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Button v Perez - 2013


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#3451 WitnessX

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:15

He did 2 laps in Q1 and 2 laps in Q2 so I don't think he had 2 new hards. He looked really competitive until few laps before his second pitstop and then his pace dropped like a rock and never really recovered.

I haven't seen the data yet or heard reports, but it looked like the classic balance change problem, Jensons car worked better in the second half of the race and Segio's on the first (due to fuel amount difference). During Q1 it was obvious that  Jenson was very good on low fuel+Hard tyres.

 

Sergio was doing very well the first half and unfortunately he left an open door for Rosberg which he duly went for and Sergio defended it "robustly". A touch more "spatial awareness" and he would have been ok.

 

Good first stint by Sergio. Impressive Last stint by Jenson, overtaking both FI and Massa. Job done.

 

Edit: ok.. so front wing set false.


Edited by WitnessX, 13 October 2013 - 09:29.


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#3452 coppilcus

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:37

Rosberg said on spanish: 'Sergio y mi equipo un poco loco hoy, peligrosa maniobra en pit lane y frenada moviendose hacia mi aleron delantero'...

Something like tatanka buffalo tatanka but really meant: 'A crazy race from my team and Sergio, dangerous release on the pit stop and a deserved drive through penalty for it, and a crazy move by Sergio on the braking zone almost damaging my front wing'

Dumb move by Perez on the last stint of the race... He got screwed on both of his pit stops though, Jenson only on one and was able to keep it together for a well deserved ninth after an awful start and morbid first stint.

As a McLaren fan can't wait for this season to end... Not even luck is on our side.

#3453 spacekid

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:41

Sergio made good use of his tyres at the start. I actually thought he was going to finish ahead of Button for a while there, but it didn't work out for him.

 

Button just looks more 'together' during the races to me. With Sergio there always seems to be 'something'.

 

Still, Grosjean demonstrated today that if given time drivers can get it together and start performing more consistently. I still have my reservations that McLaren is not the place for Sergio to be developing race craft - that sort of thing should have been sorted before he got the seat, but here he is. I'm still in 2 minds as to whether he's worth another year or not.



#3454 Buttoneer

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:55

I'm really struggling to understand how throughout the races Sergio can look like he's beating Jenson and then come the chequered flag Jenson is in the points and Sergio is miles back.

He does have a habit of doing this with teammates.  Barrichello in 2009 had a really hard time accepting it.



#3455 Lights

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:18

So I think both drivers had a pretty poor race. Top 6 was out of the question but they should have filled in the spots behind. 

 

However, Jenson lost out in T1 behind a limping Hamilton and both drivers had some bad pit stops as well.

 

But Jenson mainly killed his race by a setup error while Sergio did so by his lack of spatial awareness.

 

What I really don't understand is Jenson's reaction:

 

"That was my fault: on the lap-to-grid, it felt like I had too much front-end, so I took some wing out of the car. It was the wrong thing to do – it left me with too much understeer, and I kept locking up the fronts, which destroyed the front tyres. For the third set, we added some front-wing, and the balance came back to me."

 

Why not change it at the first pit stop?


Edited by Lights, 13 October 2013 - 10:18.


#3456 WitnessX

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:27

So I think both drivers had a pretty poor race. Top 6 was out of the question but they should have filled in the spots behind. 

 

However, Jenson lost out in T1 behind a limping Hamilton and both drivers had some bad pit stops as well.

 

But Jenson mainly killed his race by a setup error while Sergio did so by his lack of spatial awareness.

 

What I really don't understand is Jenson's reaction:

 

"That was my fault: on the lap-to-grid, it felt like I had too much front-end, so I took some wing out of the car. It was the wrong thing to do – it left me with too much understeer, and I kept locking up the fronts, which destroyed the front tyres. For the third set, we added some front-wing, and the balance came back to me."

 

Why not change it at the first pit stop?

 

Just guessing.. He  changed from mediums to hards and perhaps the hard tyres require less front, or.. he may have thought that there was a problem with that particular set (he qualified on) because his balance before the race was done on a different set.


Edited by WitnessX, 13 October 2013 - 10:28.


#3457 Treads

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:48

Consider how much time he lost in first two stints, that change cost Mac a lot. Real shame. Great entertainment in the end though!
Perez did well most of the race and deserved some points, shame about the move that lead to the puncture.
Fun race but disappointing that points were left on the table. That is the frustrating thing about JB sometimes is the stints when he just goes missing. If only he had been fast like that the whole race, not slower on a 3 stopper than the 2 stoppers for first 25 laps, 6 or 7 place was on. So frustrating! But also encouraging signs as car is looking decentish.

#3458 Treads

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:51

So I think both drivers had a pretty poor race. Top 6 was out of the question but they should have filled in the spots behind.

However, Jenson lost out in T1 behind a limping Hamilton and both drivers had some bad pit stops as well.

But Jenson mainly killed his race by a setup error while Sergio did so by his lack of spatial awareness.

What I really don't understand is Jenson's reaction:

"That was my fault: on the lap-to-grid, it felt like I had too much front-end, so I took some wing out of the car. It was the wrong thing to do – it left me with too much understeer, and I kept locking up the fronts, which destroyed the front tyres. For the third set, we added some front-wing, and the balance came back to me."

Why not change it at the first pit stop?


What x said, he probable thought hard tyres would balance it.
You don't think p6 was on? Ok on reflection that would be too much to ask. But P7/8 very achievable.

#3459 Lights

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:55

Ok that's a plausible explanation. Still a shame though. Jenson once again overthinking things.



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#3460 ermo

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:05

Re. Jenson's front wing setup mistake: I can't help but wonder if not one of the other reasons JB won the WDC 2009 (i.e. apart from the obvious blown diffuser advantage) was that he could change the balance of his car on the fly with the adjustable front wing flap to help overcome balance issues?

 

He's one of the 'fiddliest' drivers on the grid, after all...

 

And Sergio? Biologically speaking, his brain isn't fully matured yet.  Those of you who are males past 30 can probably look back at yourself and other males you know and appreciate that something changed in your (and their) approach to life once you turned 25+.  Sergio is 23, is under pressure and when pushed, his instinct is to fight hard to the point of being a bit of a bully.  Fair enough.  If he hasn't improved in that aspect 2 to 3 years from now, however...

 

Asked in a recent fan QA session whether he felt he could be more aggressive in his approach to racing, JB made it abundantly clear that he has chosen to deliberately temper his competitive instinct in the heat of battle, because he has come to the conclusion that it yields bigger rewards in the points table come season's end.



#3461 Force Ten

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:17

Yeah, 6th for Button would have meant that he would have had to find more than half a minute in the race somewhere. I don't think it just was anywhere to be found today, even with the setup issues. Though Rosberg Gutierrez definitely would have been up for grabs.



#3462 Lights

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:53

And Sergio? Biologically speaking, his brain isn't fully matured yet.  Those of you who are males past 30 can probably look back at yourself and other males you know and appreciate that something changed in your (and their) approach to life once you turned 25+.  Sergio is 23, is under pressure and when pushed, his instinct is to fight hard to the point of being a bit of a bully.  Fair enough.  If he hasn't improved in that aspect 2 to 3 years from now, however...

That's not the problem though. If he made these errors because he was being a bit of a bully, I'd be more understanding. But he's made this mistake so many times this season that I've lost count. And not once did he look at himself and say that he was being too aggressive or that he took a risk which didn't pay of. No. Each time it's shoved under the carpet with the attached label 'bad luck'. While it's the main problem area he should work on if he wants to become a more successful racer.



#3463 nosecone

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:59

That's not the problem though. If he made these errors because he was being a bit of a bully, I'd be more understanding. But he's made this mistake so many times this season that I've lost count. And not once did he look at himself and say that he was being too aggressive or that he took a risk which didn't pay of. No. Each time it's shoved under the carpet with the attached label 'bad luck'. While it's the main problem area he should work on if he wants to become a more successful racer.

 

Indeed he should accept the blame. He had the speed to outrace Button (more or less because of JBs setup mistake), but then he again made a simple mistake. This incident remembered me at the incident in Spa where he send another driver wide. If he's side by side with another driver he ofthen does not leave enough room



#3464 Force Ten

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 12:04

Indeed he should accept the blame. He had the speed to outrace Button (more or less because of JBs setup mistake)

No, he really didn't. From half the race on he was much much slower than Button. He was being passed by Nico because he was very very slow already and he would have had to go on these tyres to the end.



#3465 DrF

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 12:21

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/110611

 

Yet another voice to join the chorus of drivers who Perez has annoyed.



#3466 Treads

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 12:56

No, he really didn't. From half the race on he was much much slower than Button. He was being passed by Nico because he was very very slow already and he would have had to go on these tyres to the end.


Don't disagree but he was on a two stopper right, hence would naturally be slower in that phase?

#3467 Treads

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 12:58

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/110611

Yet another voice to join the chorus of drivers who Perez has annoyed.


Well look on the bright side, Grosjean pissed everyone off and was a positive liability last year. Now he looks like hot property. Trouble is, it was always clear Grosjean was fast, just foolhardy; Perez doesn't look that fast and is still foolhardy.

#3468 Force Ten

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 13:00

Don't disagree but he was on a two stopper right, hence would naturally be slower in that phase?

Yeah, but he was on a slower pace that was bound to get even slower as his tyres got older. He didn't look particulary good at the end of any of his stints - seemed to like to burn all the rubber off early at stints. 



#3469 nosecone

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 13:06

If i remember correctly at the start it was Button who couldn't keep the pace off the others and thus RAI passed him. In the first 24 laps Perez was in 18 laps faster than Button. Then perez stuck in the group with the Ferrari and lost time with the unsafe release incident. And then once again a silly mistake.

 

2nd race half:

Agreed here JB was clearly faster! According to the interview on the autosport website he madr a wrong frontwing adjustment for the first 2 stints.. this could explain him beeing slower than perez in the first half

 

Lap times Perez v Button:

http://en.mclarenf-1...on#.UlqaLxCzIzh


Edited by nosecone, 13 October 2013 - 14:03.


#3470 Dalton007

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 13:32

Gary Anderson, on the BBC, revealed, by his own calculations, that Jenson is quicker than Sergio by an average of 0.164 so far this season. Not much in it at all. 



#3471 DanardiF1

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 13:34

Gary Anderson, on the BBC, revealed, by his own calculations, that Jenson is quicker than Sergio by an average of 0.164 so far this season. Not much in it at all. 

 

And yet, over 15 races, that's equalled a 37 point gap between the pair.



#3472 Force Ten

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 13:50

2nd race half:

Agreed here JB was clearly faster! According to the interview on the autosport site he had a wrong frontwing adjustment made for the first 2 stints.. this could explain him beeing outraced by perez in the first half

 

Yeah, it's not actually nitpicking, there is much to be said for precise usage of language as loose usage of it can, besides being incorrect, be also somewhat inflammatory or it could give a bat and a ball to certain people that are of the opinion that McLaren Number One driver should have outperformed Lotus Number two driver and as such the only acceptable position for Button in this race would have been third, but instead he got outraced by Perez for large part of the race. Don't believe? Read the last three pages of the thread. It is not 'that' trivial a nitpick :)

 

There is no such thing as "outraced in the first half of race". You might aswell say then that Button was outraced by Peres on lap 14 or Perez was outraced by Button at lap 41. What is more representative of the facts is that Perez had a better start and appeared much faster at the early part of the race but was still - one might say comprehensively - outraced by his more experienced teammate.



#3473 GlenP

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 13:58

Button now closing on three-times the points of Perez.

 

Far too close, obviously! I want to know why a driver of Button's status hasn't caused his team mate to have  negative points tally!  :drunk:



#3474 BillBald

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 14:46

Gary Anderson, on the BBC, revealed, by his own calculations, that Jenson is quicker than Sergio by an average of 0.164 so far this season. Not much in it at all. 

 

Where was that, in the race coverage, the forum?



#3475 Nemo1965

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 14:49

Buttons ability to turn it around during races is almost comical. When he pitted at lap 9 and later was overtaken by Perez, I thought: surely this race he wont' be... and then at the finish... who's ahead? Button in front of Perez...

 

He is doing more than avoiding the mistakes Perez makes. He is also able to minimize his own mistakes (like the front wing thingie) and bad luck.



#3476 Treads

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 15:24

Where was that, in the race coverage, the forum?


It was before the race, in the preamble. He showed the whole field. Wasn't explained very well how he got there - e.g. if it was in race or just quali. It seemed about average gap.

#3477 bub

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 17:01

Perez looked better for the most part but made a costly mistake so this one goes to Button.



#3478 coppilcus

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 17:41

If i remember correctly at the start it was Button who couldn't keep the pace off the others and thus RAI passed him. In the first 24 laps Perez was in 18 laps faster than Button. Then perez stuck in the group with the Ferrari and lost time with the unsafe release incident. And then once again a silly mistake.
 
2nd race half:
Agreed here JB was clearly faster! According to the interview on the autosport website he madr a wrong frontwing adjustment for the first 2 stints.. this could explain him beeing slower than perez in the first half
 
Lap times Perez v Button:
http://en.mclarenf-1...on#.UlqaLxCzIzh


Jb was only faster at the last stint...

#3479 Force Ten

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 18:22

Jb was only faster at the last stint...

Yes... except... no.

 

Before Button's second pitstop the gap was 3 seconds in favor of Perez. Before Button's third stop the gap was 9 seconds in favor of Button. So, Perez really only was faster than Button for little bit less than first half of the race. Yes an argument can be made that he was on a 2 stop strategy, but he was very slow on the end of his 18 lap second stint and his second stint would have had to last for 23 laps. Massa tried it and was something like 4 seconds a lap slower in the end than Button.

 

Basic math says that one simply can't be faster than the other for majority of the race and still finish more than 30 seconds later :)


Edited by Force Ten, 13 October 2013 - 18:23.


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#3480 coppilcus

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 20:20

Yes... except... no.

Before Button's second pitstop the gap was 3 seconds in favor of Perez. Before Button's third stop the gap was 9 seconds in favor of Button. So, Perez really only was faster than Button for little bit less than first half of the race. Yes an argument can be made that he was on a 2 stop strategy, but he was very slow on the end of his 18 lap second stint and his second stint would have had to last for 23 laps. Massa tried it and was something like 4 seconds a lap slower in the end than Button.

Basic math says that one simply can't be faster than the other for majority of the race and still finish more than 30 seconds later :)

Lap times as posted in the comparison show that Perez was faster on the first two thirds of the race... Not overall race time at the finish line, of course, because Perez got screwed on both of his pit stops (getting him even behind Maldonado on both of them) and had the puncture on the incident with Rosberg, yes, jb also had a messed up pit stop by the team, but not both and a puncture.

That's even accepted as an error by Jenson, everyone on this thread should teach the Brit some maths. It could not have nothing to do with Perez racecraft or pace, but he was faster than jb on two thirds of the race.

Edited by coppilcus, 13 October 2013 - 20:22.


#3481 trogggy

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 20:33

Lap times as posted in the comparison show that Perez was faster on the first two thirds of the race...

What exactly do you mean by 'faster'?

Average speed?  That would be when Button overtook?

Faster laps?  Looking at the times Button was faster from lap 20. 

Something else?

 

Either way it was uninspiring from both - Button's explained why (bad choice on his part), Perez has put it down to bad luck.  Again.



#3482 DanardiF1

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 20:35

It's ironic that Perez will keep having 'bad luck' until he realises he's not having 'bad luck'...

 

But Jenson as usual is upfront in admitting errors and still manages to rescue some points out of seemingly nothing... just like Korea last week. Not a vintage performance by any means but solid driving for the most part by JB.


Edited by DanardiF1, 13 October 2013 - 20:36.


#3483 Treads

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 20:41

Lap times as posted in the comparison show that Perez was faster on the first two thirds of the race... Not overall race time at the finish line, of course, because Perez got screwed on both of his pit stops (getting him even behind Maldonado on both of them) and had the puncture on the incident with Rosberg, yes, jb also had a messed up pit stop by the team, but not both and a puncture.

That's even accepted as an error by Jenson, everyone on this thread should teach the Brit some maths. It could not have nothing to do with Perez racecraft or pace, but he was faster than jb on two thirds of the race.


Copp,this two thirds claim is factually incorrect (i.e. bullshit?) I look at
en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=908&graf=3&dr1=Sergio%20Perez&dr2=Jenson%20Button#.UlsCqTxBvbW
And see quite clearly jb being faster from lap 25 of 52. To be precise, faster in 18 of 28 laps; 2 drawn; Perez faster in 8.
Maldonado pitstop etc may have impacted times, but times show JB as faster from lap 25.

#3484 BillBald

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:28

Copp,this two thirds claim is factually incorrect (i.e. bullshit?) I look at
en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=908&graf=3&dr1=Sergio%20Perez&dr2=Jenson%20Button#.UlsCqTxBvbW
And see quite clearly jb being faster from lap 25 of 52. To be precise, faster in 18 of 28 laps; 2 drawn; Perez faster in 8.
Maldonado pitstop etc may have impacted times, but times show JB as faster from lap 25.

 

It's actually a good illustration of how much difference it makes to Jenson when he gets the setup spot-on.

 

After his 2nd pit stop, he is well over a second a lap faster than Checo until Checo takes new tyres 7 laps later. Checo is then a second faster than Jenson for just a single lap. After that their pace is similar, with Jenson on the older tyres.

 

It looks like Checo may have had more traffic at some points of the race, but I'm not sure if that accounts for all the difference.



#3485 MattPete

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 02:04

 

But Jenson mainly killed his race by a setup error while Sergio did so by his lack of spatial awareness.

 

 

 

My fantasy is that Honda replaces Perez with Kamui Kobayashi.  To me, the big difference between their performance wasn't speed, but that Kamui had fantastic spatial awareness and could pull off moves that few could. Perez at times seemed to get frustrated and *tried* to pull-off Kobayashi-style moves, without understand what made those moves successful.  More often than not, the end result was contact (but not nearly as often as a Maldonado or a 2012 vintage Grosjean).



#3486 ElDictatore

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 05:11

Copp,this two thirds claim is factually incorrect (i.e. bullshit?) I look at
en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=908&graf=3&dr1=Sergio%20Perez&dr2=Jenson%20Button#.UlsCqTxBvbW
And see quite clearly jb being faster from lap 25 of 52. To be precise, faster in 18 of 28 laps; 2 drawn; Perez faster in 8.
Maldonado pitstop etc may have impacted times, but times show JB as faster from lap 25.

 

Not totally sure but I think that's also down to the ricciardo train to some degree. That said, this race goes to Jenson. Wished we had seens the pace from the last stint all way through. 



#3487 Rinehart

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 10:49

This gets better and better;

It really doesn't.

I gave you a chance to prove your not a troll (post 3351) and you didn't take it.

 

To close off your silly argument that Button should be doing more:

 

Button has already proven that if McLaren gives him a car capable of fighting for wins, he can win (in the last 3 years he won 8 times to Hamilton's 10). Furthermore Button has already proven that if McLaren gives him a car capable of fighting for podiums, he can take podiums (in the last 3 years he finished on the podium 25 times to Hamiltons 22). 

 

It therefore stands to reason to anybody but you, it would seem, that if the car was capable of anything more than low points scoring positions ON MERIT, Button would be delivering it. 



#3488 BillBald

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 14:58

Not totally sure but I think that's also down to the ricciardo train to some degree. That said, this race goes to Jenson. Wished we had seens the pace from the last stint all way through. 

 

The only time Checo was close behind Ric was in the final stint. And that was because Ric overtook him, which was not shown on screen. They both then had to pass the Williams cars, so there was a hold-up from that.

 

Checo had earlier spent a few laps close behind Gutierrez, so Jenson did have the better of the traffic. In the final stint, Jenson had to pass a few cars. Of course he had a tyre advantage, but then so did Checo, unless there was something wrong with his last set of tyres.



#3489 Lights

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 15:09

The only time Checo was close behind Ric was in the final stint. And that was because Ric overtook him, which was not shown on screen. They both then had to pass the Williams cars, so there was a hold-up from that.

 

Checo had earlier spent a few laps close behind Gutierrez, so Jenson did have the better of the traffic. In the final stint, Jenson had to pass a few cars. Of course he had a tyre advantage, but then so did Checo, unless there was something wrong with his last set of tyres.

If I remember it right, Sergio was also stuck in a train of a few laps led by Ricciardo, though Sergio was the last driver to get on board.



#3490 Fox1

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 16:13

It really doesn't.

I gave you a chance to prove your not a troll (post 3351) and you didn't take it.

 

To close off your silly argument that Button should be doing more:

 

Button has already proven that if McLaren gives him a car capable of fighting for wins, he can win (in the last 3 years he won 8 times to Hamilton's 10). Furthermore Button has already proven that if McLaren gives him a car capable of fighting for podiums, he can take podiums (in the last 3 years he finished on the podium 25 times to Hamiltons 22). 

 

It therefore stands to reason to anybody but you, it would seem, that if the car was capable of anything more than low points scoring positions ON MERIT, Button would be delivering it. 

 

Perez was never highly rated before joining McLaren and Jenson is the incumbent driver who had input into the design of this year's chassis; he SHOULD be beating Perez. Perez has had pace on JB many times this year but he’s made mental errors that negated the results he should have had. When Perez was first announced as a Macca driver, I could be mistaken, but I believe the next point he scored was actually while driving a McLaren. That's what JB (the most experienced driver on the grid) is up against as a teammate.

 

 

 

I may be wrong, but I think Tokyo is trying to point out that while it's clear that JB is beating Perez, he is far from being a great performance reference. I know some here are ready to shower Jenson with praise for his great performance this year, but looking at the season thus far in its totality, I find the results shockingly poor given his stature and McLaren's resources.


Edited by Fox1, 14 October 2013 - 16:15.


#3491 trogggy

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 16:20

Perez was never highly rated before joining McLaren and Jenson is the incumbent driver who had input into the design of this year's chassis; he SHOULD be beating Perez. Perez has had pace on JB many times this year but he’s made mental errors that negated the results he should have had. When Perez was first announced as a Macca driver, I could be mistaken, but I believe the next point he scored was actually while driving a McLaren. That's what JB (the most experienced driver on the grid) is up against as a teammate.

 

 

 

I may be wrong, but I think Tokyo is trying to point out that while it's clear that JB is beating Perez, he is far from being a great performance reference. I know some here are ready to shower Jenson with praise for his great performance this year, but looking at the season thus far in its totality, I find the results shockingly poor given his stature and McLaren's resources.

Perez isn't a performance reference at all in this thread.  If you haven't worked that out yet you'll be as lost here as Tokyothingumajig, who can't decide whether Perez is a rough diamond en-route to a wdc or a ridiculously talentless hire.

 

Results this year are rubbish, yes.  Presumably you're here to say that another driver would be doing much better? Hmm?



#3492 Rinehart

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 16:24

Perez was never highly rated before joining McLaren and Jenson is the incumbent driver who had input into the design of this year's chassis; he SHOULD be beating Perez. Perez has had pace on JB many times this year but he’s made mental errors that negated the results he should have had. When Perez was first announced as a Macca driver, I could be mistaken, but I believe the next point he scored was actually while driving a McLaren. That's what JB (the most experienced driver on the grid) is up against as a teammate.[/size]
 
 [/size]
 
I may be wrong, but I think Tokyo is trying to point out that while it's clear that JB is beating Perez, he is far from being a great performance reference. I know some here are ready to shower Jenson with praise for his great performance this year, but looking at the season thus far in its totality, I find the results shockingly poor given his stature and McLaren's resources.[/size]


<face palm>

#3493 Treads

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 16:26

Perez was never highly rated before joining McLaren and Jenson is the incumbent driver who had input into the design of this year's chassis; he SHOULD be beating Perez. Perez has had pace on JB many times this year but he’s made mental errors that negated the results he should have had. When Perez was first announced as a Macca driver, I could be mistaken, but I believe the next point he scored was actually while driving a McLaren. That's what JB (the most experienced driver on the grid) is up against as a teammate.

 

 

 

I may be wrong, but I think Tokyo is trying to point out that while it's clear that JB is beating Perez, he is far from being a great performance reference. I know some here are ready to shower Jenson with praise for his great performance this year, but looking at the season thus far in its totality, I find the results shockingly poor given his stature and McLaren's resources.

 

I find the results shockingly poor, we all do, nonetheless without diverting the thread off topic I don't think we can attribute that to anything Jenson has done wrong this season. 

 

EDIT: Let us also agree that Mac didn't go out to sign a driver who was inferior to JB; they went out to sign the best package they could. And Perez has not performed as well as Button. If I had a choice between Perez and Fernando, I would pick Fernando. 


Edited by Treads, 14 October 2013 - 16:27.


#3494 Nemo1965

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 22:22

There's one aspect the critics of Button don't take into account: the incredible little difference in times between drivers of the same teams AND other teams and the incredible reliability of cars. You can't cruise and wait for the others to drop out. You have to best fast and at the right time. 

 

Think of it this way: if Button is only 0,164 seconds faster than Perez... the difference in points is not because of lack of speed of Sergio or the speed of Button. It is what Buttons does during races. The fact that Buttton ends up ahead of Perez every time and other drivers with about the same speed, ends up in the points all the time, despite the fact that he is not tons faster than his teammate or drivers of other teams, must show he is doing something very, very right in races. Not just decent, otherwise the other drivers of the midfield teams would kind of have a roulette: in this race driver A would score, the next race number B, then  number C. But it is not like that, is it? I think that if Button would drive the Williams for example, Williams would have had a lot of more points. And then people would still say that Button is underperforming...



#3495 sennafan24

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 23:17

Another quick comparison I thought of whilst scaling down this thread, 

 

If we are to critic Button for his efforts in a off-pace car in 2013, do we also critic Lewis in 2009 and Alonso in 2008-2009?

 

I have said this prior, it is hard for a established driver to look good in a mid-level/lower-level car, any time you put a former WDC in any established/well known F1 car the expectation will be that they can be fighting for a podium, its unfair but that is how it usually works, 

 

Yet Button on here at least is being praised by the vast majority, I have to say chaps it fill be with some optimism for us F1 fans that we can recognize the McLaren is off-pace and not demonize Button for it  :up:



#3496 Slartibartfast

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 23:47

I may be wrong, but I think Tokyo is trying to point out that while it's clear that JB is beating Perez, he is far from being a great performance reference. I know some here are ready to shower Jenson with praise for his great performance this year, but looking at the season thus far in its totality, I find the results shockingly poor given his stature and McLaren's resources.


I may be wrong, but I think that this thread is Button vs Perez, so McLaren's resources and the results of the McLaren drivers vs the drivers from other teams is irrelevant. Which is probably for the best, given what Fangio and Moss achieved with the resources available to Mercedes...

#3497 Lights

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 07:38

I know some here are ready to shower Jenson with praise for his great performance this year, but

 

The entire argument you're trying to make revolves around making this 'point', yet it fails because it just doesn't happen. Just look at the post-Suzuka comments for example.



#3498 GlenP

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:22

S.B.fast is totally correct - this is driver vs driver.

 

Getting on for treble the points of your team-mate is a fair beating, surely?



#3499 Rinehart

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 14:18

Rumours of a new £40m 3 year deal on the table for Button - not sure if this is 14-16 or 15-17?

 

Not sure where this leaves Perez, but I suspect thin ice.



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#3500 sopa

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 14:24

Somebody asked, how can Perez look like beating Button for half a race, yet finish far behind.

 

Reminds Alonso v Massa. Massa can often fight against Alonso for half a race, but at the finish Alonso was 4th and Massa 10th.

 

It is hard to keep up performance level for the whole duration of the race, 1.5 hours.