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Button v Perez - 2013


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#1801 bourbon

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 06:40

Again, way too much reading into it. Of course subconsciously Jenson does believe himself to be the senior and superior driver. No doubt about that, and in fact Whitmarsh and Michael bang on about that very thing every second interview. Also Jenson did say along the lines of "he hit me up the back" and followed it up with "calm him down". Of course he wanted the team to tell Checo to stop fighting so hard.

Look at Vettel in Malaysia with "get him out of the way" about Webber. Those words, and more importantly his tone, was utterly dismissive that he may as well replaced "him" with "cucumber". Even Nico in the same race said to Brawn quite dismissively that he "can go much faster", "he's too slow" than Hamilton.

Jenson's behaviour in the car, in the heat of battle, was no surprise. Nor does it need to be analysed to death. His Sky interview was far more embarrassing for him.


Yeah but what they say is less important than the facts we have at hand. You, me Jenson and the wall all knew Macca wasn't going to heed Jenson's command - just as Vettel knew the team wasn't going to tell Mark to get anywhere - and Nico knew he was fighting a losing battle from his first plea.

The point is, we can't pretend Jenson believed that Macca was going to change its entire philosophy in the heat of the moment...

He was just a adrenaline rushed driver, full of demands he knew would never be heeded. Happens every Sunday somewhere along the grid...

Also, how did Button embarrass himself in the interview afterward? I thought it was funny. I mean, as a Checo fan, I thought Button forgot a few of his own wrongs - but I had no expectation that he would stand there admitting them. He was just making us laugh... He knows we know you don't run a driver off the road - especially his teammate. Checo too knows he should not crash - especially into his teammate - but in his interview, I didn't expect him to discuss it, and he didn't. No biggie.

Edited by bourbon, 03 May 2013 - 06:40.


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#1802 Zakalwe

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:34

I believe there is a reasonable and perhaps (so far) unspoken understanding that in light of Checo's inexperience both ontrack and within the team in comparison to JB, he would be a defacto No.2 even though the team have no intentions to definitively tell each driver where they stand (like Ferrrari or even RB etc.). However, the McLaren bosses would be foolish not to let Checo have a good bite at JB and see how he stacks up, which he seemingly did last race.
Now it would have been equally foolish to tell JB, a champion and race winner at the team to stand down and let Checo through, or tell the young charge who was driving, for the first time at McLaren with confidence, to back off his slower teammate (thus the positive message).

I think you're spot on with the team expectation of "hold their own and get on with it", otherwise the team would only be a very, very expensive creche/playboy club. The same applies to Checo ofcourse.


I haven't seen McLaren adopt a Number 2/Number 1 attitude towards drivers in recent years (whether or not it is 'defacto', as you say, and regardless of the relative experience of the incoming vs. incumbent drivers).
As I mentioned in my post, looking back at recent McLaren driver pairings (Alonso vs. Hamilton, Hamilton vs. Button spring to mind), the team seem to have to have done no 'favours’ to the existing driver, regardless of their relative experience/merits. Alonso vs. Hamilton in 2007 stands out, with a 2 x WDC vs. 1st season rookie driver. In particular the 2007 Hungarian GP fiasco and the fall-out associated with that particular spat.

A number of fans on the forums have in the past complained about Alonso's treatment by McLaren in 2007, and of Hamilton's treatment by McLaren vs. Button in 2010-2012 (very subjectively and based on hearsay mostly) with conspiracy theories aplenty about McLaren 'backing' the new driver over the existing one (many toys have been ejected from many prams over this! :drunk: ).

But invariably, I personally don't believe a Number 2/Number 1 attitude towards drivers exists in theory or practice from McLaren, to their detriment sometimes as I'm sure they could have achieved a hell of a lot more over recent years if they had imposed this kind of structure. Although I don't support McLaren as a team, I both admire and appreciate this refreshing attitude towards racing! It certainly delivers on entertainment value!

But what really irks me after Bahrain is why JB is surprised at current state of affairs!! And, regardless of the exact words he used in his communications to the team, JB's tone cannot be mistaken (surprise, disbelief, outrage, anger... delete as appropriate).
It just strikes me that JB built his cosy little nest at McLaren and can't comprehend why the team isn't backing him, as you said, as the "defacto No.1"! Does he think he somehow deserves different treatment to what Alonso received when Hamilton came into the team (Remember 2 x WDC vs. rookie driver) or the support and patience JB himself enjoyed from the team (think "setup issues") in recent years??!


#1803 speng

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:53

I haven't seen McLaren adopt a Number 2/Number 1 attitude towards drivers in recent years (whether or not it is 'defacto', as you say, and regardless of the relative experience of the incoming vs. incumbent drivers).
As I mentioned in my post, looking back at recent McLaren driver pairings (Alonso vs. Hamilton, Hamilton vs. Button spring to mind), the team seem to have to have done no 'favours’ to the existing driver, regardless of their relative experience/merits. Alonso vs. Hamilton in 2007 stands out, with a 2 x WDC vs. 1st season rookie driver. In particular the 2007 Hungarian GP fiasco and the fall-out associated with that particular spat.

A number of fans on the forums have in the past complained about Alonso's treatment by McLaren in 2007, and of Hamilton's treatment by McLaren vs. Button in 2010-2012 (very subjectively and based on hearsay mostly) with conspiracy theories aplenty about McLaren 'backing' the new driver over the existing one (many toys have been ejected from many prams over this! :drunk: ).

But invariably, I personally don't believe a Number 2/Number 1 attitude towards drivers exists in theory or practice from McLaren, to their detriment sometimes as I'm sure they could have achieved a hell of a lot more over recent years if they had imposed this kind of structure. Although I don't support McLaren as a team, I both admire and appreciate this refreshing attitude towards racing! It certainly delivers on entertainment value!

But what really irks me after Bahrain is why JB is surprised at current state of affairs!! And, regardless of the exact words he used in his communications to the team, JB's tone cannot be mistaken (surprise, disbelief, outrage, anger... delete as appropriate).
It just strikes me that JB built his cosy little nest at McLaren and can't comprehend why the team isn't backing him, as you said, as the "defacto No.1"! Does he think he somehow deserves different treatment to what Alonso received when Hamilton came into the team (Remember 2 x WDC vs. rookie driver) or the support and patience JB himself enjoyed from the team (think "setup issues") in recent years??!

:up: Could not agree more.

#1804 boldhakka

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 13:27

But what really irks me after Bahrain is why JB is surprised at current state of affairs!! And, regardless of the exact words he used in his communications to the team, JB's tone cannot be mistaken (surprise, disbelief, outrage, anger... delete as appropriate).
It just strikes me that JB built his cosy little nest at McLaren and can't comprehend why the team isn't backing him, as you said, as the "defacto No.1"! Does he think he somehow deserves different treatment to what Alonso received when Hamilton came into the team (Remember 2 x WDC vs. rookie driver) or the support and patience JB himself enjoyed from the team (think "setup issues") in recent years??!


No harm in asking for #1 status. You won't get it unless you ask for it.

#1805 robefc

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 13:31

But what really irks me after Bahrain is why JB is surprised at current state of affairs!! And, regardless of the exact words he used in his communications to the team, JB's tone cannot be mistaken (surprise, disbelief, outrage, anger... delete as appropriate).
It just strikes me that JB built his cosy little nest at McLaren and can't comprehend why the team isn't backing him, as you said, as the "defacto No.1"! Does he think he somehow deserves different treatment to what Alonso received when Hamilton came into the team (Remember 2 x WDC vs. rookie driver) or the support and patience JB himself enjoyed from the team (think "setup issues") in recent years??!


My feeling from his comments on the radio and post race was simply that, rightly or wrongly, he was unhappy with the way perez drove - hitting him in the rear, banging wheels - and it had nothing to do with some perceived number one status or anything like that.


#1806 Zakalwe

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 13:37

No harm in asking for #1 status. You won't get it unless you ask for it.


Agreed. But there is a world of difference between asking for #1 status and expecting/demanding it. Look where that attitude got Alonso back in 2007!

I don't entirely agree with some of the posters recently who suggested that JB's radio messages lacked 'respect'. IMO, it's waaay too subjective to try and analyse what is 'respectful' and what is not.

But I'm sorry, IMO JB's tone in his radio communications at Bahrain were not made in a "Could you guys please..." way, but more of "Come on guys, do it now, sort it out!" demand/instruction.

#1807 Force Ten

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 13:39

But I'm sorry, IMO JB's tone in his radio communications at Bahrain were not made in a "Could you guys please..." way, but more of "Come on guys, do it now, sort it out!" demand/instruction.


Totally agree with you and disagree with robefc. I'ts plainly obvious to even the dimmest amongst ourselves simply by listening to his tone of voice in the radio communications that not only did he, right there and then, demanded the unequivocal number one status in the team as a race car driver, but he was also giving a clear demand to have right to first choice at the breakfast buffet table every single time. It is fact.

Edited by Force Ten, 03 May 2013 - 13:46.


#1808 ElTope

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 14:16

What do you guys think would have caused more comments on this board. What happened or if McLaren had asked Checo to hold position? My question may be trivial or stupid, but I think it is not since it defines F1 as it is now days with all this communication excess.

#1809 Zakalwe

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 15:38

What do you guys think would have caused more comments on this board. What happened or if McLaren had asked Checo to hold position? My question may be trivial or stupid, but I think it is not since it defines F1 as it is now days with all this communication excess.


Well, probably the same imo. More on one hand because it would be out of Character for McLaren, esp after a everything they have said recently about team orders. Less on the other hand because Perez, I would guess, has a smaller fan-base than JB so fewer peeps to be upset.

#1810 Fox1

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 15:58

What do you guys think would have caused more comments on this board. What happened or if McLaren had asked Checo to hold position? My question may be trivial or stupid, but I think it is not since it defines F1 as it is now days with all this communication excess.

Comments on this board wouldn't have mattered, OTOH comments from Carlos Slim and company probably would have mattered....to McLaren. I think the reason this has been such an active discussion is because of the (perceived) hypocrisy of Jenson and the arguments of those who defend him.

It would have been interesting if the pit response to JB asking to "call it" would have been "move over and let Checo through."

#1811 zack1994

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 16:42

My feeling from his comments on the radio and post race was simply that, rightly or wrongly, he was unhappy with the way perez drove - hitting him in the rear, banging wheels - and it had nothing to do with some perceived number one status or anything like that.

Completely agree

#1812 Zakalwe

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 17:31

Completely agree


Fair enough. If one supports a particular driver, they are more than likely to interpret the situation in whatever paints them in the best possible light. I have been 'guilty' of that in relation to my favourite drivers in the past. :)

As a relative neutral in the Button vs Perez debate though, I disagree with this assessment and thought it was pretty obvious during the race, hence JB feeling the need to justify/ qualify his comments after the race. We didn't see Perez jumping to do the same, did we?

Edited by Zakalwe, 03 May 2013 - 17:32.


#1813 zack1994

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 19:46

Fair enough. If one supports a particular driver, they are more than likely to interpret the situation in whatever paints them in the best possible light. I have been 'guilty' of that in relation to my favourite drivers in the past. :)

As a relative neutral in the Button vs Perez debate though, I disagree with this assessment and thought it was pretty obvious during the race, hence JB feeling the need to justify/ qualify his comments after the race. We didn't see Perez jumping to do the same, did we?

I just don't think its very likely that a driver who has never asked for team orders and has said he doesn't want them, then decides he wants team orders and of course the evidence that jenson actually wanted team orders isn't there.

#1814 senna da silva

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 20:26

I wonder how Martin feels having his interview hijacked? I doubt Button would've intervened had it been Ron conducting the interview.

#1815 FastnLoud

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 21:08

I wonder how Martin feels having his interview hijacked? I doubt Button would've intervened had it been Ron conducting the interview.


Did you not watch the Interview? Martin nearly went in for the kiss on JB, he loved Jenson being there. :p

#1816 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 22:10

I left this thread alone as I couldnt find anything positive for Button in his actions during and after the race. Not so for McLaren and Sergio both of whom have gained.

However I am starting to feel that Jenson is protesting too much, he is just making it worse for himself. Now its the medias fault the incident is still raging? because of a wrong use of team radio by the media?

Careful with the media Jenson, they are your biggest supporters up to now

Maybe he should take a leaf out of Kimis, or even Lewis', would they still be protesting and finding excuses 2 weeks after the event?

#1817 robefc

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 23:09

Fair enough. If one supports a particular driver, they are more than likely to interpret the situation in whatever paints them in the best possible light. I have been 'guilty' of that in relation to my favourite drivers in the past. :)

As a relative neutral in the Button vs Perez debate though, I disagree with this assessment and thought it was pretty obvious during the race, hence JB feeling the need to justify/ qualify his comments after the race. We didn't see Perez jumping to do the same, did we?


Nice way of inferring your opinion is worth more than Zack's because of his supposed bias and your supposed neutrality but the opinion he was agreeing with was a Lewis fan's.


#1818 Lazy

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 23:14

Fair enough. If one supports a particular driver, they are more than likely to interpret the situation in whatever paints them in the best possible light.

Out of interest, who do you think robefc supports?
Edit: oh, hi Rob :)

Edited by Lazy, 03 May 2013 - 23:18.


#1819 Lazy

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 23:15

Maybe he should take a leaf out of Kimis, or even Lewis', would they still be protesting and finding excuses 2 weeks after the event?

Is JB still talking about it? I haven't heard anything.


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#1820 robefc

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 01:32

Out of interest, who do you think robefc supports?
Edit: oh, hi Rob :)


Haha, hi! :)

Is JB still talking about it? I haven't heard anything.


He was on mon/tue in fairness

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/107111

#1821 Zakalwe

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 08:10

Nice way of inferring your opinion is worth more than Zack's because of his supposed bias and your supposed neutrality but the opinion he was agreeing with was a Lewis fan's.


Well, I thought that's what these forums were all about, to discuss and argue and convince that one's opinion is more accurate than someone else's. But I wouldn't say that my opinion is 'worth' more than anyone else's. :up: :kiss:

Didn't know you aren't a JB fan, so am surprised at your pov. Your original post stated that JB's comments during the race were only because he was unhappy about the agressive racing going on, and that they had nothing to do with team orders or perceived No. 1 status.

What about JB's comments and interviews after the race? Was the purpose for making a point to go on every interview and analysis discussion possible, even those that he wasn't supposed to be on, like his boss's interview for example, that was all to make a point about agressive racing and no other agenda? If so, that was a spectacular own goal, as JB was very agressive too, maybe not as much as Perez, but still pretty hard.

I would say that JB's agenda is very obvious and clear. He wants to be seen and treated as No.1 driver at McLaren. That doesn't necessarily mean team orders to let pass or hold station, it could be shown in preferential strategy, better parts, first choice at pit stops, who knows!

The thing is see, I don't have an issue with any of that. It's worked well for the likes of Alonso and Vettell so far, and why wouldn't any driver want that kind of treatment.

It's just that it's never going to happen for JB at McLaren. It's just not how McLaren operate. If they didn't do it for Alonso over Hamilton, or for Hamilton over Button, they sure as hell aren't going to do it for Button over Perez. And everything that JB has said since Bahrain doesn't strike me as him appreciating the situation and getting on with it.

Just my opinion of course, and not worth more than anyone else's. :D

Edited by Zakalwe, 04 May 2013 - 08:49.


#1822 Lazy

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:07

Didn't know you aren't a JB fan, so am surprised at your pov.

Yeah, Rob has the remarkable ability to be a fan of Lewis whilst not necessarily seeing the hand of Satan in everything JB does.

Having just recently seen the interview, I'm really struggling to see what all the angst is about. For me it was good to see that they could have a sense of humour about it so soon after the event. It would seem to me that you must have a distorted perception to see so much negativity in it tbh.

Edit for clarity: The you is a general you and not directed at you personally.

Edited by Lazy, 04 May 2013 - 09:59.


#1823 Zakalwe

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:30

Yeah, Rob has the remarkable ability to be a fan of Lewis whilst not necessarily seeing the hand of Satan in everything JB does.

Having just recently seen the interview, I'm really struggling to see what all the angst is about. For me it was good to see that they could have a sense of humour about it so soon after the event. It would seem to me that you must have a distorted perception to see so much negativity in it tbh.


Hi Lazy. It's not negativity I see, or 'the hand of Satan' as you say (quality line btw). It's (again, my pov, not fact) annoyance on my part at JB's attitude that he should be considered/assumed he would be No. 1 at McLaren. Why??? What does he have or what has he delivered for McLaren that Alonso or Hamilton had or didn't deliver that would make McLaren treat him differently??

I just want JB to get on with it and prove his detractors wrong, as a racing driver should, on track. Not via the medium of radio and tv interviews, which he then subsequently complains about.

Btw, although I don't support Jenson, I have a huge amount of respect for him after taking on Hamilton and running such a close battle over three years. Plus, I would pay good money to watch JB as the next Brundle or Coulthard when he eventually retires. Just don't like his attitude at/since Bahrain.

Edited by Zakalwe, 04 May 2013 - 09:39.


#1824 Lazy

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:57

It's (again, my pov, not fact) annoyance on my part at JB's attitude that he should be considered/assumed he would be No. 1 at McLaren. Why??? What does he have or what has he delivered for McLaren that Alonso or Hamilton had or didn't deliver that would make McLaren treat him differently??

I don't see it like that tbh, I think a lot of things, culminating in being hit, caused JB to lose his cool a bit, uncharacteristically. I don't really see any demands for No.1 status but I do think he was a little surprised to have Checo up his arse after leaving him behind so much in the previous races.

I think it's just a case of a driver letting his emotions get the better of him whilst pumped with adrenaline, nothing more sinister than that.

#1825 Zakalwe

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:21

I don't see it like that tbh, I think a lot of things, culminating in being hit, caused JB to lose his cool a bit, uncharacteristically. I don't really see any demands for No.1 status but I do think he was a little surprised to have Checo up his arse after leaving him behind so much in the previous races.

I think it's just a case of a driver letting his emotions get the better of him whilst pumped with adrenaline, nothing more sinister than that.


Ok, let's agree to disagree on the reasons and intent. Btw, even if JB was wanting/demanding No.1 status, I don't see that as sinister, maybe naive or (if I was feeling particularly harsh) a touch arrogant. I actually think that running a team with clearly defined number 1/2 setup is the way to go for the best results. It's just not the McLaren way, nor do I think it will be changing anytime soon.

#1826 robefc

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:40

Well, I thought that's what these forums were all about, to discuss and argue and convince that one's opinion is more accurate than someone else's. But I wouldn't say that my opinion is 'worth' more than anyone else's. :up: :kiss:

Just my opinion of course, and not worth more than anyone else's. :D


:lol: at the bolded and :up: to the rest :)

What about JB's comments and interviews after the race? Was the purpose for making a point to go on every interview and analysis discussion possible, even those that he wasn't supposed to be on, like his boss's interview for example, that was all to make a point about agressive racing and no other agenda? If so, that was a spectacular own goal, as JB was very agressive too, maybe not as much as Perez, but still pretty hard.

I would say that JB's agenda is very obvious and clear. He wants to be seen and treated as No.1 driver at McLaren. That doesn't necessarily mean team orders to let pass or hold station, it could be shown in preferential strategy, better parts, first choice at pit stops, who knows!


Well this was my original reaction to JB's interview with MW

Really? I'm loving Jenson, particularly jokingly taking MW to task for telling Perez to toughen up.

Maybe I wouldn't like the cosy relationship so much if Lewis was still there.

I think JB's a top bloke though (out of the car!)

Top notch from sky having the analysis with JB and MW there too.


...so clearly I didn't think much negatively about it at all. I do think he realised he may have gone a little overboard in his post race interviews but nothing more than that and, as previously stated, I think those interviews and his radio messages were a direct result of being unhappy with how Perez was driving.


I think it's just a case of a driver letting his emotions get the better of him whilst pumped with adrenaline, nothing more sinister than that.


:up:

Edited by robefc, 04 May 2013 - 11:42.


#1827 speng

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 12:32

I don't see it like that tbh, I think a lot of things, culminating in being hit, caused JB to lose his cool a bit, uncharacteristically. I don't really see any demands for No.1 status but I do think he was a little surprised to have Checo up his arse after leaving him behind so much in the previous races.

I think it's just a case of a driver letting his emotions get the better of him whilst pumped with adrenaline, nothing more sinister than that.

this does happen but also your true self shows under pressure, it is easy to be nice when things are going well.


#1828 ZooL

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 14:51

I think it's just a case of a driver letting his emotions get the better of him whilst pumped with adrenaline, nothing more sinister than that.

I suppose the polemics of his interview were not sinister either to you, which was after the race.

Still, I don't think Hill and Davidson are as easily fooled as was clear from their reactions.

#1829 ZooL

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 15:01

If the rest of your predictions are anything to go by, there's good times round the corner for McLaren.

Delusional.

I predict the combination of Button, Whitmarsh and Michaels, will not win McLaren a championship.

And if they do I'll eat my hat.

But first things first, Button has yet to sustain a genuine challenge for the WDC in a McLaren. He has big boots to fill, with McLaren historically always having a top 3 driver in F1 on their books.

For McLaren's sake I hope Button charges them forward and galvanises the engineers to stay at McLaren rather than head for the exit. He has to become the focal point of the team, give the staff something to believe in.

Because if the staff don't believe...

Edited by ZooL, 04 May 2013 - 15:02.


#1830 BillBald

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 19:43

The weak point for the team is the pitwall.

I can't see McLaren achieving success unless they poach someone from another team.

They prefer to grow the talent in-house, but who are the guys going to learn from? it seems that they don't have anyone who knows what they are doing in terms of race strategy, timing of pitstops etc.

They have the engineers, and they have the drivers, but if points continue to be thrown away, they won't win anything other than the odd race.




#1831 robefc

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 20:08

The weak point for the team is the pitwall.

I can't see McLaren achieving success unless they poach someone from another team.

They prefer to grow the talent in-house, but who are the guys going to learn from? it seems that they don't have anyone who knows what they are doing in terms of race strategy, timing of pitstops etc.

They have the engineers, and they have the drivers, but if points continue to be thrown away, they won't win anything other than the odd race.


I'm not really sure whether to raise this but did Button not get a fair bit of credit for strategy decisions over the last 3 years whilst Lewis was criticised for being too reliant on the team?
Is it not double standards to then criticise the team for strategy (not sure if that applies to you but I'm speaking generally)?

#1832 Force Ten

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 00:01

I'm not really sure whether to raise this but did Button not get a fair bit of credit for strategy decisions over the last 3 years whilst Lewis was criticised for being too reliant on the team?
Is it not double standards to then criticise the team for strategy (not sure if that applies to you but I'm speaking generally)?

The "Button got credit" thing was about 1,5 races per season and especially when he, with his keen sense of "balance", guessed most correctly of all the drivers when to pit for different tyres. Of course, as everything in F1 is lopsided towards "the drivers are all that there is in F1" type of thinking, more in the press than in teams and infinitely more in boards than in press, every such thing gets mentioned allot, and the driver responsible of anything or even when he is perceived as responsible in anything is either god or a useless w****r. However, you still have 18 and a half races to navigate where you are totally reliant on strategic decisions from the pitwall. Drivers aren't all that able to think strategically, they don't have enough data. What Button has been stronger is big picture thinking, saving tyres early in the stint and banging quick laps later. The critique for Lewis was mostly that he drove bang bang bang fastest laps early in the stint and sometimes it burned his tyres comparatively earlier. Was much better in that regard in 2012 though.

#1833 BillBald

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 00:53

I'm not really sure whether to raise this but did Button not get a fair bit of credit for strategy decisions over the last 3 years whilst Lewis was criticised for being too reliant on the team?
Is it not double standards to then criticise the team for strategy (not sure if that applies to you but I'm speaking generally)?


In dry races, the driver can't make strategy calls, they simply don't have enough info. In fact, even if a driver says he needs fresh tyres, the team should not necessarily agree to that, although they should take it into account.

It's not simply a matter of changing your tyres when they start to go off, there are other implications such as whether you will come out of the pits into traffic, the total no. of pitstops you think needs to be made etc. And of course, there's the undercut when you are fighting closely with another car. And there's often a decision to be made about who you should be racing, there's no strategy which will beat everyone in a close field.

In damp and especially changeable conditions, it's completely different. The driver is best placed to know which are the right tyres to be on. But even in this situation, the driver may be happy with inters, but if someone else has put on slicks and is going faster, that's info that only the team has.

Sadly, it's very rarely that you can say of McLaren that they optimised the strategy, and it almost never happens that they put a car ahead of where it should have finished.

The battle between Button and Rosberg in Behrain was just the latest example of the McLaren pitwall's weakness. Jenson overtakes on the track, Rosberg gets the undercut each time. When on lap 20 Rosberg lost places to Jenson and Grosjean, and had Perez shaping up to pass him by the end of the lap, it was as obvious as it can be that Rosberg was going to have to pit. And having missed that opportunity, McLaren called Jenson into the pit the very next lap, so that Jenson didn't even get the benefit of fresher tyres in the next stint.

And then almost exactly the same thing happens at the next pitstop. It's just not an acceptable level of performance.

Edited by BillBald, 05 May 2013 - 01:12.


#1834 Lazy

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:40

I'm not really sure whether to raise this but did Button not get a fair bit of credit for strategy decisions over the last 3 years whilst Lewis was criticised for being too reliant on the team?
Is it not double standards to then criticise the team for strategy (not sure if that applies to you but I'm speaking generally)?

Fair comment, but I do remember Jenson on the radio last year (Hungary I think) saying to the pitwall "Are you sure about this?" :)

#1835 BillBald

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 14:41

Fair comment, but I do remember Jenson on the radio last year (Hungary I think) saying to the pitwall "Are you sure about this?" :)


The problem is that Jenson doesn't really have time to question the team's calls.

As soon as they tell him to pit, Jenson's job is to get back to the pits as fast as he can, otherwise whatever opportunity the pitwall thinks they have spotted may be lost.

He just has to press on and hope that, this time, they are getting it right.



#1836 Buttoneer

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 19:16

Jenson v Perez 2013 please. There are other threads for discussing the pitwall screw ups from 2010 to 2012 and another for this year.

#1837 Rocket73

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:36

I don't see it like that tbh, I think a lot of things, culminating in being hit, caused JB to lose his cool a bit, uncharacteristically. I don't really see any demands for No.1 status but I do think he was a little surprised to have Checo up his arse after leaving him behind so much in the previous races.

I think it's just a case of a driver letting his emotions get the better of him whilst pumped with adrenaline, nothing more sinister than that.


So much is made of the first half of 'that' interview but what so many conveniently ignore is the second half where jb is very humble and acknowledges very clearly that checo was faster on the day and drive a better race. It was a very sportsmanlike gesture, especially considering how wild checo was in the race, but funny that no one picked up in it. Not even jb fans.

#1838 ZooL

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:09

So much is made of the first half of 'that' interview but what so many conveniently ignore is the second half where jb is very humble and acknowledges very clearly that checo was faster on the day and drive a better race. It was a very sportsmanlike gesture, especially considering how wild checo was in the race, but funny that no one picked up in it. Not even jb fans.

It's drove a better race by the way.  ;)

I'm assuming other JB fans didn't try to tart it up to look sportsmanlike because it was pretty obvious to world+dog that it was anything but. Button called Perez "dirty".

What Button should have said is the better man won this weekend and left the rest out...that would have been sportsman like behaviour.

#1839 Dalton007

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 14:35

Looking forward to the Spain battle. :) Let's see if that Perez performance was a flash-in-the-pan. I hope not. I want him to push JB, to make him work even harder. :)

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#1840 speng

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 16:36

It's drove a better race by the way. ;)

I'm assuming other JB fans didn't try to tart it up to look sportsmanlike because it was pretty obvious to world+dog that it was anything but. Button called Perez "dirty".

What Button should have said is the better man won this weekend and left the rest out...that would have been sportsman like behaviour.

true.

#1841 JaredS

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 17:06

It's drove a better race by the way. ;)

I'm assuming other JB fans didn't try to tart it up to look sportsmanlike because it was pretty obvious to world+dog that it was anything but. Button called Perez "dirty".

What Button should have said is the better man won this weekend and left the rest out...that would have been sportsman like behaviour.


So you think Button is unsportsmanlike because he didn't omit his poor opinion of Checo's driving after Checo ran up his bum in the race? I don't think "sportsman" is the word you are looking for but rather "saint".

My opinion is that Jenson was rightly upset but neither did he cover himself in glory by glossing over his own dirty driving and moreover showed a chink in his armour of supposed unflappability by fighting hard and ruining his tyres when his normal cool self wouldn't have succumbed to the temptation but which he did in this case, I strongly suspect, because it really bothered him at the time feeling he was being overtaken by his far inferior team mate.

#1842 charly0418

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 19:07

The last thing I will mention about this Bahrein incident, and I think its very important:

Perez has never talked directly about Jenson being dirty even though he was, when asked he has responded saying "WE were fighting to hard". He has never mention Button directly or talked about his driving or situation. Props to him

#1843 MP422

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 22:06

Can't wait to see this pairing at Barcelona ! Maybe hear some more team radio.

#1844 ZooL

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:36

So you think Button is unsportsmanlike because he didn't omit his poor opinion of Checo's driving after Checo ran up his bum in the race? I don't think "sportsman" is the word you are looking for but rather "saint".

My opinion is that Jenson was rightly upset but neither did he cover himself in glory by glossing over his own dirty driving and moreover showed a chink in his armour of supposed unflappability by fighting hard and ruining his tyres when his normal cool self wouldn't have succumbed to the temptation but which he did in this case, I strongly suspect, because it really bothered him at the time feeling he was being overtaken by his far inferior team mate.

Yup.

Button gave as good as he got so he should have stayed schtum.

#1845 Rocket73

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 08:09

It's drove a better race by the way. ;)

I'm assuming other JB fans didn't try to tart it up to look sportsmanlike because it was pretty obvious to world+dog that it was anything but. Button called Perez "dirty".

What Button should have said is the better man won this weekend and left the rest out...that would have been sportsman like behaviour.


Very sorry sir...are you the one to be correcting people's typos? No...you are not.

And he did say that! That's the whole point. But checo was wild and dangerous so he shouldn't keep quiet. Jeez drivers rant all the time but because it's jb all the sensitive and hurt hammy fans jump on the opportunity to slate him. I would love to see the reaction here if it had been jb making the comments kimi made in the radio on the way to his first win last year.

Lol that would be amusing watching you all seeth and hiss.

#1846 Dalton007

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:47

The only way JB can shut up the haters is to win. Let's do this! :)

#1847 Rinehart

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 10:53

It's just some people interpreting it as asking for team orders, and some people interpreting it as something more palatable.

It's quite obvious to me that Jense was trying to get the team to intervene. "Calm him down" can't mean anything else, can it? People keep arguing about the nuances, is the problem :lol: .

I love the radio, I think it's deliciously revealing.


Yes its called your agenda.
When Hamilton hit Jenson in Canada he called the team and told them to calm him down.
As you will never agree that it is perfectly normal for a driver being hit from behind by his teammate to just suck it up and not mention it (because JB is involved), the debate is still going.

#1848 BillBald

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:18

Yup.

Button gave as good as he got so he should have stayed schtum.


How does the one follow from the other?

Jenson gave as good as he got, but also was right to complain about Perez because it was Perez who made the first overly aggressive move on his team-mate.

Jenson's reaction was the right one. He can't allow himself to be pushed around, but he should be able to expect better behaviour from Perez, and I'm thinking that in future, Perez will behave himself.



#1849 Rinehart

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:22

Hi all. First time poster, long time reader here. :wave:

Am I the only one who is slightly mystified why JB is being touted as 'Number 1' at McLaren? This seems to have been perpetrated (mostly) by the British media, by some of the posters on this forum and (more subjectively) by JB himself in the tone/content of his radio messages at Bahrain, forcefully asking the team to 'sort it out'.

Surely McLaren in recent years have demonstrated that the incumbent does not automatically get No 1 status. If anything it seems to be the other way around! Alonso v Hamilton, Hamilton v Button, and culminating in what we have now, particularly telling in the radio message to Perez after the argy bargy on track (paraphrasing) "Look after the car. You're doing a great job."

Why is JB (or anyone on this forum for that matter) surprised at current state of affairs?!

My take is that McLaren (rightly so) want to provide as much support to the newcomer, and expect the longer standing teammate to effectively hold their own and get on with it.

If this is right, JB has a few options: deliver results against whatever adversity (from inside or outside of the team), put up/shut up, or leave!

Thoughts?



The facts are that JB was comfortably ahead of his teammate in 3 races, in the 4th he was suffering from poor tyre deg and was beaten. That sounds like a set up issue to me, not a sudden swing of talent.

Nothing else has changed. JB was and remains confident and likely to beat Checo more often than not in my opinion. The idea that he needs to beat him more so now than before is ridiculous. JB is an F1 driver and therefore already he was under pressure to deliver the best results he could. An awful lot is being made of this by certain people who want this to be bigger than it is. Making 1 race out to be bigger than the 3 before, let alone the 3 years before is a massive reach.


#1850 Rinehart

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:33

So... we approach Spain. I hope this new package works, because frankly, the next instalment of Button v Perez in light of what happened in Bahrain is going to be a bit of a let down if it all happens outside the points...

Got to remember that for all this lacking top tier drivers, McLaren's car is a dud... they've raced for podiums twice already and were right in the mix in Bahrain also.

I'd like to see McLaren up there fighting for podiums on pace with both drivers - reminding people what a team McLaren is and what drivers JB and SP are.

Because the overall theme of this thread seems to be one of massive underestimation.