonder why is only Alonso the target of threads like this. As far as I know he ended in front of Vettel in 2 out of the 3 last races driving a far worst car, Vettel had the car to win and didn't do it in any of them, no chocking talks. In fact he crashed twice in Abu Dhabi and again in Brazil and only by pure luck he didn't have to retire, nobody talks about chocking. By GB Vettel was clearly behind Webber in the table so he lost a lot of points in the first part of the season, underperforming but nobody talks about chocking. Double standards as always, no surprise though.

#62 bbobeckyj

bbobeckyj
  • New Member

  • 5 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 10 December 2012 - 23:27

Alonso's average qualifying position for the whole season:
6.1
Average for Japan to Brazil:
5.83

Average finish for the season (discounting the DNFs):
3
Average for Japan to Brazil (discounting the DNF):
2.4




#63 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,075 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 10 December 2012 - 23:29

Don't think Alonso choked. His run in was pretty good.
It's just that Vettel seems to up the ante in the final third of the year and he has a history of doing it, pretty much every full season his final 1/3 is his best 1/3 of the year (except maybe for 2011 in terms of results- his performances were still great)
Whether or not its a coincidence that the back end tracks all suit Vettel I doubt it. I genuinely think (and a few others are noticing this too) that when it comes to the crunch, Vettel ups his game.

He got the car working around Singapore and in a year where no-one had back-to-back wins, he went BANG BANG BANG BANG. Had he gone 1,1,2,1 or equal, he'd have lost the title

#64 Jimisgod

Jimisgod
  • Member

  • 2,310 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 10 December 2012 - 23:30

Those 5 straight podiums came about because, in some of those races, Ferrari told Massa to back off...and, if you recall, he was grid dropped in your home country.

Laugh all you want but Alonso is 0 for 2 in title showdowns for the Scuderia.

Enjoy being second!

:down:



Posted Image

#65 RayInTorontoCanada

RayInTorontoCanada
  • Member

  • 536 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 11 December 2012 - 00:09

I wonder why is only Alonso the target of threads like this. As far as I know he ended in front of Vettel in 2 out of the 3 last races driving a far worst car, Vettel had the car to win and didn't do it in any of them...


"A far worst car..." :wave:

My friend, since the summer break Webber scored way less than Massa. WAY Less.

Webber wasn't a shit driver in 2012. Webber was pretty close to Vettel in qually...and he won 2 GPs before the break...so he's not what i'd call a shit driver. Massa, on the other hand, was on the verge of being dumped for any number of names (like Perez, Button, Webber, Kimi even, Hulkenberg...they were all rumoured to be in the running for Massa's seat because he was terrible for the first few months.

And yet, since the summer break this is how Massa and Webber scored:

Massa - 97 points

Webber - 55 points

If you stricktly look at the two drivers, how can you say the Ferrari was "a far worst car" than the Red Bull.

In the same timeframe (i.e. after the summer break), Alonso scored 114.

Who here is willing to deny that Massa - on 97 - and Alonso - on 114 - wasn't an engineered result to maximize Alonso's points haul in the WDC?

In other words, Massa could have scored MORE than 97 had he not been held back or grid dropped at Korea, Austin and Interlagos.

How on earth anyone can say that the Ferrari "was a far worst car" following the summer break when Massa was blitzing Webber is beyond comprehension.

PS

Vettel, if you recall, was grid dropped to the back of the field in Abu Dhabi. So him "not winning" in Abu Dhabu from a pit lane start is hardly a fault of his own making.

#66 1Devil1

1Devil1
  • Member

  • 1,747 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 11 December 2012 - 00:17

Seems to be a unwritten law to praise the good man. Alonso was the best driver this year but in the title fight he didn't extract the maximum out of the car or user here around believe Massa became a drivers god in a short period of time? Point, is he could have done better the last races. I wouldn't call it chocking (harsh word in my opinion) but he lost his mojo and for me there is no difference if someone is losing out because of a drivers mistake or he is simple too slow because he tries to play it safe. The net result is the same. You are losing points you should have gained.



#67 ch103

ch103
  • Member

  • 641 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 11 December 2012 - 00:19

I would have to say that Alonso did not choke in the championship because you could very easily argue Spa was when the title was stolen from him.

No Grosjean, Alonso wins it all.

#68 showtime

showtime
  • Member

  • 2,583 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 11 December 2012 - 00:23

"A far worst car..." :wave:

My friend, since the summer break Webber scored way less than Massa. WAY Less.

Webber wasn't a shit driver in 2012. Webber was pretty close to Vettel in qually...and he won 2 GPs before the break...so he's not what i'd call a shit driver. Massa, on the other hand, was on the verge of being dumped for any number of names (like Perez, Button, Webber, Kimi even, Hulkenberg...they were all rumoured to be in the running for Massa's seat because he was terrible for the first few months.

And yet, since the summer break this is how Massa and Webber scored:

Massa - 97 points

Webber - 55 points

If you stricktly look at the two drivers, how can you say the Ferrari was "a far worst car" than the Red Bull.

In the same timeframe (i.e. after the summer break), Alonso scored 114.

Who here is willing to deny that Massa - on 97 - and Alonso - on 114 - wasn't an engineered result to maximize Alonso's points haul in the WDC?

In other words, Massa could have scored MORE than 97 had he not been held back or grid dropped at Korea, Austin and Interlagos.

How on earth anyone can say that the Ferrari "was a far worst car" following the summer break when Massa was blitzing Webber is beyond comprehension.

PS

Vettel, if you recall, was grid dropped to the back of the field in Abu Dhabi. So him "not winning" in Abu Dhabu from a pit lane start is hardly a fault of his own making.

Yes, the RBR was faster than the Ferrari, if you want to live on denial when even the drivers admitted it, well it your choice.
About AD, despite his two crashes Vettel was just behind Kimi, Alonso and Button after the SC with the softer tyres and the car with the best setup. He could have won that race if he had overtaken Button faster.
Btw, nice to know you don't have anything to say about the rest of my post.

#69 1Devil1

1Devil1
  • Member

  • 1,747 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 11 December 2012 - 00:25

I would have to say that Alonso did not choke in the championship because you could very easily argue Spa was when the title was stolen from him.

No Grosjean, Alonso wins it all.


and vettel's alternator and the indian backmarker on the side of the german. these outweigh games doesn't work. No Grosjean, No RedBull mistake in Abu Dhabi. Perhaps he lost it because of his mistake in Japan. Nevertheless Hamilton lost the title because of.... :drunk:

Edited by 1Devil1, 11 December 2012 - 00:26.


#70 Taxi

Taxi
  • Member

  • 3,034 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 11 December 2012 - 00:31

did not chocke. But could have made a bit better. He looked a bit lost in Austin and he had the car to be near Vettel/Hami. In brazil he was cautious and was wating for the misfortune of others. Didn't happen. The ferrari was a very good car towards the end when he most need it. Massa proved it. Fernando was just a bit slow.

#71 ViMaMo

ViMaMo
  • Member

  • 4,939 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:15

According to you: "YES"

According to me: "NO"

EOD.

#72 gillesthegenius

gillesthegenius
  • Member

  • 2,534 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:54

His form may have dipped a bit, but he didnt get anywhere close to choking.

#73 Sausage

Sausage
  • Member

  • 1,795 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:09

Now this is a real motorsport choke:

#74 RayInTorontoCanada

RayInTorontoCanada
  • Member

  • 536 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:24

Yes, the RBR was faster than the Ferrari, if you want to live on denial....


Hold on. my friend!

You said the Ferrari was "a far worst car" than the RBR and yet Alonso out-scored Vettel in 2 of the last 3 races...

...but...but when I illustrated that Massa blitzed Webber 97 to 55 after the summer break INSPITE of Massa being shit before whilst Webber was far from shit having run Vettel close in qually and having won 2 GPs, and INSPITE of Massa sacrificing his own points total in favor of Alonso's, you had no answer.

See - that's the problem with so many of Nando's die hard fans. They buy into Nando's propaganda that the Ferrari was a "dog" whilst the RBR was "dominant".

Yes, the RB8 was faster on one lap pace at the majority of those last races...but the Ferrari was very competitive in race trim and Renault cost Vettel 2 DNFs and then another 22 Grid spots in Abu Dhabi. And, the Red Bull pitstops and strategy were nothing as sharp as Ferrari's for Alonso.

But the Alonso fans want to hear none of it. They don't want to hear how absolutely razor sharp the Scuderia were at the tracks, how competitive the F2012 was in the races, how Alonso was boosted by Ferrari's subjugation of Massa...and that Massa's points haul - although stunted by having to be tail-gunner at 3 races - was still far higher than Webber's who, as we all know, was ALSO in a fight for the WDC until round 18 where he vowed to "race flat out" for himself.

I think its intellectual dishonesty to tell everyone that Alonso was disadvantaged. Massa was used to boost Alonso's points at a time when Massa in the Ferrari could have scored more points than Alonso had Ferrari told him to actually "race" to his and the F2012's capacity.

It doesn't do Alonso's fans any credit to cry about how poor the car was.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 11 December 2012 - 02:30.


#75 J2NH

J2NH
  • Member

  • 1,377 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:48

Both Vettel and Alonso had great seasons but somebody had to win and somebody had to lose. Choke is an inappropriate moniker for a driver that had a super season and perhaps a slightly slower car. Congrats again to Vettel and Red Bull for the win and to Ferrari and McLaren for keeping it close.

#76 NotSoSilentBob

NotSoSilentBob
  • Member

  • 927 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:53

Is this a serious question? Alonso did everything BUT choke. :rolleyes:

#77 seahawk

seahawk
  • Member

  • 2,922 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:06

Obviously he did. He lost a 40 point lead, he was beaten by Massa in race pace and in qualifying, poor Massa had to move over for him and he still lost the WDC. He did not only choke he totally failed under pressure.

#78 wj_gibson

wj_gibson
  • Member

  • 1,995 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:55

If you think any posts are breaking the House Rules, then report those posts. Simple, take some responsibility for keeping the thread void of "bashing"


I disagree that this is a reasonable thread.

Had the OP posted something along the lines of "how might Alonso have performed better in the final 5 races?" then that might have produced a more effective discussion. But the OP has himself more or less admitted that the whole point of this thread is to ego-bash Alonso fans. I agree with the calls elsewhere in this thread to close it as an official recognition that it is little other than an open invitation to trolling, dressed up (at great length) as a fraudulent interest in a "balanced discussion".

#79 Juggles

Juggles
  • Member

  • 889 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:59

"Choke" is too strong a word. Had he driven the perfect season he would have won the championship, but this is too much to expect from any driver.

I will say that after Japan when it became obvious Hamilton was out of the title race I started wholeheartedly supporting Alonso in the championship. Five races later as Vettel crossed the finish line in Brazil he was (marginally) my preferred WDC. I was certainly far more ambivalent than I was before the last quarter of the season. The combination of Alonso being outclassed several times by Massa, the various tricks they used to give Alonso positions he didn't deserve on merit (not that Vettel fans should be sanctimonious about this given the actions of the Toro Rossos several times and, worst of all, Schumacher in Brazil) and the continuation of Alonso's part-time job as a rampant self-publicist all came together to partially pull the perfectly coiffed wool from my eyes.

Bluntly, Vettel was pretty scrappy at times this season for a driver of his calibre but by the end of the season I didn't feel he deserved it much less than Alonso.

Advertisement

#80 wj_gibson

wj_gibson
  • Member

  • 1,995 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:04

Those 5 straight podiums came about because, in some of those races, Ferrari told Massa to back off...and, if you recall, he was grid dropped in your home country.

Laugh all you want but Alonso is 0 for 2 in title showdowns for the Scuderia.

Enjoy being second!

:down:


Whilst Massa was indeed grid dropped at Austin, Alonso himself drove the thing from 7th to 4th by the end of turn one. Whatever his qualifying distractions, he hardly under performed in the final races and I really can't see a serious argument that even had he qualified 4th at Austin that he would have finished any higher than 3rd anyway.

I don't see any threads about Vettel's "choke" at Austin or his "choke" off the line at Brazil where only extreme good fortune at Turn 4 prevented his rear suspension from being shattered. And rightly so. These are the breaks of any F1 season, they're not "chokes" (a term wheeled out on Internet forums in order to attack the self esteem of those supporting other drivers by implying that they have backed the "wrong horse" in contrast to the OP presumably, well good for you RayInToronto). The drivers are not superhuman and never have been. Once you get that basic fact into your head you stop thinking about "chokes" and appreciate the sport for what it actually is, rather than as a lightning rod for an imaginary terrain of god-like superheroes. And in that regard, as far as I'm concerned, Alonso has just delivered the best single season of any driver since Senna in 1993. Just my honest opinion, as it were.

I also note that the OP has played Suzuka for all it is worth. These things happen on a narrow track with a close field heading into Turn 1. It was ultimately an error by Alonso but a minor one (albeit a costly one but a couple of inches to the right and he would have been fine)

#81 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,789 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:23

.....And in that regard, as far as I'm concerned, Alonso has just delivered the best single season of any driver since Senna in 1993. Just my honest opinion, as it were.


That's correct in my view as well: Fernando's 2012 is right up there with Ayrton's 1993. This is the wayhow true legends are born.

#82 Claudius

Claudius
  • Member

  • 2,275 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:46

No, he didn't choke.
But that Ferrari in race trim didn't seem to be as bad as he was claiming the whole season.
He even mentioned that in his speech at the FIA gala which I thought was pretty tasteless.
Enhancing his performance by downplaying the car.

Nevertheless, a very good season but not legendary.


#83 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 5,300 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:17

That's correct in my view as well: Fernando's 2012 is right up there with Ayrton's 1993. This is the wayhow true legends are born.


I don't get that. This year was a mess. For all of the drivers. I don't think this was a shining year for Alonso, in fact, I don't think it was a shining year for anyone. There were shining moments and even shining runs over several races, but on the season, what with coming to grip with the regulations and tyres - you got 7 winners in 7 races, top drivers in the back and midfield, midfield drivers in the front, cars trying to self-shunt at every curb.... It was exciting at times, sure, and I don't think anyone at the top choked, but yeah, it was a regular mess.

Edited by bourbon, 11 December 2012 - 09:20.


#84 Claudiu

Claudiu
  • Member

  • 191 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:17

80% of all the people who eat s**t on this topic don't have a clue about what they are talking about.

#85 sailor

sailor
  • Member

  • 585 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:39

Did Alonso choke? Define choke? If you consider Ferrari the best car, he did choke. If not then, I think he drove the best he could, he did outperform Vettel in all the last three races. If I were an Alonso fan, I would have been proud of him. In my opinion, everyone is allowed to be human. He did make a mistake in Japan, and he also was conservative in his approach to racing after that, lest he crash out again and ruin his chances all together, an approach I support. Driving all out does sound glamorous, but doesn't always work (example of Kimi Germany 2005). Yes Massa was racing for him later on, but early on Massa did nothing to take any points off his rivals, kind of like Webber did with Vettel, so that argument goes both ways.


Really?
Only in Brazil - he did outperform Vettel ( if you ignore the fact that he was pointing the other way in the very first lap ) - I would be amazed if Abu Dhabi and US can be considered Alonso outperforming Vettel.

#86 2ms

2ms
  • Member

  • 2,212 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:50

All the hatred for people with the audacity to discuss whether or not a driver was perfect like a god :rolleyes:

Like it or not, when a driver loses a 40 point championship lead and gets beaten by his teammate, people are going to talk about it a little. Particularly when the driver regularly talks about how poor his car is, yet his team mate is able to use the same car to handily beat people driving the car that won the championship.

#87 motorhead

motorhead
  • Member

  • 795 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:01

80% of all the people who eat s**t on this topic don't have a clue about what they are talking about.


Fernando, is that you?

#88 wj_gibson

wj_gibson
  • Member

  • 1,995 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:13

All the hatred for people with the audacity to discuss whether or not a driver was perfect like a god :rolleyes:

Like it or not, when a driver loses a 40 point championship lead and gets beaten by his teammate, people are going to talk about it a little. Particularly when the driver regularly talks about how poor his car is, yet his team mate is able to use the same car to handily beat people driving the car that won the championship.


Yes, and "like it or not" others are going to reject the very premise of silly comments such as this.

No one was saying Alonso was "perfect like a God". This is what is known as a straw man argument and is an ancient rhetorical trick among those with poor argumentation skills.

Did Massa out-qualify Alonso twice at the end of the year? Yes. Did anyone else out-qualify their team-mate across the entire season? No.

The premise of this post seems to be that anyone who does not destroy a team-mate 20 times out of 20 in both qualifying and race conditions can be questioned in some hard way. In that way, Senna's 1993 season was not one for the Gods because Hakkinen out-qualified him at Estoril.

#89 AnR

AnR
  • Member

  • 90 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:29

He, (Alonso), had a very small window on how to challenge the Red Bull and Vettel, he knew that, aimed and missed, but he tried every way he knew, some better than other.

Massa on the other hand impressed in the later part, but he had no pressure on him like Fernando did, so his task was IMO easier, bu never underestimate Massa:s speed.


#90 SealTheDiffuser

SealTheDiffuser
  • Member

  • 832 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:35

I think he lost both arms and then couldn't push hard enough with his shoulders

#91 showtime

showtime
  • Member

  • 2,583 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:16

Hold on. my friend!

You said the Ferrari was "a far worst car" than the RBR and yet Alonso out-scored Vettel in 2 of the last 3 races...

...but...but when I illustrated that Massa blitzed Webber 97 to 55 after the summer break INSPITE of Massa being shit before whilst Webber was far from shit having run Vettel close in qually and having won 2 GPs, and INSPITE of Massa sacrificing his own points total in favor of Alonso's, you had no answer.

See - that's the problem with so many of Nando's die hard fans. They buy into Nando's propaganda that the Ferrari was a "dog" whilst the RBR was "dominant".

Yes, the RB8 was faster on one lap pace at the majority of those last races...but the Ferrari was very competitive in race trim and Renault cost Vettel 2 DNFs and then another 22 Grid spots in Abu Dhabi. And, the Red Bull pitstops and strategy were nothing as sharp as Ferrari's for Alonso.

But the Alonso fans want to hear none of it. They don't want to hear how absolutely razor sharp the Scuderia were at the tracks, how competitive the F2012 was in the races, how Alonso was boosted by Ferrari's subjugation of Massa...and that Massa's points haul - although stunted by having to be tail-gunner at 3 races - was still far higher than Webber's who, as we all know, was ALSO in a fight for the WDC until round 18 where he vowed to "race flat out" for himself.

I think its intellectual dishonesty to tell everyone that Alonso was disadvantaged. Massa was used to boost Alonso's points at a time when Massa in the Ferrari could have scored more points than Alonso had Ferrari told him to actually "race" to his and the F2012's capacity.

It doesn't do Alonso's fans any credit to cry about how poor the car was.


I had an answer, read it again. And your theory has nor basis since you decide to avoid Vettel points in the second part of the season when comparing both cars. Try to find a quote from someone in the paddock who denies my point of the RBR being faster. Good luck.


#92 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 9,282 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:04

Choke is far too strong a word when he did end up with 5 consecutive podiums, but I do think he had a slight dip in speed after his year-long brilliance, and I have seen this before (in Interlagos 2007). So it's perfectly legitimate to ask the question of whether this is a pattern, loss in speed when a championship's at stake. I can't quite figure out if it is, or if he just doesn't click with Interlagos very well.

2010 I wouldn't bring into this, it was a strategical blunder from Ferrari not himself, and I really don't think he had any chance of passing Petrov with the dirty air and lack of top speed.

#93 RayInTorontoCanada

RayInTorontoCanada
  • Member

  • 536 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 11 December 2012 - 13:36

I disagree that this is a reasonable thread.

Had the OP posted something along the lines of "how might Alonso have performed better in the final 5 races?" then that might have produced a more effective discussion.

...I agree with the calls elsewhere in this thread to close it as an official recognition that it is little other than an open invitation to trolling, dressed up (at great length) as a fraudulent interest in a "balanced discussion".


I disagree with you.

Often the paid journalists out there don't want to bring up these types of questions for fear of being black-listed by either a team or by a driver. In this case, a top, historical and fabled team and an Ace driver and former World Champion.

That, basically, leaves the likes of us normal folk in forums like these to ask the much tougher questions.

What is unacceptable is that the die hard fans of some drivers would go about muzzling free speech while other die hards would write:

80% of all the people who eat s**t on this topic don't have a clue about what they are talking about.


How classy!

I never said that Alonso wasn't "perfect". I suggested he lost a 40+ point lead in a car that was far more competitve and reliable that he or his fans would care to admit...and that he had a team and a teammate that was far more united and efficient (trackside) than anyone else's after the summer break...and, yet, he still lost the title whilst his teammate was proving that the car was capable of more. And, I suggest, Alonso either 'choked' or 'bottled it' or decided to be too conservative whilst subjugating Massa and hoping that Vettel's RBR would break down/DNF.

Later I pointed out how Massa blitzed title-contender Webber following the summer break. Now I will state that Red Bull and Ferrari scored about the same number of points following the summer break. You can go and calculate the numbers yourself.

In the end, I ask are we to be muzzled by you and other Nando fans if we are to pose questions?

I say NO!

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 11 December 2012 - 13:45.


#94 Group B

Group B
  • Member

  • 13,971 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 11 December 2012 - 13:42

No, he didn't choke.
But that Ferrari in race trim didn't seem to be as bad as he was claiming the whole season.
He even mentioned that in his speech at the FIA gala which I thought was pretty tasteless.
Enhancing his performance by downplaying the car.

Nevertheless, a very good season but not legendary.

:up:
Massa showed in the last few races that the Ferrari was not far off at all. Fred only needed to consistently extract 2 or 3 tenths more than Massa and he'd have been right in the mix, but he seemed to drop his level a touch at just the wrong time.

#95 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 11 December 2012 - 13:48

I disagree with you.

Often the paid journalists out there don't want to bring up these types of questions for fear of being black-listed by either a team or by a driver. In this case, a top, historical and fabled team and an Ace driver and former World Champion.

That, basically, leaves the likes of us normal folk in forums like these to ask the much tougher questions.

What is unacceptable is that the die hard fans of some drivers would go about muzzling free speech while other die hards would write:



How classy!

I never said that Alonso wasn't "perfect". I suggested he lost a 40+ point lead in a car that was far more competitve and reliable that he or his fans would care to admit...and that he had a team and a teammate that was far more united and efficient (trackside) than anyone else's after the summer break...and, yet, he still lost the title whilst his teammate was proving that the car was capable of more. And, I suggest, Alonso either 'choked' or 'bottled it' or decided to be too conservative whilst subjugating Massa and hoping that Vettel's RBR would break down/DNF.

Later I pointed out how Massa blitzed title-contender Webber following the summer break. Now I will state that Red Bull and Ferrari scored about the same number of points following the summer break. You can go and calculate the numbers yourself.

In the end, I ask are we to be muzzled by you and other Nando fans if we are to pose questions?

I say NO!


I think this sums it up pretty well. In the end, when it mattered most and when the pressure was on he was not only not as good as before but also overall inferior to Massa. His main competitor did also not outqualify his teammate in the last Q3s but he greatly outraced him. This was not the case for an Alonso under pressure.

All in all Alonsos season was great but certainly not quite the heroic one invented by some.

Edited by H2H, 11 December 2012 - 13:50.


#96 selespeed

selespeed
  • Member

  • 1,027 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 11 December 2012 - 13:49

:up:
Massa showed in the last few races that the Ferrari was not far off at all.



not far off???

in austin vettel and hamilton put 40+ seconds on ferraris goning for it all the time...not far off...common...

Edited by selespeed, 11 December 2012 - 13:49.


#97 Zava

Zava
  • Member

  • 4,743 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 11 December 2012 - 13:50

choked - no, faded - yes.

#98 Coops3

Coops3
  • Member

  • 1,449 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 11 December 2012 - 13:50

He went off the boil a bit in qualifying, but that's about it.

#99 Newtsche

Newtsche
  • Member

  • 370 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 11 December 2012 - 14:24

I think Spa changed him.



Advertisement

#100 BenettonB192

BenettonB192
  • Member

  • 828 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 11 December 2012 - 14:27

Don't think he choked. Choking would have been if he leads the last race with the championship in the pocket and then bins the cars due to nerves.