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Button v Perez - 2013


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#251 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:37

I did. Its just I didnt see anything worth repsonding too as it was abundantly clear from it that you dont have a balanced or unbiased opinion of Jenson. Which is fairly typical of quite a few Lewis fans.

Did you see the bit I said about it only being worth a Lewis fan posting in this thread if they can drop the bitterness and post something genuinly objective?


Fair enough, I can see where you are coming from if your mind is already set about 'Hamilton fans'

maybe in a week from now more info and data will be available to move this thread from maybe slightly biased opinions to more objective reactions all round :)

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#252 Burtros

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:58

Fair enough, I can see where you are coming from if your mind is already set about 'Hamilton fans'

maybe in a week from now more info and data will be available to move this thread from maybe slightly biased opinions to more objective reactions all round :)


My mind is set on why someone who supports Hamilton would post here, calling it in favour of Perez with attempted reasoning that there is no evidence to support yet. Its the same reason why I think Ive posted once in the Rosberg vs Hamilton thread which were just my outline thoughts, and Ive not gone back again. No evidence to comment on, or make a call either way. I couldnt be objective in that scenario.

I couldnt agree more with your last line though :) I think we all need F1 to start again.

Edited by Burtros, 11 March 2013 - 13:00.


#253 Juggles

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 13:17

I expect SP to surprise a few people with is aggression and with his overall driving style.... I dont think he will be as much of a JB style driver as people think.

I agree with you except that I dont know how good he is so I dont know how easily JB will beat him ... but I would be very surprised if JB were to lose. - but I would be delighted to see it happen :p


I wouldn't. Hamilton's reputation is now in part tied to Button's just as it is to Alonso's and, previously, Kovalainen's. It's the same with any former teammates. If Perez, for example, outqualifies Button by similar proportions and gaps as Hamilton did then, while we can't draw definite conclusions about how Perez compares to Hamilton it will raise questions.

Having said that, I'm not worried. I think Button can handle himself and I'd back him to beat Perez quite comfortably over the season, though I think it will be nip and tuck in qualifying.

#254 Hairy

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 13:18

This is a good example of why you really shouldnt base your prediction for a season on one cherry picked stat that suites your agenda.

Its tells him Buttons not a good driver. It tells us that Hairy's opinion on this particular subject really isnt worth very much.


It's a fairly good assessment of what happened when they both had reliable cars, or when they were on the track together. We can do qualifying head to heads too, or how many seasons they won against each other. There is one stat that Button fans use to suggest their man is better, and thats points over their seasons together. One stat, highly stacked in their favour. In every other measurable, Hamilton comes out on top.

I think Button will struggle against perez, as I don't rate Button. Last year he was rinsed by Hamilton, but the stats will not tell you that. Everyone, apart from a select few, understands this. Perez is an able driver, whom I think will put it to Button.

#255 PARAZAR

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 13:27

Seriously can certain Hamilton fans get over it already and venture back to the appropriate threads to discuss about Lewis. This is the Button Vs Perez thread, nothing to do with Lewis. It's starting to get tedious and annoying. I, just like Burtros have only posted here once because frankly I'll just have to wait for the weekend to see how they measure against each other.

#256 zack1994

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 13:28

It's a fairly good assessment of what happened when they both had reliable cars, or when they were on the track together. We can do qualifying head to heads too, or how many seasons they won against each other. There is one stat that Button fans use to suggest their man is better, and thats points over their seasons together. One stat, highly stacked in their favour. In every other measurable, Hamilton comes out on top.

I think Button will struggle against perez, as I don't rate Button. Last year he was rinsed by Hamilton, but the stats will not tell you that. Everyone, apart from a select few, understands this. Perez is an able driver, whom I think will put it to Button.

Button got rinsed because for most of the year he struggled with the tyres, that should'nt be a problem this year.

#257 mattferg

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 13:34

Before jumping in with the indignation please consider this;

That post you are jumping on is a response. My original post does not even mention Hamilton. You dont want to address the original post and its clear suggestion that Perez will beat Button?

Eddie Irvin beat MS on points one season, what matters is how many seasons this happened. We dont remember Irvine as comparable to MS, why should Button be likewise comparable to Lewis for pure circumstantial statistical things. F1 is about winning things, these things are accounted for on a yearly basis.
In the 3 years Lewis monstered his teammate in qualifying, spent most of the time they were both on track infront, had more wins, more poles
The overall points difference can be attributed to dnfs and retirements. Unless Button can count on a similar reason I expect Perez to be ahead this season mainly because he should qualify ahead more and hold the position on track (IMHO)
Jenson has the experience and pace to see off Sergio, however I feel he will be severely handicapped this year by the 28s expected need for lots of lengthy setup changes in FP which will lead to more hit or miss qualis for Jenson as i perceive him to already have a narrower comfort window than Perez as evidenced by testing


Lol cookingflatsix always showing your ignorance. This was 1999, where Schumacher missed 6 races because he broke his leg. Don't remember that happening to Hamilton. Even then he matched Hamilton's 5th to Button's 2nd.

Even in your later posts you compare Schumacher missing 6 races due to his leg as the same as Lewis getting into scraps with Massa and ending his race.. Seriously?!

Anyhew back on topic - I'm looking forward to two McLaren drivers when are both pretty good and don't have any animosity towards each other :-) hasn't happened in a long, long time.

Edited by mattferg, 11 March 2013 - 13:39.


#258 Juggles

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 13:39

It's a fairly good assessment of what happened when they both had reliable cars, or when they were on the track together. We can do qualifying head to heads too, or how many seasons they won against each other. There is one stat that Button fans use to suggest their man is better, and thats points over their seasons together. One stat, highly stacked in their favour. In every other measurable, Hamilton comes out on top.

I think Button will struggle against perez, as I don't rate Button. Last year he was rinsed by Hamilton, but the stats will not tell you that. Everyone, apart from a select few, understands this. Perez is an able driver, whom I think will put it to Button.


Why is it your responsibility to make these "select few" understand? You seem less like a Hamilton fan than a Hamilton missionary. Anyway, they understand it just as well as you do. They are just understandably reacting to your misplaced prodding.

#259 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 13:40

Button got rinsed because for most of the year he struggled with the tyres, that should'nt be a problem this year.


This year he could have a different problem, he has at some stage each year of his career so far including 2009.

the candidate for this year is lost time on track in practice due to setup changes required for trying to understand the new car with its excessive understeer possible induced by the front suspension change.

Note that Sergio already spent more time on track and less in the pits during testing despite himself stating that 'the car was designed around Button'

I just feel that Perez has a more 'just get on with what i have' attitude than Jenson, which might be key this season with limited testing + aggressively designed and unpredictable new car with development scope

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#260 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 13:44

Lol cookingflatsix always showing your ignorance. This was 1999, where Schumacher missed 6 races because he broke his leg. Don't remember that happening to Hamilton. Even then he matched Hamilton's 5th to Button's 2nd.


I should like to refer the honourable gentleman to the reply I gave earlier concerning the setting of a principle

unless the gentlemans logical process is not able to digest and address that response ofcourse

#261 PARAZAR

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 13:49

This year he could have a different problem, he has at some stage each year of his career so far including 2009.

the candidate for this year is lost time on track in practice due to setup changes required for trying to understand the new car with its excessive understeer possible induced by the front suspension change.

Note that Sergio already spent more time on track and less in the pits during testing despite himself stating that 'the car was designed around Button'

I just feel that Perez has a more 'just get on with what i have' attitude than Jenson, which might be key this season with limited testing + aggressively designed and unpredictable new car with development scope


And you happen to know this because? You know the exact schedule McLaren was running with each driver, what each driver was testing etc?

#262 Burtros

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 13:54

Is it time for us Button fans to accept that any thread about our favourite driver is just going to get inundated with Hamilton fans talking him down?

I dont really konw what the mods could do about it even.

Its very sad if you ask me:(


#263 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 13:55

And you happen to know this because? You know the exact schedule McLaren was running with each driver, what each driver was testing etc?


what each driver said, the times spent on track relative to others that day, lap times. These are all well documented, forgive me for not feeling that this overall assumption is such a revelation that I need to post each link

#264 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 14:05

Is it time for us Button fans to accept that any thread about our favourite driver is just going to get inundated with Hamilton fans talking him down?

I dont really konw what the mods could do about it even.

Its very sad if you ask me:(


now now, why keep mentioning Hamilton? All McLaren fans will have an interest in this inter team battle. In fact many will have a preference for 1 driver over the other

Jenson needs to prove himself against the young confident charger, why should he receive a waiver? Why should Checo have to assume the role of the defeated just because he has replaced Hamilton

Try engage a little, debate the rivalry a bit, maybe even wait till a few races have passed before crying to the mods to complain about poor Button not receiving the accolades that are rightfully his

This is not all about Jenson, Checo said recently he was confident of beating Button

I am sure Button himself is relishing the competition and doesn't want a thread called Sergio vs Jenson to be all about blowing roses up his exhaust



#265 Bloggsworth

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 14:20

This thread has been quiet for a while - I think the reason is that neither Button fans nor Perez fans have anything much to say until we see them on track together.


Or to put it another way, delete this thread and restart it at the weekend...

#266 zack1994

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 14:25

This year he could have a different problem, he has at some stage each year of his career so far including 2009.

the candidate for this year is lost time on track in practice due to setup changes required for trying to understand the new car with its excessive understeer possible induced by the front suspension change.

Note that Sergio already spent more time on track and less in the pits during testing despite himself stating that 'the car was designed around Button'

I just feel that Perez has a more 'just get on with what i have' attitude than Jenson, which might be key this season with limited testing + aggressively designed and unpredictable new car with development scope

I think these set-up problems are temporary, mclaren will sort that out and tbh excesssive understeer is better than loads of oversteer when it comes to button.
I don't know what perez prefers in a worst case scenario concerning set-up understeer or oversteer.

#267 Mc_Silver

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 14:27

I think Perez is pretty aggressive driver behind the wheel. I don't know why people think he has similar smooth driving style as Jenson. I find his style more similar to Lewis's really.

#268 Burtros

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 14:29

now now, why keep mentioning Hamilton? All McLaren fans will have an interest in this inter team battle. In fact many will have a preference for 1 driver over the other

Jenson needs to prove himself against the young confident charger, why should he receive a waiver? Why should Checo have to assume the role of the defeated just because he has replaced Hamilton

Try engage a little, debate the rivalry a bit, maybe even wait till a few races have passed before crying to the mods to complain about poor Button not receiving the accolades that are rightfully his

This is not all about Jenson, Checo said recently he was confident of beating Button

I am sure Button himself is relishing the competition and doesn't want a thread called Sergio vs Jenson to be all about blowing roses up his exhaust


I would engage if the arguments were actually coherent, of value or of interest, or there was anything really to debate at this point.

For example - you currently appear to be claiming that Jenson will waste a lot of time on setup this year. Thats based on testing and some observations you have made. Well thats bollocks. You dont know why Jense did less laps - or Sergio did more and you dont know what they were aiming for when they worked on the car. Therefore, your assumption is fatally flawwed from the very start.

Frankly, until the end of Qualy, detailed assesments and blanket statements about who will 'deffinalty win because the other one is crap' are misplaced and not worth engaging in debate with.

I seriously hope that Autosport Mods are looking at this and next year these Vs threads are banned until something like 2 days before the first practice sesssion.



#269 MP422

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 14:36

I would engage if the arguments were actually coherent, of value or of interest, or there was anything really to debate at this point.

For example - you currently appear to be claiming that Jenson will waste a lot of time on setup this year. Thats based on testing and some observations you have made. Well thats bollocks. You dont know why Jense did less laps - or Sergio did more and you dont know what they were aiming for when they worked on the car. Therefore, your assumption is fatally flawwed from the very start.

Frankly, until the end of Qualy, detailed assesments and blanket statements about who will 'deffinalty win because the other one is crap' are misplaced and not worth engaging in debate with.

I seriously hope that Autosport Mods are looking at this and next year these Vs threads are banned until something like 2 days before the first practice sesssion.



Jenson has struggled with balance throughout his career and most recently 2012, one doesn't have to look back at testing as the isolated cause of this doubt that some people may suggest. It's an opinion a topic for debate. I for one am waiting to see the pair on track and how the team is operating before gathering assumptions either way.

Your favorite driver gets criticism and you call out for bans ? that's maybe something you should do in a PM.

Edited by MP422, 11 March 2013 - 14:36.


#270 PARAZAR

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 14:50

I think it's safe to say anyone with a passing understanding of F1 would know JB got rinsed last year. I am no LH missionary (whatever the feck that is), just pointing out that JB is not in fact the messiah; he's ordinary, and I think Perez will have the beating of him.


I can't speak for anyone else but personally I've never thought that Jenson is the messiah, he's an F1 driver. I may be wrong but from what I've seen around here there isn't one Button supporter that will tell you that he's perfect. Furthermore who one chooses to support is a personal choice and whether you agree with it or not that's your problem. So I can't understand the effort you're putting in trying to undermine his achievements or trying to convince people that he's ordinary. There isn't one driver in F1 that's ordinary, they wouldn't get into F1 if they were ordinary, at least not in the past. As far as Perez Vs Button is concerned I have yet to see sth that would convince me that Perez will have the beating of him. Later this week when the McLaren officialy turns a wheel during a race weekend we can see how each driver measures up.

#271 Mc_Silver

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 14:51

I can't speak for anyone else but personally I've never thought that Jenson is the messiah, he's an F1 driver. I may be wrong but from what I've seen around here there isn't one Button supporter that will tell you that he's perfect. Furthermore who one chooses to support is a personal choice and whether you agree with it or not that's your problem. So I can't understand the effort you're putting in trying to undermine his achievements or trying to convince people that he's ordinary. There isn't one driver in F1 that's ordinary, they wouldn't get into F1 if they were ordinary, at least not in the past. As far as Perez Vs Button is concerned I have yet to see sth that would convince me that Perez will have the beating of him. Later this week when the McLaren officialy turns a wheel during a race weekend we can see how each driver measures up.


:up: :up:


#272 WitnessX

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 15:02

I would engage if the arguments were actually coherent, of value or of interest, or there was anything really to debate at this point.

For example - you currently appear to be claiming that Jenson will waste a lot of time on setup this year. Thats based on testing and some observations you have made. Well thats bollocks. You dont know why Jense did less laps - or Sergio did more and you dont know what they were aiming for when they worked on the car. Therefore, your assumption is fatally flawwed from the very start.

Frankly, until the end of Qualy, detailed assesments and blanket statements about who will 'deffinalty win because the other one is crap' are misplaced and not worth engaging in debate with.

I seriously hope that Autosport Mods are looking at this and next year these Vs threads are banned until something like 2 days before the first practice sesssion.

Bad news I'm afraid, I've checked house rules and apparently "talking out your arse" (in the proverbial sense) is not specifically banned. Although I have found the [Report] button works well.

I suggest if you suspect that somebody is trolling then just ignore, there is nothing more that bored trolls hate than being ignored.

Edited by WitnessX, 11 March 2013 - 15:04.


#273 MirNyet

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 15:04

It is hard to imagine Perez beating Button for the same reason that Hamilton didn't thrash him on points - Button is very good at bringing the car home. Because F1 is points based (and not results as such), it favors drivers who get the car over the line regardless of their points position over those that while they may be faster - or raced better tend to have issues in the race - be that accidents or car problems.

While it may not be accknowledged as such - this is a skill, it may not be as impressive as quali speed, or overtaking aggression, but at the end of the day its the points that count and as the old saying goes - in F1 to finish first, first you have to finish.

Until Perez (and Hamilton for that matter) learn to stay out of trouble, they are always going to have a hard time with the likes of Button.



#274 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 15:14

I would engage if the arguments were actually coherent, of value or of interest, or there was anything really to debate at this point.

For example - you currently appear to be claiming that Jenson will waste a lot of time on setup this year. Thats based on testing and some observations you have made. Well thats bollocks. You dont know why Jense did less laps - or Sergio did more and you dont know what they were aiming for when they worked on the car. Therefore, your assumption is fatally flawwed from the very start.


Jenson Button stunned rivals with his pace in cold conditions on the first day in Jerez testing, but car performance has been inconsistent since then. New team mate Sergio Perez has looked strong in long-run tests and was fastest on the second day in Jerez, but both drivers report that they are still having trouble understanding their new machine.

It may be that they get their heads round that early on, especially if there are decent track temperatures in Melbourne and Malaysia, but equally it may take a little longer than that. Set-up changes reportedly took too long in Barcelona, to Button’s frustration, and the team are still at an early point on the learning curve which could compromise them in the opening races.

But the flipside is that the MP4-28 arguably has greater development potential than its rivals because of the team’s adventurous design approach, which should bode well as the season progresses.

Expect McLaren to be as strong as they were in 2012, but perhaps as inconsistent until they get their car sorted fully.

http://www.formula1....13/3/14318.html

So from the horses mouth - frustrated by setup change time, yes Checo also but he did more time on track pointing to less 'finetuning for his desires'. this PLUS the fact that Sergio has said the car was designed more for Buttons preference in first place than his own PLUS his lap times were overall more consistent, whereas Buttons swung from absolute fastest on day 1 to mid grid later.

Now if anyway would like to argue that Formula1 are also making statements that are not actually coherent, of value or of interest then perhaps all forums should be shut down as well as the right for observers to draw personal conclusions based on the evidence.

Like I said before, in 1 week we will have more info to go by, but we dont have a time machine right now so if the feds do listen to you and shut the thread, can you also ask Formula1 to shut their mouths?

Edited by CookinFlatSix, 11 March 2013 - 15:15.


#275 Burtros

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 15:18

Jenson has struggled with balance throughout his career and most recently 2012, one doesn't have to look back at testing as the isolated cause of this doubt that some people may suggest. It's an opinion a topic for debate. I for one am waiting to see the pair on track and how the team is operating before gathering assumptions either way.

Your favorite driver gets criticism and you call out for bans ? that's maybe something you should do in a PM.


Its nothing to do with my favourite driver. Any search of my posts will show I can call it when Jensons dones a shit job. I'll say so. Its typical of this debate that someone would take my point, made very clearly, and then twist it into something like that though.

One more time, Its the quality of debate, or what there is actually to debate at this stage thats the problem.

If you want to talk with Hairy about how Jensons clearly shit and destined to loose badly to Perez, based on soley 2012 then be my guest.


#276 Force Ten

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 15:20

Now if anyway would like to argue that Formula1 are also making statements that are not actually coherent, of value or of interest

Nobody is saying that the arguments are not coherent. Understanding what was written seems to be a problem for a select few here.

#277 Burtros

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 15:42

http://www.formula1....13/3/14318.html

So from the horses mouth - frustrated by setup change time, yes Checo also but he did more time on track pointing to less 'finetuning for his desires'. this PLUS the fact that Sergio has said the car was designed more for Buttons preference in first place than his own PLUS his lap times were overall more consistent, whereas Buttons swung from absolute fastest on day 1 to mid grid later.

Now if anyway would like to argue that Formula1 are also making statements that are not actually coherent, of value or of interest then perhaps all forums should be shut down as well as the right for observers to draw personal conclusions based on the evidence.

Like I said before, in 1 week we will have more info to go by, but we dont have a time machine right now so if the feds do listen to you and shut the thread, can you also ask Formula1 to shut their mouths?


Boldfaced but is the only relevent bit for me here.

Firstly the link. It doesnt back up what you are saying at all. It says BOTH drivers struggled with setup. Not Jenson more than Perez. Do you think people dont click the links or something?

I'll make this simple. While the increased time you claim Sergio got on track could point to worrying times for Jenson, yes, its equally as likley that Perez got all that extra time in the car because as you say yourself, it was designed more for Buttons preference? Its also likley McLaren wanted to bed in their new driver, get him used to the car, engine, engineers, team, proceedures etc. You dont know which it is, you cant even make an educated guess between those 3 examples if you are being objective.

There is no way that anyone who is being objective would draw any conclusions from what you have written on the subject for the reasons I have given above. Certainly anyone drawing conclusions from the above cannot expect to be be taken seriously.

In addition, I think the likes of you draw conclusions like this because you dont understand what it is to interrogate the evidence before hand. You see something that suites your opinion and run with it. You never stop to play devils advocate and challenge your own thoughts.

If you did, you'd have realised it doesnt point to JB struggling any more or less than it does to Perez struggling.

Edited by Burtros, 11 March 2013 - 15:46.


#278 Claudius

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 15:49

I think Perez is pretty aggressive driver behind the wheel. I don't know why people think he has similar smooth driving style as Jenson. I find his style more similar to Lewis's really.


I think that is due to him having races in which he made his tires last for a long time. Hence ppl think he is a smooth driver, like Jenson.


#279 MirNyet

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 15:52

I think that is due to him having races in which he made his tires last for a long time. Hence ppl think he is a smooth driver, like Jenson.


I have to admit, this was my impression - look forward to being wrong as two limo drivers would be a borefest.

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#280 MightyMoose

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 17:03

Is it time for us Button fans to accept that any thread about our favourite driver is just going to get inundated with Hamilton fans talking him down?

I dont really konw what the mods could do about it even.

Its very sad if you ask me:(


Well lets see, people have clearly taken this off-topic so those who are offended by that detour have sent in reports correct?..... Oh, not a single report today for this thread. Makes our lives somewhat difficult when nobody reports and plenty respond.

Now of course derailing topics is against our forum rules, as is the flaming, trolling and occasional insult. We'd like to treat people like adults, but the drivers threads were removed because way too many concerned themselves with rivalries rather than making it a debate, so do we come in with a heavy stick, slam a thread closed and beat a few heads (metaphorically of course) or work around the lack of co-operation removing several privileges from those offending even to the smallest scale?

There is a thread where it's become popular to slag off the moderators with anyone who has a personal grievance ignoring the information and details behind our decision, on that same thread we've been referred to as power-tripping and others say it's a great improvement, interesting opposite perspectives of the same call. So ask yourselves this, do you care about this forum or not, because frankly if threads are going to hell, the responsibility lies not with us, but with you, the posters, and the VAST majority of you are guilty of making/ignoring the rules here to suit your own agenda.

The easiest way to get threads back on track is to report and let us deal with the responsible party.... responding to it takes the thread on a tangent and inevitably widens the gap between the topic intention and the direction it's headed, it also can increase our workload by 10, or even 20. It is totally pointless to bitch about the forum/thread when you add to the issues by ignoring breaches of rules and responding.

Note: This isn't directed to Burtros - just he asked the question- , but it should be of interest to all of you.

#281 Burtros

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 17:35

Well lets see, people have clearly taken this off-topic so those who are offended by that detour have sent in reports correct?..... Oh, not a single report today for this thread. Makes our lives somewhat difficult when nobody reports and plenty respond.

Now of course derailing topics is against our forum rules, as is the flaming, trolling and occasional insult. We'd like to treat people like adults, but the drivers threads were removed because way too many concerned themselves with rivalries rather than making it a debate, so do we come in with a heavy stick, slam a thread closed and beat a few heads (metaphorically of course) or work around the lack of co-operation removing several privileges from those offending even to the smallest scale?

There is a thread where it's become popular to slag off the moderators with anyone who has a personal grievance ignoring the information and details behind our decision, on that same thread we've been referred to as power-tripping and others say it's a great improvement, interesting opposite perspectives of the same call. So ask yourselves this, do you care about this forum or not, because frankly if threads are going to hell, the responsibility lies not with us, but with you, the posters, and the VAST majority of you are guilty of making/ignoring the rules here to suit your own agenda.

The easiest way to get threads back on track is to report and let us deal with the responsible party.... responding to it takes the thread on a tangent and inevitably widens the gap between the topic intention and the direction it's headed, it also can increase our workload by 10, or even 20. It is totally pointless to bitch about the forum/thread when you add to the issues by ignoring breaches of rules and responding.

Note: This isn't directed to Burtros - just he asked the question- , but it should be of interest to all of you.


Point taken - I was aware a lot of it was indulging in what I dislike. just for the record the problem in here isnt so much trolling else I would have reported it. Reasoned debate is impossible and has been for some time. That, is what I dont know what the mods can do to stop.

Edited by MightyMoose, 11 March 2013 - 18:07.
Removed: LH stuff which really isn't adding to the conversation


#282 mlsnoopy

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 17:59

I think that these battle will be decided by one great weekend when one of the 2 will score big points and the other even though he might be better in most races, simply won-t be able to close the gap.

Edited by mlsnoopy, 11 March 2013 - 17:59.


#283 WitnessX

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 18:42

Jenson has struggled with balance throughout his career and most recently 2012, one doesn't have to look back at testing as the isolated cause of this doubt that some people may suggest. It's an opinion a topic for debate. I for one am waiting to see the pair on track and how the team is operating before gathering assumptions either way.

Your favorite driver gets criticism and you call out for bans ? that's maybe something you should do in a PM.

Thats a fair comment, but we now have the 2013 Pirelli tyres and the MP4-28 and the relevance of past events (previous years) becomes virtually worthless.

The reference to isolated incidents in testing from journalistic observations at various times during testing and testing times themselves are inconclusive unless you know the program they are running and the environmental conditions at the time. The same test on one day at say 15degC will give different results to one later on a day that is 10degC.

Plus during the tests the car is evolving as they gather more information. Yesterdays newspapers are todays toilet paper.

So what does Button say?
"It is very difficult to know where we are in terms of pace. We have a rough idea and it is fine. We are happy with the balance and the way the car behaves but we will not know if that is enough."
http://www.guardian....ce-time-mclaren

Edited by WitnessX, 11 March 2013 - 18:43.


#284 BillBald

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 19:40

http://www.formula1....13/3/14318.html

So from the horses mouth - frustrated by setup change time, yes Checo also but he did more time on track pointing to less 'finetuning for his desires'. this PLUS the fact that Sergio has said the car was designed more for Buttons preference in first place than his own PLUS his lap times were overall more consistent, whereas Buttons swung from absolute fastest on day 1 to mid grid later.


Jenson did less laps, partly because he was more affected by bad weather, partly because he lost most of his first day with a fuel pump issue.

And if Jenson did request more setup changes, how is that a problem? That's what testing is all about.



#285 MirNyet

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 19:43

Jenson did less laps, partly because he was more affected by bad weather, partly because he lost most of his first day with a fuel pump issue.

And if Jenson did request more setup changes, how is that a problem? That's what testing is all about.


I think the general concern was that if he does this during a race weekend then as the car is now more difficult to work on, then he will burn through his available time without getting a reasonable gain or set-up... Ferrari took half a year to resolve this last year - perhaps McLaren can learn from this, or perhaps Button will suffer more than Perez who many are guessing didn't need so many set-up tweaks.



#286 tkulla

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 19:44

I'm not sure how fair it is to say that Button has had balance problems his whole career. Seems like that perception has been over-influenced by the most recent season. This is a common phenomenon in F1 fandom - even team principal's aren't immune.

And about him talking about balance, you could say that he's just giving more insight into what's happening publicly than most drivers do. Others might struggle and we just don't know why while Button tells us. He has to admit to a weakness to do so, and most drivers are unwilling to do this. The reality is that Button has very rarely been slow on Sundays during his career. In fact, his race pace has always been his primary strength.

Where he had trouble last year was finding a balance that suits both qualifying conditions and race conditions, which are quite different these days. Throw in very tricky tyres like we had in 2012 and finding that balance can be very difficult indeed. Yes, he had a rough spell because they had trouble engineering a good setup for him and he was compromised for much of the season. I don't think situation is likely to recur. The other example often cited is the second half of the Brawn year, but that team had NO MONEY to develop a solution and were forced to live with it.

The problem I see for Perez is that he has to be faster on Saturday than Button. If he's not it's not going to be pretty on the points table because I don't think he can match Jenson's race pace (which was the equal of Hamilton). The problem is that I don't see any evidence of super one-lap quickness from him. Edging Kobayashi in Q isn't exactly Senna evoking. And in the junior series' he had exactly 1 pole position in GP2 in 30 races (including the Asia series races) and 0 in 22 British F3 (premiere class) races.

Maybe the kid will step up and show he's really got the goods, but if I had to bet...





#287 oligc94

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 19:53

The other example often cited is the second half of the Brawn year, but that team had NO MONEY to develop a solution and were forced to live with it.


Although the second half of the 2009 season actually is a good example of Button's balance issues. It wasn't the fact that Button's results were getting worse (which was, of course, a result of Brawn's lack of money) that is indicative of his problems, but that Barrichello got far closer and got far better results than Button. That suggests that Button was no longer extracting the maximum from the car.


#288 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 20:05

Jenson did less laps, partly because he was more affected by bad weather, partly because he lost most of his first day with a fuel pump issue.

And if Jenson did request more setup changes, how is that a problem? That's what testing is all about.


The problem is where it says Button was frustrated by the loss of time, ofcourse maybe Sergio would also be frustrated, but Buttons history tells us the exact danger words to listen out for
Frustrated then baffled then confused then don't know where balance or grip went leading to a race like Korea 2010 etc etc
I am not making up the history that suggests when things are not perfect Button takes it worse and gives a show disproportionately worse than his talents should afford

Now I don't know if Sergio is the same but I am willing to bet big that he is less likely to disintegrate when encountering a lack of testing time because my own personal perception is that the kid is willing to get on with it and maybe even drive around things without getting frustrated and panicky and draining the teams resources to help him get comfortable

Also although Perez said the car was designed around button (his disadvantage) this was just how it was and he could still beat Jense this year, no whining about not fitting in the car, no moaning about needing to wrap the team round him, no evidence of engineers switched around to make him comfortable, no neediness requiring the more senior race engineer handed over to him

No special needs

#289 tkulla

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 20:05

Although the second half of the 2009 season actually is a good example of Button's balance issues. It wasn't the fact that Button's results were getting worse (which was, of course, a result of Brawn's lack of money) that is indicative of his problems, but that Barrichello got far closer and got far better results than Button. That suggests that Button was no longer extracting the maximum from the car.


Yes, he was not able to maximize the potential of the car as he had in the first half of the season. The team was aware of the problem though but simply lacked the means to attempt to fix it.

In any case, the myth of the second half is brought up by your stating that Barrichello got "far better results" than Jenson. The reality is quite different:

Points scored during the last 9 races (our of 17) of the 2009 F1 Season.
36 Barrichello
31 Button


#290 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 20:25

Yes, he was not able to maximize the potential of the car as he had in the first half of the season. The team was aware of the problem though but simply lacked the means to attempt to fix it.

In any case, the myth of the second half is brought up by your stating that Barrichello got "far better results" than Jenson. The reality is quite different:

Points scored during the last 9 races (our of 17) of the 2009 F1 Season.
36 Barrichello
31 Button


How about qualifying results over those races? plus retirements?
Maybe results are not a true indicator of the point being made here, maybe olig should have said performance, or extracting performance from the car
However Reubens did outscore him and therefore extrapolated over the whole season based on that half Reubens would be the 2009 WC

#291 oligc94

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 20:40

Yes, he was not able to maximize the potential of the car as he had in the first half of the season. The team was aware of the problem though but simply lacked the means to attempt to fix it.

In any case, the myth of the second half is brought up by your stating that Barrichello got "far better results" than Jenson. The reality is quite different:

Points scored during the last 9 races (our of 17) of the 2009 F1 Season.
36 Barrichello
31 Button


Fair enough, the last bit was inaccurate and I was just trying to recall from memory (clearly need it tested!). However, the point I made stands: Button was far superior to Barrichello in the first half of the 2009 season, but Barrichello was marginally better than Button in the last half. Thus, Button was clearly struggling with the car in a way he had not been at the beginning of the season.

That's why I said 2009 gave a pretty good example of Button's main problem as a driver: when he's on it, he's really on it, but in my opinion he is very rarely on it enough over the course of the season.

#292 Rinehart

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 20:47

Fair enough, the last bit was inaccurate and I was just trying to recall from memory (clearly need it tested!). However, the point I made stands: Button was far superior to Barrichello in the first half of the 2009 season, but Barrichello was marginally better than Button in the last half. Thus, Button was clearly struggling with the car in a way he had not been at the beginning of the season.

That's why I said 2009 gave a pretty good example of Button's main problem as a driver: when he's on it, he's really on it, but in my opinion he is very rarely on it enough over the course of the season.


He was driving for the points needed to secure the title. Less risky. Like a football team 1-0 up with 10 mins to go. It's not rocket science.

#293 Rinehart

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 21:00

Jenson did less laps, partly because he was more affected by bad weather, partly because he lost most of his first day with a fuel pump issue.

And if Jenson did request more setup changes, how is that a problem? That's what testing is all about.


I wouldn't bother.

#294 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 21:03

The problem I see for Perez is that he has to be faster on Saturday than Button. If he's not it's not going to be pretty on the points table because I don't think he can match Jenson's race pace (which was the equal of Hamilton). The problem is that I don't see any evidence of super one-lap quickness from him. Edging Kobayashi in Q isn't exactly Senna evoking. And in the junior series' he had exactly 1 pole position in GP2 in 30 races (including the Asia series races) and 0 in 22 British F3 (premiere class) races.

Maybe the kid will step up and show he's really got the goods, but if I had to bet...


Equal of Hamiltons race pace? can you prove this because I seem to remember Lewis lapping him one race in dry normal conditions
Kobayashi was very quick in qualifying and most people expected him to waste Perez in quali. How do you know Sergios race pace is less than Jensons in the same car? I remember him comfortably seeing off Jenson on track in a lesser car. I remember him all over the back of Alonso,

#295 GlenP

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 21:07

I imagine Perez is looking forward to learning a hell of a lot on the technical side, and I also think that Jenson will be required to take the lead in that department. Provided he doesn't get mired into a phase where he can't get the tyres switched on like he did through long spells of 2012 I would suggest that Jenson is an ideal sort of driver to take that role.

Can't wait for the season to start - really looking forward to Perez coming of age in what ought to be good car, and Jenson having a better, more consistent year.

#296 tkulla

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 21:38

Equal of Hamiltons race pace? can you prove this because I seem to remember Lewis lapping him one race in dry normal conditions
Kobayashi was very quick in qualifying and most people expected him to waste Perez in quali. How do you know Sergios race pace is less than Jensons in the same car? I remember him comfortably seeing off Jenson on track in a lesser car. I remember him all over the back of Alonso,


Sure. At one point I was tracking total time for Jenson and Lewis and it was remarkably close. They both had races finishing a good ways in front of the other. But if you'd like to go the anecdotal route Australia 2012 is a good example of a head to head dry fight between the two. Lewis had the edge in qualy for sure but there just wasn't much between them during the races. Comparing which of them secured the quicker race lap results in a 27-27 tie (barring a few races where one or the other was unable to set a time).

Your turn. Tell me how you know that "Kobayashi was very quick in qualifying"? Compared to who? His 2010 season he was out-qualified 11-8 by a combination of Pedro de la Rosa and Nick Heidfeld. Good solid F1 drivers both but neither a Q ace.

"seeing off Jenson in a lesser car" is another straw man. Was it a lesser car on the tyres it was on at that moment? I also remember him throwing away a chance at a win in that race against Alonso. Forgivable for a young driver but not exactly a sign of greatness either.

The point is that I'm just not convinced that Perez is a potential top-tier F1 driver. He might be, and since he seems like a nice kid I'm certainly not rooting against him. But the evidence for him being one so far is a couple of races where he had a tyre advantage because he didn't make Q3.

The evidence against him is that he wasn't that impressive in Q in GP2. All of his peers secured more poles (Hulkenberg 3, Grosjean 3, Maldanado 2, Senna 3, Petrov 2) at that level over a 2 year span. He was younger than all of those at the time so we have to cut him some slack, and maybe he's Jenson-esque in that he doesn't care so much about qualifying and keeps his focus on race setup, which would be nearly remarkable in a young driver in GP2.

Edit: bold for clarity

Edited by tkulla, 11 March 2013 - 21:38.


#297 BillBald

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 21:40

I think the general concern was that if he does this during a race weekend then as the car is now more difficult to work on, then he will burn through his available time without getting a reasonable gain or set-up... Ferrari took half a year to resolve this last year - perhaps McLaren can learn from this, or perhaps Button will suffer more than Perez who many are guessing didn't need so many set-up tweaks.


I think the important thing for both drivers is for the simulation to work well, so that they can arrive at each track with something close to an optimal setup.

From that point of view, it seems like a good idea for Jenson to try a lot of setup changes, the real-world result of those can then be tested against simulation. Maybe Checo just had less ideas about what might work, that's just as plausible as supposing that he doesn't need the car to be 'just so'.

Since I first heard that McLaren had gone for pullrod front, I've been expressing concern about the fact that setup changes would take longer, and simulation would likely be less good with an unfamiliar front end. So I'm not going to say you're wrong to think this, but when people make this an excuse for more tedious Button-bashing it starts to seem like they are trolling.



#298 GlenP

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 21:46

A really good sign with Perez (who is quite an unknown, I agree) is how fast he learns. All drivers at all levels should be learning all the time, but he is in a situation now where he needs to bring new tricks to the party - fine, nurse the tyres skilfully if that's the best option on the day, but in a McLaren it is just as likely to be better to go aggressive and try and win with track position and more stops - that takes a lot of mental ability to survive the pressure.

Edited by GlenP, 11 March 2013 - 21:47.


#299 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 22:49

Sure. At one point I was tracking total time for Jenson and Lewis and it was remarkably close. They both had races finishing a good ways in front of the other. But if you'd like to go the anecdotal route Australia 2012 is a good example of a head to head dry fight between the two. Lewis had the edge in qualy for sure but there just wasn't much between them during the races. Comparing which of them secured the quicker race lap results in a 27-27 tie (barring a few races where one or the other was unable to set a time).

Your turn. Tell me how you know that "Kobayashi was very quick in qualifying"? Compared to who? His 2010 season he was out-qualified 11-8 by a combination of Pedro de la Rosa and Nick Heidfeld. Good solid F1 drivers both but neither a Q ace.

"seeing off Jenson in a lesser car" is another straw man. Was it a lesser car on the tyres it was on at that moment? I also remember him throwing away a chance at a win in that race against Alonso. Forgivable for a young driver but not exactly a sign of greatness either.

The point is that I'm just not convinced that Perez is a potential top-tier F1 driver. He might be, and since he seems like a nice kid I'm certainly not rooting against him. But the evidence for him being one so far is a couple of races where he had a tyre advantage because he didn't make Q3.

The evidence against him is that he wasn't that impressive in Q in GP2. All of his peers secured more poles (Hulkenberg 3, Grosjean 3, Maldanado 2, Senna 3, Petrov 2) at that level over a 2 year span. He was younger than all of those at the time so we have to cut him some slack, and maybe he's Jenson-esque in that he doesn't care so much about qualifying and keeps his focus on race setup, which would be nearly remarkable in a young driver in GP2.

Edit: bold for clarity


Ok race pace calculations have to consider the fact that with pirellis the guy in front almost never has any need to rag the tyres. Therefore as Lewis was mostly in front in an identical car we must expect the overall times to be close and look evenly matched, we should therefore look for who was mostly infront and how many times one overtook the other or if they were equal in this respect. If one was mostly in front then we must understand that the other generally didnt have the pace to overtake. Then we look to grid position and therefore opportunity to overtake, I think we should conclude that Lewis overall had much better race pace. This is assuming your data has removed all the spikes caused by things not relevant to this metric.
The anecdote is fair. There are other examples that tell the other story but we are not saying who was faster once in a while etc but who was generally faster

Kobayashi was consistent in the Sauber in qualifying, no it doesnt look good loosing as a rookie to PDR but Heidfield and Trulli are different story. He was good enough to consistently get the Sauber in Q2/1 , even got podium quali in the dry if IIRC. This is not a guy who is bad at quali but ok I give you that one, he doesnt stamp perez with legendary status

seeing off Jenson = done it already, likely to be unfazed on track in same car, tyre etc irrelevant, more the kid in lower team vs star in fast car geddit? same as for Alonso, sure he spun, some say Ferrari caused this, all Im saying is the kid is not fazed by guys higher regarded by him.

Whatever happened in lower formula doesn't dictate what will happen when he takes to track in the Fastest car.

You have to admit that apart from the last races last year he has somehow stood out head and sholdiers above all the other rookies, bar maybe Hulk. He got the McLaren seat didnt he?

Lets see what happens in the races but I reckon we are going to see him step up to the plate and surprise many many

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#300 charly0418

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 22:55

The problem I see for Perez is that he has to be faster on Saturday than Button. If he's not it's not going to be pretty on the points table because I don't think he can match Jenson's race pace (which was the equal of Hamilton). The problem is that I don't see any evidence of super one-lap quickness from him. Edging Kobayashi in Q isn't exactly Senna evoking. And in the junior series' he had exactly 1 pole position in GP2 in 30 races (including the Asia series races) and 0 in 22 British F3 (premiere class) races.


What?! Perez last year was one of the drivers with the most overtakes of the season. He showed VERY good race pace (actually, thats all he showed)