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Button v Perez - 2013


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#2901 jedioriginal

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 19:00


Perez is a crazy amateur. Should not be in Formula 1.

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#2902 redreni

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 19:35

Don't know really, however I do think if there was no kerb there people would view it differently. Basically it was a carbon copy of Grosjean Button the race before however there was a kerb there this time and no contact was made.

 

Well, yeah, people view it differently because if he'd pushed Grosjean off the track and onto grass in the braking zone it could only have gone two possible ways (1) Grosjean would have crashed or (2) Grosjean and Perez would have both crashed. So forcing somebody onto a kerb is not as bad as forcing somebody onto the grass, but that doesn't necessariily make it okay.

 

It always depends on the surface - if the normal line into that corner was to put two wheels over the kerb to open the entry to the corner, then Perez's move would have been fine - it's not forcing somebody off track if it is their normal line to put two wheels over a kerb. But if you look at the line everybody takes into Les Combes, as a matter of fact people keep off that kerb because the impact on braking performance if you have two wheels on the painted concrete means it's not worth it. When Perez draws alongside Grosjean, Grosjean holds the normal racing line and he wants to continue straight but he is forced onto the kerb by Perez, as a result of which he nearly loses it under braking and can't make the turn. The regulations are very clear, you can't crowd another driver beyond the track limits, and the track is defined as everything up to and including the white lines, not including the kerbs.

 

It may seem inconsistent when you see drivers running each other up onto the kerbs, or even onto the run-off, at corner exit without penalty, but the exit of the corner is a bit different inasmuch as the car on the outside sometimes does, and sometimes does not, have the right to a car's width of space. Often when there's run-off available at the exit people make bold moves on the outside that they wouldn't have made if the run-off wasn't available, and they're quite happy to run their car out wide as an alternative to yielding track position to the other car or not making the attempted overtaking move in the first place (Gutierrez's excursion at Blanchiment, for example). But at corner entry, before you've even got to the turn-in point, it's not even debatable, you absolutely have to leave room for the other car and you can't force the other car off, or squeeze him onto a kerb, or anything of the kind. So top marks to the stewards, and I hope they will enforce this consistently in future.

 

I thought Button maximised his race today, all the cars that finished ahead of him were considerably faster. No mistakes. Good consistent pace. Perez showed yet again, unfortunately, that if he finds himself stuck in traffic he struggles to negotiate the traffic cleanly. If he just passed Grosjean cleanly, rather than unnecessarily running him off the road and nearly causing a silly accident and winding up with a penalty, he could proably have recovered from his bad qualifying and brought home a reasonable haul of points.



#2903 sopa

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 19:48

 

 

This occured to me too. Then I looked back at 2011 and 2012 and in both seasons this partnership really comes on strong towards the height of summer and on towards the end of the year - maximising the package they have. OK in 2011 and 2012 he was fighting much nearer the front and winning races, and this year is different but 5th/6th is the level they are working at and in achieving them they are doing very well. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next few races too see if it becomes something we can call a trend.

 

 

Same was actually in 2005 and 2006 in BAR too. Became very consistent in the second half of the season, but mostly around 4th place mark.



#2904 Burtros

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 20:02

Same was actually in 2005 and 2006 in BAR too. Became very consistent in the second half of the season, but mostly around 4th place mark.

 

Very good point. Could be its alreadty a trend then. Makes the rest of this year something to 'look forward' too if so... and perhaps we can hope for a podium!

 

I think we should start lobbying for 30 races seasons!



#2905 Lights

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 20:06

Very good point. Could be its alreadty a trend then. Makes the rest of this year something to 'look forward' too if so... and perhaps we can hope for a podium!

 

I think we should start lobbying for 30 races seasons!

 

Well then he probably wouldn't have been world champion. 2009 is the ironic exception to this 'trend'.



#2906 BillBald

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 20:11

Same was actually in 2005 and 2006 in BAR too. Became very consistent in the second half of the season, but mostly around 4th place mark.

 

In 2010, Jenson struggled a little in the 2nd half of the season, he didn't seem to like the EBD upgrade.

 

In 2005, BAR/Honda was seriously disrupted in the first half by the disqualification and 3 race ban.

 

I don't think there's a pattern we can rely on, but I am expecting him to be consistent for the rest of this season, because the team seem to understand the car a bit better than they did.



#2907 Force Ten

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 20:23

In 2010, Jenson struggled a little in the 2nd half of the season, he didn't seem to like the EBD upgrade.

 

In 2005, BAR/Honda was seriously disrupted in the first half by the disqualification and 3 race ban.

 

I don't think there's a pattern we can rely on, but I am expecting him to be consistent for the rest of this season, because the team seem to understand the car a bit better than they did.

 

What we can take home with all it is - I think - if the car is more or less there so will Jenson Button be.



#2908 bub

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 13:46

Seems that was the maximum the car was capable of so good job by both guys. Surprised they were so much slower than a Torro Rosso and a Sauber though.



#2909 trogggy

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 13:50

It'll be interesting to see them race side-by-side - hopefully 2 decent starts tomorrow.



#2910 Peter Perfect

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 13:55

Seems that was the maximum the car was capable of so good job by both guys. Surprised they were so much slower than a Torro Rosso and a Sauber though.

:up: Yep, think the maximum was achieved (with Checo edging Button obviously). Both drivers have looked constant all weekend which hopefully bodes well for future races (maybe they've sorted out a decent base set-up now that works over a wide variety of track). Fingers crossed for the race. I assume they were both on the softs?



#2911 Clatter

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 13:56

Seems that was the maximum the car was capable of so good job by both guys. Surprised they were so much slower than a Torro Rosso and a Sauber though.

I wonder if they are running slightly more downforce. Bit of rain and they could be quids in.



#2912 Lights

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 14:02

McLaren clearly was the slowest car in Q3, P8&9 because of Vergnes mistake. Sergio did well to edge Jenson. It was always going to be close here and it turned out to be.

 

Hope their configuration works tomorrow. They're a bit on the low side on absolute top speed, but at least the cars look relatively stable and consistent.



#2913 Dalton007

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 14:20

If it rains, we should be good tomorrow. Good work by both drivers  :up:



#2914 WitnessX

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 14:45

Yep, Good solid job/result considering they were specifically concentrating on race set-up and tyres. They are in front of both Lotuses and a Mercedes. No mess-ups, although I don't quite understand why Jenson went out so early in Q3 for an aborted attempt.

To be honest I'm surprised that Jenson got so far up because all the free practice sessions and Q1 times indicate that Jenson was strong on the hard tyres and weak on the mediums...the opposite for Checo.

I think there are some cars in front which have less downforce. If so those cars are going to have problems once the "honeymoon" layer on the tyres goes. On the other hand cars at the back with new tyres at start.

I think its got to be a 2-stop, these mediums won't last long enough for one stop like last year (even if the pit time is longer). Jenson (M-H-H), Checo (M-M-H) or (M-H-M) at a guess.

Nice to see the hacksaw was back out in FP1 (they were cutting huge bits of floor off!)



#2915 Peter Perfect

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 16:08

Yep, Good solid job/result considering they were specifically concentrating on race set-up and tyres. They are in front of both Lotuses and a Mercedes. No mess-ups, although I don't quite understand why Jenson went out so early in Q3 for an aborted attempt.

To be honest I'm surprised that Jenson got so far up because all the free practice sessions and Q1 times indicate that Jenson was strong on the hard tyres and weak on the mediums...the opposite for Checo.

I think there are some cars in front which have less downforce. If so those cars are going to have problems once the "honeymoon" layer on the tyres goes. On the other hand cars at the back with new tyres at start.

I think its got to be a 2-stop, these mediums won't last long enough for one stop like last year (even if the pit time is longer). Jenson (M-H-H), Checo (M-M-H) or (M-H-M) at a guess.

Nice to see the hacksaw was back out in FP1 (they were cutting huge bits of floor off!)

Eh? Again?



#2916 nosecone

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 13:54

This weekend was a draw. In the practice no big differences between them and in the Quali p8/9. In the Race Button had the worse start and fall back to p12 but then he fought his way through to the front. Checo had a great start with not loosing to many position but lost his position to Button in the pit lane. At the end Perez was faster but couldn't get past. And because of that it was a draw


Edited by nosecone, 08 September 2013 - 14:01.


#2917 study

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 13:55

This weekend was a draw. In the practice no big differences between them and in the Quali p8/9. In the Race Button had the worse start and fall back to p12 but then he fought his way through to the front. Checo had a great start with not loosing to many position but lost his position to Button in the pit lane. At the end Perez was faster but couldn't get past. And because of that it was a draw

 

Yeah, he lost it in the pitlane, but Perez qualified in front, Perez was in front in the race, I thought the Mclaren way was that he should get the call.



#2918 Lights

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 14:00

Nice of Jenson to score a point but I see it as a draw. There was nothing between them in pace, not in qualifying and not in the race, and the pit stop made the difference.



#2919 bub

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 14:02

Perez seemed to race well except for maybe being responsible for his contact with Kimi. Getting jumped by Button via pit stops seemed harsh. Don't recall any obvious mistakes from JB  but not sure if was slower, as fast or faster than Checo on pace. Might have to rewatch (probably won't though).



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#2920 BillBald

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 14:04

Yeah, he lost it in the pitlane, but Perez qualified in front, Perez was in front in the race, I thought the Mclaren way was that he should get the call.

 

Jenson was originally told he would be pitting a lap later than Checo, then they changed the call.

 

We only heard Jenson's radio, so we don't know why. Maybe Checo or his RE didn't want to stop that lap, perhaps they thought it was too early. Jenson was going to have to stop within a couple of laps, to stop Grosjean getting the undercut.



#2921 coppilcus

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 14:07

Both drivers could not cope with any rival car at the race... as states by someone else earlier, if vergne doesn't make that mistake on qualy, McLaren would have been almost a an entire second behind pole... On Monza!

Unbelievable how McLaren undercut his own lead driver today...

#2922 Lights

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 14:29

Just seen a replay of the start and Perez was being really dumb there. He's lucky nothing happened or that would've ended his race there and then, plus changed his performance rating quite a bit.



#2923 nosecone

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 14:32

Just seen a replay of the start and Perez was being really dumb there. He's lucky nothing happened or that would've ended his race there and then, plus changed his performance rating quite a bit.

agreed. He moved over to the left side and was almost banging wheels with Raikkonen. Had he done this at the inside of the track they would have hit some others too, just like it was in Spa 2012. That was not really smart.



#2924 coppilcus

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 14:50

Alonso also swept the track from right to left, and two times... It was a tight move from Perez indeed, but didn't squeeze Kiki to his left, just appeared in front of him didn't expecting that, that's a racing incident for me.

Edited by coppilcus, 08 September 2013 - 14:56.


#2925 PNSD

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 14:52

I thought Perez was fine at the start, it's the aggressiveness you need at the start, and he did OK IMO. Nothing out of question, and not too lenient. 
 

Jenson raced well, but it could have been either driver scoring the point. The moment JEV was out the way, JB looked the quicker but overall they were even as could be. 

 

Pace was obviously quicker than the result suggested. Both guys spent most the race tucked right behind someone, and that seemed to kill the tyres. Grosjean on the other hand was rather conservative till the end when he really put the hammer down. 



#2926 nosecone

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 14:55

Also so also swept the track from right to left, and two times... It was a tight move from Perez indeed, but didn't squeeze Kiki to his left, just appeared in front of him didn't expecting that, that's a racing incident for me.

Yes agreed it was a racing incident. Nothing to be penalised.

 

I haven't seen it in a replay but i thought Kimi had to move to the left side to avoid the contact



#2927 fed up

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 14:58

Both drivers could not cope with any rival car at the race... as states by someone else earlier, if vergne doesn't make that mistake on qualy, McLaren would have been almost a an entire second behind pole... On Monza!

Unbelievable how McLaren undercut his own lead driver today...

 

It was disgusting and would have demotivated the young lad :down:



#2928 trogggy

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 14:58

Both drivers could not cope with any rival car at the race... as states by someone else earlier, if vergne doesn't make that mistake on qualy, McLaren would have been almost a an entire second behind pole... On Monza!

Unbelievable how McLaren undercut his own lead driver today...

Weren't you supposed to be backing up your last set of spurious claims in this thread with some links?

What happened?



#2929 Lights

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 15:01

Alonso also swept the track from right to left, and two times... It was a tight move from Perez indeed, but didn't squeeze Kiki to his left, just appeared in front of him didn't expecting that, that's a racing incident for me.

 

Oh yes he squeezed.

 

perezkimimonza.png



#2930 trogggy

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 15:01

It was disgusting and would have demotivated the young lad :down:

Why did Mclaren change their initial call to JB?  He was told to push for a lap because SP was pitting, then last minute told to come in.

Sorry if that means having to think about it.



#2931 coppilcus

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 15:12

Weren't you supposed to be backing up your last set of spurious claims in this thread with some links?
What happened?


Spurious... What a harsh term!

Couldn't do my homework, an apologise for that... By pm I will, far ahead on the subject to do it now and disturb the thread.

#2932 speng

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 15:15

Oh yes he squeezed.

 

perezkimimonza.png

There is nothing wrong here. This is the start of the race and it happens, it was not illegal. It is called jockeying for position. Look at Vettel putting the squeeze on Webber


Edited by speng, 08 September 2013 - 15:16.


#2933 Boxerevo

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 15:21

I don't know about undercut,but pit stop looked slow.

 

He was very very close to the car ahead of him in the pit stop,and got out far behind.

 

I didn't looked any data,just my memory watching the race,i can be wrong.


Edited by Boxerevo, 08 September 2013 - 15:23.


#2934 nosecone

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 15:23

There is nothing wrong here. This is the start of the race and it happens, it was not illegal. It is called jockeying for position. Look at Vettel putting the squeeze on Webber

didn't KR actually touch the grass? :wave:  I think it was even closer than in this pic, because Per moved over even more just inches away from KRs frontwing.  ;)


Edited by nosecone, 08 September 2013 - 15:23.


#2935 selespeed

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 15:25

I don't know about undercut,but pit stop looked slow.

 

He was very very close to the car ahead of him in the pit stop,and got out far behind.

 

I didn't looked any data,just my memory watching the race,i can be wrong.

 

 

his pitstop time was 1,5 sec slower than ricciardo



#2936 speng

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 15:25

didn't KR actually touch the grass? :wave:  I think it was even closer than in this pic, because Per moved over even more just inches away from KRs frontwing.  ;)

ok, you think.


Edited by speng, 08 September 2013 - 15:26.


#2937 techspeed

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 15:26

Unbelievable how McLaren undercut his own lead driver today...

 

McLaren care more about where both of their drivers are in relation to the cars around them and preventing Button being overtaken on the undercut by Grosjean while it makes no difference to Perez in relation to others when he pits, so getting both cars as far forward as they can is much more important than leaving Button out there to be overtaken to appease Button haters. If they didn't have problems with the front wheels on Perezs pitstop he would have come out ahead, or are you going to claim the pit crew deliberately messed up to swap the cars over?



#2938 coppilcus

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 15:37

McLaren care more about where both of their drivers are in relation to the cars around them and preventing Button being overtaken on the undercut by Grosjean while it makes no difference to Perez in relation to others when he pits, so getting both cars as far forward as they can is much more important than leaving Button out there to be overtaken to appease Button haters. If they didn't have problems with the front wheels on Perezs pitstop he would have come out ahead, or are you going to claim the pit crew deliberately messed up to swap the cars over?


Sure, a second difference on the pit stop done that... Grosjean was nowhere near both McLaren cars, and got passed Perez on lap 40, the young lad pitted ten laps earlier.

Edited by coppilcus, 08 September 2013 - 15:38.


#2939 trogggy

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 15:38

Spurious... What a harsh term!

Couldn't do my homework, an apologise for that... By pm I will, far ahead on the subject to do it now and disturb the thread.

Eh?  Pm?

You said you were going to post them.  I'm not the only person who said they were waiting to see them.

They were challenged, you promised evidence, it hasn't turned up - if you're complaining about 'spurious' then back them up, as you said you would.  It's only a page or so back, nothing's changed.



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#2940 coppilcus

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 15:45

didn't KR actually touch the grass? :wave:  I think it was even closer than in this pic, because Per moved over even more just inches away from KRs frontwing.  ;)


Alonso "squeezed" Webber also after all the pitstops, pushed him to the grass and chopped webber's front right endplate... He should be penalised also, wasn't completely ahead of the Australian and didn't leave a cars width between them...

Come on, those were racing incidents and the one between kimi and Sergio was a tougher situation because of the start.

#2941 Lights

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 15:51

Alonso "squeezed" Webber also after all the pitstops, pushed him to the grass and chopped webber's front right endplate... He should be penalised also, wasn't completely ahead of the Australian and didn't leave a cars width between them...

Come on, those were racing incidents and the one between kimi and Sergio was a tougher situation because of the start.

 

That's really not getting it. The start isn't 'tougher' per se, it's way more dangerous. I thought Grosjean showed everyone a year ago at Spa that sweeping from one side of the track to the other right before the braking zone is a big no-no. He got a race ban for it and rightly so. Just because nothing happened this time doesn't mean it's all fine and well.



#2942 coppilcus

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 16:05

That's really not getting it. The start isn't 'tougher' per se, it's way more dangerous. I thought Grosjean showed everyone a year ago at Spa that sweeping from one side of the track to the other right before the braking zone is a big no-no. He got a race ban for it and rightly so. Just because nothing happened this time doesn't mean it's all fine and well.


Can't even get close to compare both situations... Far dissimilar between them by the track, corner, speed and space arriving at the braking zone... And also the position of all the cars from the point of visibility from the driver making that manoeuvre; Perez was ahead of Kimi and swept one racing line... grosjean was surrounded by cars and still swept the entire track involving several racing lines.

It's dangerous, yes, but quite more difficult than any other scenario of a race, everyone is looking to gain positions on cold tires and full fuel tanks...

#2943 Lights

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 16:07

Can't even get close to compare both situations... Far dissimilar between them by the track, corner, speed and space arriving at the braking zone... And also the position of all the cars from the point of visibility from the driver making that manoeuvre; Perez was ahead of Kimi and swept one racing line... grosjean was surrounded by cars and still swept the entire track involving several racing lines.

It's dangerous, yes, but quite more difficult than any other scenario of a race, everyone is looking to gain positions on cold tires and full fuel tanks...

 

No, just no. He wasn't ahead. Look at the picture. That's not ahead, that's a part of a car next to a part of a car. 

Yes, it is more difficult for the drivers. Which is why it's stupid to make a move like that.



#2944 coppilcus

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 16:22

No, just no. He wasn't ahead. Look at the picture. That's not ahead, that's a part of a car next to a part of a car.

Yes, it is more difficult for the drivers. Which is why it's stupid to make a move like that.

... just by the last fin of te rear end plate of the McLaren and the vertice of the right end plate of the Finns front wing, that's been saw millions of times at the starts, several of them this season.

The crash of DiResta on the back of Jenson was far more dangerous and driving prone to be looked by stewarding than Perez move...

Edited by coppilcus, 08 September 2013 - 16:23.


#2945 Lights

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 16:42

... just by the last fin of te rear end plate of the McLaren and the vertice of the right end plate of the Finns front wing, that's been saw millions of times at the starts, several of them this season.

The crash of DiResta on the back of Jenson was far more dangerous and driving prone to be looked by stewarding than Perez move...

 

Yes, but then again I can't really go on here to say how lucky Di Resta was. I make the point about it and in this thread because I feel Perez gets away too often with these things. 



#2946 BillBald

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 21:44

I don't know about undercut,but pit stop looked slow.

 

He was very very close to the car ahead of him in the pit stop,and got out far behind.

 

I didn't looked any data,just my memory watching the race,i can be wrong.

 

Yes, Checo's pitstop was slow, but Jenson had also done an amazing outlap. Jenson was about 3 seconds behind Ricciardo when he pitted, and when Ricciardo came out of the pits he was less than a second ahead, even though Dan's pitstop was actually slightly faster.

 

Look at the gap between Lewis and Jenson after Jenson emerges from the pits. Lewis at the time was setting a succession of fastest laps, and Jenson actually closed the gap in the last 2 sectors.

 

Perhaps Checo's RE was relaxed about allowing Jenson to pit first, because he really wasn't expecting that kind of pace.


Edited by BillBald, 08 September 2013 - 21:59.


#2947 Collective

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 22:18

I don't think the call had much to do, it was de 4+ second pit stop when Jenson's was high 2s. That's why Jenson could squeeze between Checo and Ricciardo.

#2948 BillBald

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 22:29

I don't think the call had much to do, it was de 4+ second pit stop when Jenson's was high 2s. That's why Jenson could squeeze between Checo and Ricciardo.

 

Checo lost 1.5 secs to Jenson in the pit stop, according to F1 Fanatic:

http://www.f1fanatic...-and-pit-stops/

Jenson Button     24.450

Sergio Perez       25.933

 

Jenson went from being more than 2 seconds behind Checo, to more than a second in front of him.

Compare their outlaps:

http://en.mclarenf-1...on#.Uiz3tKyFZBE

Jenson   1:48.413

Sergio    1:51.118


Edited by BillBald, 08 September 2013 - 22:30.


#2949 Lights

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:08

Sergio is strong this weekend. Have a feeling he will out-qualify Jenson.



#2950 maverick69

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:13

Sergio is strong this weekend. Have a feeling he will out-qualify Jenson.

He needs to! Because if he doesn't he will be getting his cards IMHO.

 

Since the Honda deal McLaren clearly don't need his money anymore....... they need his inconsistency even less......