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Button v Perez - 2013


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#3401 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 18:40

Riccardo is still a bit of a mystery, we shall see with him. I do not think Massa or Webber would be doing any better, Massa has not been very good in race trim in 2013 at all, and Webber has only really performed at his favorite tracks this year like Monaco, Silverstone and Japan. Button I think is a bit more consistent.

 

I think there is no mystery personally, I think Jenson is getting quite a bit out the car, more than 80% of the grid could.

 

Yes.



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#3402 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 18:41

Like I have already asked you, why don't you tell us where you think JB should have qualified in each race so far this year?  We can then discuss this hunch you have vs. the actual results and see if the conclusion that you've already come to is defensible or not. 

 

Also, if he thinks Jenson should be higher, then wouldn't that make Perez's performances look even worse in comparison?



#3403 bub

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:24

It is still too early to judge him against a driver who is a champion and one of the most experienced driver in the grid. Don't forget perez is still 23 years old and one of the youngest driver in the grid. Next year he will be better driver for sure.

 

I agree. Although Perez has a decent amount of F1 experience he is young and still has to gain some general maturity and is in his 1st year at the team. I also think JB is a better qualifier than he is given credit for.

 

Anyway, JB obviously better in qualifying. I would never expect Checo to beat him at Suzuka but his advantage with tyre choice may give him a chance.


Edited by bub, 12 October 2013 - 19:56.


#3404 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:28

I agree. Although Perez has a decent amount of F1 experience he is young and still has to gain some general maturity and is in his 1st ear at the team. I also think JB is a better qualifier than he is given credit for.

 

Anyway, JB obviously better in qualifying. I would never expect Checo to beat him at Suzuka but his advantage with tyre choice may give him a chance.

 

He'll have to execute his strategy to the letter though, and not ignore his team's advice like he seemingly did in Korea, attacking Raikkonen when the team had made it clear he was marginal on the front right tyre.

 

That's another string to Jenson's bow. He always has the ability to switch to plan B if needed and immediately start doing the times that are required of it. It's great to hear his dialogue on the radio because it's like he and his engineer are both stood in the garage working it out. Perez doesn't seem to have that, but then again not many drivers altogether seem to... perhaps Alonso, but again he can be very emotional in the cockpit.



#3405 Treads

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:34

Dear Tokyo, 

Have some questions to ask to fully understand your posts. Being very clear to only ask you to explain your opinions, which I disagree with, rather than attack them, because at the moment I consider them unsupported and consider than you are responding to quite justified questions and criticism only through a) generalisations with no specific evidence to back you up and b) endless suggestions that other fans are too defensive and unwilling to accept any criticism of JB.  

 

I fail to see why you think it's not possible to be a fan but also to criticize (and on occasion, as in the race/period back in April you quoted from, be absolutely horrified at the performance of the person/team you support). I just don't get that. If you think we all have to be ultrafans, the equivalent of footy supporters unable to criticize our own side, then you're more than a 'fan'. At that stage of the season Checo looked pretty good vs JB, and a good early bet for a consolidated seat at Macca and JB was definitely underperforming. Now, after 14 races, it's not so clear - I've revised my views on Checo. That's allowed, you know, it's what normal fans do all the time.

 

Today's qually illustrates the point I've been making. P10 and P11. An extra 0.3 would have put him ahead of Kimi and FA. But he/they didn't go for it. Why? Why not start P8 and P10? This is exactly my point. Why push for P8 or P7 when P10 will do, eh?   

 

1) On what basis have you revised your views on Checo? At the start of the season you thought he was great, now you seemingly think he is medioka. The only benchmark you have against which to compare him is Button. And now you are disappointed in Button because he isn't beating Checo as much as you think he should given that Checo isn't very good? If you hadn't changed your mind about Checo, and still thought he was a better bet for WDC than Button, right about now you'd be thinking that Button was having a great season. 

So question number 1 is what caused you to revise down your opinion of Checo? 

2) Ane extra 0.3 would have put Kimi ahead of Alonso. An extra 0.3 would have put Alonso ahead of Hulk, Massa, Rosberg and Grosjean. In the posts below, you described Alonso as a true hustler and so on... under what realistic basis do you think that Jenson should be out-qualifying Alonso and Kimi, who are both top notch drivers, in a car which every piece of evidence suggests is weaker than their cars? Because that is what I am having trouble with... you just suggested Jenson should outqualify two great drivers in faster cars; clearly the same principle must be applied to them. What then about Hamilton - an extra 0.3 would have put him ahead of Vettel and Webber. Shouldn't he be out-hustling them? And then extend it to Webber - why couldn't he get an extra 0.3 and outqualify everyone and himself by even more? The point here is that every driver is striving for that last tenth; you are suggesting that JB is underperforming by 3 tenths; why is it only JB that you single out, and why do you think that the McLaren has an extra 3 tenths in it that you can't reasonably expect every other driver on the grid to also be able to access from their cars (on average as you like to say?).

 

This gets better and better; it's like a giant game of Chinese Whispers around here. Top 4? Podium? Where are these ideas coming from? No wonder these A vs B threads degenerate until only hardcore 'fans' on each side remain. You'd think I'm sitting here with a big black moustache and a sombrero (Troggy almost certainly does think so) just for thinking JB can do a bit better.

 

Let me put it in very simple terms: Today, JB had a chance to start P8 (maybe P7), significantly ahead of SP in P11, but he/the team decided not to go for it. That one act today typifies for me his whole season.

 

Expect more of yourself JB, exceed the low expectations of your hardcore 'fans'.

 

3) Why do you think only JB can be a bit better? 

4) If answer to 3) is because he's not beating Checo by that much, and that Checo isn't very good, please refer to questions 1) - when it seems to me that without any reliable basis for comparison you have revised down your opinions of both drivers during the season? 

5) Yes, JB had a chance to start P8 or maybe P7 (or maybe not, maybe the 0.3 wasn't in the car). But all the other drivers there had a chance to qualify 0.3 seconds better (or maybe they didn't, maybe the 0.3 wasn't in the car). So how can you conclude this? Why do you think he didn't go for it? 

 

You can say that again.

 

I suppose my criticisms of JB (and the team) come down to: A) if a real hustler like FA were in this year's Macca, how far ahead of SP would he be finishing?, combined with b) if a qually specialist like SV or LH were driving it, how far ahead of SP would they be starting on the grid? Put those together and you have the max possibilities with the car. Finally, the question I'm asking, is: how much closer to that combined 'ideal' could we reasonably expect JB to get if he were to really pull his finger out?

 

I think he has or should have the ability and experience to move it forward. But most of his fans here are proving to be depressingly negative when it comes to JB's potential, they seem to think he is already getting the max out of the package. P10 vs SP's P11 today... And they think they're the fans. You couldn't make it up - they're satisfied he's F1's Norwich City and are prepared to defend iffy results/performances, I want him to make it to the Champions' League at least; be an Arsenal or Spurs, even if he can't be a Man U or City...

 

6) As per previous question, as every source of evidence suggests that this year's Ferrari is faster than the McLaren, and given that Alonso is such a real hustler, how can you reconcile this with your comment that JB should have found an extra 3 tenths and outqualified Alonso? Felipe Massa was 4.5 tenths ahead of Button, 1.5 ahead of Alonso. If Button should have hustled another 3 tenths to beat Alonso, shouldn't Alonso have hustled another 1.5 tenths to match his team mate and hence mean that JB wouldn't have beaten him? Same principle applies for Rosberg and Kimi. It seems to me remarkably unfair that you are applying the 3 tenths only to Jenson, and not to the others. 

 

I'll answer your question: both FI boys have failed to impress so far, so I doubt they'd be doing better, probably worse; both Massa and Webber with their tails up could, imo, be doing better than JB in this car, maybe not much better (obviously, they've both been suffering psychological/confidence problems lately, stemming from their several-year-stints as clear no 2s). Ricciardo could be doing better too (I rate him a lot better than SP now) and Ros and Gros would probably be doing better as well, all else being equal. But I rate JB better than all of them, which is why it's so mysterious he can't/won't squeeze more from the package.  

 

I guess that some fans are so fanatical they can't believe or accept that he might not be giving it 110% all the time.

 

7) You now say that several drivers could/would be doing better than JB, what evidence do you have to back that up other than guesses or feelings? 

8) You say that Jenson is better than all these drivers, and that's why it's odd that he isn't beating your theoretical estimate of how they could be doing? What basis do you have to support that the car could be doing better? 

 

9) Final question: I think your argument is circular. Checo isn't very good, so the fact that JB isn't utterly dominating him and finishes 5 points per races better off indicates JB is off form. But JB is the only metric we have against which to compare Button; the performance of these two drivers is the only thing we can compare the other against, lacking all data as we are about the car itself as compared to the others on the grid. Hence what you are really doing is articulating your feelings and guesses and opinions, none of which are supported by facts, and which are also inconsistent with your previous feelings, which also were not supported by facts. Is there something wrong in my analysis or can you present some objective proof, even just something persuasive rather than cast-iron, as to what you are saying? 


Edited by Treads, 12 October 2013 - 19:36.


#3406 tokyonagaremono

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:37

 

I think there is no mystery personally, I think Jenson is getting quite a bit out the car, more than 80% of the grid could.

 

OK, so let's assume that remaining, faster, 20% means 5 drivers. The four other WDCs and one other? Who? Ros? Hulk? Webber? Massa? Gros? (Ricc and DIR as outsiders?)  I'm not so sure, I think at least a couple, maybe more, of them could take the car forward a place or two. Like I said, I was thinking of WEB and MAS with their tails up - confident - not like they have been this year (today appears an exception though), and really, that's what I'm saying about JB too. He has the ability, when his tail is up more to out qualify all these drivers in identical cars. I believe it. But I don't think JB as he's driving this season would.

 

There really is no end to this debate; some are saying they think he's giving it the full 110% every race and it's unfair to criticize, I'm saying I don't think so, that (because this year's car is so dodgy and/or because he's gone from having a team mate who'll push him to one who, it seems now, can't) his head's dropped and (like WEB and MAS) he's not operating at his max and getting everything out of the package (and himself). Like I said, nobody here has access to the inside of his head, so we have to believe what we believe.  



#3407 Treads

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:45

OK, so let's assume that remaining, faster, 20% means 5 drivers. The four other WDCs and one other? Who? Ros? Hulk? Webber? Massa? Gros? (Ricc and DIR as outsiders?)  I'm not so sure, I think at least a couple, maybe more, of them could take the car forward a place or two. Like I said, I was thinking of WEB and MAS with their tails up - confident - not like they have been this year (today appears an exception though), and really, that's what I'm saying about JB too. He has the ability, when his tail is up more to out qualify all these drivers in identical cars. I believe it. But I don't think JB as he's driving this season would.

 

There really is no end to this debate; some are saying they think he's giving it the full 110% every race and it's unfair to criticize, I'm saying I don't think so, that (because this year's car is so dodgy and/or because he's gone from having a team mate who'll push him to one who, it seems now, can't) his head's dropped and (like WEB and MAS) he's not operating at his max and getting everything out of the package (and himself). Like I said, nobody here has access to the inside of his head, so we have to believe what we believe.  

 

Excellent, logical post. It is absolutely a fair thing to do to compare JB in current form against Massa and Webber's theoretical best form; we should all, as fans of JB, be holding him to a higher standard. I also feel very strongly that the minimum we can expect from JB drivers is 120% each race. F1 is a rarified world, 110% just doesn't cut it. 


Edited by Treads, 12 October 2013 - 19:45.


#3408 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:52

Excellent, logical post. It is absolutely a fair thing to do to compare JB in current form against Massa and Webber's theoretical best form; we should all, as fans of JB, be holding him to a higher standard. I also feel very strongly that the minimum we can expect from JB drivers is 120% each race. F1 is a rarified world, 110% just doesn't cut it. 

Well 5% isn't that much either, shouldn't we expect 125%? I mean, Monaco 2009 is worth adding that extra expectation on...



#3409 sennafan24

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:52

OK, so let's assume that remaining, faster, 20% means 5 drivers. The four other WDCs and one other? Who? Ros? Hulk? Webber? Massa? Gros? (Ricc and DIR as outsiders?)  I'm not so sure, I think at least a couple, maybe more, of them could take the car forward a place or two. Like I said, I was thinking of WEB and MAS with their tails up - confident - not like they have been this year (today appears an exception though), and really, that's what I'm saying about JB too. He has the ability, when his tail is up more to out qualify all these drivers in identical cars. I believe it. But I don't think JB as he's driving this season would.

 

For myself, the league tables look a bit like this in 2013.

 

Tier 1: Lewis, Seb and Alonso

Tier 2. Kimi, Rosberg and Button

 

Now, some would put Lewis in tier 2, and Kimi in tier 1, I understand that. But my point is that, I only see these 5 drivers on a level that is equal or better than Jenson, I can only outright say on the form Jenson has been displaying in 2013 that 3 drivers on a 22 driver grid would probably be doing a bit better job than Jenson.

 

I think Jenson is trying and to a extent achieving, you cannot say the ambitious strategies he used at SPA and other places lacked effort, he was really trying to get more out of a sub-par car. When your car does not have pace you have to find other ways to win, you can not expect to bomb round the circuit and be competitive, Jenson finds alternatives and to some degree does very well, if you compare his relative performance to Perez this year.

 

Jenson is not a known one lap specialist due to Lewis making him look bad in their qualifying duels, yet he is still beating Perez in qualifying this year to a extent that proves to myself that Jenson is a tad underrated in qualifying. In that respect I have gained a lot more admiration for Jenson as a driver this year, it might be his best in terms of relative performance since 2011.

 

I am no Jenson fanboy, many a lazy afternoon last year I ranted how 2012 he was not very good, and the points gap between him and Lewis was not reflective of how much Lewis was tooling him head to head, but you have to appreciate talent when you see it.

 

Jenson's 2013 is a artistic success, if not a material success.



#3410 Treads

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:58

Well 5% isn't that much either, shouldn't we expect 125%? I mean, Monaco 2009 is worth adding that extra expectation on...

 

Yes but really, adding a whole 5% on because of one good race? I will revise up to 122.5% and no further. 



#3411 sopa

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 19:58



Glad to see somebody is at least properly reading/understanding my posts, even if we don't agree on much.

 

I'll answer your question: both FI boys have failed to impress so far, so I doubt they'd be doing better, probably worse; both Massa and Webber with their tails up could, imo, be doing better than JB in this car, maybe not much better (obviously, they've both been suffering psychological/confidence problems lately, stemming from their several-year-stints as clear no 2s). Ricciardo could be doing better too (I rate him a lot better than SP now) and Ros and Gros would probably be doing better as well, all else being equal. But I rate JB better than all of them, which is why it's so mysterious he can't/won't squeeze more from the package.  

 

I guess that some fans are so fanatical they can't believe or accept that he might not be giving it 110% all the time.

 

I would agree with you that perhaps Vettel/Alonso/Hamilton could have got a little bit more out of that car over a full season on average. I could also agree that maybe in qualifying trim there are a few tenths in reserve in McLaren and with Vettel/Hamilton McLaren could be starting a couple of positions further up the grid.

 

However, I don't see, how Grosjean, Webber, Massa would have done better, most probably worse. Maybe Rosberg could have done about something similar. Which means Button is squeezing just about adequately relative to his talent out of that car. If you want an example of Button genuinely underperforming, you can look at years 2001 and 2008. About these you could say he could/should have done better. Then again the cars were so bad most of the time, it wouldn't have again made much of a difference anyway.



#3412 sopa

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:09

 

 

Jenson is not a known one lap specialist due to Lewis making him look bad in their qualifying duels, yet he is still beating Perez in qualifying this year to a extent that proves to myself that Jenson is a tad underrated in qualifying. In that respect I have gained a lot more admiration for Jenson as a driver this year, it might be his best in terms of relative performance since 2011.

 

 

I agree. Hamilton beating Rosberg to almost a similar margin over a full season (atm 10-5) is giving an indication. Even if Rosberg is considered as better than Button in qualifying, it is by an absolute tiniest of margins by that comparison. And Rosberg is considered to be a good qualifier. Which still makes Button a solid top 10 qualifier on the grid. There are some unknowns, like Ricciardo, about how would they stack up against Button over a series of qualifyings, but that's how it roughly looks like now.

 

If I remembercorrectly, Button basically about matched Barrichello in qualifying over a 4-year-period of being team-mates together. Did anyone consider Barrichello slow on Saturdays? Not really. Just inferior to M.Schumacher, but still pretty fast.



#3413 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:12

Yes but really, adding a whole 5% on because of one good race? I will revise up to 122.5% and no further. 

 

Okay, that was just a negotiating tactic... I got all I could out of that then! Just like Jenson really... :p



#3414 Treads

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:21

I agree. Hamilton beating Rosberg to almost a similar margin over a full season (atm 10-5) is giving an indication. Even if Rosberg is considered as better than Button in qualifying, it is by an absolute tiniest of margins by that comparison. And Rosberg is considered to be a good qualifier. Which still makes Button a solid top 10 qualifier on the grid. There are some unknowns, like Ricciardo, about how would they stack up against Button over a series of qualifyings, but that's how it roughly looks like now.

 

If I remembercorrectly, Button basically about matched Barrichello in qualifying over a 4-year-period of being team-mates together. Did anyone consider Barrichello slow on Saturdays? Not really. Just inferior to M.Schumacher, but still pretty fast.

 

Let us also consider that this is Hamilton's first season at Merc. From my rather bad memory for a few races early doors this season Rosberg was giving Lewis a bit of a hiding (relatively speaking). I would suggest that, if Hamilton had Rosberg's tenure at Merc, the dominance would be greater still. 

(This is not a slight of Rosberg; I just happen to think Hamilton is one of the greats in qualifying).



#3415 tokyonagaremono

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:21

For myself, the league tables look a bit like this in 2013.

 

Tier 1: Lewis, Seb and Alonso

Tier 2. Kimi, Rosberg and Button

 

Now, some would put Lewis in tier 2, and Kimi in tier 1, I understand that. But my point is that, I only see these 5 drivers on a level that is equal or better than Jenson, I can only outright say on the form Jenson has been displaying in 2013 that 3 drivers on a 22 driver grid would probably be doing a bit better job than Jenson.

 

I think Jenson is trying and to a extent achieving, you cannot say the ambitious strategies he used at SPA and other places lacked effort, he was really trying to get more out of a sub-par car. When your car does not have pace you have to find other ways to win, you can not expect to bomb round the circuit and be competitive, Jenson finds alternatives and to some degree does very well, if you compare his relative performance to Perez this year.

 

Jenson is not a known one lap specialist due to Lewis making him look bad in their qualifying duels, yet he is still beating Perez in qualifying this year to a extent that proves to myself that Jenson is a tad underrated in qualifying. In that respect I have gained a lot more admiration for Jenson as a driver this year, it might be his best in terms of relative performance since 2011.

 

I am no Jenson fanboy, many a lazy afternoon last year I ranted how 2012 he was not very good, and the points gap between him and Lewis was not reflective of how much Lewis was tooling him head to head, but you have to appreciate talent when you see it.

 

Jenson's 2013 is a artistic success, if not a material success.

 

I actually agree with a lot of that, except I'm not quite as sure JB's having a gem of a season that's being thwarted by such a crap car. It's a matter of extent, and subjectivity, of course. The reason so many exchanges in these kinds of threads go so weird is there are people whose think debating even subjective topics demands they just keep going 'what's the evidence? Proooove it!' until the cows come home (see above) in the hope the other 'side' gives up, when really it's like when City beats Utd 4-1 what do the Utd fans think? They all have different, subjective, opinions - some think their own side pretty fantastic but claim the opponents must've been even better, some suspect the fault lies within their own team, and others blame the boot manufacturer or the floodlights or the ref. They all have the right to their opinions.

 

But here, despite JB/Macca having a less-than-brilliant year, it's as if some fans are demanding that only their 'excuse' is allowed - i.e. JB is perfect, but everything else has conspired against him. I agree that's partly right, of course, lots around him is shit this yearbut still believe he isn't driving at the level we saw at times, often quite extended times, in previous years. I simply believe there's more to squeeze out of the car to push him further ahead of SP (anybody who disagrees would have to believe FA, LH, SV would be getting exactly the same results as JB were they in his seat) and that he's not straining every sinew to do it. (No, I don't think JB could match those guys in this car, but the I certainly suspect he's capable of getting closer to where they would be than he is now.)

 

I find this 'faultless idol' fanship slightly off-putting, and I suspect JB himself would too. It's a pity. It must make watching F1 a real bummer for those who succumb to it. Do they cry when he has a bad day?...



#3416 Force Ten

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:25

I agree. Hamilton beating Rosberg to almost a similar margin over a full season (atm 10-5) is giving an indication. Even if Rosberg is considered as better than Button in qualifying, it is by an absolute tiniest of margins by that comparison. And Rosberg is considered to be a good qualifier. Which still makes Button a solid top 10 qualifier on the grid. There are some unknowns, like Ricciardo, about how would they stack up against Button over a series of qualifyings, but that's how it roughly looks like now.

 

If I remembercorrectly, Button basically about matched Barrichello in qualifying over a 4-year-period of being team-mates together. Did anyone consider Barrichello slow on Saturdays? Not really. Just inferior to M.Schumacher, but still pretty fast.

With a trip down the memory lane, while Jenson perhaps seemed overall roughly the same as Barrichello in quali during their stint together he tended to be better whenever there were more points to be gained by being better. And even when he was performing to a lesser degree  in quali he tended to do to Barrichello in races similar things he was doing to Sergio between Germany and Spa. So it's not down to pure luck that one ended up in McLaren winning the second race there and another trundled in the back of the grid for two years and then found himself in CART.

 

Regarding Rosberg, again, while he perhaps seems to be a bit better overall in quali versus Lewis, he also seems to fall a bit further back in races. But then again, the data sample isn't that large yet.



#3417 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:29

Have you actually considered that for some bad luck (or rather lack of it from his competitors, the attrition rate being remarkably low this season even for modern times) Jenson may actually be having a gem of a season?

 

Did he have any right with the car being as it is and was being in with a shout of a podium in Malaysia? No.

 

Likewise in China, do you think he could've done ANY better without something happening to his rivals ahead? No.

 

Monaco, do you think he would've done better if his fuel pump hadn't conked out on him in Q3? Yes, his pace in Qu and the race suggested that 4th was possible.

 

The same thing for Germany, Hungary and Belgium... all occasions he completely maximised the car's potential. Even last week in Korea, his wing gets chopped by no fault of his own, so he has to change to a massively inferior strategy that would ruin most drivers' races. Not Jenson, as he made a 2-stopper work (with help from the SC's yes, but still through his own work) with his 2nd stop being on lap 22. Mad, but Jenson made it work in the way only he can.



#3418 Treads

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:29

 actually agree with a lot of that, except I'm not quite as sure JB's having a gem of a season that's being thwarted by such a crap car. It's a matter of extent, and subjectivity, of course. The reason so many exchanges in these kinds of threads go so weird is there are people whose think debating even subjective topics demands they just keep going 'what's the evidence? Proooove it!' until the cows come home (see above) in the hope the other 'side' gives up, when really it's like when City beats Utd 4-1 what do the Utd fans think? They all have different, subjective, opinions - some think their own side pretty fantastic but claim the opponents must've been even better, some suspect the fault lies within their own team, and others blame the boot manufacturer or the floodlights or the ref. They all have the right to their opinions.

 

But here, despite JB/Macca having a less-than-brilliant year, it's as if some fans are demanding that only their 'excuse' is allowed - i.e. JB is perfect, but everything else has conspired against him. I agree that's partly right, of course, lots around him is shit this yearbut still believe he isn't driving at the level we saw at times, often quite extended times, in previous years. I simply believe there's more to squeeze out of the car to push him further ahead of SP (anybody who disagrees would have to believe FA, LH, SV would be getting exactly the same results as JB were they in his seat) and that he's not straining every sinew to do it. (No, I don't think JB could match those guys in this car, but the I certainly suspect he's capable of getting closer to where they would be than he is now.)

 

I find this 'faultless idol' fanship slightly off-putting, and I suspect JB himself would too. It's a pity. It must make watching F1 a real bummer for those who succumb to it. Do they cry when he has a bad day?...

 

The reason people are getting a bit frustrated, Tokyo, and at this point I believe but am not 100% sure you are trolling, is that you are giving your opinions, your opinion only, no evidence. And you are giving your opinion over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. At this point, I think your opinion on this is clear: you think JB could be doing better this season, that he isn't on great form, but have no evidence to back it up. Thanks for coming; enough said. 

 

Actual discussion and interesting back-and-forth involves the exchange of reasonable arguments backed up by fact, not just giving your opinion. 

 

Any idiot can have an opinion and few can substantiate, and you aren't substantiating yours. For instance, you have replied to post 3414 but not my earlier post, 3408. I suspect that you haven't replied because it asks a lot of questions which seriously pull to pieces your opinions, arguments and representations. And you continue to not directly respond to counter arguments to your posts. All you do s moan that the fanatics are idol worshipping JB and claiming he is faultless! When quite the reverse, merely being realistic and trying to have a proper conversation not endlessly have to work round your not-backed-up opinions. 

 


Edited by Treads, 12 October 2013 - 20:30.


#3419 sennafan24

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:35

 

 

But here, despite JB/Macca having a less-than-brilliant year, it's as if some fans are demanding that only their 'excuse' is allowed - i.e. JB is perfect, but everything else has conspired against him. I agree that's partly right, of course, lots around him is shit this yearbut still believe he isn't driving at the level we saw at times, often quite extended times, in previous years. I simply believe there's more to squeeze out of the car to push him further ahead of SP (anybody who disagrees would have to believe FA, LH, SV would be getting exactly the same results as JB were they in his seat) and that he's not straining every sinew to do it. (No, I don't think JB could match those guys in this car, but the I certainly suspect he's capable of getting closer to where they would be than he is now.)

 

I agree that the whole proof and evidence debate in F1 is obsolete, I think perception and subjectivity are what most opinions are based on, and only a fool would try and present the 100% truth on the matter.

 

But I do think there are significant grounds that Jenson is performing well in a relative sense. Allow me to explain, its simple cause and effect.

 

Jenson is beating Perez in the all areas of the stats to such a significant degree, it is hard to argue that he is not the better driver. Is Perez in retrospect overrated from 2012? Maybe, but Button is separating himself from the mid-field pack like the FI pair, Pastor/Bottas and others by putting his teammate to bed. Other mid field runners are scrapping with their teammates tooth and nail, Button is not.

 

Using Perez as a barometer, Button is performing very well. From a pure observation sense, I see no reason to critic Jenson and as I said I have been critical of him in the past, namely his 2012 efforts.


Edited by sennafan24, 12 October 2013 - 20:35.


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#3420 Force Ten

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:37

The same thing for Germany, Hungary and Belgium... all occasions he completely maximised the car's potential. Even last week in Korea, his wing gets chopped by no fault of his own, so he has to change to a massively inferior strategy that would ruin most drivers' races. Not Jenson, as he made a 2-stopper work (with help from the SC's yes, but still through his own work) with his 2nd stop being on lap 22. Mad, but Jenson made it work in the way only he can.

I cannot exactly be accused of being indifferent towards Jenson Button and while I appreciate the poetry but I would argue that there are maybe some others that could have made that particular one work. One I would bet my money to also make it work was driving a blackish car and arguably suffering from back pain.



#3421 trogggy

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:44

You'd think I'm sitting here with a big black moustache and a sombrero (Troggy almost certainly does think so)

I hadn't really thought about it tbh, but if pushed I'm seeing more an adolescent straggly nearly-moustache.  Like the one I tried to cultivate at the end of the '70s.  And a straw hat you found on the top of your mum's wardrobe, possibly a souvenir from a wonderful fortnight in Tenerife.    ;)



#3422 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:48

I agree that the whole proof and evidence debate in F1 is obsolete, I think perception and subjectivity are what most opinions are based on, and only a fool would try and present the 100% truth on the matter.

 

But I do think there are significant grounds that Jenson is performing well in a relative sense. Allow me to explain, its simple cause and effect.

 

Jenson is beating Perez in the all areas of the stats to such a significant degree, it is hard to argue that he is not the better driver. Is Perez in retrospect overrated from 2012? Maybe, but Button is separating himself from the mid-field pack like the FI pair, Pastor/Bottas and others by putting his teammate to bed. Other mid field runners are scrapping with their teammates tooth and nail, Button is not.

 

Using Perez as a barometer, Button is performing very well. From a pure observation sense, I see no reason to critic Jenson and as I said I have been critical of him in the past, namely his 2012 efforts.

 

And that's a world champion like Jenson separates himself from those, and no offence to fans of any of those drivers or the drivers themselves, fundamentally below him in talent AND application.

 

I don't think directly comparing Perez of 2012 to 2013 is because of the change in team and teammate (I love Kamui but he's not of the same level as Button, not by a long shot). Sauber had some fantastic strategies for Perez which in retrospect may have flattered his raceday ability. It was hard not to execute the strategy when they were perfect like Monza's was. This year, he doesn't have that spark, perhaps leaving Sauber is why. Maybe he's just not right for McLaren, and would've actually been better off at Ferrari or with Sauber another year?

 

There are just some combinations that don't work. Button and Benetton was one. The circumstances and timing just made that combination not what it could've been given his previous year in the Williams. It seems like that for Perez, but maybe another year could help change it back. I don't think he should be dumped, but he needs to show something that's worth keeping him around for, and Bahrain wasn't it.



#3423 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:49

I cannot exactly be accused of being indifferent towards Jenson Button and while I appreciate the poetry but I would argue that there are maybe some others that could have made that particular one work. One I would bet my money to also make it work was driving a blackish car and arguably suffering from back pain.

 

Shhhh... poetic licence and all that! :p

 

(I agree that the driver you are mentioning in the blackish car could do the same...)


Edited by DanardiF1, 12 October 2013 - 20:49.


#3424 sennafan24

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 20:58

And that's a world champion like Jenson separates himself from those, and no offence to fans of any of those drivers or the drivers themselves, fundamentally below him in talent AND application.

 

I don't think directly comparing Perez of 2012 to 2013 is because of the change in team and teammate (I love Kamui but he's not of the same level as Button, not by a long shot). Sauber had some fantastic strategies for Perez which in retrospect may have flattered his raceday ability. It was hard not to execute the strategy when they were perfect like Monza's was. This year, he doesn't have that spark, perhaps leaving Sauber is why. Maybe he's just not right for McLaren, and would've actually been better off at Ferrari or with Sauber another year?

 

There are just some combinations that don't work. Button and Benetton was one. The circumstances and timing just made that combination not what it could've been given his previous year in the Williams. It seems like that for Perez, but maybe another year could help change it back. I don't think he should be dumped, but he needs to show something that's worth keeping him around for, and Bahrain wasn't it.

I was thinking that maybe the Sauber was a bit easier on tyre conservation than we thought, and that flattered Perez. I agree that some combos do not work, and drivers change over time (hence why people saying Webber is better than Rosberg based on head to head many moons ago, I think is a bit silly) Also, last year there seemed to be less between the teams, there was more scope for the mid-field teams to do well due to how unpredictable the tyres were.

 

My main point is that Jenson is proving that he still is a league above the mid-field pack, and still in top 5 driver range, when you prove that when you are over 30, I do not think you can see its a bad year for him. But I am sure Tokyo will disagree.


Edited by sennafan24, 12 October 2013 - 20:59.


#3425 tokyonagaremono

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 21:23

A bit of time on my hands, so I'll indulge you Treads. Enjoy the feast:

 

 

 

1) On what basis have you revised your views on Checo? At the start of the season you thought he was great, now you seemingly think he is medioka. The only benchmark you have against which to compare him is Button. And now you are disappointed in Button because he isn't beating Checo as much as you think he should given that Checo isn't very good? If you hadn't changed your mind about Checo, and still thought he was a better bet for WDC than Button, right about now you'd be thinking that Button was having a great season. 

So question number 1 is what caused you to revise down your opinion of Checo? 

 

He hasn't improved. New team, start of year looked bouncy and up for it. Now looks pretty mediocre - not terrible, but not what I'd thought, he isn't getting noticeably better. Obviously I'm benchmarking him against JB and other midfield drivers around them. Perhaps also I stupidly fell for some of MW's hype. Next! 

 

 

2) Ane extra 0.3 would have put Kimi ahead of Alonso. An extra 0.3 would have put Alonso ahead of Hulk, Massa, Rosberg and Grosjean. In the posts below, you described Alonso as a true hustler and so on... under what realistic basis do you think that Jenson should be out-qualifying Alonso and Kimi, who are both top notch drivers, in a car which every piece of evidence suggests is weaker than their cars? Because that is what I am having trouble with... you just suggested Jenson should outqualify two great drivers in faster cars; clearly the same principle must be applied to them. What then about Hamilton - an extra 0.3 would have put him ahead of Vettel and Webber. Shouldn't he be out-hustling them? And then extend it to Webber - why couldn't he get an extra 0.3 and outqualify everyone and himself by even more? The point here is that every driver is striving for that last tenth; you are suggesting that JB is underperforming by 3 tenths; why is it only JB that you single out, and why do you think that the McLaren has an extra 3 tenths in it that you can't reasonably expect every other driver on the grid to also be able to access from their cars (on average as you like to say?).

 

This is the type of silly nonsensical question I was just writing about in another post. Some (most!) drivers are, I believe, hustling and getting the max out of their cars - even JB sometimes! When I say I think JB could squeeze more, why should I believe everyone could? That's an idiotic argument. I think JB can squeeze more. And when you say "what realistic basis do you think that Jenson should be out-qualifying Alonso and Kimi, who are both top notch drivers, in a car which every piece of evidence suggests is weaker than their cars? Because that is what I am having trouble with...", well, perhaps (and careful now, don't spit your coffee all over your PC), just perhaps, I don't think the Macca was that bad compared to the Ferrari/Lotus (today). Or maybe FA or KR had shit quallys? - I don't care why they were there today or if they could have gone faster, they were just ahead of JB today and he didn't seem up for a bit of hustling. Next!

 

3) Why do you think only JB can be a bit better? 

 

I don't. Why do you think that? There are others, Webber and Massa spring to mind (even, dare I say it, FA and KR during qually) though both WEB and MAS did well today. Loads more down the grid DIR, SUT for starters. Or are you only talking about only the top WDC drivers? In that case, I think SV,LH,FA,KR give it 110% in races, but JB doesn't. Sometimes, but not always. Next!

 

4) If answer to 3) is because he's not beating Checo by that much, and that Checo isn't very good, please refer to questions 1) - when it seems to me that without any reliable basis for comparison you have revised down your opinions of both drivers during the season? 

 

N/A Next!

 

5) Yes, JB had a chance to start P8 or maybe P7 (or maybe not, maybe the 0.3 wasn't in the car). But all the other drivers there had a chance to qualify 0.3 seconds better (or maybe they didn't, maybe the 0.3 wasn't in the car). So how can you conclude this? Why do you think he didn't go for it? 

 

This is almost the same question as 2). Isn't it? We'd have to ask him why he didn't go for it. Maybe he did and he made a silly mistake. Next!

 

6) As per previous question, as every source of evidence suggests that this year's Ferrari is faster than the McLaren, and given that Alonso is such a real hustler, how can you reconcile this with your comment that JB should have found an extra 3 tenths and outqualified Alonso? Felipe Massa was 4.5 tenths ahead of Button, 1.5 ahead of Alonso. If Button should have hustled another 3 tenths to beat Alonso, shouldn't Alonso have hustled another 1.5 tenths to match his team mate and hence mean that JB wouldn't have beaten him? Same principle applies for Rosberg and Kimi. It seems to me remarkably unfair that you are applying the 3 tenths only to Jenson, and not to the others. 

 

Isn't this the same as 2) and 5)?  Regardless of what the other drivers could have theoretically done, JB was where he was today - it's JB under discussion here.  Next!

 

7) You now say that several drivers could/would be doing better than JB, what evidence do you have to back that up other than guesses or feelings? 

 

What evidence, m'lord? Evidence in a case like this? Is JB better than KR? was Pele better than Maradona? Is butter better than marg? I could ask, if you disagree, what evidence there is to the contrary, apart from your guesses and feelings? I watch the full SKY coverage, I listen to Brundle and the driver interviews and so on. I draw my conclusions. Next!

 

8) You say that Jenson is better than all these drivers, and that's why it's odd that he isn't beating your theoretical estimate of how they could be doing? What basis do you have to support that the car could be doing better? 

 

Like I told you, I know he's better (or, he could be better); he's driven better in previous seasons. Re the second part of your question, imagine FA or SV or LH in the same car, if you think they'd be unable to get more out of it than JB you are more than a normal 'fan' and I can't help you any further; if you agree that they could probably squeeze more out of it, then we just disagree about how capable JB is (and what that actually means is I think he's better than you do, cos I think he should/could be nearer to where they'd be; you don't, you think he's at his absolute max now...) Next!

 

9) Final question: I think your argument is circular. Checo isn't very good, so the fact that JB isn't utterly dominating him and finishes 5 points per races better off indicates JB is off form. But JB is the only metric we have against which to compare Button(???); the performance of these two drivers is the only thing we can compare the other against, lacking all data as we are about the car itself as compared to the others on the grid. Hence what you are really doing is articulating your feelings and guesses and opinions, none of which are supported by facts, and which are also inconsistent with your previous feelings, which also were not supported by facts. Is there something wrong in my analysis or can you present some objective proof, even just something persuasive rather than cast-iron, as to what you are saying? 

 

Every argument and opinion on F1 could be shown to be circular to some extent when outsiders are making them - unless they're being articulated by the actual people involved, it's all subjective, it's really not hard to get your head around. Are you JB? Can you tell me truthfully whether you're giving it your all? You appear to be conflating a sport with a scientific discipline (probably because there's so much 'tech' stuff and 'data' in F1, people see it as some kind of science; it isn't, it's just a sport like footy, there's lots of data in that too nowadays - still doesn't stop fans having their own opinions on why Liverpool lost to Swansea.) Look, put in simple terms, I've reached the conclusion I think JB could squeeze more out of the car most races, which in turn would perhaps put him a few places further up the grid/final result, which in turn would put him maybe another (by now) 15 or 20 pts ahead of SP. It's that simple. It's right because I believe it. It cannot be disproved, just as your opinions can't - there is no data, no facts, short of JB or Whitmarsh coming here himself and telling me (while attached to lie-detector) what's what to prove that either of us is 'right'. You may believe otherwise to your heart's content, but you'd be wrong. Yes, I believe SP could improve too, yes, SP could perhaps squeeze more, but that's not the issue - I'm saying, all else equal, I think JB can do more. Not miracles. Just more.

 

You are right to infer I'm not convinced either JB or SP is the man to stay at Macca and take them forward. They've both disappointed; SP because he looked perky early on but has faded, JB because he's not (IMO!!) giving everything like he did in previous years. Like I said, to me being a fan means calling it as I see it.  


Edited by tokyonagaremono, 12 October 2013 - 21:40.


#3426 tokyonagaremono

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 21:35

 

 

The reason people are getting a bit frustrated, Tokyo, and at this point I believe but am not 100% sure you are trolling, is that you are giving your opinions, your opinion only, no evidence. And you are giving your opinion over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. At this point, I think your opinion on this is clear: you think JB could be doing better this season, that he isn't on great form, but have no evidence to back it up. Thanks for coming; enough said. 

 

Actual discussion and interesting back-and-forth involves the exchange of reasonable arguments backed up by fact, not just giving your opinion. 

 

Any idiot can have an opinion and few can substantiate, and you aren't substantiating yours. For instance, you have replied to post 3414 but not my earlier post, 3408. I suspect that you haven't replied because it asks a lot of questions which seriously pull to pieces your opinions, arguments and representations. And you continue to not directly respond to counter arguments to your posts. All you do s moan that the fanatics are idol worshipping JB and claiming he is faultless! When quite the reverse, merely being realistic and trying to have a proper conversation not endlessly have to work round your not-backed-up opinions. 

 

 

 

Treads.

 

1) I have much better things to do than troll.

 

2) If somebody having a differing opinion to yours frustrates you, especially if it's about a subject so, in the grand scheme of things, insignificant and ephemeral as an F1 driver's performances, seek help. There are better things to be frustrated about - either Miliband or Vichy Dave will be the next PM, Farage won't - now that's something worth getting frustrated about... 

 

3) What was that you were saying about 3408?

 

You have your opinion on JB this year. I have mine. Can you not 'take' that? Even if you don't agree with it and the thought of somebody else thinking differently about JB than you do makes you mad, why not just ignore?  


Edited by tokyonagaremono, 12 October 2013 - 22:03.


#3427 Treads

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 22:13

"This is the type of silly nonsensical question I was just writing about in another post. Some (most!) drivers are, I believe, hustling and getting the max out of their cars - even JB sometimes! When I say I think JB could squeeze more, why should I believe everyone could? That's an idiotic argument. I think JB can squeeze more. And when you say "what realistic basis do you think that Jenson should be out-qualifying Alonso and Kimi, who are both top notch drivers, in a car which every piece of evidence suggests is weaker than their cars? Because that is what I am having trouble with...", well, perhaps (and careful now, don't spit your coffee all over your PC), just perhaps, I don't think the Macca was that bad compared to the Ferrari/Lotus (today). Or maybe FA or KR had shit quallys? - I don't care why they were there today or if they could have gone faster, they were just ahead of JB today and he didn't seem up for a bit of hustling. Next!"

 

Dude, seriously, take a step back and maybe you'll see completely miss the point here fella. Completely and utterly fail to grasp the very simple purpose of the questions. I get that you think JB can get more out and the others can't. I'm asking you to justify why you 'think' JB can squeeze more but that the others can't? You believe the others are hustling and getting the best out of the car - WHY? Answer that, you consistently won't. Why should JB be seen as not hustling and getting the max? 

 

I am asking WHY you think JB isn't hustling and yet you think the others are. And you don't answer the question! You side-step it? Are you incapable of answering a direct question? 

 

You roll in today and say 'typical example, JB if he'd tried harder, could have hustled more, could have pulled out another 3 tenths and beaten FA & KR.' I'm saying, WHY? Why do you feel that? What fact points you to that conclusion? There is just as much evidence that JB absolutely maxed out the car. i.e. zero. You haven't said anything other than you think KR, FA, etc are hustling, and you think JB isn't. Maybe he was hustling to the max to get so close to them in the first place? Thought of that? Maybe today, at a track he loves and always goes well at, he was absolutely pushing to the maximum, super motivated to be racing in front of his girlfriend's parents and in a country that is a second home to him? 

 

Based on your posts today, it is just as valid for me to say "I believe JB maxed out the car, and I believe Alonso could have done 3 tenths better". Utterly pointless waste of time because no one cares what you believe, they want to hear logical well laid out and not circular arguments. My logical argument would be "JB maxed out the potential of the car because we know he goes well round Suzuka, beat his team mate, put in three laps of almost identical times, says he maxed the car, and had one of his smallest gaps to pole (in absolute terms) of the season; whereas I think Alonso could have done better because his team mate actually did do better". That is the opposite of your argument and your haven't laid out any arguments why you think that other than you think that. Completely lame. 

 

You can't give any reason why you think he should have hustled more other than you feel that or it is your opinion! You don't wheel out any persuasive argument or data. You don't point to a specific race. Your posts are lazy and you don't do your research. 

 

Check this out - gap to P1 from JB at every race this season. 

Australia GP 2.9   Malaysian GP 3.5   Chinese GP 3   Bahrain GP No Time   Spanish GP 0.6 Out in Q2, Q2 deficit Monaco GP 1.5   Canadian GP 1.9 Out in Q2, Q2 deficit British GP No Time   German GP No time   Hungarian GP 1.9 Out in Q2, Q2 deficit Belgian GP 2   Italian GP 4.3   Singapore GP 1.4   Korean GP 0.8   Japanese GP 0.9  

This is me doing research. Per this, JB was closer to P1 in terms of time that any race this season, except Korea, in a car that hasn't been developed in 5 races.  

Your whole argument boils down to the fact that you feel that JB could be doing better. With utterly nothing to back it up. You still give absolutely nothing. I get what your opinion is, as previously stated, now I'm asking for a logical explanation. And you don't have one. 

 

"5) Yes, JB had a chance to start P8 or maybe P7 (or maybe not, maybe the 0.3 wasn't in the car). But all the other drivers there had a chance to qualify 0.3 seconds better (or maybe they didn't, maybe the 0.3 wasn't in the car). So how can you conclude this? Why do you think he didn't go for it? 

 

This is almost the same question as 2). Isn't it? We'd have to ask him why he didn't go for it. Maybe he did and he made a silly mistake. Next!"

 

Dude I do not understand that you don't get this. I am asking you to justify / back up your opinion that he didn't go for it. You are answering a different question. I'm not asking what his motivation is, I'm asking what your evidence / support / event that causes you to think this / anything to back up this 'he didn't go for it' as anything other than your imagination?  As far as I can see there is absolutely no reason to think that he didn't go for it. He ran in Q3, on soft tyres. In what way is this 'not going for it?' Clearly he went for it and he didn't make it, that is completely a different thing. 

Please enlightenment as to why you think it is so obvious he didn't go for it? 

 

What evidence, m'lord? Evidence in a case like this? Is JB better than KR? was Pele better than Maradona? Is butter better than marg? I could ask, if you disagree, what evidence there is to the contrary, apart from your guesses and feelingsNext!

 

I refer you to my previous point. You are nobody, I am nobody, our own opinions, guesses and feeling are of NO interest to anyone on this board. However, the reasoning and thought process behind that is the interesting thing; I am asking you for justification, background, you know, something to support some bold and controversial (and may I say it, ridiculous and controversial) statements. 

 

Like I told you, I know he's better (or, he could be better); he's driven better in previous seasons. Re the second part of your question, imagine FA or SV or LH in the same car, if you think they'd be unable to get more out of it than JB you are more than a normal 'fan' and I can't help you any further; if you agree that they could probably squeeze more out of it, then we just disagree about how capable JB is (and what that actually means is I think he's better than you do, cos I think he should/could be nearer to where they'd be; you don't, you think he's at his absolute max now...) Next!

 

This is such a weak and ludicrous point, that is what I am trying to say. You are making a guesstimate of how good they would be in the same car, based on your guesstimate of how good the car is aligned with your guesstimate of how well JB is performing. 

 

 

Every argument and opinion on F1 could be shown to be circular to some extent

 

This is 100% true. To some extent. Your argument is 'JB isn't having a good year because he's barely better than Perez, who isn't very good. Perez isn't very good because he's not good relative to JB who isn't having a good year. JB isn't having a good year because he's barely better than Perez, who isn't very good. Perez isn't very good because he's not good relative to JB who isn't having a good year. JB isn't having a good year because he's barely better than Perez, who isn't very good. Perez isn't very good because he's not good relative to JB who isn't having a good year. JB isn't having a good year because he's barely better than Perez, who isn't very good. Perez isn't very good because he's not good relative to JB who isn't having a good year. JB isn't having a good year because he's barely better than Perez, who isn't very good. Perez isn't very good because he's not good relative to JB who isn't having a good year.' Ad infinitum. Entirely circular. 

 

 

Are you not understanding where people get frustration from? You don't give specific arguments; you side-stepped questions; you will never be specific; you won't give any research. 


Edited by Treads, 12 October 2013 - 22:28.


#3428 MightyMoose

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 22:13

We need to be careful that we don't turn this into a JB drivers thread, I know it's very tempting to engage each other when argumentative opinions are forced in, but we've all deviated away from the topic in pursuit of backing up our views.  Obviously Rosberg, Webber, Alonso are very much off-topic, JB vs SP 2013 please.

 

FWIW, I've got this marked down as a pretty good season for JB, he's been pretty consistent, had a few bumps & runs, plus the traditional McLaren reliability woes/odd strategy at bad times but I can't honestly say that there's been many occasions when I've looked and thought "Why the hell is he in that position?"  As for SP, I think unfortunately he's merely continued on from his post-Monza 2012 form, he's pushed his luck quite often - Monaco being the obvious - and even though it appears that he's sometimes got the pace in his foot, he certainly appears to be lacking in the "race" brain.

 

Obviously I consider "race brain" as 1 of JB's strengths, and so it's possibly unfair to be too harsh on SP for being clearly inferior (IMO) at that, but in my mind, 2014 is a massive season for SP already.



#3429 Treads

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 22:39

Amen Moose.
I am hoping for some formation flying tomorrow rather than JB & Checo scrapping and ruining one another's races.
Hopefully they can both get a good start and make a two stopper work.
I predict JB wins the battle in the end despite the tyre disadvantage...

#3430 tokyonagaremono

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 22:40

 

 

 

Cool down. I told you already, your 'evidence' is not 'evidence' in the way you've convinced yourself it is, but I'm not going to repeat all that again. You demand 'proof, proof, proof!' when there is none on either side. Even that 'proof' you think you're providing to back up your hunch - it's just one dataset from hundreds. It's just data, 'things' that you can hang your preconceptions on. Do you know how good the McLaren is? Really? Because if you don't, your whole argument is built on sand. Do you really, really not get that? We watch the same thing, we hear the same comments from the drivers, we all reach different conclusions.  

 

You fail completely to address many points. Just for illustration I'll cut&paste just one and ask you to respond to it:

Imagine FA or SV or LH in the same car, if you think they'd be unable to get more out of it than JB you are more than a normal 'fan' and I can't help you any further; if you agree that they could probably squeeze more out of it, then we just disagree about how capable JB is (and what that actually means is I think he's better than you do, cos I think he should/could be nearer to where they'd be; you don't, you think he's at his absolute max now...)

Respond, don't run. Could FA, SV or LH get more out of this car in your opinion? You call it a 'weak and ludicrous' point - BUT WHAT'S YOUR ANSWER? C'mon.  

 

 

 

There is such a determination to 'defend' your man against perceived slight, I really can't fathom it, and I gotta tell you, dude, it gives off a real homoerotic vibe. I'm sure that's not the impression you're meaning to give... 



#3431 MightyMoose

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 22:42

Obviously I wasn't clear enough.

 

BACK ON TOPIC PLEASE!



#3432 Mauseri

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 22:45

Is it not impossible to give more than 100% ?

It depends what is the reference. Human performance may vary depending on physiological and mental factors. It is never possible toperform 100% of what is ultimately possible with the given condition of the car and the track. Human factor is never able to give 100%. The driver performance is usually less in long race than a couple of fast laps too. The most brilliant qualifying lap is always below 100%, but we are allowed to be in awe because we don't know of better.


Edited by Mauseri, 12 October 2013 - 22:46.


#3433 spacekid

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 23:49

Wow, this thread has certainly taken a turn for the strange.

 

Is Jenson doing a better job than Perez? In my opinion yes.

 

Is Jenson the best driver on the grid? In my opinion no, but he's still very good.

 

Anyway the point is, is Jenson having a better season that his team mate? I honestly can't see an argument that he isn't, so don't really understand all the angst.



#3434 Lights

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:52

I read a lot of posts saying Jenson is on a used hard tire for the race, but he's really on a used medium. With a usual start, I think it will be tough for him with Sergio in the beginning.



#3435 HammyHamiltonFan

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:38

good 9th place finish for Jenson, 60 points this season now for him, more than twice what Perez has, you wonder how Jenson/McLaren might have done with a better car/team-mate tbh.



#3436 Force Ten

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:39

With a usual start, I think it will be tough for him with Sergio in the beginning.

You were correct, fortunately there's more to a Formula One Grand Prix race than just a beginning :) If  the race results were retroactively been sampled at somewhere around lap 7 Jenson would probably fare allot worse...



#3437 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:40

I'm really struggling to understand how throughout the races Sergio can look like he's beating Jenson and then come the chequered flag Jenson is in the points and Sergio is miles back.



#3438 Lights

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:41

You were correct, fortunately there's more to a Formula One Grand Prix race than just a beginning :) If  the race results were retroactively been sampled at somewhere around lap 7 Jenson would probably fare allot worse...

Yeah as I predicted, Sergio had a much better first stint. Jenson did not have good pace because he was always on the back foot with the tire situation. But then they switched to Plan 'B' and Jenson made that work very well.



#3439 Force Ten

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:42

good 9th place finish for Jenson, 60 points this season now for him, more than twice what Perez has, you wonder how Jenson/McLaren might have done with a better car/team-mate tbh.

What the hell happened with Perez anyway? What tyre did he start with? A new hard? Then it is kinda weird that he dropped so far back after showing so good apparent pace at the beginning of the race.



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#3440 Lights

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:42

I'm really struggling to understand how throughout the races Sergio can look like he's beating Jenson and then come the chequered flag Jenson is in the points and Sergio is miles back.

 

Not sure, but it doesn't help Sergio to keep dicking around in braking zones.



#3441 HammyHamiltonFan

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:46

What the hell happened with Perez anyway? What tyre did he start with? A new hard? Then it is kinda weird that he dropped so far back after showing so good apparent pace at the beginning of the race.

 

too aggressive on his tyres as always so had to make more stops than Jenson/lost more time as tyres wore, it's been the same for him all season really, at times he is very quick but he can't balance pace and tyre management anything like as well as others do, I really hope McLaren get Alonso back or bring in someone with a better head on their shoulders for next year, Perez I think would just be a liability if McLaren are in the hunt for the WCC.



#3442 Collective

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:47

too aggressive on his tyres as always so had to make more stops than Jenson/lost more time as tyres wore, it's been the same for him all season really, at times he is very quick but he can't balance pace and tyre management anything like as well as others do, I really hope McLaren get Alonso back or bring in someone with a better head on their shoulders for next year, Perez I think would just be a liability if McLaren are in the hunt for the WCC.

Nah, it was contact from Rosberg that caused a puncture. He was on a two stopper before that. 



#3443 Force Ten

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:49

too aggressive on his tyres as always so had to make more stops than Jenson/lost more time as tyres wore,

Figured. At the early part of the race it looked rather grim from JB's point of view and then Sergios race only got worse and worse. His pace was so bad at one point that I thought they are for sure going for a 2 stop. When he made the third it was all over.



#3444 Lights

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:50

Figured. At the early part of the race it looked rather grim from JB's point of view and then Sergios race only got worse and worse. His pace was so bad at one point that I thought they are for sure going for a 2 stop. When he made the third it was all over.

 

I think the idea for Sergio was to finish on a 2 stopper.

 

Mind you, Jenson would have caught up and passed him anyway.


Edited by Lights, 13 October 2013 - 07:50.


#3445 Force Ten

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:51

I think the idea for Sergio was to finish on a 2 stopper.

 

Mind you, I think Jenson would have caught up and passed him anyway.

Agreed. But did he start on a new mediums them? He was Massa-slow on the end of the long stints indeed.



#3446 Lights

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:53

Agreed. But did he start on a new mediums them? He was Massa-slow on the end of the long stints indeed.

 

I think Sergio went new hard - new med - new hard? and then punctured.



#3447 HammyHamiltonFan

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:53

Nah, it was contact from Rosberg that caused a puncture. He was on a two stopper before that. 

 

he gets in those situations so often though...way way more than he should...imo it's cause he pushes too hard at times, if he could find the right balance of pace and keeping his head he wouldn't find himself in the situation where he gets contact so much and ends up losing out from it.



#3448 Force Ten

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:57

I think Sergio went new hard - new med - new hard? and then punctured.

He did 2 laps in Q1 and 2 laps in Q2 so I don't think he had 2 new hards. He looked really competitive until few laps before his second pitstop and then his pace dropped like a rock and never really recovered.



#3449 Paul084

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:04

Good drive from Button, still managed points despite bad start.

Perez was doing decent but he doesn't seem to learn his lessons, again he squeezes a driver when there is just no need and again he pays the price. He needs to think about his driving, Grosjean did it and look where he is now...


Edited by Paul084, 13 October 2013 - 08:04.


#3450 Lights

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:14

Jenson said it was his mistake for the first part, he took some front end out before the race and that gave him too much understeer. Should have been 2 places up I can imagine so that's a shame.