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Button v Perez - 2013


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#51 ermo

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 19:33

Checo has shown on several occasions that he can be very good at managing his tyres, while still retaining a respectable turn of speed. True, the Sauber was very gentle on the tyres, but the point still stands.

If Jenson is to beat Checo in '13, he will need to rely on more than just tyre whispering I think. JB's experience and the fact that he's well bedded in with McLaren will likely turn out to work in his favour, at least this season. Other than that, I'm reserving judgement until after the summer break in terms of qualifying and race pace, though I'll be surprised if Checo collects more points than Jenson in the first part of the year.

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#52 MP422

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 19:38

Agreed, though I don't really understand it. Some Lewis fans will be rooting for Sergio to "destroy" Jenson, even though that would reflect poorly on Lewis. They should really be rooting for the opposite if they're thinking about their man's reputation.

No problem with anything Sergio has said so far. He may be underestimating the pressure of driving for a top team somewhat, but McLaren has plenty of time to get him as ready as possible.

As for predictions, I'm expecting him to be solid but not really a match for Jenson on the points table (Button is a stealthy points gathering machine, after all). As for whether he surprises one way or the other, I'd say it's more likely for him to have a terrible season than a 2007-Lewis rookie-style season.



Does not quite work like that.

#53 trogggy

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 19:40

Does not quite work like that.

No, because some of them haven't thought it through properly.

#54 senna da silva

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 19:54

How many races will it take before Jenson and his engineers are studying Checo's telemetry to figure out why the team leader can't find speed or balance?

#55 PARAZAR

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 19:57

How many races will it take before Jenson and his engineers are studying Checo's telemetry to figure out why the team leader can't find speed or balance?


Is that a serious statement?

#56 senna da silva

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 20:01

Is that a serious statement?


Yup. The last time Button was a team leader they had to rely on Barrichello's feedback.  ;)

#57 trogggy

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 20:01

How many races will it take before Jenson and his engineers are studying Checo's telemetry...?


Right from the start I would have thought. And vice-versa.

#58 PARAZAR

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 20:05

Yup. The last time Button was a team leader they had to rely on Barrichello's feedback. ;)


Yet how many seasons did Rubens finish ahead of him? Do you really believe that Jenson with 12 years experience will count on Perez for set up? And I know this is because the engineers went back to Lewis set up during JBs problem stint. It's also happened the other way round you know. It's not exclusive to Jenson.

#59 P123

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 20:12

This is a funny posting, a parody of what Lewis fans said about Jenson, but a bunch of people seem to have taken it seriously.

I think Jenson will win it anyway.


Even funnier, because part of that supposed parody didn't come from a 'Lewis fan', and interestingly enough a quick scout of the oft shouted about 2010 topic will show just as many predicting a close battle as those making up the 'will be destroyed' brigade- a shame the extremes always win out on here. But I suppose it suits to constantly present it as if all Hamilton fans thought like that, as it helps maintain a justification for the constant sneering from certain folks about 'Hamilton fans'.

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#60 P123

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 20:13

Right from the start I would have thought. And vice-versa.


Yes, as the McLaren drivers have done in every race since who knows when.

#61 Rocket73

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 20:25

I think the big question mark over sergio's head is why did he race craft fall apart the moment he signed for McLaren? Before that he showed great race pace and tyre care...can he handle the pressure?

if he does i can see them being quite similar with jb winning in the end...i think even the most dedicated f1 fan has difficulty appreciating the factor the car has on pace...this is shown out in the massive underrating of jb from his honda years...all the drivers here are VERY close..



#62 kpchelsea

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 21:06

Checo is 3 years younger, yet he has achieved more than Hulk in both or their respective careers.

Remind me what Perez has won?

#63 tkulla

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 21:43

Remind me what Perez has won?


Exactly. I think some of the Hulk-mania we are seeing is a result of his strong second half of the season combined with his stellar results in lower formulas. Sergio's first half was as good but if you look at his junior career there's nothing special there at all. Whether that matters or not who knows, but Hulk has a Hamiltonesque junior career so a lot of people are expecting him to be great at some point.

Edited by tkulla, 13 December 2012 - 21:44.


#64 BillBald

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 21:50

Even funnier, because part of that supposed parody didn't come from a 'Lewis fan', and interestingly enough a quick scout of the oft shouted about 2010 topic will show just as many predicting a close battle as those making up the 'will be destroyed' brigade- a shame the extremes always win out on here. But I suppose it suits to constantly present it as if all Hamilton fans thought like that, as it helps maintain a justification for the constant sneering from certain folks about 'Hamilton fans'.


'Some' Lewis fans. :blush:

It annoys me when Jenson fans are all lumped together, so I shouldn't do the same.




#65 P123

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 23:08

'Some' Lewis fans. :blush:

It annoys me when Jenson fans are all lumped together, so I shouldn't do the same.


:up: Yep, it's annoying- and I should probably have PM'd you that message as it's way off topic!

Back to JB V Perez- I see JB has been defending SP against some of the criticism he has been receiving of late. Not much else to talk about whilst we await the start of winter testing (more like spring testing). Will Perez's McLaren conditioning programme involve a regualtion haircut, similar to Alonso's '07 version? :)



#66 Bloggsworth

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 23:17

Here we go again...

#67 Kingshark

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:16

Remind me what Perez has won?

I'm talking specifically in F1.

Perez has 3 podiums compared to Hulkenberg's none. despite being three years younger. You can argue that he choked when in the position of a victory in Malaysia, but Hulk's screw up in Brazil was far, far worse.

Edited by Kingshark, 14 December 2012 - 04:18.


#68 jjcale

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:20

:up: Yep, it's annoying- and I should probably have PM'd you that message as it's way off topic!

Back to JB V Perez- I see JB has been defending SP against some of the criticism he has been receiving of late. Not much else to talk about whilst we await the start of winter testing (more like spring testing). Will Perez's McLaren conditioning programme involve a regualtion haircut, similar to Alonso's '07 version? :)


Actually to be a Macca driver these days it seems you need to grow a beard ;)

#69 packapoo

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:40

Initially after announcement of his signing I thought 'mistake'.

I believe tho' notwithstanding his title aspirations, that he will more then acquit himself well against his often fragile teammate and team leader.
And at least his positive title outlook statement is many times better then the rather downbeat outlook his Sauber replacement took.

#70 Lights

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:42

I'm just gonna say that Perez perfectly placed himself as the underdog by driving a disastrous string of races since his McLaren announcement. I don't think he's a mistake however, I think there are plenty of youngsters that could shine in that McLaren if given the right support and momentum, and he's one of them. There's no proof Hulk would perform better next year at McLaren just because his 2012 season was more promising. As always, there must be countless of examples of why this isn't 1+1.

#71 selespeed

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:34

disastrous string of races since his McLaren announcement.



results were disastrous for one reason or another...races were ok

#72 Lights

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:46

results were disastrous for one reason or another...races were ok

It's not like I've been following all his races in detail, but what I do remember is that in the 2 races Kobayashi scored a heap of points, and thus Sauber had potential, Perez put himself out of the race with dumb errors. While for a youngster in a midfield team that's generally not a disaster, if you do that while driving for a team like McLaren you will get slammed down, so that's exactly what Perez has to work on.

#73 Anderis

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:33

Perez has 3 podiums compared to Hulkenberg's none. despite being three years younger. You can argue that he choked when in the position of a victory in Malaysia, but Hulk's screw up in Brazil was far, far worse.

I don't think either Hulkenberg or Perez chocked in the races you've mentioned. Both found themselves running for victory in cars that nobody expected to win due to their skill on wet circuit and good strategy calls. Both made a mistake when fighting for victory, Hulk with a bit worse outcome, but that's it. I still think you couldn't expect more than 5th from Force India car in Brazil. It was a car that was not developed for months, no way it was on par with front-running cars and Hulk was there only due to amazing effort. For me fighting for race win on merit with the car that not belongs to the front-runners and finishing 5th after making a mistake is better than solid but unspectacular race for 6th, or even 5th, which would be hardly underperforming with this car.

I don't think the number of podiums is a good benchmark. No matter how hard you try, you won't convince me that Sauber wasn't more capable car of scoring podiums on occassion than Force India. You can say Alonso is not a top driver because he didn't win any race in 2009. But it doesn't make much sense.

But there you have a point about age. Perez is still very young and he can show even better than what he did in 2012. I think the fact he is the driver from the market that McLaren can benefit from far more than from Germany (which has Vettel and Mercedes getting most of the attention) was not meaningless, but still Perez has shown he is capable of big things if he is allowed to develop himself further as a proper F1 driver. And you can't blame himself that he brings some marketing opportunities and McLaren that they want benefit from this. Nowadays, F1 driver is like a package of skills, sponsorship backing, marketing opportunities etc. and it's really good when you can get a driver who you can benefit from both on and outside the track.

I think in 2012 Hulkenberg>Perez, but when you consider Perez' potential and financial opportunities he brings, he may turn out to be a better overall package for the team. I don't think McLaren were short-sighted when they have chosen him.

Still doesn't help with the fact that I rate Hulkenberg higher and believe he will prove his doubters wrong when he gets the right car just like Vettel did. In fact, Vettel still have some doubters but 3 WDCs in row speak for themselves no matter how hard you want to discredit it.
But it doesn't change the fact that I also rate Perez as a driver who is worthy of getting a chance at the top team.

#74 MinT

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 19:52

I think Button has the edge next year - he knows the team, the car and is very experienced. His race performance is also almost always very good.

Perez may be quick but he doesnt have the experience and appears to have an issue handling pressure - his performance once he hit the headlines with the McLaren deal has dropped through the floor. He doesnt even seem to have the speed in quali which would be his main chancce to get one over on Button as it was Hamiltons.

Dont think there will be a huge advantage for Button though because he doesnt seem able to grind out a whole season consistantly without some real awful quali sessions.

#75 mich

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 22:44

I think Perez will not win against Button, he will be sometimes brilliant but usually rough.

At first, Sauber treated Perez better than Kobayashi because of huge Mexican money, but McLaren will not but treat Jenson better.
Second, Perez have to challenge a new team, on the other hand Jenson is familiar with the team.
Third, He had many easy mistakes, especially in the dog fights.

#76 Kingshark

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 20:46

At first, Sauber treated Perez better than Kobayashi because of huge Mexican money, but McLaren will not but treat Jenson better.

Source?


#77 jjcale

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:12

As there are no driver threads anymore I am not sure where to put this -

first interviews with SP and MW and lot of slightly creepy body language :lol:

Pleased to see SP in Macca gear ... I am starting to take to him already :D

... but I wish MW would stop trying to "get him to understand how much pressure there is when you drive for Maclaren" ):

Edited by jjcale, 11 January 2013 - 20:13.


#78 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:29

I see a lot of people giving the nod to Button because of 'experience'.

Frankly, I'm giving the nod to Button because I think he's just a better driver.

I rated(and still do to a degree) Perez when he first came into F1. I thought he could do some bright things. After his first season, my expectations were that he'd outperform Kobayashi in his 2nd year, which he didn't really do. I like Kobayashi and all, but I wouldn't stick him in the category of drivers like Button/Webber/Kimi and the like. If Perez cannot outperform Kobayashi, I dont think he stands much of a chance against Button. I know driver comparisons like this dont always work, but this is what my expectations are at this point. I'll be happy to admit I was wrong later on as I hope he does well, but I think, like many, we're about to see Kovalainen 2.0.

... but I wish MW would stop trying to "get him to understand how much pressure there is when you drive for Maclaren" ):

Whitmarsh probably has a lot at stake himself with this Perez signing.  ;)

Edited by Seanspeed, 11 January 2013 - 20:31.


#79 Mc_Silver

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 21:46

I can imagine a repeat of the Kimi/DC partnership. In 2002, DC scored more points than Kimi, who was still finding his feet at the team. But then Kimi had the upper hand in 2003-04. Though I generally rate Jenson a bit higher than DC and Sergio a bit lower than Kimi (at the moment) so it might not be such a dramatic difference by the time 2014 comes round.


That's what I exactly think mate good comment. :up: However, F1 will be very different from 2014 season and onwards with the big rule changes. Adaptable drivers will have the edge next season methinks

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#80 onewingedangel

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 22:00

Interesting to see that in the video the Mercedes logo is given equal prominance to the Vodafone and McLaren logos, despite McLaren now reportedly paying full whack for engines. Would have expected the Logo to become more subtle like other customer teams.

Expecting - Jenson to have the advantage in year 1 over Sergio, but Sergio is not going to be showed up.

#81 Longtimefan

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 22:05

I am expecting Jenson to get a lot more points, I'm sure Perez is talented but imo the pressure of being in a top team will get to him and it'll be another Heikki. but I may be surprised.


#82 Mc_Silver

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 22:05

I see a lot of people giving the nod to Button because of 'experience'.

Frankly, I'm giving the nod to Button because I think he's just a better driver.

I rated(and still do to a degree) Perez when he first came into F1. I thought he could do some bright things. After his first season, my expectations were that he'd outperform Kobayashi in his 2nd year, which he didn't really do. I like Kobayashi and all, but I wouldn't stick him in the category of drivers like Button/Webber/Kimi and the like. If Perez cannot outperform Kobayashi, I dont think he stands much of a chance against Button. I know driver comparisons like this dont always work, but this is what my expectations are at this point. I'll be happy to admit I was wrong later on as I hope he does well, but I think, like many, we're about to see Kovalainen 2.0.


Whitmarsh probably has a lot at stake himself with this Perez signing. ;)


I remember the same kind of comments when Kimi came to McLaren from Sauber in 2002 :yawnface:

#83 dhill39

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 22:21

Not a fan of Jenson,so i am hoping sergio performs well,and beat Jenson sometimes,driving for a team like Mclaren,the pressure is enormous and that pressure as broken a lot of drivers,so let's hope that he's one that doesn't crack.

#84 bourbon

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 22:25

I am a fan of Perez and I know he will do well. He has said that he is going to change his approach, so he may take some time warming up in the Macca, but eventually, this kid is going to rock. Although not a fan, I like Button, so no controversy.

Anyway, it will be so odd to seriously root for Macca again, eh... 3 cars at the sharp end this year, should be fantastic. :up:


#85 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 23:22

I remember the same kind of comments when Kimi came to McLaren from Sauber in 2002 :yawnface:

And that means what? That popular opinion was wrong? That a minority opinion was wrong? That this situation is exactly the same?

I feel like a guy who went the normal path through the junior categories and spent two full seasons in F1 before joining Mclaren is a bit of a different scenario to what Kimi did. I also think Button is a better driver than Coulthard was. It may turn out exactly the same, who knows, but its certainly not what I'm expecting and I dont see why I should. Again, I like Perez and think he's talented, but despite some podiums, I'd say his 2nd season was a bit of a disappointment as he was not able to outperform Kobayashi overall in my opinion. For me, that doesn't point to being a front-running talent.

We'll see. There's not much reason to argue about things at the moment, since its just speculation vs speculation.

#86 Mauseri

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 23:40

If either gets beaten clearly by the other, it will be death kiss..

Both of them cannot be real top drivers even if its even.

#87 Force Ten

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 00:25

Both of them cannot be real top drivers even if its even.

Indeed. Just like Lewis and Jenson possibly couldn't be.

#88 Kingshark

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 07:52

People would think better of Sato. Perez will get destroyed so badly that he will probably consider early retirement after 2013. Perez at Mclaren will be a disaster. Button will obliterate him nearly every race. Jenson is the real deal people.

Comment marked.

I'm going to have some good laughs in November.

#89 Force Ten

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 09:23

People would think better of Sato. Perez will get destroyed so badly that he will probably consider early retirement after 2013. Perez at Mclaren will be a disaster. Button will obliterate him nearly every race. Jenson is the real deal people.


Comment marked.

I'm going to have some good laughs in November.

Some sense of humor is sometimes a good thing to bring with you.
Also,
knowing
a little
bit of
history.

Otherwise you end up looking like an idiot.

#90 MinT

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 14:08

I do agree that Button has to outperform Perez or the writing is on the wall for him.

Perez I think is not in the same position - as a young driver as long as he does reasonably well he will not have his career damaged.

#91 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 14:56

Some sense of humor is sometimes a good thing to bring with you.
Also,
knowing
a little
bit of
history.

Otherwise you end up looking like an idiot.

Right. Kingshark, I recommend reading every topic since 1999 so you dont miss out on an inside joke and look foolish.

I do agree that Button has to outperform Perez or the writing is on the wall for him.

Perez I think is not in the same position - as a young driver as long as he does reasonably well he will not have his career damaged.

Kovalainen seems to be doing alright.

Edited by Seanspeed, 12 January 2013 - 14:56.


#92 Clatter

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 15:00

If either gets beaten clearly by the other, it will be death kiss..

Both of them cannot be real top drivers even if its even.


By that analogy neither LH or FA are top drivers.


#93 Burtros

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 15:08

My thoughts, and I want to write them down so I can see where I was at the end of the season!

Jenson should be comfortable this year with SP. He should beat him by min 45-50 points in the WDC
Qualifying should be very close but just in JB's favour at the year end
The race will be where JB makes the real difference over SP
There will be at least 2 occassions this year where SP turns up and just does a better job than JB
SP will show he is good enough for the McLaren seat - wether he is capable of filling anything more than a DC type role I dont know.
SP will win a race this year

Those are my thoughts. I'm not as clear how this partnership will work out as I was back in 2010 when JB joined Macca. I was close, but didnt expect JB to be as strong as he was in the end - therefore I am assuming he'll do better than my gut instinct tells me this time.

Its a massive year for Jenson, Sergio and Whitmarsh. The pressure is going to be HUGE. I hope that doesnt impact their success, although I think they will benefit from the fact the Hamilton circus wont be around anymore.



#94 Force Ten

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 20:14

Right. Kingshark, I recommend reading every topic since 1999 so you dont miss out on an inside joke and look foolish.

Borhering to read exactly TWO posts further to the one he was replying to, you know, he would sorta have gotten the hint. Then again, why bother to read when you can fly in a month later and start wildly posting around?

#95 pinkypants

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 20:46

I do agree that Button has to outperform Perez or the writing is on the wall for him.

Perez I think is not in the same position - as a young driver as long as he does reasonably well he will not have his career damaged.


:up:

High stakes stuff :)

#96 MirNyet

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 20:48

What to say, looking at some of the comments in this thread there are going to be some sad faces come the end of the year, Perez has clearly been brought in to be a number two to Button, McLaren while it wasn't Hamlitons team when Button joined is now clearly Button's team. All talk in the press is about Button, not Perez for next years title - even McLaren talk down Perez's year stating that he is 'young'. If Perez does get the better of Button I am expecting a radio'd 'Jenson is faster than you' as this really is McLarens last real chance of making Button WDC - all the balls go back into the air for 2014 so it is this year or never. While I am far from a Button fan I expect Button to show a very clean pair of heels to Perez - while I would not go as far as a 'Tonking' as I don't think Button is capable of Tonking anyone - he is going to be comfortable with Perez and is going to easily beat him. A lot of the hype around Perez I personally believe is due to James Key - and the Sauber car which is/was a lot better than it was shown to be. Like the Lotus it clicked with the tires and allowed for the drivers to operate well outside of their skill levels later into the races. For the first 6/8 races of next year I am fully expecting Perez to end up playing with the walls/gravel traps as he doesn't appear to be able to handle the pressure of being at the sharp end of the grid - added to that - he is not going to be given the huge amounts of love at McLaren which he had at Sauber - in a Sauber he was golden balls - at McLaren he is simply the other driver to Button. Depending on his character, that could produce issues - or it could simply bounce off him - looking at some of his comments last year I expect him to whine - but you never know.

Anyway, as I have said before, I personally think this the weakest pairing in the top teams, as a McLaren fan, I couldn't really care about either of them and I am really not expecting anything from this year - just going to watch and see what happens - you never know, they could string a WCC between them if the team gets its act together.

#97 pinkypants

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 20:57

Not fussed on either driver but I would definitely be happy with a McLaren WCC :)

#98 MirNyet

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 21:02

Not fussed on either driver but I would definitely be happy with a McLaren WCC :)


Yep - pretty much sums up my feelings.

#99 Mauseri

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 21:13

By that analogy neither LH or FA are top drivers.

Or maybe they both are? In my opinion Lewis showed more than Jenson at their McLaren time together. That's why.

Ok maybe Button can be a top driver, but not toptop (in my opinion), despite of creating a poll some years ago wether Aonso is really more top driver than Button :)

But if he can challenge genuinely for the champinship I may need to reconsider that again. Or maybe just admit that he is a top driver but not average or toptop :drunk:

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#100 Mc_Silver

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 21:22

Or maybe they both are? In my opinion Lewis showed more than Jenson at their McLaren time together. That's why.

Ok maybe Button can be a top driver, but not toptop (in my opinion), despite of creating a poll some years ago wether Aonso is really more top driver than Button :)

But if he can challenge genuinely for the champinship I may need to reconsider that again. Or maybe just admit that he is a top driver but not average or toptop :drunk:


Toptop :lol: