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Button v Perez - 2013


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#3151 Tron

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 14:58

A disaster car? It's not great but it's not exactly a 2007 Honda. It's the 5th best car on the grid and plenty of points can be scored in it, something Jenson is showing basically any weekend where McLaren doesn't screw up. Sergio however is nowhere near his points total. That has little to do with the car. If anything, Jenson's history shows that he performs better in a great car relatively to his teammates.

 

Fair enough, it's not a disaster car, but it is a disaster compared to McLaren's expectations?

 

I'll still stay to my view, that if the car was better, Perez's seat wouldn't be in question by the fans, as he would have more points.

 

And to support my arguement, look at Jenson's first season in Benetton in 2001, terrible car, was beaten on points by Fisichella, and it really didn't show what he's worth today. :smoking:


Edited by Tron, 08 October 2013 - 14:59.


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#3152 Force Ten

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:34

And to support my arguement, look at Jenson's first season in Benetton in 2001, terrible car, was beaten on points by Fisichella, and it really didn't show what he's worth today. :smoking:

No but Ralf Schumacher was considered to be one of the best drivers in 1999 season and Jenson didn't do too bad against him in 2000



#3153 Burtros

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 17:39



Fair enough, it's not a disaster car, but it is a disaster compared to McLaren's expectations?

 

I'll still stay to my view, that if the car was better, Perez's seat wouldn't be in question by the fans, as he would have more points.

 

And to support my arguement, look at Jenson's first season in Benetton in 2001, terrible car, was beaten on points by Fisichella, and it really didn't show what he's worth today. :smoking:

 

great comment. I'll down my knife for a while based on that thought.



#3154 TennisUK

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 18:56

great comment. I'll down my knife for a while based on that thought.

This year's Mclaren isn't great but it isn't anything like as bad as the 2001 Bennetton - Fisichella's incredible performance at Spa notwithstanding.  They were often the slowest cars apart form the Minardis from memory. Mclaren have the 5th best car which has shown itself capable (on occasion) of mixing it with the Mercs and Ferraris where circumstances allow.



#3155 Lights

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:40

Fair enough, it's not a disaster car, but it is a disaster compared to McLaren's expectations?

 

I'll still stay to my view, that if the car was better, Perez's seat wouldn't be in question by the fans, as he would have more points.

 

And to support my arguement, look at Jenson's first season in Benetton in 2001, terrible car, was beaten on points by Fisichella, and it really didn't show what he's worth today. :smoking:

Sure, based on McLaren's more recent history it's a disaster. But in reality it is not impossible for Perez to show anything in it. Something incredibly tough to do in the Benetton of 2001, which for large parts of the year was one of the slowest cars on the grid. The 2001 Benetton, 2007 Honda and 2008 Honda, those are truly terrible. But yeah, you already pointed out that it wasn't really about the word. If the car was better Perez would have indeed scored more points, but don't forget that likewise Jenson would.

 

Thing is, Jenson admitted himself that he was a completely different driver in 2001. A bit naive, he didn't have the same mindset and commitment as now. Note how Jenson just spent 2 years racing cars before he came into F1. Sergio had a much more extensive pre-F1 career and is molded very differently. Nowadays a rookie with Jenson's 2001 mindset and experience wouldn't survive half a season in F1.



#3156 Tron

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:48

This year's Mclaren isn't great but it isn't anything like as bad as the 2001 Bennetton - Fisichella's incredible performance at Spa notwithstanding.  They were often the slowest cars apart form the Minardis from memory. Mclaren have the 5th best car which has shown itself capable (on occasion) of mixing it with the Mercs and Ferraris where circumstances allow.

 

No ways they were fighting with Minardi, just skemed through the review to see where that came from. The Benetton of then was the fifth to sixth fastest, and only reason why it's points are so slim to McLaren of 2013, is that then, only the top six finishers got points and at less margin.

 

Also that Benetton got two podiums, yes, both for Fisichella and more than Jenson, and more than the present McLaren BTW.  ;)

 

Sure, based on McLaren's more recent history it's a disaster. But in reality it is not impossible for Perez to show anything in it. Something incredibly tough to do in the Benetton of 2001, which for large parts of the year was one of the slowest cars on the grid. The 2001 Benetton, 2007 Honda and 2008 Honda, those are truly terrible. But yeah, you already pointed out that it wasn't really about the word. If the car was better Perez would have indeed scored more points, but don't forget that likewise Jenson would.

 

Thing is, Jenson admitted himself that he was a completely different driver in 2001. A bit naive, he didn't have the same mindset and commitment as now. Note how Jenson just spent 2 years racing cars before he came into F1. Sergio had a much more extensive pre-F1 career and is molded very differently. Nowadays a rookie with Jenson's 2001 mindset and experience wouldn't survive half a season in F1.

 

You guys are coming across more and more as being obsessed in just bashing Perez by twisting and mangling every view and possibility. :rolleyes: 


Edited by Tron, 08 October 2013 - 19:52.


#3157 Lights

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:56

You guys are coming across more and more as being obsessed in just bashing Perez by twisting and mangling every view and possibility. :rolleyes:

 

Please quote me on how exactly I bash Perez in my post.



#3158 Tron

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 20:14

Please quote me on how exactly I bash Perez in my post.

 

Most of you are continously nit picking to add to your case for him to be dropped by McLaren and that he isn't a good enough driver.

Yes, that is bashing, albiet politely, but you're dogging him down while the past is full of drivers that had a bad season in a bad car, then raised their performance.

 

I mean no disrepect towards you, but this is in general, and people need to recognize drivers are human beings like you and me, and we all go through bad patches in our life, often due to circumstances physchological and due unmanageble surroundings. In this case, Perez under pressure to preform in a terrible car to McLaren's standards.

 

I recall Senna back in 1992 almost had his ass handed to him by Berger when the McLaren of then was on decline, Mr 3 times expereinced world champion and pole miester, and that is life.

As did Mansell in his first years at Lotus where Elio often kept him behind on the track and on points.

 

That is my argument. One bad season should not reflect a drivers entire career. Perez proved his teeth last year with some outstanding drives, sure, Malaysia was in the rain, but it was also for everyone else there, and yes, tyres played a part in Canada, but everyone else was using the same tyres, and in Monza if he had a few more laps, the hostility towards him in this thread would be gentler.



#3159 Burtros

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 20:30

Most of you are continously nit picking to add to your case for him to be dropped by McLaren and that he isn't a good enough driver.

Yes, that is bashing, albiet politely, but you're dogging him down while the past is full of drivers that had a bad season in a bad car, then raised their performance.

 

I mean no disrepect towards you, but this is in general, and people need to recognize drivers are human beings like you and me, and we all go through bad patches in our life, often due to circumstances physchological and due unmanageble surroundings. In this case, Perez under pressure to preform in a terrible car to McLaren's standards.

 

I recall Senna back in 1992 almost had his ass handed to him by Berger when the McLaren of then was on decline, Mr 3 times expereinced world champion and pole miester, and that is life.

As did Mansell in his first years at Lotus where Elio often kept him behind on the track and on points.

 

That is my argument. One bad season should not reflect a drivers entire career. Perez proved his teeth last year with some outstanding drives, sure, Malaysia was in the rain, but it was also for everyone else there, and yes, tyres played a part in Canada, but everyone else was using the same tyres, and in Monza if he had a few more laps, the hostility towards him in this thread would be gentler.

 

I'll run with your argument that people could be being too quick to judge Sergio, but not that people are talking Perez down. Theres a good analysis being done after most races and for the large part, most comments are backed up. A lot of it is to do with the performances in Malaysia etc last year. Hes not done anything like it again. He certainly isnt the Perez he was summer 2012 if you ask me. Hes recovered from the terrible end to last year but not reached those highs of the summer again. Thats led to dissapointment in him for some. Hes done just about a good enough job and thats all, and he wouldnt have got the drive if thats all he was capable off in the first place.

 

Im willing to consider that Sergio is suffering more proportionally than Jenson due to the underachievement of the car and team this year - coming into a new team like McLaren with high expectations and getting a dog must be hard on both him and those around him. Its his first team move in F1, all these ideas support him a little and, ok, we havent seen that view here too often.

 

Its also worth bearing in mind the availabliity of a certain Nico Hulkenberg means people see a better option than Sergio available. It alters the view held somewhat. Once McLaren have messed up signing Hulkenberg and hes confirmed with Lotus, Sergio will have pressure off and to be honest, after what you said, I dont feel so bad about having him in the car in 2014.


Edited by Burtros, 08 October 2013 - 20:30.


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#3160 PEW

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 20:48

I hate to continue the off topic but I would love to know where fisi scored a second podium.  



#3161 Tron

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 20:53

I hate to continue the off topic but I would love to know where fisi scored a second podium.  

 

In my imagination. LOL :rotfl:

 

You are indeed right, and I totally got mixed up there. Apologies.

 

Fisi only got one podium in 2001.

 

Sorry for the silly error.


Edited by Tron, 08 October 2013 - 20:54.


#3162 trogggy

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 20:59

Most of you are continously nit picking to add to your case for him to be dropped by McLaren and that he isn't a good enough driver.

Name names and quote quotes please.

I can't see him being dropped, because I can't see a sure alternative that would be better -  there are maybes and possibilities, yes, but they've invested a year in SP, and it looks too soon to decide he's not going to make it.

But why would Button fans in general be looking for Perez to be dropped?  At the moment it looks like if next year's Mclaren is a stonker there's only one driver who'll come out on top. That might change, but it hasn't done yet.


Edited by trogggy, 08 October 2013 - 21:01.


#3163 Lights

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 21:04

Most of you are continously nit picking to add to your case for him to be dropped by McLaren and that he isn't a good enough driver.

Yes, that is bashing, albiet politely, but you're dogging him down while the past is full of drivers that had a bad season in a bad car, then raised their performance.

 

I mean no disrepect towards you, but this is in general, and people need to recognize drivers are human beings like you and me, and we all go through bad patches in our life, often due to circumstances physchological and due unmanageble surroundings. In this case, Perez under pressure to preform in a terrible car to McLaren's standards.

 

I recall Senna back in 1992 almost had his ass handed to him by Berger when the McLaren of then was on decline, Mr 3 times expereinced world champion and pole miester, and that is life.

As did Mansell in his first years at Lotus where Elio often kept him behind on the track and on points.

 

That is my argument. One bad season should not reflect a drivers entire career. Perez proved his teeth last year with some outstanding drives, sure, Malaysia was in the rain, but it was also for everyone else there, and yes, tyres played a part in Canada, but everyone else was using the same tyres, and in Monza if he had a few more laps, the hostility towards him in this thread would be gentler.

 

You have some good points but the thing is that I don't see any signs of Perez actually going through a bad patch. Sure McLaren isn't as good as people expected, but with that expectations for him also change: nobody is requesting him to score podiums. He seems happy, he has the full support from McLaren, and his seat hasn't been in real danger at any time this season. It's not like Massa's situation at Ferrari year after year, or Jenson's at Benetton in 2001. Who would you rather have as a teamboss when you're going through a bad patch: Whitmarsh or Briatore? I don't 

 

Sure, Perez drove some amazing races last year but like it or not, this year is his first serious test against a known quantity: Button. The car situation hasn't changed that much for him: the general performance of Sauber '12 is pretty comparable to that of McLaren '13. If anything, despite it being a bad year for McLaren, it's still relatively better than the Sauber he drove last year. He just has to prove he still got what he showed last year at times, because if he continues the way it's going now he's not going to last more than 2 years at McLaren, just like Kovalainen '08-'09. And that is not to bash him, it's just the harsh reality of F1. Button was also replaced at Benetton/Renault after 2 years, despite of him improving his performance by quite a bit in his second year. Of course only the future will tell if he will improve again to the level we assessed him on in his Sauber days.



#3164 Rinehart

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:49

This year's Mclaren isn't great but it isn't anything like as bad as the 2001 Bennetton - Fisichella's incredible performance at Spa notwithstanding.  They were often the slowest cars apart form the Minardis from memory. Mclaren have the 5th best car which has shown itself capable (on occasion) of mixing it with the Mercs and Ferraris where circumstances allow.

 

Its worth pointing out too that currently there are 4 top teams in terms of a cycle of competitive establishment and resources - McLaren, Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes, so there are absolutely no guarantees on being anything other than 4th best - McLaren are currently 5th best - its only really Lotus that are punching one car above their weight and McLaren one car below. Yet because of Red Bulls performance, it seems like a disaster.



#3165 TennisUK

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 13:32

No ways they were fighting with Minardi, just skemed through the review to see where that came from. The Benetton of then was the fifth to sixth fastest, and only reason why it's points are so slim to McLaren of 2013, is that then, only the top six finishers got points and at less margin.

 

Also that Benetton got two podiums, yes, both for Fisichella and more than Jenson, and more than the present McLaren BTW.  ;)

Off topic but that's not correct.  Benetton got one podium in 2001 - at Spa which was a freak result (which I alluded to).  If it hadn't been for that race they would have been 8th in the championship with Jaguar, Prost and Arrows just in front of Minardi.  They were desperately slow because of the new for 2001 wide angle Renault which was massively down on power.  While it's true only the top 6 scored points in those days it's also worth remembering there were a lot more retirements.  In the three (yes only three) races in whcih they scored points in 2001 there were 11, 12 and 9 (Spa) retirements.  Other than Spa they were un-questionbly far worse performing than Mclaren are this year. Early season qualifying normally put them around 16th-19th- just ahead of the Minardis.



#3166 tokyonagaremono

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:47

I for one was expecting JB to put a lot more clear blue water between himself and Perez this season - I hope he can use the final run in to assert a bit of dominance. Perez has done OK for a first season in a new team which, frankly, didn't deliver much of a car, so really I'd expect Button by now, at this stage in the season when things have settled down a bit, to be way, way ahead. I am more than a bit surprised to see the new boy not far off the senior. Unfortunately, I think it bodes ill for JB next year - unless he's able to pull his socks up from Suzuka onwards..



#3167 apoka

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:22

Its worth pointing out too that currently there are 4 top teams in terms of a cycle of competitive establishment and resources - McLaren, Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes, so there are absolutely no guarantees on being anything other than 4th best - McLaren are currently 5th best - its only really Lotus that are punching one car above their weight and McLaren one car below. Yet because of Red Bulls performance, it seems like a disaster.

 

McLaren going from 1st to 5th fastest - and not even close to the top 4 - was a big surprise for me. (Keep in mind that it were mostly operational errors, which cost them lots of points in 2012.)



#3168 Force Ten

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:32

I for one was expecting JB to put a lot more clear blue water between himself and Perez this season - I hope he can use the final run in to assert a bit of dominance. Perez has done OK for a first season in a new team which, frankly, didn't deliver much of a car, so really I'd expect Button by now, at this stage in the season when things have settled down a bit, to be way, way ahead. I am more than a bit surprised to see the new boy not far off the senior. Unfortunately, I think it bodes ill for JB next year - unless he's able to pull his socks up from Suzuka onwards..

Yes, he only more than twice ahead in the points. Some people are hard to please.



#3169 P123

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:08

I for one was expecting JB to put a lot more clear blue water between himself and Perez this season - I hope he can use the final run in to assert a bit of dominance. Perez has done OK for a first season in a new team which, frankly, didn't deliver much of a car, so really I'd expect Button by now, at this stage in the season when things have settled down a bit, to be way, way ahead. I am more than a bit surprised to see the new boy not far off the senior. Unfortunately, I think it bodes ill for JB next year - unless he's able to pull his socks up from Suzuka onwards..

 

Have you been watching a different season?  I'd say Perez is as expected in quali V JB, but he's way below expectations in the races.



#3170 GlenP

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:11

I for one was expecting JB to put a lot more clear blue water between himself and Perez this season - I hope he can use the final run in to assert a bit of dominance. Perez has done OK for a first season in a new team which, frankly, didn't deliver much of a car, so really I'd expect Button by now, at this stage in the season when things have settled down a bit, to be way, way ahead. I am more than a bit surprised to see the new boy not far off the senior. Unfortunately, I think it bodes ill for JB next year - unless he's able to pull his socks up from Suzuka onwards..

What ARE you talking about? Jenson has way more than double Sergio's points. I'd call that way ahead, no?



#3171 trogggy

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:11

I for one was expecting JB to put a lot more clear blue water between himself and Perez this season - I hope he can use the final run in to assert a bit of dominance. Perez has done OK for a first season in a new team which, frankly, didn't deliver much of a car, so really I'd expect Button by now, at this stage in the season when things have settled down a bit, to be way, way ahead. I am more than a bit surprised to see the new boy not far off the senior. Unfortunately, I think it bodes ill for JB next year - unless he's able to pull his socks up from Suzuka onwards..

Good point.

Perez has scored 23 points this year, and is 13th in the championship, behind 2 Force Indias and a Sauber.  What do you think would constitute 'clear blue water' between him and Button?

20 points?

Double the points?

More?

Button in wdc contention?

Something else?

 

Button's obviously in trouble...I just can't figure out what criteria to use to claim that.


Edited by trogggy, 10 October 2013 - 11:12.


#3172 P123

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:17

Good point.

Perez has scored 23 points this year, and is 13th in the championship, behind 2 Force Indias and a Sauber.  What do you think would constitute 'clear blue water' between him and Button?

20 points?

Double the points?

More?

Button in wdc contention?

Something else?

 

Button's obviously in trouble...I just can't figure out what criteria to use to claim that.

 

Perhaps Tokyo means in terms of raw pace?  But even then, that is translating into a fairly siezeable points gap.  If SP was the future of McLaren he'd have been troubling JB a lot more than he has been so far this season.



#3173 trogggy

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:27

Perhaps.  There has to be something, he wouldn't just post something silly.



#3174 Buttoneer

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:30

Good old TruePace

 

It's always there somewhere and it's always someone else who has more.



#3175 Lights

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:43

Sergio does look very close to Jenson in many weekends. The problem for Sergio is that this won't bring you even close to beating him.



#3176 GlenP

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:59

Er. F1 isn't a single lap formula.



#3177 Cesc

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:39

Coming fresh to the discussion.

 

I'm deeply disappointed with Perez. Last year he had some brilliant results, but now I do have the feeling that they were more down to the excelent tire managemtn of Sauber than by his "sensational" skills. 58 to 23 points vs. Button is simply too much, specialy considering that Button is, although an excelent driver, not a super star like Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton or Kimi, the top4 group. So he came as a Hamilton replacement and, although very few expected him to match Lewis performances, I definetely was not expecting him to be so far from Button. Imagine where Lewins would be in the standings? something like 80 points? That would look different, not very good, but not at Force India level at least.


Edited by Cesc, 10 October 2013 - 12:40.


#3178 PARAZAR

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:51

Coming fresh to the discussion.

 

I'm deeply disappointed with Perez. Last year he had some brilliant results, but now I do have the feeling that they were more down to the excelent tire managemtn of Sauber than by his "sensational" skills. 58 to 23 points vs. Button is simply too much, specialy considering that Button is, although an excelent driver, not a super star like Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton or Kimi, the top4 group. So he came as a Hamilton replacement and, although very few expected him to match Lewis performances, I definetely was not expecting him to be so far from Button. Imagine where Lewins would be in the standings? something like 80 points? That would look different, not very good, but not at Force India level at least.

Let's not bring Lewis into this. Anything we may say about Lewis at this point is completely hypothetical.



#3179 trogggy

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:52


 

 

Imagine where Lewins would be in the standings? something like 80 points?

 

 

Based on the 3 years' data available he'd probably have more points.  Or less points.  Or about the same.  ;)
 

 



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#3180 bub

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:55

Sergio does look very close to Jenson in many weekends. 

 

I agree. I think the difference in points is a lot bigger than the difference in performance.



#3181 GlenP

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:01

I agree. I think the difference in points is a lot bigger than the difference in performance.

How are you defining performance then?



#3182 tokyonagaremono

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:02

What ARE you talking about? Jenson has way more than double Sergio's points. I'd call that way ahead, no?

 

 

You're no mathematician then. When one driver (Perez) has not many points at all, it isn't at all hard for the other (Butt) to have double or treble. If Perez had one point and Button two or three would the argument 'ah, but he's got double the points, he's hammering him!' hold much water? Well, 25 to 60 under today's scoring system and with so many races behind us isn't too different to 1-2. They are very close. One lucky weekend for Perez and there'd be almost nothing at all in it. 14 races in, Button should really be 70, 80 or more points ahead by now imo (that's a 5-point-per-race difference, not much to ask), what with him being the incumbent driver AND his many years' experience. Look at Vettel-272 Webber 130, Kimi-167 Romain-72 and FA-195 Massa-89; clear blue water. I'd expected Button to dominate like that, not for them to be pretty evenly matched like di Resta and Sutil or Ricciardo and Vergne.  

 

Either JB has underperformed, or SP has overperformed, or a bit of both. It's the only explanation for their being so close.



#3183 bub

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:04

How are you defining performance then?

 

How well they drive considering the circumstances of the races. 



#3184 Lights

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:07

I agree. I think the difference in points is a lot bigger than the difference in performance.

 

I don't. Because being close in many weekends, but very far away in other weekends, can still mean the gap between them in the standings is very big.



#3185 PNSD

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:08

How well they drive considering the circumstances of the races. 

 

Provide an example where the points did not reflect this?



#3186 bub

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:09

I don't. Because being close in many weekends, but very far away in other weekends, can still mean the gap between them in the standings is very big.

 

Well that's exactly what has happened.



#3187 trogggy

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:14

 

 

Either JB has underperformed, or SP has overperformed, or a bit of both. It's the only explanation for their being so close.

There's another alternative.

They're not close.



#3188 bub

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:15

Provide an example where the points did not reflect this?

 

What do you mean exactly? 

 

I would say the season as a whole is an example. JB has more than twice as many points but hasn't appeared more than twice as good imo.

For example somebody can finish 1 sec behind another in every race (very close) but if they are always finishing 1st and 2nd or 9th and 10th or 10th and 11th etc, the points gap will be pretty big (i.e. the points gap will be bigger than the performance gap).


Edited by bub, 10 October 2013 - 13:29.


#3189 Lights

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:16

You're no mathematician then. When one driver (Perez) has not many points at all, it isn't at all hard for the other (Butt) to have double or treble. If Perez had one point and Button two or three would the argument 'ah, but he's got double the points, he's hammering him!' hold much water? Well, 25 to 60 under today's scoring system and with so many races behind us isn't too different to 1-2. They are very close. One lucky weekend for Perez and there'd be almost nothing at all in it. 14 races in, Button should really be 70, 80 or more points ahead by now imo (that's a 5-point-per-race difference, not much to ask), what with him being the incumbent driver AND his many years' experience. Look at Vettel-272 Webber 130, Kimi-167 Romain-72 and FA-195 Massa-89; clear blue water. I'd expected Button to dominate like that, not for them to be pretty evenly matched like di Resta and Sutil or Ricciardo and Vergne.  

 

Either JB has underperformed, or SP has overperformed, or a bit of both. It's the only explanation for their being so close.

 

What on earth did I just read? That's a ridiculous comparison. First you plummet the meaning of the 58-23 point difference saying it means nothing more than 2 points would mean against 1, and then you compare it to 1st drivers in top cars who obviously have many more points to fight for, who have exactly the same percentages compared to their teammates, and call it clear blue water. Jenson and Sergio fight for the points they can get, and this is the result of it. No amount of spinning changes that.



#3190 sopa

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:16

I understand the point made that Perez seems closer than points suggest, but tokyonagaremono blows it out of proportion.

 

By the way, this is how F1 works. You may "look close", but in the end if you never stand out (which Perez hasn't done) you trail a long way behind. Grosjean has looked close to Raikkonen at times or even beating him, but where is he on points?

 

In another thread there was an argument that Gutierrez looks close to Hulkenberg, but yet again - where are the points?

 

In 2009 there was an argument that Nakajima was not that bad and points lie his relative standing to Rosberg. Okay, but did he really ever impress?

 

In such close competition you need to stand out, this is what will earn you points and big points. If you are sort of okay at times and sometimes just inconsistent and nowhere, this means you are actually nowhere. Your performance ceiling has to be high. At least Grosjean is sort of getting there, putting in a big qualifying advantage over Raikkonen a few times.

 

 

Based on the 3 years' data available he'd probably have more points.  Or less points.  Or about the same.  ;)
 

 

Based on the only objective criteria, Hamilton would have 97,8% of Button's points based on 3-year-data, which means Hamilton would currently have precisely 56 points on board.:D

 

By the way, we all like to say that Hamilton is so much faster, but what about car issues, retirements, etc, which all balance it out? After all that's how it worked for 3 years...



#3191 Lights

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:22

Reading these type of criticisms on Jenson always remind me of his absolute strongest qualities: beating his teammates unnoticed; and staying underrated forever.



#3192 sopa

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:28

Reading these type of criticisms on Jenson always remind me of his absolute strongest qualities: beating his teammates unnoticed; and staying underrated forever.

 

Yeah, sort of. Although nobody talks about it and "it went unnoticed" as you say, I think Button stood out during the string of three races in mid-season (Germany, Hungary, Belgium) with 6th, 7th and 6th place finishes. This period was instrumental in earning him a significant points cushion he now enjoys over Perez.

 

If Perez got 6ths and 7ths consecutively with Button a long way behind, Perez would be spoken of as a top driver.



#3193 BillBald

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:30

You're no mathematician then. When one driver (Perez) has not many points at all, it isn't at all hard for the other (Butt) to have double or treble. If Perez had one point and Button two or three would the argument 'ah, but he's got double the points, he's hammering him!' hold much water? Well, 25 to 60 under today's scoring system and with so many races behind us isn't too different to 1-2. They are very close. One lucky weekend for Perez and there'd be almost nothing at all in it. 14 races in, Button should really be 70, 80 or more points ahead by now imo (that's a 5-point-per-race difference, not much to ask), what with him being the incumbent driver AND his many years' experience. Look at Vettel-272 Webber 130, Kimi-167 Romain-72 and FA-195 Massa-89; clear blue water. I'd expected Button to dominate like that, not for them to be pretty evenly matched like di Resta and Sutil or Ricciardo and Vergne.  

 

Either JB has underperformed, or SP has overperformed, or a bit of both. It's the only explanation for their being so close.

 

Well, you are right there, a lucky weekend for Checo is certainly possible.

 

How could there be a 5-point per race difference, when due to the poor car and frequent pitwall incompetence, Jenson doesn't often score that many points in a race?

 

I'm inclined to feel that Checo hasn't done at all badly, and I think he's a pretty quick driver. He can match Jenson, but mainly that involves trying fairly risky moves. Most of the time they don't pay off, but with so few points for either driver, he only needs to get really lucky once. So it's not impossible that he could overtake Jenson on points.



#3194 trogggy

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:33

What do you mean exactly? 

 

I would say the season as a whole is an example. JB has more than twice as many points but hasn't appeared more than twice as good imo.

For example somebody can finish 1 sec behind another in every race (very close) but if they are always finishing 1st and 2nd or 9th and 10th or 10th and 11th etc, the points gap will be pretty big (i.e. the points gap will be bigger than the performance gap).

What the heck does this mean?

Of course he's not twice as good - nobody is twice as good as Perez.  You don't get to drive in F1, let alone for a team like Mclaren, without being a bloody good driver.

If they were finishing together in every race (or most races)  with JB just ahead you could say it's close.  Generally there are cars in-between them.. That isn't particularly close.


Edited by trogggy, 10 October 2013 - 13:37.


#3195 bub

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:40

Reading these type of criticisms on Jenson always remind me of his absolute strongest qualities: beating his teammates unnoticed; and staying underrated forever.

 

I wouldn't say unnoticed, at least not recently. I think everyone knows he's beating Perez this season (just nobody cares because they're in the midfield and Perez is unproven) and everyone knows about 2011 and his overall points score over his previous teammate. I agree though that even though people know this, he still gets under-rated for some reason. He's beaten quite a few decent teammates and his point scoring abilities (which is what F1 is all about) is very impressive.



#3196 Lights

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:41

Yeah, sort of. Although nobody talks about it and "it went unnoticed" as you say, I think Button stood out during the string of three races in mid-season (Germany, Hungary, Belgium) with 6th, 7th and 6th place finishes. This period was instrumental in earning him a significant points cushion he now enjoys over Perez.

 

If Perez got 6ths and 7ths consecutively with Button a long way behind, Perez would be spoken of as a top driver.

 

If that was the case, Button would be wished into retirement by more people than you can imagine.

 

But it doesn't, it's the other way around. In at least 5 races (Sepang, China, + the 3 you mention) there was a clear performance gap between the two, but those races are of course selectively forgotten in light of more recent races where Sergio performed better.



#3197 Lights

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:45

I wouldn't say unnoticed, at least not recently. I think everyone knows he's beating Perez this season (just nobody cares because they're in the midfield and Perez is unproven) and everyone knows about 2011 and his overall points score over his previous teammate. I agree though that even though people know this, he still gets under-rated for some reason. He's beaten quite a few decent teammates and his point scoring abilities (which is what F1 is all about) is very impressive.

You would think, but from time to time I still read how apparently they're evenly matched, on this very page even.

 

And I'm not going to care that much less just because they're in the midfield. Jenson has been driving midfield cars for most of his career, so it's all not that new to me.



#3198 bub

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:47

What the heck does this mean?

 

It means...

 

I think the difference in points is a lot bigger than the difference in performance.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course he's not twice as good - nobody is twice as good as Perez.  You don't get to drive in F1, let alone for a team like Mclaren, without being a bloody good driver.

If they were finishing together in every race (or most races)  with JB just ahead you could say it's close.  Generally there are cars in-between them.. That isn't particularly close.

 

I disagree. I don't think you need to finish together in every race (or most races) for it to be close, but anyway I never said it was very close or particularly close. I said I think the perforance level has been closer than the points totals suggest or make it appear.



#3199 GlenP

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:48

Wow - some pretty screwy "logic" here!

 

This isn't like a Williams situation where one driver can change the whole points landscape in one race - there are enough points amassed for that to be a non-argument. Button is very clearly quite a good distance ahead - you really do have to look at it in a most peculiar way to draw any other conclusion. Which is not surprising considering the quality of JB and the pressure on the relatively inexperienced Checo.



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#3200 trogggy

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 13:51

I think the perforance level has been closer than the points totals suggest or make it appear.

Fair enough.  Put an argument together to explain why that's the case then.