Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 13 votes

Button v Perez - 2013


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
4000 replies to this topic

#151 Dunc

Dunc
  • Member

  • 445 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:03

You can take a horse to a river but cant force it to drink. Vettel only has his eyes for Ferrari so no amount of offers from McLaren would tempt him. For him and most people, it would be a downgrade going to McLaren when you have the chance to drive for Ferrari.

It depresses me as to how much I agree with you. The team of Lauda, Prost and Senna is now one that no major talent would have as their first choice move. How are the mighty fallen.

Advertisement

#152 MirNyet

MirNyet
  • Member

  • 908 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 16 January 2013 - 14:19

You can take a horse to a river but cant force it to drink. Vettel only has his eyes for Ferrari so no amount of offers from McLaren would tempt him. For him and most people, it would be a downgrade going to McLaren when you have the chance to drive for Ferrari.

It depresses me as to how much I agree with you. The team of Lauda, Prost and Senna is now one that no major talent would have as their first choice move. How are the mighty fallen.


McLaren is still a top team, while I would agree that they really need to sort themselves out (last year was awful) the seat Perez has was something that most drivers would have jumped at. It will be interesting to see how McLaren conduct themselves this year, it will also be interesting to see what the team dynamic is without Hamliton being there - we may get to see if he was a positive presence or a negative.



#153 Dunc

Dunc
  • Member

  • 445 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 16 January 2013 - 21:27

McLaren is still a top team, while I would agree that they really need to sort themselves out (last year was awful) the seat Perez has was something that most drivers would have jumped at. It will be interesting to see how McLaren conduct themselves this year, it will also be interesting to see what the team dynamic is without Hamliton being there - we may get to see if he was a positive presence or a negative.


No argument there. But I reckon if Perez had had the choice of Ferrari, Macca & RB, his current team would have been his third choice pick.


#154 Lone

Lone
  • Member

  • 659 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 16 January 2013 - 21:57

Button should out score Perez quite easily since it's Perez first year in a top team but in 2014 it could go either way, if both are still driving for McLaren.

My prediction is that Räikkonen will replace one of them in 2014 if they don't win either the WDC or the WCC or atleast be close to winning one of the titles.

Edited by Lone, 16 January 2013 - 22:08.


#155 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 16 January 2013 - 22:14

I think Perez is going to suffer. He won't have the metronomic free-air pace that JB has and his judgment in traffic is fundamentally no better and a lot less experienced. Barring luck I think he'll be a place or two behind on his good weekends, and nowhere on his bad ones. Just my guess though, let's see.

#156 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 16 January 2013 - 22:17

No argument there. But I reckon if Perez had had the choice of Ferrari, Macca & RB, his current team would have been his third choice pick.

Red Bull yes. In Ferrari he'd have had less scope to win though. He might even have become known as a No.2...

#157 Mc_Silver

Mc_Silver
  • Member

  • 2,149 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 16 January 2013 - 22:24

I think Perez is going to suffer. He won't have the metronomic free-air pace that JB has and his judgment in traffic is fundamentally no better and a lot less experienced. Barring luck I think he'll be a place or two behind on his good weekends, and nowhere on his bad ones. Just my guess though, let's see.


When Button has chronical balance problems he becomes one of the slowest driver really. Look at Canada, Monaco, Singapore, Abu Dhabi, Spain and probably there are other Gps that I may not remember. He had one of the fastest car in these Gps but he could not deliver.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 16 January 2013 - 22:25.


#158 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 16 January 2013 - 22:32

When Button has chronical balance problems he becomes one of the slowest driver really. Look at Canada, Monaco, Singapore, Abu Dhabi, Spain and probably there are other Gps that I may not remember. He had one of the fastest car in these Gps but he could not deliver.

That's true but now he won't have Lewis panicking him into losing the plot. He'll have the team's focus and he'll be able to move his setup in small steps, so it's less likely to happen I'd say. Not as drastically anyway. And is Checo any more versatile? What do we know?

#159 Mc_Silver

Mc_Silver
  • Member

  • 2,149 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 16 January 2013 - 22:50

That's true but now he won't have Lewis panicking him into losing the plot. He'll have the team's focus and he'll be able to move his setup in small steps, so it's less likely to happen I'd say. Not as drastically anyway. And is Checo any more versatile? What do we know?


That's what I wanna say, we do not know about Perez yet, he did not even turn a wheel in a car butsome people think that if he does not win regularly it would be massive disappointment and underachievement. I do not understand putting this kind of pressure on Perez. We need to give this guy some time before really comparing him with Button. Button has many advantages over him for the first season but if Perez manages to beat him in his first season I don't know what would happen :)

Edited by Mc_Silver, 16 January 2013 - 22:51.


Advertisement

#160 garoidb

garoidb
  • Member

  • 3,606 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 16 January 2013 - 23:42

You can take a horse to a river but cant force it to drink. Vettel only has his eyes for Ferrari so no amount of offers from McLaren would tempt him. For him and most people, it would be a downgrade going to McLaren when you have the chance to drive for Ferrari.

It depresses me as to how much I agree with you. The team of Lauda, Prost and Senna is now one that no major talent would have as their first choice move. How are the mighty fallen.


McLaren is still a top team, while I would agree that they really need to sort themselves out (last year was awful) the seat Perez has was something that most drivers would have jumped at. It will be interesting to see how McLaren conduct themselves this year, it will also be interesting to see what the team dynamic is without Hamliton being there - we may get to see if he was a positive presence or a negative.


I'm not really a McLaren fan, although I have been in the past at times (Lauda, Hakkinen). There were times when they were the most desirable team to drive for, but then so were Williams at other times and Ferrari have always had allure irrespective of their competitiveness. McLaren have not fallen too far, and are still comfortably a top three team (indeed arguably top two). One of the reasons that certain top drivers are not linked with moves to McLaren is that they have already been there and had difficulties unrelated to the quality of the team.

It is the end of an era with Lewis leaving, and how things go over the next few years will be interesting.



#161 SNiko

SNiko
  • Member

  • 1,051 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 16 January 2013 - 23:52

I think Perez should ask to invite Alonso as a test driver :).

#162 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 8,899 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 17 January 2013 - 09:39

That's true but now he won't have Lewis panicking him into losing the plot. He'll have the team's focus and he'll be able to move his setup in small steps, so it's less likely to happen I'd say. Not as drastically anyway. And is Checo any more versatile? What do we know?


Lewis or no Lewis is irrelevant and if anything I remember the panicking happening the opposite way.
So long as the Car-Pirelli dynamics suit Button better than they did last year, his performances will be more like 2011, or the start or end of 2012.
All the noises are that the Pirellis will be more suited to Button in 2013, if that's the case expect a strong Button.


#163 Owen

Owen
  • Member

  • 10,473 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 17 January 2013 - 13:00

Don't know about Button vs Perez. But Button and Perez may be quite a potent combination if Button imparts what he knows and Perez listens, which is what appears to be happening.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105163

#164 Force Ten

Force Ten
  • Member

  • 2,829 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 17 January 2013 - 13:36

When Button has chronical balance problems he becomes one of the slowest driver really. Look at Canada, Monaco, Singapore, Abu Dhabi, Spain and probably there are other Gps that I may not remember. He had one of the fastest car in these Gps but he could not deliver.

Singapore and Abu Dhabi? Yeah, sure.

#165 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 8,899 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 17 January 2013 - 15:03

When Button has chronical balance problems he becomes one of the slowest driver really. Look at Canada, Monaco, Singapore, Abu Dhabi, Spain and probably there are other Gps that I may not remember. He had one of the fastest car in these Gps but he could not deliver.


Great, so your point is that in a 10 year F1 career, you can remember 5 races where he was slow due to balance, in only 1 of those did his teammate win and in two of those he was running at podium pace (SC costing him at Abu). Really, there should be a prize for this attempt!

This is not to dispute the idea that Button's pace can be compromised by poor set up. That I agree with fully. What I disagree with is that it would not be hard to list 5 races for ANY driver where they didn't maximise the potential of the car. Its the whole challenge of F1!!! It would be very easy if they did, every time.

#166 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
  • Member

  • 2,905 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 January 2013 - 15:23

Singapore and Abu Dhabi? Yeah, sure.


Well if being 5-7 tenths off your team mate is remotely competitive then that's news to me.

#167 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
  • Member

  • 2,905 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 January 2013 - 15:25

Great, so your point is that in a 10 year F1 career, you can remember 5 races where he was slow due to balance, in only 1 of those did his teammate win and in two of those he was running at podium pace (SC costing him at Abu). Really, there should be a prize for this attempt!

This is not to dispute the idea that Button's pace can be compromised by poor set up. That I agree with fully. What I disagree with is that it would not be hard to list 5 races for ANY driver where they didn't maximise the potential of the car. Its the whole challenge of F1!!! It would be very easy if they did, every time.


He listed 5 races in one season. Don't tell me you expected an exhaustive list of his entire career to make his point valid? I wouldn't go so far as to say he becomes one of the slowest drivers when he's unhappy with the car, but he does lose a disproportionate amount of speed compared to the other drivers he's rated against.

#168 Force Ten

Force Ten
  • Member

  • 2,829 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 17 January 2013 - 15:46

Well if being 5-7 tenths off your team mate is remotely competitive then that's news to me.

Yeah, it's being one of the slowest drivers on the grid. Sure. Just. Cannot. Stop. Pointing. Out. How. Lewis. Is. Da. Best.

#169 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
  • Member

  • 2,905 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 January 2013 - 16:11

Yeah, it's being one of the slowest drivers on the grid. Sure. Just. Cannot. Stop. Pointing. Out. How. Lewis. Is. Da. Best.


And you just cannot stop posting sarky, lame remarks such as this one, baiting other posters into having arguments with you. If you want to discuss the topic at hand please see my above post and then see if you disagree.

#170 ForeverF1

ForeverF1
  • RC Forum Host

  • 6,484 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 17 January 2013 - 16:22

The trolling stops, and it stops now.

#171 Winter98

Winter98
  • Member

  • 638 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 17 January 2013 - 16:57

Don't know about Button vs Perez. But Button and Perez may be quite a potent combination if Button imparts what he knows and Perez listens, which is what appears to be happening.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105163


Smart lad not wasting such a valuable opportunity.

Hopefully the McLaren will be in both title hunts this year.

#172 Winter98

Winter98
  • Member

  • 638 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 17 January 2013 - 17:41

No argument there. But I reckon if Perez had had the choice of Ferrari, Macca & RB, his current team would have been his third choice pick.


Interesting. I would have thought the opposite:

RBR - guaranteed number 2 driver to start, and a relatively young and inexperienced teammate in terms of being a mentor.

Ferrari - guaranteed number 2 driver period, and an experienced teammate whose advice you can't trust, especially if you're performing well.

McLaren - equal status in the team, and a classy and experienced teammate who can be a great mentor.

I'm expecting Perez to fair relatively well against Button beating him in qualifying the odd time, and finishing ahead in a few races. I do think Perez will finish well behind in points, but will demonstrate that he has the pace and just needs a bit more experience.



#173 Mc_Silver

Mc_Silver
  • Member

  • 2,149 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 17 January 2013 - 17:57

He listed 5 races in one season. Don't tell me you expected an exhaustive list of his entire career to make his point valid? I wouldn't go so far as to say he becomes one of the slowest drivers when he's unhappy with the car, but he does lose a disproportionate amount of speed compared to the other drivers he's rated against.


Thanks for the explanation mate it was not difficult to understand what I meant there. I do not say Button is slow driver. What I mean is that his set-up range to maximize everything out of the car is much more narrower than Lewis. He needs very balanced car suitable to his liking. I believe the reason for this is his extremely smoothness behind the wheel. He does not attack the corners as aggressive as Lewis does. This also causes problem to heat the tyres. We cannot blame him for that this is driving style but Hamilton and Alonso are more adaptable drivers they can change their driving style and techniques to get everything out of the car consistently

Edited by Mc_Silver, 17 January 2013 - 18:00.


#174 fenixracing

fenixracing
  • Member

  • 340 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 January 2013 - 17:58

what experience? he is not a rookie! the only thing you can say is, that he is unproven in a topcar.

#175 leojagpreet

leojagpreet
  • Member

  • 39 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 17 January 2013 - 19:04

Jenson or Perez...I think Jenson will win the battle as they both are good in grinding out results rather than winning in Vettel manner...but Jenson from his experience will win the battle...

#176 Dunc

Dunc
  • Member

  • 445 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 22 January 2013 - 14:14

Interesting. I would have thought the opposite:

RBR - guaranteed number 2 driver to start, and a relatively young and inexperienced teammate in terms of being a mentor.

Ferrari - guaranteed number 2 driver period, and an experienced teammate whose advice you can't trust, especially if you're performing well.

McLaren - equal status in the team, and a classy and experienced teammate who can be a great mentor.

I'm expecting Perez to fair relatively well against Button beating him in qualifying the odd time, and finishing ahead in a few races. I do think Perez will finish well behind in points, but will demonstrate that he has the pace and just needs a bit more experience.


I did mean in an ideal world where he'd be on equal or superior terms to his teammate, but I see your point.

I'm worried McLaren could become a Team Lotus for the 21st century. In the 1980s that team had Ellio, Mansell, Senna and Piquet but went into terminal decline after the death of Chapman. I hope the post-Ron Macca aren't on the same trajectory, able to attract the big names but not able to give them the success they crave.

#177 charly0418

charly0418
  • Member

  • 1,203 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 22 January 2013 - 17:24

McLaren will be great in 2013, I don't think there's any reason to worry about next season. They closed out being the best car and have mistakes that are fixable (as long as they have pace, they have a chance).

After 2013 do I would worry, with all this Paddy Lowe talk about leaving and McLaren not being very good after rule changes.

#178 Mc_Silver

Mc_Silver
  • Member

  • 2,149 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 22 January 2013 - 17:42

McLaren will be great in 2013, I don't think there's any reason to worry about next season. They closed out being the best car and have mistakes that are fixable (as long as they have pace, they have a chance).

After 2013 do I would worry, with all this Paddy Lowe talk about leaving and McLaren not being very good after rule changes.


2014 is completely unknown for everyone really. However, I'm sure McLaren will be able to find a way to be competitive even if they start the season in backfoot like in 2009. McLaren's strength comes from its depth.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 22 January 2013 - 17:43.


#179 study

study
  • Member

  • 2,452 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 22 January 2013 - 19:12

Interesting. I would have thought the opposite:

RBR - guaranteed number 2 driver to start, and a relatively young and inexperienced teammate in terms of being a mentor.

Ferrari - guaranteed number 2 driver period, and an experienced teammate whose advice you can't trust, especially if you're performing well.

McLaren - equal status in the team, and a classy and experienced teammate who can be a great mentor.

I'm expecting Perez to fair relatively well against Button beating him in qualifying the odd time, and finishing ahead in a few races. I do think Perez will finish well behind in points, but will demonstrate that he has the pace and just needs a bit more experience.



You will find that the famed equal status will be no next year. Whitmarsh will have no issue promoting his favourite boy now that the stumbling block of lewis is gone.

Advertisement

#180 charly0418

charly0418
  • Member

  • 1,203 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 23 January 2013 - 22:40

I was watching the Canadian GP replay today and couldnt believe what I saw at the end.

After Canada Jenson was 8th in the Championship with 45 points
Perez was 9th with 37

Holy crap

#181 Mc_Silver

Mc_Silver
  • Member

  • 2,149 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 24 January 2013 - 16:33

I was watching the Canadian GP replay today and couldnt believe what I saw at the end.

After Canada Jenson was 8th in the Championship with 45 points
Perez was 9th with 37

Holy crap


:drunk:

#182 Kingshark

Kingshark
  • Member

  • 2,944 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 24 January 2013 - 17:43

I was watching the Canadian GP replay today and couldnt believe what I saw at the end.

After Canada Jenson in a McLaren was 8th in the Championship with 45 points while his teammate was leading the WDC.
Perez in a Sauber was 9th with 37.

Holy crap

:rotfl:

People still believe Button is going to outscore Perez by hundreds of points this season. :lol:

#183 SunnyENTP

SunnyENTP
  • Member

  • 717 posts
  • Joined: August 12

Posted 24 January 2013 - 18:45

:rotfl:

People still believe Button is going to outscore Perez by hundreds of points this season. :lol:



I admit I was one of those who expected Button to completely destroy Perez but something tell me Checo is going to shock lots of people provided he does not have the mysterious faults in his when he is beating Whitmarsh favorite.

#184 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,853 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 24 January 2013 - 20:18

You will find that the famed equal status will be no next year. Whitmarsh will have no issue promoting his favourite boy now that the stumbling block of lewis is gone.

Didn't McLaren offer 'the stumbling block' a huge wodge of cash to stay?

I was watching the Canadian GP replay today and couldnt believe what I saw at the end.

After Canada Jenson was 8th in the Championship with 45 points
Perez was 9th with 37

Holy crap

Do you think Buttons Canada pace was representative of his true potential?

:rotfl:

People still believe Button is going to outscore Perez by hundreds of points this season. :lol:

Sorry, I can't find a post that suggests that. Maybe you can point it out? Maybe it's the one with lots of smilies?

I admit I was one of those who expected Button to completely destroy Perez but something tell me Checo is going to shock lots of people provided he does not have the mysterious faults in his when he is beating Whitmarsh favorite.

I'm a fan of Perez and can see him doing pretty well. Hopefully he doesn't have any 'mysterious faults' that affected both drivers last year.

#185 Kingshark

Kingshark
  • Member

  • 2,944 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 24 January 2013 - 20:30

Sorry, I can't find a post that suggests that. Maybe you can point it out? Maybe it's the one with lots of smilies?

People would think better of Sato. Perez will get destroyed so badly that he will probably consider early retirement after 2013. Perez at Mclaren will be a disaster. Button will obliterate him nearly every race. Jenson is the real deal people.

:up: :up: :up:

Yep.

It's got JB vs Salo written all over it IMO. For Honda (initially) read Carlos Slim etc. etc.

I'm not a fan of either driver but I think signing Perez was an act of desperation from McLaren.

This is another Heikki in the making, Button will blow Perez away big time.

Personally I would have loved McLaren to sign Schumi for one year, just to blow away Merc but it wasn't to be. also I would prefer to see Kamui in that seat.
Perez is ok and I have nothing against him but currently I don't see him as future champion and his last few races were terrible.

Prediction: Button will have 100 more points come the end of the season.

That was on the first page alone. :drunk: :p

Do you think Buttons Canada pace was representative of his true potential?

Not just Canada, but his entire season up and until Canada.

Edited by Kingshark, 24 January 2013 - 20:31.


#186 BernieEc

BernieEc
  • Member

  • 2,131 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 24 January 2013 - 20:34

That was on the first page alone. :drunk: :p


Not just Canada, but his entire season up and until Canada.



Now thats what you call owned..... :rotfl: :)

#187 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,853 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 24 January 2013 - 20:51

QUOTE (Lights @ Dec 12 2012, 12:24)
People would think better of Sato. Perez will get destroyed so badly that he will probably consider early retirement after 2013. Perez at Mclaren will be a disaster. Button will obliterate him nearly every race. Jenson is the real deal people.

...

That was on the first page alone. :drunk: :p


The first quote was a parody of a collection of Hamilton-will-destroy-Button quotes from the start of 2010. Reposting it as a genuine POV is pretty disingenuous IMHO, but I'll give you the rest. I maybe should have checked first! :blush: :drunk: :drunk: :rotfl: :lol: :drunk: :rotfl: :rotfl: :stoned:

Not just Canada, but his entire season up and until Canada.

If he's as bad as you say I'm assuming you think Perez will be over a hundred points ahead of Button by the end of the season?

#188 MirNyet

MirNyet
  • Member

  • 908 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 25 January 2013 - 00:10

If he's as bad as you say I'm assuming you think Perez will be over a hundred points ahead of Button by the end of the season?


Actually I expect quite the opposite - Perez maybe faster - but I expect to see a lot of damaged cars this year. Button may not be that fast, but he does tend to bring the car home. Also, on the point of the tires helping Button have a good year 'like 2011' - Button is quoted as stating he needs a balanced car, the EBD helped create a very balanced car - this more than most other things helped Button in 2011. Unless McLaren have found a way of getting that amount of rear downforce again (something that historically they lack) then 2013 will be a repeat of 2012. Button's remarks about the 2012 car being the worse one he drove at McLaren could be seen as a comment on rear downforce as the 2010 and 2011 cars had either DDD or EBD assisted rear downforce. The downwash exhaust while better than nothing does not create anywhere near the downforce levels of either the DDD or the EBD.

So - might be a case of the Tortoise and the Mad March Hare :)



#189 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 25 January 2013 - 00:33

Actually I expect quite the opposite - Perez maybe faster - but I expect to see a lot of damaged cars this year. Button may not be that fast, but he does tend to bring the car home. Also, on the point of the tires helping Button have a good year 'like 2011' - Button is quoted as stating he needs a balanced car, the EBD helped create a very balanced car - this more than most other things helped Button in 2011. Unless McLaren have found a way of getting that amount of rear downforce again (something that historically they lack) then 2013 will be a repeat of 2012. Button's remarks about the 2012 car being the worse one he drove at McLaren could be seen as a comment on rear downforce as the 2010 and 2011 cars had either DDD or EBD assisted rear downforce. The downwash exhaust while better than nothing does not create anywhere near the downforce levels of either the DDD or the EBD.

So - might be a case of the Tortoise and the Mad March Hare :)

Button's struggles in 2012 had nothing to do with a lack of the EBD, we know the real issue was with the tyres not rear downforce.

#190 MirNyet

MirNyet
  • Member

  • 908 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 25 January 2013 - 00:47

Button's struggles in 2012 had nothing to do with a lack of the EBD, we know the real issue was with the tyres not rear downforce.


Considering how secretive the teams are - how do we know this?


#191 Peter Perfect

Peter Perfect
  • Member

  • 4,853 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 25 January 2013 - 07:19

Considering how secretive the teams are - how do we know this?

Of course we can't know for sure but we can make a reasonable guess given Buttons problems and successes this year. If he truly had an issue with the fundamental balance of the car because it lacked rear downforce I doubt he'd have won 3 races last year. And given other drivers up-and-down performances (although clearly not as pronounced as Buttons) at the start of the year I think tyre issues, as the team have said, are far more likely to have been the major cause of his issues.

With this in mind I'm more hopeful this year that Button will be able to put in a more sustained challenge for the WDC as apparently the tyres will have a wider working temperature range. And as far as I've seen Perez appears to have a smoother driving style than Hamilton's natural style so perhaps the team will be able to be more aggressive on tyre usage in the design of the car, which with Pirelli telling everyone how they're going to shake things up again may be very important.

#192 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:51

Considering how secretive the teams are - how do we know this?

here you are Here Everyone knows it was tyres, button has mentioned it so have the team and journalists.

#193 MirNyet

MirNyet
  • Member

  • 908 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 25 January 2013 - 14:38

here you are Here Everyone knows it was tyres, button has mentioned it so have the team and journalists.


In reading the link, the loss of the EBD has made the car more difficult to set up, and in his quest to get heat into the front tires, he made the rear end even more unstable. Now as Button needs a car that slides evenly and not front biased - in having a car that has a loose rear means that the rear tires will heat up quickly and burn themselves away (something we did see from Button last year) while the fronts remain colder. Also the heat difference between front to rear would be bad (struggling to get heat into the fronts) and would make the car even more unbalanced than it was in the first place. So - while the problem may be tires - the cause is the lack of rear downforce which Button cannot handle - something many here have said for a while. This is not something which is going to be much better this year. If Perez has a similar style to Button - then it could be pain for the pair of them.

McLaren really need to be learning some lessons from Red Bull which has had a rock solid rear since 2009 regardless of DDD or EBD's or both of their current drivers could be stuck with a car neither of them can get the best out of.






#194 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
  • Member

  • 2,905 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 25 January 2013 - 15:30

Button's struggles in 2012 had nothing to do with a lack of the EBD, we know the real issue was with the tyres not rear downforce.


They're intrinsically linked. EBD kept the car in balance, energising the rear tyres. 2011 was by far JB's best season to date at McLaren, and was by far his most consistent in terms of raw performance. I don't understand why you would so easily discount the EBD factor. JB has stated himself he hates rear instability under braking, which is something the EBD specifically cured. Sam Michael talked last year of how Hamilton was particularly adept at maximising a rear limited car, well that's what the 2012 cars were compared to the EBD cars of 2011. This is just as big a factor as the tyres IMO for why Button struggled in 2012 relative to Hamilton.

#195 MirNyet

MirNyet
  • Member

  • 908 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 25 January 2013 - 15:49

Of course we can't know for sure but we can make a reasonable guess given Buttons problems and successes this year. If he truly had an issue with the fundamental balance of the car because it lacked rear downforce I doubt he'd have won 3 races last year. And given other drivers up-and-down performances (although clearly not as pronounced as Buttons) at the start of the year I think tyre issues, as the team have said, are far more likely to have been the major cause of his issues.

With this in mind I'm more hopeful this year that Button will be able to put in a more sustained challenge for the WDC as apparently the tyres will have a wider working temperature range. And as far as I've seen Perez appears to have a smoother driving style than Hamilton's natural style so perhaps the team will be able to be more aggressive on tyre usage in the design of the car, which with Pirelli telling everyone how they're going to shake things up again may be very important.


I do agree that the wider working range should help - if the car is still sliding around at the back he will still end up chewing his rear tires up. Lowe has gone on record as saying this new car was designed with Button/Hamliton in mind - so it may still not be a car he is 100% comfortable in. First couple of tests should tell the tale.

Do we know for sure that Perez has a driving style akin to Button - the Sauber was a smooth car, do we know from his time in other series what his style was like or are we just guessing based on his time at Sauber?

#196 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 5,214 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 25 January 2013 - 16:19

They're intrinsically linked. EBD kept the car in balance, energising the rear tyres. 2011 was by far JB's best season to date at McLaren, and was by far his most consistent in terms of raw performance. I don't understand why you would so easily discount the EBD factor. JB has stated himself he hates rear instability under braking, which is something the EBD specifically cured. Sam Michael talked last year of how Hamilton was particularly adept at maximising a rear limited car, well that's what the 2012 cars were compared to the EBD cars of 2011. This is just as big a factor as the tyres IMO for why Button struggled in 2012 relative to Hamilton.

The EBD did not balance the car, it gave df, and variable df at that, so the extra df comes at a price of variable balance. The power would be off under braking so the EBD effect would be much less pronounced. The car would be much more balanced with purely aero generated df.



#197 peroa

peroa
  • Member

  • 8,897 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 25 January 2013 - 16:24

The EBD did not balance the car, it gave df, and variable df at that, so the extra df comes at a price of variable balance. The power would be off under braking so the EBD effect would be much less pronounced. The car would be much more balanced with purely aero generated df.

Are you serious?
The feature of 2011 EBD was off throttle blowing, I'll let you work out the rest.

#198 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 25 January 2013 - 17:26

The 2012 tyres had a narrow working-temperature window, that was why he struggled, maybe if the EBD was still around it might not have been such a big problem, but who knows.

#199 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 5,214 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:07

Are you serious?
The feature of 2011 EBD was off throttle blowing, I'll let you work out the rest.

Indeed it was exactly for this reason that the off throttle blowing was developed, but that would only alleviate the issue a bit, off throttle blowing gave a fraction of the df created at full throttle, you would still get big variations in rear df.

Last years problems were to do with getting the front and rear tyres in the right temp window at the same time as has been well documented.

Advertisement

#200 study

study
  • Member

  • 2,452 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 26 January 2013 - 14:53

The 2012 tyres had a narrow working-temperature window, that was why he struggled, maybe if the EBD was still around it might not have been such a big problem, but who knows.


I thought button was a tyre maestro?