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Button v Perez - 2013


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#201 ZooL

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:20

The 2012 tyres had a narrow working-temperature window, that was why he struggled, maybe if the EBD was still around it might not have been such a big problem, but who knows.



Indeed it was exactly for this reason that the off throttle blowing was developed, but that would only alleviate the issue a bit, off throttle blowing gave a fraction of the df created at full throttle, you would still get big variations in rear df.

Last years problems were to do with getting the front and rear tyres in the right temp window at the same time as has been well documented.

In my opinion shouldn't this be re-phrased to something along the lines of:

'Last years problems were down to Button unable to get the front and rear tyres into the right temp window' (since the sister car was fine so its not the chassis).

Anyway will be interesting to watch him lead the team, I hope for McLaren's sake he comes up with better ideas/feedback than last year leading and taking them down blind alley's and his wacky ideas of trying something different. 100% focus on Button to challenge for WDC IMO, and I mean a genuine toe-to-toe WDC challenge, that he hasn't produced at McLaren to date.

I expect Button to beat Perez easily, no idea why McLaren went for Perez at all - it was a panic decision.

FWIW both have lost half the battles already because they are too slow in qualifying. Beating Alonso and Vettel consistently from behind over a full season just ain't gonna happen, and we'll see that more next year as Button can no longer hide behind Hamilton.

Edited by ZooL, 26 January 2013 - 15:20.


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#202 Busted

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:38

I expect Button to beat Perez easily, no idea why McLaren went for Perez at all - it was a panic decision.


How was it panic decision when Checo and Whitmarsh met in private during Hungarian GP, at the end of July?


#203 PARAZAR

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:43

Can we not make this about Hamilton yet again? As far as Button and Perez are concerned, I expect Button to come out ahead but that's as much as I'm willing to predict at this point.

#204 Lazy

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:12

In my opinion shouldn't this be re-phrased to something along the lines of:

'Last years problems were down to Button unable to get the front and rear tyres into the right temp window' (since the sister car was fine so its not the chassis).

Indeed.

#205 MirNyet

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 18:34

Indeed.


But it ignores the point that he was overheating the rears which is at the root of the problems with the fronts - the rears had burned away before he got the fronts into the window. Again, we come back to him not being able to handle the lose rear being his main issue - the EBD helped a lot with this as did the DDD (both at Brawn and Mclaren) - so the rear of the car was a lot more stable. The rear sliding around all the time was causing the rear tires to heat up very quickly and burn away. It would be interesting to know if his throttle control also was partly to blame with him perhaps putting too much wheel spin through the rears?

He basically just needs a car with lots of rear downforce - nothing too unusual with that - lots of drivers need this to differing degrees. McLaren however historically don't tend to make cars with this feature which has favoured drivers who can handle this.

#206 study

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 18:47

He basically just needs a car with lots of rear downforce - nothing too unusual with that - lots of drivers need this to differing degrees. McLaren however historically don't tend to make cars with this feature which has favoured drivers who can handle this.


Cars with lots of rear downforce you either need pre-2009 era rules cars, a 2009 Brawn or a Redbull.

#207 MirNyet

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 18:54

Cars with lots of rear downforce you either need pre-2009 era rules cars, a 2009 Brawn or a Redbull.


I would agree - which is why I am not really expecting much from this year as neither driver from what I can gather likes a car that is loose at the rear. My hope is that they both just keep mopping up points and string a WCC together between them.

#208 Mc_Silver

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 19:17

Mp4-28 will probably have more stable rear than Mp4-27 as the regulations will remain the same so it should be better year for Button at least

Edited by Mc_Silver, 26 January 2013 - 20:52.


#209 WitnessX

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 20:13

But it ignores the point that he was overheating the rears which is at the root of the problems with the fronts - the rears had burned away before he got the fronts into the window. Again, we come back to him not being able to handle the lose rear being his main issue - the EBD helped a lot with this as did the DDD (both at Brawn and Mclaren) - so the rear of the car was a lot more stable. The rear sliding around all the time was causing the rear tires to heat up very quickly and burn away. It would be interesting to know if his throttle control also was partly to blame with him perhaps putting too much wheel spin through the rears?

He basically just needs a car with lots of rear downforce - nothing too unusual with that - lots of drivers need this to differing degrees. McLaren however historically don't tend to make cars with this feature which has favoured drivers who can handle this.

At the first part of 2010 there was no EBD and after 5 races he was first in WDC.
At Australia, Belgium and Brazil this year they did not suddenly bolt on a 2011 EBD.

The problem with the rear tyres was to do with incorrect cooling for the revised brake system he was using which they had for 3 races and only found out after Canada and corrected. (its all in the Jenson Button thread)

The problem with some of his qualifying positions is to do with the tyres:

An idiosyncrasy of the '27 was that it was that it was difficult to get a set-up which suited both types of tyres on a weekend.

Taking the example of the heavy wets and the intermediates. If it worked well with the heavy wets it was hopeless on the intermediates and vice-versa. The same phenomenon occurred with the dry tyres. Tuning performance for one type of tyre de-tunes the performance on the other. This leads to a decision on which tyre to favour, option or prime?

If you go through the non-weird races and ignoring when either driver was hampered with traffic (or mechanics) you will find that relatively speaking that Lewis was quicker on the options and Jenson was quicker on the primes (*based the number of laps that that were quicker than the other driver - I checked Germany,Hungary,Italy,Singapore,India).

This leads me to the conclusion that the two sides of the garage took a different approach whether by mutual plan or coincidence.

The "option" approach gives you a better starting position and first stint in the race but you then have to defend that position with a less effective car. The "prime" approach will give you a stronger car after the first stint, however you chance a worse qualifying position and fall back into traffic.

The approach taken by Jensons side of the garage (prime) didn't work out as well as it could. I suspect that at Brazil they changed and tried the "option" approach.



#210 MirNyet

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 20:34

At the first part of 2010 there was no EBD and after 5 races he was first in WDC.
At Australia, Belgium and Brazil this year they did not suddenly bolt on a 2011 EBD.

The problem with the rear tyres was to do with incorrect cooling for the revised brake system he was using which they had for 3 races and only found out after Canada and corrected. (its all in the Jenson Button thread)

The problem with some of his qualifying positions is to do with the tyres:

An idiosyncrasy of the '27 was that it was that it was difficult to get a set-up which suited both types of tyres on a weekend.

Taking the example of the heavy wets and the intermediates. If it worked well with the heavy wets it was hopeless on the intermediates and vice-versa. The same phenomenon occurred with the dry tyres. Tuning performance for one type of tyre de-tunes the performance on the other. This leads to a decision on which tyre to favour, option or prime?

If you go through the non-weird races and ignoring when either driver was hampered with traffic (or mechanics) you will find that relatively speaking that Lewis was quicker on the options and Jenson was quicker on the primes (*based the number of laps that that were quicker than the other driver - I checked Germany,Hungary,Italy,Singapore,India).

This leads me to the conclusion that the two sides of the garage took a different approach whether by mutual plan or coincidence.

The "option" approach gives you a better starting position and first stint in the race but you then have to defend that position with a less effective car. The "prime" approach will give you a stronger car after the first stint, however you chance a worse qualifying position and fall back into traffic.

The approach taken by Jensons side of the garage (prime) didn't work out as well as it could. I suspect that at Brazil they changed and tried the "option" approach.



In 2010 they had a rather large mutli-deck diffuser which gave the car a lot of rear downforce - similar to the 2009 Brawn. I cannot really comment on the rear brake issue you have pointed out as I have little knowledge about it - however, Buttons problems did not stop in Canada, he carried balance and rear tire issues pretty much throughout the year. The three races you point out are all higher downforce races, SPA they had a special trick rear wing :) which if I recall caused something of an issue on the other side of the garage :)

#211 WitnessX

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:50

In 2010 they had a rather large mutli-deck diffuser which gave the car a lot of rear downforce - similar to the 2009 Brawn. I cannot really comment on the rear brake issue you have pointed out as I have little knowledge about it - however, Buttons problems did not stop in Canada, he carried balance and rear tire issues pretty much throughout the year. The three races you point out are all higher downforce races, SPA they had a special trick rear wing :) which if I recall caused something of an issue on the other side of the garage :)

If the theory about downforce vs. performance is true then it would mean he should have done well at Abu Dhabi, Monaco and Hungaroring and terrible at Monza, Suzuka and Spa. It's a shame they only bring out this "trick" wing on special occasions. IIRC The wing they used at Spa (irrelevant if it was "trick" or not) it was still a lower downforce rear wing so according to the theory he should have suffered more than all the other drivers.
(Actually consensus appears to be Australia=high, Spa=Low and Brazil = Medium (possibly because of the long uphill drag)).

With regards to 2010, Since McLaren won't give me any numbers I can't challange that statement. The FIA was pretty quick in re-defining the "starter hole" so I'm sceptical. McLaren eventually introduced the blown concept at the German GP, which should have improved his results for the rest of the year, however I can't see that that did improve his results.

Button has always been a perfectionist who is rarely appears to be 100% happy with the car, his practice reports tend to read like "balance" reports. Thats just the way he is, as James Allen once pointed he can be doing the fastest race laps and still be unhappy with the car.

.. here is an interesting video back from 2010 about driving styles, make note of who mentions a "stable back-end".
http://www.crash.net...ing_styles.html


#212 Rinehart

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:40

Can we not make this about Hamilton yet again?


For someone Hamilton apparently "spanked" there's an awful lot of lingering...

This thread is about Button v Perez and I think whilst Perez is obviously a wildcard, we just don't know yet, the fortunes of Button are closely liked with his feeling for the car. If the car and he like the new Pirelli-chassis balance, and Button is in Japan 2011, Australia 2012, Spa 2012 territory, more often than not, he can handle anyone, let alone Perez.

Due to Buttons sensitivity with the car how often will he find this zen? I'm really predicting a lot more often in 2013. Party because the noises from Pirelli suggest the tyres will be more suited, partly because McLaren and Jenson got on top of it last year and learned a lot, partly because McLaren can pursue an engineering philosophy that will maximise Buttons strength (as the lead driver) and in doing so probably satisfy Perez too - who seems to have a similar style to Button.

I'm optimistic that 2013 will show that F1 is about the car+driver combination.

#213 Rinehart

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:46

But it ignores the point that he was overheating the rears which is at the root of the problems with the fronts



Think about it. Jenson was QUICKER than Hamilton in Australia 2012. They didn't take rear downforce OFF the car after that!
What changed was track temperatures and compounds that Pirelli brought to races. JB and his engineers went down an engineering cul-de-sac trying to find a balance.
I agree that Jenson is more susceptible to this (his achilles heal), but they didn't solve it by chucking a load more RD on the car.
The issue has nothing to do with EBD's. Its just a cheap shot to try and suggest that JB is only quick with a golden bullet.

#214 MinT

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:01

I thought there was a thread for hami V Button 2012 - this isnt it.

It will be very interesting to see how Button gets on against Perez - I feel Perez still has a lot to prove and the next couple of seasons are his chance - assuming McLaren havent got options they can excercise at the end of the year if someone better becomes available.....

#215 Owen

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:29

Perez sounds up for this.
http://www.formula1....13/1/14212.html

#216 MirNyet

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 14:05

Think about it. Jenson was QUICKER than Hamilton in Australia 2012. They didn't take rear downforce OFF the car after that!
What changed was track temperatures and compounds that Pirelli brought to races. JB and his engineers went down an engineering cul-de-sac trying to find a balance.
I agree that Jenson is more susceptible to this (his achilles heal), but they didn't solve it by chucking a load more RD on the car.
The issue has nothing to do with EBD's. Its just a cheap shot to try and suggest that JB is only quick with a golden bullet.


Firstly, this is nothing to do with Hamliton - purely Button. Not trying to say he needs a golden bullet, simply that he needs a car with good rear downforce. Nothing too ususual in this - I am also saying that going on what has been seen of Perez so far suggests he is the same. There are lots of instances of Button complaining on the radio last year about his rear's being shot while his fronts where not even at temp yet - also of him complaining about an oversteering car - and his perfering an understeering car. The McLaren is known to have great front downforce, and poor rear downforce, this makes for an oversteering car. As this years car was designed with another driver in mind, there is no reason to expect this years car to be much different to last years - so views on last year should still be vaild. However, if both drivers are suffering from this, there is now no reason why McLaren cannot develop the car in a different direction to previous years?

I would imagine that this is seen as me hammering them both as I have gone on record as stating neither driver interests me - as a McLaren fan however I have no desire in seeing them stuck in the midfield this year either. Just because I will not be cheering a Button/Perez victory doesn't mean that I won't be very happy with a McLaren winning as McLaren is bigger than either of the drivers, I was a McLaren fan before either of them joined, and will be a McLaren fan long after both of them have left. Regardless of peoples thoughts on the matter (myself included), Button and Perez are the McLaren drivers for this year so as a McLaren fan - we have an interest in their performance.

#217 Boxerevo

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 15:34

First of all,more Downforce "always" help.

But about Jeson Button,what i understood is that he really needs a predictable car for his predictable moves.

Looking his onboards,the "smooth" talk,is somewhat true because he doesn't like to "throw" the car,always on smooth lines too and being fast.

Edited by Boxerevo, 28 January 2013 - 15:34.


#218 Kingshark

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 02:53

How was it panic decision when Checo and Whitmarsh met in private during Hungarian GP, at the end of July?

Please ignore the whole Hamilton fanbase bitterness.

Regarding Jenson vs Checo -- what I'm really interested into is to compare their pace on a damp track. That is where both drivers seem to excel; in changing conditions.

#219 Harry

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 04:14

I do hope Perez is hungry as hell to gather the points to be infront of Jenson, and he should be able to as long as he aims for 1st place every time like he had been doing in 2012.

Edited by Harry, 29 January 2013 - 09:42.


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#220 elemist

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:46

The issue has nothing to do with EBD's. Its just a cheap shot to try and suggest that JB is only quick with a golden bullet.



He is quick when the car is a race winner, which means when the car has a lot of grip and great balance. The only times he was as quick or quicker than Hamilton was when the car was great. When it struggled so did he.

#221 Force Ten

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 14:56

He is quick when the car is a race winner,

...which incidentally is the most important time to be quick. Not everybody can do it. Ask Fisichella.

#222 Mc_Silver

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 20:48

Go Checo!

http://www.mclaren.c...racing-history/

#223 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 21:04

I think Sergio will beat Jenson easily reputation wise, and come the end of the season if not ahead on points will be close. In Quali i expect Sergio to win over the year, this will mean Jenson starting behind and having to overtake on track regularly, I dont think this will be possible without the teams intervention.

The reason I think Jenson will struggle is adaptability. Sergio already spent more time on track during the tests and by all accounts made a better fist of it. This is probably because of the increased time for setup changes pointing to Jensons narrow window of comfort. That combined with the 28s 'aggressive' development path and the pullrod change means it could be more hit or miss for Jenson than it is for Sergio at many tracks

Once Sergio is ahead on track we saw last year how composed and able he is (apart from the last few races when he was trying to prove something)

#224 trogggy

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 21:10

I think Sergio will beat Jenson easily reputation wise, and come the end of the season if not ahead on points will be close. In Quali i expect Sergio to win over the year, this will mean Jenson starting behind and having to overtake on track regularly, I dont think this will be possible without the teams intervention.

The reason I think Jenson will struggle is adaptability. Sergio already spent more time on track during the tests and by all accounts made a better fist of it. This is probably because of the increased time for setup changes pointing to Jensons narrow window of comfort. That combined with the 28s 'aggressive' development path and the pullrod change means it could be more hit or miss for Jenson than it is for Sergio at many tracks

Once Sergio is ahead on track we saw last year how composed and able he is (apart from the last few races when he was trying to prove something)

Interesting. You obviously rate Checo higher than Button's previous team-mate. Time will tell.

#225 Mc_Silver

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 21:21

I think if Button finds sweet-spot with Mp4-28 this year, he will be super quick. He needs very balanced car to show his real speed. That's why many people say he has narrower operating window than Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton. We'll see how adaptive Checo is. I don't expect too much from him at first few races but from Spain onwards I expect many podiums and 2 or 3 wins from him. It is also car related as well.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 10 March 2013 - 21:22.


#226 Neomaster121

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 21:23

Interesting. You obviously rate Checo higher than Button's previous team-mate. Time will tell.


i don't see how you got to that conclusion

he doesn't mention lewis once

and in fact lewis did all the things and more that he suggest perez could do

Lewis out qualified jenson regularly
and only lost to him on points once

anyways not to digress

i think perez will out qualify button, and luckily for button it will be down to perez "talent (if he has any)" rather than buttons lack off

#227 trogggy

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 21:29

i don't see how you got to that conclusion

he doesn't mention lewis once

and in fact lewis did all the things and more that he suggest perez could do

Lewis out qualified jenson regularly
and only lost to him on points once

anyways not to digress

i think perez will out qualify button, and luckily for button it will be down to perez "talent (if he has any)" rather than buttons lack off

1. I looked at what he wrote.
2. I looked at his previous posts, most of which are about a certain driver now employed by Mercedes and how great he is.
3. I employed a modicum of sarcasm in my reply.
HTH.

#228 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 22:00

Perez was immediately my second favourite driver from the day he almost beat Alonso. I think he was the best rookie since Lewis.

Button almost never overtook Lewis on track without external intervention
Button almost never qualified ahead of Lewis

I don't expect Checo to beat Jenson as comprehensively in quali but to still beat him meaning Jenson will be trying to overtake on track as with Lewis, with Lewis he hardly ever did and with Checo I don't see that changing because Sergios style is more cruise and collect than Lewis meaning Jenson has even less hope of his teammate having different strategies that he can gamble on trying plan B, they will both be on similar strategies and once Sergio starts ahead this kid ain't pulling over for his older teammate

I think Lewis and Sergio would yield better team results than Lewis Jenson combo but that's for another thread

#229 FSLIV

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 22:05

I haven't kept track of this thread but I will say this. Button's reputation is on the line this season more than any other season.

#230 undersquare

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 22:12

I see Perez as a relatively normal 23-year-old driver. I think he still has a lot to learn, lots of mistakes to make, and I haven't noticed any amazing pace unless his tyres have been working better than those around him.

I think Jense has him covered every which way - huge natural pace and any amount of accumulated wisdom. If he does have a weekend where he's struggling with the setup there's no Hamilton to panic him into trying big changes and losing his way, so I think this year he'll just bank his 8th or whatever it is and move on.

Just my prediction, I wait to see what actually happens.

#231 emburmak

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 22:47

JB definitely has a battle on his hands. SP is young, bushy-tailed, nothing to fear. For JB defeat at this young 'un hands will be career ending. Giving the normal excuses this time (tires, operating window, car not to his liking etc) just wont hold this time. I hope JB holds his end up. but SP has the potential to embarrass him. :cool:

#232 Peter3hg

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 06:59

JB definitely has a battle on his hands. SP is young, bushy-tailed, nothing to fear. For JB defeat at this young 'un hands will be career ending. Giving the normal excuses this time (tires, operating window, car not to his liking etc) just wont hold this time. I hope JB holds his end up. but SP has the potential to embarrass him. :cool:


Was Alonso's career ended when Hamilton beat him? Some people in this thread are such drama queens.

#233 garoidb

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:09

Was Alonso's career ended when Hamilton beat him? Some people in this thread are such drama queens.


While you are right that a defeat need not be career ending, I think Jenson may be at a stage of his career where only teams at McLaren's level or above would interest him. Race wins and the possibility (however slim) of anoher WDC are the name of the game. For example, I can't see him doing what DC did when he went to Red Bull. He has had his time in mid-grid teams.

That said, I expect Button to shade this, at least in 2013. Also, Perez is not a rookie. Two years with Sauber is probably the right amount of experience before taking an opportunity like this.

#234 Rinehart

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:50

Perez was immediately my second favourite driver from the day he almost beat Alonso. I think he was the best rookie since Lewis.

Button almost never overtook Lewis on track without external intervention
Button almost never qualified ahead of Lewis

I don't expect Checo to beat Jenson as comprehensively in quali but to still beat him meaning Jenson will be trying to overtake on track as with Lewis, with Lewis he hardly ever did and with Checo I don't see that changing because Sergios style is more cruise and collect than Lewis meaning Jenson has even less hope of his teammate having different strategies that he can gamble on trying plan B, they will both be on similar strategies and once Sergio starts ahead this kid ain't pulling over for his older teammate

I think Lewis and Sergio would yield better team results than Lewis Jenson combo but that's for another thread


:rolleyes: JB beat LH on points over 3 seasons together. Put a pin in your balloon and remind yourself which thread this is.

It's clear that JB needs a car/tyres combo that suits him. I expect it will more often than not and on that basis he'll have more than enough to beat Checo. Checos best chance is if the car is difficult. Although we don't actually know what Checo is like in that area - do we? One theory I have is that he's a carbon copy of a younger Button...

#235 bauss

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:14

JB is going to be on the other end of the JB-LH battle. He can't afford to judge his season by what he does vs Perez but what he does vs FA, Vettel and co.

I don't think Perez should be that much a threat, there is nothing yet that suggests he is really special or elite.

#236 SunnyENTP

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:35

JB definitely has a battle on his hands. SP is young, bushy-tailed, nothing to fear. For JB defeat at this young 'un hands will be career ending. Giving the normal excuses this time (tires, operating window, car not to his liking etc) just wont hold this time. I hope JB holds his end up. but SP has the potential to embarrass him. :cool:


If anything its Perez that has a battle on his


1 -JB is the number 1 driver and Whitmarshs favorite he would get more preference
2 - The car was built for Button so Perez as to adapt
3 - Perez is new to the team

The only way Perez can dream of beating Button is by hitting him with a stick.


#237 Harry

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:39

JB is going to be on the other end of the JB-LH battle. He can't afford to judge his season by what he does vs Perez but what he does vs FA, Vettel and co.

I don't think Perez should be that much a threat, there is nothing yet that suggests he is really special or elite.

http://youtu.be/K4wPqOslSQI?t=25s

:eek:

#238 Hairy

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:55

In all races in which both Button and Hamilton finished as team mates, Hamilton was 26-14 in front and even in his worst year, was 7-7. Let's not even go down to discussing the qualifying head to head.

That tells me Button isn't that good. I expect Perez to beat him.

#239 Burtros

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:26

I haven't kept track of this thread but I will say this. Button's reputation is on the line this season more than any other season.


EDIT:
Reply removed.

aghhhhhhh. Why did I bother? Searched FSLIV's posts. Hamilton fan. his whole post has a different context now and I'd probably have just ignored it.

Edited by Burtros, 11 March 2013 - 11:54.


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#240 Burtros

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:35

In all races in which both Button and Hamilton finished as team mates, Hamilton was 26-14 in front and even in his worst year, was 7-7. Let's not even go down to discussing the qualifying head to head.

That tells me Button isn't that good. I expect Perez to beat him.


This is a good example of why you really shouldnt base your prediction for a season on one cherry picked stat that suites your agenda.

Its tells him Buttons not a good driver. It tells us that Hairy's opinion on this particular subject really isnt worth very much.

Edited by Burtros, 11 March 2013 - 11:36.


#241 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:40

:rolleyes: JB beat LH on points over 3 seasons together. Put a pin in your balloon and remind yourself which thread this is.


Before jumping in with the indignation please consider this;

That post you are jumping on is a response. My original post does not even mention Hamilton. You dont want to address the original post and its clear suggestion that Perez will beat Button?

Eddie Irvin beat MS on points one season, what matters is how many seasons this happened. We dont remember Irvine as comparable to MS, why should Button be likewise comparable to Lewis for pure circumstantial statistical things. F1 is about winning things, these things are accounted for on a yearly basis.
In the 3 years Lewis monstered his teammate in qualifying, spent most of the time they were both on track infront, had more wins, more poles
The overall points difference can be attributed to dnfs and retirements. Unless Button can count on a similar reason I expect Perez to be ahead this season mainly because he should qualify ahead more and hold the position on track (IMHO)
Jenson has the experience and pace to see off Sergio, however I feel he will be severely handicapped this year by the 28s expected need for lots of lengthy setup changes in FP which will lead to more hit or miss qualis for Jenson as i perceive him to already have a narrower comfort window than Perez as evidenced by testing

#242 Burtros

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:46

Before jumping in with the indignation please consider this;

That post you are jumping on is a response. My original post does not even mention Hamilton. You dont want to address the original post and its clear suggestion that Perez will beat Button?

Eddie Irvin beat MS on points one season, what matters is how many seasons this happened. We dont remember Irvine as comparable to MS, why should Button be likewise comparable to Lewis for pure circumstantial statistical things. F1 is about winning things, these things are accounted for on a yearly basis.
In the 3 years Lewis monstered his teammate in qualifying, spent most of the time they were both on track infront, had more wins, more poles
The overall points difference can be attributed to dnfs and retirements. Unless Button can count on a similar reason I expect Perez to be ahead this season mainly because he should qualify ahead more and hold the position on track (IMHO)
Jenson has the experience and pace to see off Sergio, however I feel he will be severely handicapped this year by the 28s expected need for lots of lengthy setup changes in FP which will lead to more hit or miss qualis for Jenson as i perceive him to already have a narrower comfort window than Perez as evidenced by testing


Sorry, Eddie Irvine is comparable to JB?

What world are you living in?

Is it the world where Irvine didnt need Schumacher to break his leg and miss almost half a season in order to finish ahead of him in the championship?

The world where Irvine didnt need Salo to pull over and hand him vicotry in one race that year?

Edit - Damn: I didnt consider the possibility of you existing in a world where Jenson only beat Lewis in 2011 because Lewis broke his leg and sat out nearly half the races.

Edited by Burtros, 11 March 2013 - 11:50.


#243 ZooL

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:47

I expect Button to beat Perez quite easily. Perez hasn't shown me anything that makes him look special. Last year I thought Perez was awful, leaving the track left, right and centre.

I feel McLaren have been hoodwinked into falling for him when Perez's alternate strategies paid off (bit like Button might I add). When Perez went toe-to-toe with Kobayashi I thought Kobayashi looked better. All of Perez's best drives seemed to be when he benefitted from having a spare set of tyres because he failed to reach Q3. A characteristic of the Pirelli's unfortunately.

Perez is inherently a very aggressive driver, he got told to tone it down by Balassderi at Ferrari as they tried to coach him into making less mistakes. The boy has potential but he isn't ready yet from what I've seen.

Edited by ZooL, 11 March 2013 - 11:49.


#244 trogggy

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:50

Before jumping in with the indignation please consider this;

That post you are jumping on is a response. My original post does not even mention Hamilton. You dont want to address the original post and its clear suggestion that Perez will beat Button?

I'll address it.

Maybe he will. I'll be surprised if he matches him straight away, but until the end of Q3 on Saturday we won't have any meaningful way to compare them.

Now stop the silly Hamilton posts.

#245 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:04

Sorry, Eddie Irvine is comparable to JB?

What world are you living in?

Is it the world where Irvine didnt need Schumacher to break his leg and miss almost half a season in order to finish ahead of him in the championship?

The world where Irvine didnt need Salo to pull over and hand him vicotry in one race that year?

Edit - Damn: I didnt consider the possibility of you existing in a world where Jenson only beat Lewis in 2011 because Lewis broke his leg and sat out nearly half the races.


Is English your first language? Who said Irvine was comparable to Button?. Once you get past the idiosyncrasies of the English language you might notice that I considered comparing MS vs Irvine (scenario) to JB vs LH (scenario) - watch -
why should Button be likewise comparable to Lewis for pure circumstantial statistical things

i.e (xy) = (zk) does not mean y = k

Irvine broke his leg? so what? record books still say irvine beat MS that year, no?
Not much different from driverA beat driverB in year x but driverB retired 20 times due to 20 different random happenings
In this case only 'less worldly' people might say driverA was better than driverB because the stats say so

exaggerated example admittedly, but I rather think we have now established the principle


#246 trogggy

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:14

This thread has been quiet for a while - I think the reason is that neither Button fans nor Perez fans have anything much to say until we see them on track together.
I don't see what Eddie Irvine has to do with this thread.

#247 Burtros

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:16

Is English your first language? Who said Irvine was comparable to Button?. Once you get past the idiosyncrasies of the English language you might notice that I considered comparing MS vs Irvine (scenario) to JB vs LH (scenario) - watch -
why should Button be likewise comparable to Lewis for pure circumstantial statistical things

i.e (xy) = (zk) does not mean y = k

Irvine broke his leg? so what? record books still say irvine beat MS that year, no?
Not much different from driverA beat driverB in year x but driverB retired 20 times due to 20 different random happenings
In this case only 'less worldly' people might say driverA was better than driverB because the stats say so

exaggerated example admittedly, but I rather think we have now established the principle


Congrats, the old I am to stubborn to back track so I'll introduce massive confusion, play on language and its technicalities and use the smoke screen to make my escape!!

PS. If its the record books that matter, the Irvine finished ahead of MS in the championship twice, further eroding the point you now deny trying to make.

You made a clear attempt to link/liken JB and LHs time at McLaren to that of the Ferrari Partnership of the late 90's. Which is absurd.

Seriously, all you are doing is illustrating why its a good idea if only Hamilton fans capable of being pbjective post in here. The conclusions about the potential of this partnership will likley be way off as is evidenced here.

Perez will be doing exceptionally well to beat Button over the year.

Edited by Burtros, 11 March 2013 - 12:19.


#248 jjcale

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:17

I expect SP to surprise a few people with is aggression and with his overall driving style.... I dont think he will be as much of a JB style driver as people think.

I expect Button to beat Perez quite easily. Perez hasn't shown me anything that makes him look special. Last year I thought Perez was awful, leaving the track left, right and centre.

I feel McLaren have been hoodwinked into falling for him when Perez's alternate strategies paid off (bit like Button might I add). When Perez went toe-to-toe with Kobayashi I thought Kobayashi looked better. All of Perez's best drives seemed to be when he benefitted from having a spare set of tyres because he failed to reach Q3. A characteristic of the Pirelli's unfortunately.

Perez is inherently a very aggressive driver, he got told to tone it down by Balassderi at Ferrari as they tried to coach him into making less mistakes. The boy has potential but he isn't ready yet from what I've seen.


I agree with you except that I dont know how good he is so I dont know how easily JB will beat him ... but I would be very surprised if JB were to lose. - but I would be delighted to see it happen :p

#249 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:23

Congrats, the old I am to stubborn to back track so I'll introduce massive confusion, play on language and its technicalities and use the smoke screen to make my escape!!

PS. If its the record books that matter, the Irvine finished ahead of MS in the championship twice, further eroding the point you now deny trying to make.

You made a clear attempt to link/liken JB and LHs time at McLaren to that of the Ferrari Partnership of the late 90's. Which is absurd. Seriously, all you are doing is illustrating why its a good idea if only Hamilton fans capable of being pbjective post in here.


sounds like you know all the tricks doesnt it :wave:

why dont we stick to the thread topic and try avoid the pathetic ad hominem attacks, did you even notice my original post about Jenson vs Sergio?

#250 Burtros

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:28

sounds like you know all the tricks doesnt it :wave:

why dont we stick to the thread topic and try avoid the pathetic ad hominem attacks, did you even notice my original post about Jenson vs Sergio?


I did. Its just I didnt see anything worth repsonding too as it was abundantly clear from it that you dont have a balanced or unbiased opinion of Jenson. Which is fairly typical of quite a few Lewis fans.

Did you see the bit I said about it only being worth a Lewis fan posting in this thread if they can drop the bitterness and post something genuinly objective?