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Did Alonso "Choke" In The 2012 World Championship?


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#101 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 14:29

He went off the boil a bit in qualifying, but that's about it.

AND in race pace... don't forget Massa holding station/moving aside, more often than not in the final races...

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#102 TigersWood

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 14:37

I really hope you're not being serious. If you are, even the tiniest bit, then to put it simply, you're talking a load of absolute *******s.



Obviously I was joking, it's incredible the amount of stupid things that people can say about Fernando Alonso.

#103 Coops3

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 14:38

AND in race pace... don't forget Massa holding station/moving aside, more often than not in the final races...


Massa was great in the last few races, but Alonso did well too, if not as well.

#104 sailor

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 14:42

Don't think he choked. Choking would have been if he leads the last race with the championship in the pocket and then bins the cars due to nerves.


Which Vettel almost did.
Perhaps vettel choked momentarily :)

#105 PassWind

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 14:50

No, he didn't but he probably caused others including teams to......have a little choke.......

#106 wj_gibson

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 14:54

Points scored after Spa (an effective cut-off as both Alonso and Vettel had had one DNF each by then, neither of which was the driver's fault):

VET: 141
ALO: 114
HAM: 76
RAI: 74

Japan aside, is anyone seriously claiming that Alonso could have scored significantly more than that (given that he was on the podium at all of them bar Japan, given the form of the McLarens over the same period and the blatant car advantage of the RBR - i.e. scoring signifincatly more would have entailed winning some of these races, and there is no evidence that the Ferrari was a race-winning car at any of them, even Massa's pace was well off that of the RBR)? If so, at which races and in what way? Vague assertions about Massa's score compared with Webber are meaningless given their battles for 6ths, 7ths and 8ths.

Edited by wj_gibson, 11 December 2012 - 15:00.


#107 Zava

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:04

Points scored after Spa (an effective cut-off as both Alonso and Vettel had had one DNF each by then, neither of which was the driver's fault):

VET: 141
ALO: 114
HAM: 76
RAI: 74

Japan aside, is anyone seriously claiming that Alonso could have scored significantly more than that (given that he was on the podium at all of them bar Japan, given the form of the McLarens over the same period and the blatant car advantage of the RBR)? If so, at which races and in what way? Vague assertions about Massa's score compared with Webber are meaningless given their battles for 6ths, 7ths and 8ths.

you forgot to include Massa's 97 in the list, and the fact that he was faster but holding station behind Alonso in korea, he got a 'new gearbox' in austin but still came close to Alonso, and let him pass 2-3 times in interlagos, a race which he even could've won if he was not racing for Alonso's championship. if there was no need for Massa playing rear gunner for Alonso, and they are racing each other, Massa is at 97 +3 (korea) +3 (austin) +3 (+10? interlagos), while Alonso is at 114 -3 (korea) -3 (austin) -3 (interlagos), which equals 106 (113?) for Massa, 105 for Alonso.

#108 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:04

Points scored after Spa (an effective cut-off as both Alonso and Vettel had had one DNF each by then, neither of which was the driver's fault):

VET: 141
ALO: 114
HAM: 76
RAI: 74

Japan aside, is anyone seriously claiming that Alonso could have scored significantly more than that (given that he was on the podium at all of them bar Japan, given the form of the McLarens over the same period and the blatant car advantage of the RBR - i.e. scoring signifincatly more would have entailed winning some of these races, and there is no evidence that the Ferrari was a race-winning car at any of them, even Massa's pace was well off that of the RBR)? .


Why have you not added in Webber and Massa?

I said "since the Summer break", you've chosen "after Spa".

Anyway, I think it's telling when you throw in MAS and WEB.

RAI and HAM are much less relevant to the topic, in my opinion, than MAS and WEB because part of the equation is Ferrari and Red Bull and their cars and, also, that Webber too was fighting for the Champioship. He said going into round 18 that he'd drive "Flat Out" to win.

How many times have I had to post "Massa 97, Webber 55 since the summer break"? It speaks to this notion of "the blatent car advatage of the RBR" you write about.

Quite clear that you refuse to takle the issue of the Ferrari V RBR when it comes to Massa V Webber. Which is, typically, an Alonso-like trait: Big Up your own ability/Trash the car's capabilty.

Typical! :down:

And hideously intellectually deceitful! :down:

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 11 December 2012 - 15:09.


#109 SpaMaster

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:06

I wouldn't say he choked. But he certainly seemed to be under pressure. Agree with points you raise on Alonso being slower than Massa 3 out of the last 5 races. Even in Belgium he was already underperforming with such low grid slot and never seemed to have the pace.

So yes, he seemed to be underperforming in the later part of the season.

#110 wj_gibson

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:06

I'll simply repeat the question - in what way could Alonso have scored more points than he did at the remaining races (bar Japan)? Never mind what Massa was or wasn't doing, that's not important; in what way could Alonso have actually beaten Vettel in places like Singapore, Korea and Austin?

#111 yr

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:06

I wouldnt say he choked, but there is certainly interesting pattern going on. Alonso has been involved for title chase till the last race several times, but he never had won it when there was still pressure in last race, he has only won the title when he either wrapped it up with races to spare like in 2005 or when he had it easy in last race 2006. We have yet to see if he is capable of actually winning the tight fight in last race... god knows he has had many opportunities to do that, but hasnt done it yet. So, the evidence so far are suggesting he cant handle the pressure that well.

#112 SpaMaster

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:07

Without Alonso (note that I do not say Ferrari), this would be considered another season of Vettel dominance. Kimi in third place is 74 points (nearly three race wins) behind Vettel.

Without Vettel/Red Bull's late resurgence for those 3 races, Alonso would have walked with the championship.

#113 wj_gibson

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:09

Why have you not added in Webber and Massa?

I said "since the Summer break", you've chosen "after Spa".

Anyway, I think it's telling when you throw in MAS and WEB.

RAI and HAM are much less relevant to the topic, in my opinion, than MAS and WEB because part of the equation is Ferrari and Red Bull and their cars and, also, that Webber too was fighting for the Champioship. He said going into round 18 that he'd drive "Flat Out" to win.


The "summer break" is convenient for you as it allows you to cite Alonso's largest points margin, but he had of course finisnhed 1 more race than Vettel at that point.

By Spa, when both had had 1 DNF the gap betwene them was considerably less than 40 points.

Of course I omit Massa and Webber. These drivers were fighting mostly for 5ths to 9ths where you would expect a bigger points differential between cars finishing in relative close proximity (plus Webber disappeared for several races for some strange reason).

I ask again - how could Alonso have actively beaten Vettel in the races that Vettel won at the end of the year? How could he have scored a higher number of points (apart from Japan)? This is the question you should have asked in your initial thread title as it would focus the discussion on the relevant issue - whereas throwing the term "choked" in simply opens the door for various red herrings about the form of Mass and Webber that I fail to see the relevance of.

Edited by wj_gibson, 11 December 2012 - 15:14.


#114 yr

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:14

Without Alonso (note that I do not say Ferrari), this would be considered another season of Vettel dominance. Kimi in third place is 74 points (nearly three race wins) behind Vettel.


WDC table:

1 Vettel
2 Alonso
-
-
-
6 Webber
7 Massa

Can you see how irrelevant your point was? If not, let me help: without Vettel...



#115 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:15

Of course I omit Massa and Webber. These drivers were fighting mostly for 5ths to 9ths


Of course you would...because it doesn't jive with you "blatant car advantage of the RBR" thesis.

And I thought Webber was fighting for the WDC?!?!

According to the World's press - and according to Red Bull themselves - Webber was fighting for 1st in the World Championship going into round 18.

Webber was driving "Flat Out" for the 2012 World Drivers Championship as late as Abu Dhabi (round 18) so this idea that he was fighting for 5th to 9th is pure bumkum!!! :down:

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 11 December 2012 - 15:18.


#116 wj_gibson

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:20

Of course you would...because it doesn't jive with you "blatant car advantage of the RBR" thesis.

And I thought Webber was fighting for the WDC?!?!

According to the World's press - and according to Red Bull themselves - Webber was fighting for 1st in the World Championship going into round 18.

This idea that he was fighting for 5th to 9th is pure bumkum!!! :down:


"5th to 9th" was in reference to the actual races themselves.

For someone who has spent this thread complaining that no one engages with your points you have a remarkable inability to answer my core question, which I'll repat yet again:

What could Fernando Alonso have done differently in the final 8 races to increase his points tallyabove 114 points (apart from the obvious point of finishing in Japan, which I'll happily concede)? Over to you.

Edited by wj_gibson, 11 December 2012 - 15:21.


#117 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:23

By Spa, when both had had 1 DNF the gap betwene them was considerably less than 40 points.


First, you need to get your facts correct.

Are you sure that "by Spa" Vettel only "had 1 DNF"?

Are you, my friend?

Check again.

I'll help you out...Hint: Malaysia, Valencia.

#118 wj_gibson

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:28

Fine, throw in Malaysia.

Now - are you actually going to bother answering my question?

#119 RayInTorontoCanada

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:31

Fine, throw in Malaysia.

Now - are you actually going to bother answering my question?


Thank you! :)

I will...but i'm going into a work meeting.

I shall return and give you an answer. Part of it will be that the other Ferrari got 2nd at Suzuka and could have actually won Interlagos. One of these would have been more than enough to win the title.

But i'll get back to you. :cool:

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#120 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:40

No.

#121 maverick69

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:53

I think he ended up being quite affected by a heady mix of a Red Bull and Vettel onslaught, a team mate that figured out how to peddle a car again, and the pressure of two Latino nations expecting him to deliver.

So I'm not sure if I would personally say he "Choked" - but his luck and circumstance definatly took a turn....

#122 wj_gibson

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 15:54

Thank you! :)

I will...but i'm going into a work meeting.

I shall return and give you an answer. Part of it will be that the other Ferrari got 2nd at Suzuka and could have actually won Interlagos. One of these would have been more than enough to win the title.

But i'll get back to you. :cool:


To be fair I already said "apart from Japan".

I'm actually interested in taking it on a race-by-race basis, starting with Monza.

Edited by wj_gibson, 11 December 2012 - 15:55.


#123 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 16:02

No. Vettel and RBR just too strong.
Alonso did bellyache about the car way too much for me though. Ferrari trying every loophole in the book only solidified my dislike for them.

Edited by InSearchOfThe, 11 December 2012 - 19:56.


#124 TifosiUSA

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 16:06

Those 5 straight podiums came about because, in some of those races, Ferrari told Massa to back off...and, if you recall, he was grid dropped in your home country.

Laugh all you want but Alonso is 0 for 2 in title showdowns for the Scuderia.

Enjoy being second!

:down:

:lol:

5 podiums to close out the year in the 3rd best car. Amazing consistency, no mistakes. Yet he "choked."

Enjoy bitterly hating/trolling!






#125 wj_gibson

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 16:06

I should add that, ultimately, my take is that Vettel probably could have sown the title up earlier than he did - nothing to do with his late-season form, which was superb, more his mid-season during which I've always felt he rather under-performed a bit.

#126 motorhead

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 16:07

FA drove a great season, no-one can´t deny that. He seemed more relaxed in spring, no comments like "I have to fight against Newey" etc were made at that time. I think that given the situation he didn´t have a pressure becouse Ferrari was supposed to be a dog of a car with no possibility to win anyway. All of the sudden he had two won 2 GPs when McLaren and RBR had their misfortunes and was leading the championship.

When things got tighter he started commenting about "Newey", "how Ferrari is not good enough" and of course referring himself a samurai who is fighting against all odds - thing...and it only got worse towards the end of the season


#127 wj_gibson

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 16:08

FA drove a great season, no-one can´t deny that. He seemed more relaxed in spring, no comments like "I have to fight against Newey" etc were made at that time. I think that given the situation he didn´t have a pressure becouse Ferrari was supposed to be a dog of a car with no possibility to win anyway. All of the sudden he had two won 2 GPs when McLaren and RBR had their misfortunes and was leading the championship.

When things got tighter he started commenting about "Newey", "how Ferrari is not good enough" and of course referring himself a samurai who is fighting against all odds - thing...and it only got worse towards the end of the season


It's just elementary mind games. Nigel Roebuck has a slant on this in the current MotorSport that is eminently sensible.

#128 BackOnTop

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 16:11

And yet, since the summer break this is how Massa and Webber scored: Massa - 97 points - Webber - 55 points

If you stricktly look at the two drivers, how can you say the Ferrari was "a far worst car" than the Red Bull. In the same timeframe (i.e. after the summer break), Alonso scored 114.

Who here is willing to deny that Massa - on 97 - and Alonso - on 114 - wasn't an engineered result to maximize Alonso's points haul in the WDC?


.....illustrated that Massa blitzed Webber 97 to 55 after the summer break INSPITE of Massa being shit before whilst Webber was far from shit having run Vettel close in qually and having won 2 GPs, and INSPITE of Massa sacrificing his own points total in favor of Alonso's, you had no answer.

It doesn't do Alonso's fans any credit to cry about how poor the car was.

That is quite interesting stats

Massa matched &/or would have beaten Alonso since Japan till Brazil.

Well Alonso didn't choke, but he seems to lack the "final push" since a while now in the Final Races, which included 2007, 2010 & 2012. I guess if everything goes perfectly with other team mishaps continuing, he can be expected to put a challenge next year again. But he is a Ferrari driver, so that's generally expected of any Ferrari driver.

Alonso is not doing anything super-special with a approx million backed Ferrari car which Schumi, Kimi or Massa have not done before.

It can be argued that Massa lost the Championship with less points than even Alonso, and Massa won that pressure race. Alonso hasn't won the last 3 pressure races that would have crowned him the Champion.

It's normal to win wdc & wcc championships as a Ferrari driver, anything else is just an excuse.

Edited by BackOnTop, 11 December 2012 - 17:06.


#129 jk

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 18:43

Alonso did not choke but he did not do anything remarkable after Germany. He was just decent. Vettel on the other hand upped his game, crowned by drives at Abu Dhabi and Interlagos.
In the first half of the season Alonso was very good and crushed Massa. In the second half they where equal with Massa getting closer and closer to Alonso and outclass him at the final two GPs. With RB the drivers were equal in the beginning, but in the second half Vettel crushed Webber, which was necesary to fight for the WDC.

It is unfair to claim Alonso choked, but neither did he have a magic season throughout the year. He had individual great drives (as did Vettel), and while he overall had a good year it was not something we have never witnessed.

#130 BackOnTop

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 19:20

Vettel & Alonso since Hungary. Alonso did a decent consistent job.... not the type that wins you the World Championship. On the other hand, he lost it by a small margin in the last race.

Maybe if he was a bit more spectacular like Kimi in Abu Dhabi to snatch a win when Vettel started in the pits. Ferrari was a better developed car than Lotus who ran out of money, but Alonso got beaten even after the Safety car gave him a great chance to gain 7 more points. When looking at it from outside, Alonso was just hovering around the podium in a very good car, something like Mark Webber always coming 4th.

Sebastian Vettel
GP-------- Grid-- Race-- Total
Hungary- 3-- 4-- 122
Belgian- 10-- 2-- 140
Italian- 5-- 22-- 140
Singap- 3-- 1-- 165 -win
Japan- 1-- 1-- 190 -win
Korean- 2-- 1-- 215 -win
Indian- 1-- 1-- 240 -win
Abu DB- 24-- 3-- 255
Usa GP- 1-- 2-- 273
Brazili- 4-- 6-- 281


Fernando Alonso
GP--------- Grid-- Race-- Total
Hungarian- 6-- 5-- 164
Belgian- 5-- Ret 164
Italian - 10-- 3-- 179
Singap- 5-- 3-- 194
Japan- 6-- Ret 194
Korean- 4-- 3-- 209
Indian- 5-- 2-- 227
Abu Dh- 6-- 2-- 245
Usa Gp- 7-- 3-- 260
Brazil - 7-- 2-- 278

Edited by BackOnTop, 12 December 2012 - 05:34.


#131 packapoo

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:09

I think it would be fair to say that following the season ending result, he, (Alonso) would've coughed and spluttered a bit.
Probably Luca did too.
But I haven't read any reports of him actually choking.
Nor Luca either.
Pity.

#132 George Costanza

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:22

That's correct in my view as well: Fernando's 2012 is right up there with Ayrton's 1993. This is the wayhow true legends are born.



So is Michael's 1997 season, sans Jerez.

Edited by George Costanza, 12 December 2012 - 05:22.


#133 Rybo

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:40

Not at all 13 podiums out of 20 races should be commended. Blame McLaren and their shoddy reliability that allowed Seb to win 4 in a row.

#134 Claudiu

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:13

This thread is a big fat waster of time, haters will always hate(because they don't understand anything else), it's like Mark Twain said "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Conclusion, please guys(normal & balanced people around here) don't waste time in trying to argue with all the trolls that live around here ... you have better things to do.

#135 tifosiMac

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:16

No he didn't choke.
Alonso and Lewis were the best drivers all season and that was evident. If anything Alonso showed why many consider him the most complete driver on the current grid. I hate it when the term 'choke' is used by casual fans.

#136 wj_gibson

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:37

No he didn't choke.
Alonso and Lewis were the best drivers all season and that was evident. If anything Alonso showed why many consider him the most complete driver on the current grid. I hate it when the term 'choke' is used by casual fans.


Indeed.

When we use the term "choke" we implying a personal, psychological weakness on the part of the "choker" vis-a-vis (presumably) the one who didn't "choke".

It is also a means of identifying with ridiculous hyper-masculine individual qualities. I think there is a clear inference that a "choker" is less of a man than a "non-choker".

By extension, we are then implying that those who may have expressed admiration/support for the "choker" are themselves incapable of supporting the stronger candidate, and might themselves be less of a "man". Hence, such comments as "enjoy losing" that have cropped up in this thread, and which are directed at other forum members.

It is essentially, therefore, a means of bullying.

Edited by wj_gibson, 12 December 2012 - 10:39.


#137 LiJu914

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:48

Alonso and Lewis were the best drivers all season and that was evident.


...and some people even say, it was Lewis´ best ever season - which is quite interesting, because.....Even if we use that very theoretical mind experiment and deduct all points losses of VET/ALO/HAM, that were caused by collisions or mechanical issues - and that in a very very optimistic way regarding Lewis misfortunes*** -, then Hamilton would´ve gone into the title decider with a lead of "just" 9 points ahead of Vettel, Alonso being a distant third.
Considering, that Red Bull had no real pace advantage over the McLaren, i´m not so sure that it was that evident, that LH (and ALO) were distinctly the best drivers in 2012.



***
Hamilton: +9 in Bahrain, + 21 in Spain, +12 in Valencia, +15 in Germany, +15 in Belgium, +25 in Singapore, +11 in Korea, +25 in Abu Dhabi
Vettel: + 12 Malaysia, +25 Valencia, +10 Monza, +3 Abu Dhabi
(point deductions for positions, that the drivers wouldn´t have inherited in these cases, have been considered as well)


#138 tifosiMac

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:58

...and some people even say, it was Lewis´ best ever season - which is quite interesting, because.....Even if we use that very theoretical mind experiment and deduct all points losses of VET/ALO/HAM, that were caused by collisions or mechanical issues - and that in a very very optimistic way regarding Lewis misfortunes*** -, then Hamilton would´ve gone into the title decider with a lead of "just" 9 points ahead of Vettel, Alonso being a distant third.
Considering, that Red Bull had no real pace advantage over the McLaren, i´m not so sure that it was that evident, that LH (and ALO) were distinctly the best drivers in 2012.

At certain points in the season the McLaren was the fastest car in the field but your bolded statement is not entirely true. If the Red Bull had no pace advantage over the McLaren 'at any point in the season' then it wouldn't have secured pole positions, fastest laps, and dominant victories. It did just that at certain races and its safe to say that both teams enjoyed races where they arrived with the best car.

When you use the wording 'very very optimistic way regarding Lewis misfortunes' what exactly do you mean? Are you suggesting the botched pitstops, mechanical failures, and the two incidents where fellow drivers crashed into Lewis as errors by him?

#139 LiJu914

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:08

At certain points in the season the McLaren was the fastest car in the field but your bolded statement is not entirely true. If the Red Bull had no pace advantage over the McLaren 'at any point in the season' then it wouldn't have secured pole positions, fastest laps, and dominant victories. It did just that at certain races and its safe to say that both teams enjoyed races where they arrived with the best car.


Where did i say, that RB had no advantage over McLaren "at any point"? What i meant, was that RB had no advantage if we take the season as a whole (but also no disadvantage; for me both teams were pretty much even regarding their pace).

When you use the wording 'very very optimistic way regarding Lewis misfortunes' what exactly do you mean? Are you suggesting the botched pitstops, mechanical failures, and the two incidents where fellow drivers crashed into Lewis as errors by him?


Optimistic in terms of how many points Lewis would´ve collected otherwise (e.g. It´s quite optimistic that LH would´ve won in Spain as his race pace wasn´t that spectacular, but i still "gifted" him that win)

Edited by LiJu914, 12 December 2012 - 12:09.


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#140 tifosiMac

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:18

Where did i say, that RB had no advantage over McLaren "at any point"? What i meant, was that RB had no advantage if we take the season as a whole (but also no disadvantage; for me both teams were pretty much even regarding their pace).

I agree with the point regarding pace and I think what benefited Red Bull when they had the advantage was the ability to actually finish the races. McLaren dropped the ball with reliability and it cost them any chance of properly fighting for the championship IMO.

Optimistic in terms of how many points Lewis would´ve collected otherwise (e.g. It´s quite optimistic that LH would´ve won in Spain as his race pace wasn´t that spectacular, but i still "gifted" him that win)

We can only wonder how many points he would have collected but there is no denying he lost far too many due to problem out of his control.

#141 03011969

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:29

Alonso's 2012 season was incredible. The thread starter is just being a troll. Unfortunately he's being very well-fed.


Alonso and Vettel were the best drivers all season and that was evident.

Fixed that for you...

Edited by 3011969, 12 December 2012 - 12:31.


#142 DaddyCool

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:29

Points scored in the second half of the season (post-Germany):

Teams:

1. RBR 230 / 4 Retirements
2. Ferrari 223 / 2 Retirements
3. Mclaren 218 / 6 Retirements
4. Lotus 144 / 4 Retirements

I think the "xth best/fastest" car argument doesn't hold gorund, as it doesn't take into consideration strategy (qualy + race), trackside operations (pit stops), driver consistency, and car reliability, only the outright car pace.

While it is indeed true that Ferrari was often the 2-3-4th fastest car in terms of raw speed, they made up heck a lot of ground with the driver (Alonso), strategy (I can't really recall any mistakes in the second half of the season), pit stops and bulletproof reliability.

Therefore, considering that Massa was able to outpace Alonso in the last races, I think it's not unfair to conclude that Alonso did performed a bit worse than he was previously, though I wouldn't call it choking, that's for sure.



#143 tifosiMac

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:53

Fixed that for you...

Don't alter my posts please. By all means quote me and give your opinions but don't change the context of my posts to suit a view I don't share. I think it may also be against the rules on this board too, I could be wrong? Please take that as a polite request.

I believe Alonso and Hamilton were the two best drivers this season with Vettel very close indeed. I am entitled to that opinion and I don't see any unrealistic circumstances that contradict that point of view.

#144 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 13:22

Alonso did not choke but he did not do anything remarkable after Germany. He was just decent. Vettel on the other hand upped his game, crowned by drives at Abu Dhabi and Interlagos.

So are you saying Vettel choked at the beginning of the season?

#145 dhill39

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 13:35

Didn't see all the posts,but he didn't choke,up until spa,he had a decent lead and I think he would have carried that till the end.

#146 sailor

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 13:48

So are you saying Vettel choked at the beginning of the season?

choke by definition can only happen at season ends

#147 showtime

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 13:48

So are you saying Vettel choked at the beginning of the season?


I already asked that question but it was conveniently ignored. This is only another bashing thread.

#148 Jon83

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 13:50

Another negative thread to add to all the rest about Alonso.

Yawn.

#149 eronrules

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 13:53

Posted Image

#150 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 14:00

choke by definition can only happen at season ends

Nope, none of the definitions I'm looking at say that, sorry.